My essay as to why I think clones are necessary for future Smash Bros. insallments...

[DarkISDA]

Thank you for your feedback. However, I will tell you this regarding many of your character decisions. A lot of those characters are minor characters within their respective series (Waluigi, Krystal). As I said at the end of my essay, I think that Smash Bros. must look elsewhere for roster lifeblood. Minor characters from major series is not the way to go, neither is an overload on third-parties (though an increase aimed at iconic third-party characters that had lots of history on Nintendo consoles is something that could be in the cards). Either way, I think most of the sensible characters from veteran series (series that already have at least one playable character within Smash Bros.) haver already been added to Brawl. The only two major stars from veteran series that have not been added are K. Rool and Ridley (and to a lesser extent Paper Mario or Bowser Jr.).

You've got a point there, it's an important part of your essay that I forgot to take part of what would be cool as character in smash 4, and for that, I am sorry. And I agree with you saying Black Shadow looks like Ganondorf and all. It's a perspective of view I didn't see. However, if they would put Black Shadow instead, it's like saying Ganondorf will disappear from the series, which would not do any good. Ganondorf is an important Icon in the Zelda series, unless they give him a new moveset, that is. And for the Ridley matters, I know they can resize and everything... but THAT much? That would just feel awkward and would not fit that well in the battlefield. Besides, we don't see Ridley walk that much in Metroid games, it's mostly flying in screen trying to ram you. It would feel weird to make him walk, unless they intend on making it 100% flying a bit above the ground, like 1 inch, that could be reasonable, or something. But it is true that besides him, I don't see anything from the Metroid series coming for this, there's not a huge load of characters fit for this. Sure the hunters from Metroid Prime 3 and Hunters could be in, these are the only thing fitting from Metroid.

 

[ChronoBound]

You've got a point there, it's an important part of your essay that I forgot to take part of what would be cool as character in smash 4, and for that, I am sorry. And I agree with you saying Black Shadow looks like Ganondorf and all. It's a perspective of view I didn't see. However, if they would put Black Shadow instead, it's like saying Ganondorf will disappear from the series, which would not do any good. Ganondorf is an important Icon in the Zelda series, unless they give him a new moveset, that is. And for the Ridley matters, I know they can resize and everything... but THAT much? That would just feel awkward and would not fit that well in the battlefield. Besides, we don't see Ridley walk that much in Metroid games, it's mostly flying in screen trying to ram you. It would feel weird to make him walk, unless they intend on making it 100% flying a bit above the ground, like 1 inch, that could be reasonable, or something. But it is true that besides him, I don't see anything from the Metroid series coming for this, there's not a huge load of characters fit for this. Sure the hunters from Metroid Prime 3 and Hunters could be in, these are the only thing fitting from Metroid.

Ridley is usually hunched over when he is on the ground (see Super Metroid, and his debut cutscene in Zero Mission). This would make Ridley roughly the same size as Donkey Kong or Bowser.

Also, I am not advocating for Ganondorf to be cut (that would be insane). Instead, I am saying that Black Shadow should be given Ganondorf's Melee/Brawl moveset, while Ganondorf should be given a totally original moveset.

 

[Red Arremer]

And for the Ridley matters, I know they can resize and everything... but THAT much? That would just feel awkward and would not fit that well in the battlefield.

Olimar originally is the size of a coin.

 

[DarkISDA]

Ridley is usually hunched over when he is on the ground (see Super Metroid, and his debut cutscene in Zero Mission). This would make Ridley roughly the same size as Donkey Kong or Bowser.

Haven't played those games in a long time, I'd have to check, but it seems more possible that way. Thank you for clearing me up on the Ridley matter (though I'm still not ''For'' him being in, just neutral).

Also, I am not advocating for Ganondorf to be cut (that would be insane). Instead, I am saying that Black Shadow should be given Ganondorf's Melee/Brawl moveset, while Ganondorf should be given a totally original moveset.

Agreed.

Olimar originally is the size of a coin.

And I never believed Olimar to be in until the day he was shown on the Dojo, but you got point: there are no finish line to possibilities.

 

[Red Arremer]

And I never believed Olimar to be in until the day he was shown on the Dojo, but you got point: there are no finish line to possibilities.

Pikachu normally is the size of a hamster.

 

[DarkISDA]

It's bigger than a coin and we actually saw them with Humans in TV shows/movies.

 

[Red Arremer]

Anime Pikachu =/= Game Pikachu

Also, direct Pokedex entry:
Height
1'04" (aka 0.4 m)

In the Smash games, Pikachu has almost the height of Mario.

 

[DarkISDA]

In any ways, I already saw your point with Olimar, I still wonder why you brought Pikachu in o_O

 

[Ice`]

I think back in the day what drew a lotta people to it was link just cuz of the success of the ocarina of time.

 

[Red Arremer]

In any ways, I already saw your point with Olimar, I still wonder why you brought Pikachu in o_O

Because Resizing already happened in Smash Bros. 64, the first installment.

 

[DKKountry]

Olimar originally is the size of a coin.

Beat me to it lol. I'm pretty passive about who gets in for the Smash rosters. I of course get excited about cool new people but I don't get bummed about the ones that are left out (with one exception). Personally, I'd like to see K. Rool and someone from F-Zero (my personal choice would be Pico but I know he doesn't have a shot in he11 with Goroh and Black Shadow as possibilities). One thing I am sad about is this: I'm a big fan of the Street Fighter series, and I think it would be very fitting to have a representative from the series (Akuma or Sagat preferably, but Ryu is the obvious shooo-in), however, if Capcom gets on board for the next Smash game, there isn't even the slightest possibility of a Street Fighter rep getting in with Mega Man standing in the way. Don't get me wrong, I like the blue bot, it's just sad that it's either one or the other.

Why replacing Wolf? He has been in every game except Adventures and was planned to be in the cancelled Star Fox 2.

Correction, he WAS in the cancelled Star Fox 2. I have the game :D

 

[DarkISDA]

But Pikachu isn't as huge as resizing than Olimar or Ridley, even though it already happened.

 

[Ice`]

Anime Pikachu =/= Game Pikachu

Also, direct Pokedex entry:
Height
1'04" (aka 0.4 m)

In the Smash games, Pikachu has almost the height of Mario.

LOL bustin out the pokedex, good stuff

 

[Red Arremer]

LOL bustin out the pokedex, good stuff

Sure. I always try to back up what I'm saying with actual information. =P

Correction, he WAS in the cancelled Star Fox 2. I have the game :D

Me too, but that's not a real game, it's a Beta version, lol

 

[The Max is Back]

The only place the roster can go is up!

 

[ChronoBound]

The only place the roster can go is up!

Ah, not necessarily. There have been several fighting game series that experienced a decrease in roster number in later installments.

 

[DKKountry]

Me too, but that's not a real game, it's a Beta version, lol

lol good s**t dude.

Oh and in reference to Pokedex stuff, here's an entry on Charizard from Sapphire:
"CHARIZARD flies around the sky in search of powerful opponents. It breathes fire of such great heat that it melts anything. However, it never turns its fiery breath on any opponent weaker than itself."

lol, yeah right, I've seen him use flamethrower on low-tier Falcon many a time haha.

 

[SmashChu]

Ah, not necessarily. There have been several fighting game series that experienced a decrease in roster number in later installments.

Doesn't mean Smash will, especially as almost everyone wants more, not less.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

By what logic is Snake the least deserving character to get into Smash? If you look at his game series and popularity, it surpasses Nintendo's franchises except for Mario and Zelda.

Anyway, no one minded Bowser being resized for Smash because Nintendo has never been consistent with his size. Resizing Ridley will, make him stick out because Nintendo has been consistent with his size.

 

[Red Arremer]

Anyway, no one minded Bowser being resized for Smash because Nintendo has never been consistent with his size. Resizing Ridley will, make him stick out because Nintendo has been consistent with his size.

Then I want you to look at the very first appearance of Ridley:

He's roughly bigger than Samus.

Also, I just say: Olimar, ROB, Pikachu, Lucario, PT Pokemon, Jigglypuff...

 

[Dream Chaser]

More Metroid, more F-zero, less snake, less final smashes, less suitless samus and moveset revision for both Samus and Ganon.
Samus is seen as a slow, chunky and clunky character with a spirit bomb for a "beam". I wonder if sakurai has ever played a metroid game....
Ganon is still captain falcon (which is itself madeup), will we ever see Ganon fight anything like Ganon?

I was surprised about no Ridley and Krystal.... and disappointed too.

 

[flyinfilipino]

Doesn't mean Smash will, especially as almost everyone wants more, not less.

Exactly; look what happened when characters got cut for Brawl and how some people reacted...and if the roster size would decrease for SSB4, then more characters would have to be cut.

More, not less, for Smash Bros.

By what logic is Snake the least deserving character to get into Smash? If you look at his game series and popularity, it surpasses Nintendo's franchises except for Mario and Zelda.

I dunno about "least deserving", but it's pretty common knowledge that the Metal Gear franchise only had its beginnings on a Nintendo console and has had little else to do with Nintendo since then.


This discussion really belongs in the SSB4 thread (it's the same thing) and not in GBD.

 

[thekingsdinner666]

This discussion really belongs in the SSB4 thread (it's the same thing) and not in GBD.

No it doesn't. Lots of responses always lead up to things like this. Get used to it.
The reason as to why they added Snake beats me, probably to get some variety, which didn't work so well.

 

[flyinfilipino]

No it doesn't. Lots of responses always lead up to things like this. Get used to it.
The reason as to why they added Snake beats me, probably to get some variety, which didn't work so well.

If speculating about what we will see/what we want to see in SSB4 doesn't constitute SSB4 discussion (which mods have said should be restricted to the thread), I don't know what does.

Snake was added because Hideo Kojima wanted him to be in, and Sakurai obliged. What exactly do you mean by "didn't work so well"?

 

[thekingsdinner666]

I mean lots of people think he's a waste to the game and that it's pathetic that they added him.

 

[flyinfilipino]

I mean lots of people think he's a waste to the game and that it's pathetic that they added him.

Snake hails from a series that's highly acclaimed, but not all that well-known to the casual gamer. I don't see much hate going around, though. I can't decipher how anyone could think it's "pathetic" that they added him (if it's because some other character didn't make it instead, then you can just apply that to any character that did make it, not just Snake).

 

[ChronoBound]

Snake hails from a series that's highly acclaimed, but not all that well-known to the casual gamer. I don't see much hate going around, though. I can't decipher how anyone could think it's "pathetic" that they added him (if it's because some other character didn't make it instead, then you can just apply that to any character that did make it, not just Snake).

Snake is also dead in his own series, and won't be coming back, at least according to Kojima. Also, Metal Gear nis basically identified with competitor consoles.

Finally, if you can't accept that the possibility that Smash Bros.'s roster will eventually decrease (as it has with many other fighting series), then you are going to be in for a rude awakening. Also, stop with **** myth thart Metal Gear had it beginnings on Nintendo. Metal Gear began on the MSX2. Metal Gear was then ported to the NES against Kojima's will. Kojima was so embarrassed by the port of Metal Gear on the NES, that they decided to make Metal Gear 2 for the MSX2.

 

[Veng]

Snake was originally Nintendo wasn't he?

But I do find it kind of weird that they put Snake in since hes PS3 material, this would come from me before I knew his up tilt longer-than-ike-forward-smash-range attack would **** in this game.

But also I don't necessarily find it bad, hes obviously a lot of fun to play as, but they could of added some different Nintendo characters instead.

On topic.... The one thing Sakurai has failed at miserably is twins. Both Pichu and Lucas fail miserably and they happen to be the twins in SSBM/B, they just waste space. Trying to think of any other twins that fail but I would have to look at the roster.

 

[flyinfilipino]

Finally, if you can't accept that the possibility that Smash Bros.'s roster will eventually decrease (as it has with many other fighting series), then you are going to be in for a rude awakening.

What? Where's the evidence/thought process leading to this sudden conclusion?

EDIT: Also, jeez, no need to be so rude about this stuff. ****!

 

[Veng]

Snake is also dead in his own series, and won't be coming back, at least according to Kojima. Also, Metal Gear nis basically identified with competitor consoles.

Finally, if you can't accept that the possibility that Smash Bros.'s roster will eventually decrease (as it has with many other fighting series), then you are going to be in for a rude awakening.

Why would the roster decrease? that makes absolutely no sense. If anything it would stay the same, but not decrease. Have you ever seen a computers specs decrease over time that they have been made? or internet speed?

 

[Lithexive]

The Best rooster has always been the first in my opinion, Shame alot of the characters back then have been Nerfed on Brawl. It had a good lineup, the main characters from some of the best series out there.

 

[ChronoBound]

What? Where's the evidence/thought process leading to this sudden conclusion?

EDIT: Also, jeez, no need to be so rude about this stuff. ****!

With each subsequent console generation it becomes increasingly complex to add content. For example, it will be much more difficult to program 35 characters on a next-generation console than a last generation console due to complexity of hardware and engine. If you can't realize this, then you are going to be crying your eyes out when it does happen, which it will.

Why would the roster decrease? that makes absolutely no sense. If anything it would stay the same, but not decrease. Have you ever seen a computers specs decrease over time that they have been made? or internet speed?

See what I wrote above.

 

[Veng]

With each subsequent console generation it becomes increasingly complex to add content. For example, it will be much more difficult to program 35 characters on a next-generation console than a last generation console due to complexity of hardware and engine. If you can't realize this, then you are going to be crying your eyes out when it does happen, which it will.



See what I wrote above.

Except it wont happen, it will just take longer to make the game.

Your idea is dumb.

 

[flyinfilipino]

With each subsequent console generation it becomes increasingly complex to add content. For example, it will be much more difficult to program 35 characters on a next-generation console than a last generation console due to complexity of hardware and engine. If you can't realize this, then you are going to be crying your eyes out when it does happen, which it will.

Right; because with each subsequent release of a Smash Bros. title (which have all been on different consoles), the number of characters hasn't increased.

Seriously, that's just theory/speculation coming "out of the ***", and there's no need to be so rude and adamant about something that you and everyone else knows is just speculation.

For the record, it could happen, but to say that it will just doesn't make sense.

 

[Veng]

Right; because with each subsequent release of a Smash Bros. title (which have all been on different consoles), the number of characters hasn't increased.

Seriously, that's just theory/speculation coming "out of the ***", and there's no need to be so rude and adamant about something that you and everyone else knows is just speculation.

Lmao.

Yes, SSBB definitely has less characters then Smash64!

like i said his idea was dumb.

 

[ChronoBound]

Except it wont happen, it will just take longer to make the game.

Your idea is dumb.

No its not dumb. It will happen. Nintendo did not even give Sakurai enough time to put everything he wanted to place in Brawl (the same goes for Melee). Nintendo usually has a cap for how long development can go on for a game. Nintendo has no qualm about shutting down projects that have been going on for more than three years (see Mother 3 for the Nintendo 64). They would opt for a smaller roster that would take a quicker amount of time to develop, than a massive roster that would take several additional years to make, especially if it wouldn't even have an impace on sales (casuals do not care about the number of characters).

 

[flyinfilipino]

No its not dumb. It will happen. Nintendo did not even give Sakurai enough time to put everything he wanted to place in Brawl (the same goes for Melee). Nintendo usually has a cap for how long development can go on for a game. Nintendo has no qualm about shutting down projects that have been going on for more than three years (see Mother 3 for the Nintendo 64). They would opt for a smaller roster that would take a quicker amount of time to develop, than a massive roster that would take several additional years to make, especially if it wouldn't even have an impace on sales (casuals do not care about the number of characters).

How does this guarantee that the roster will decrease again? Where's the evidence that Nintendo was the one controlling the time restraints on Brawl? Isn't the scope of Smash Bros. games bigger than that of Mother games, and don't you think Nintendo acknowledges that? How is this not speculation?

 

[Red Arremer]

Please, before putting out speculations about the character roster's size, keep in mind that the majority of the work on Brawl has been the Subspace Emissary.

 

[ChronoBound]

How does this guarantee that the roster will decrease again? Where's the evidence that Nintendo was the one controlling the time restraints on Brawl? Isn't the scope of Smash Bros. games bigger than that of Mother games, and don't you think Nintendo acknowledges that? How is this not speculation?

It is very, very likely it will happen. Few fighting games have gone beyond the 50 character mark. Unless you want a horrible unbalanced mess of a game, that makes Brawl look like Street Fighter 3. Smash 4 will most likely have more characters than Brawl, however, I cannot say the same for Smash 5 (which might have less or the same as Smash 4).

 

[flyinfilipino]

It is very, very likely it will happen. Few fighting games have gone beyond the 50 character mark. Unless you want a horrible unbalanced mess of a game, that makes Brawl look like Street Fighter 3. Smash 4 will most likely have more characters than Brawl, however, I cannot say the same for Smash 5.

Alright, you went from "definite" to "very, very likely". That's good.

Also, there's still the possibility that Sakurai could get some help in the playtesting/research/balancing department.

And you're right, you can't say anything about SSB5 because...it's at least a decade away.