The_NZA
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Apr 7, 2007
- Messages
- 1,979
The main thing you want to look out for with high fairs is that, at the right angle, he should be able to uair you.
-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
MU Thread v2 | PM 3.5 Ness Matchup Discussion |
- Thread starter Bryonato
- Start date
fAtomsk
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Mar 15, 2014
- Messages
- 19
A little background. I've been playing Ness since N64, although only locally and not exclusively. My little brother is the best smash player I've ever played, and he might say the same about me, although he is slightly better. We play PM all the time, and Captain Falcon is one of his main characters in it. That, and the fact that he's been playing against me / Ness for, like, 2 decades makes this an insanely hard match up for me. So, what I think about the MU.
Neutral: His dash dance combined with his speed and air priority means Captain Falcon is constantly representing a threat and baiting you to make a mistake. Your reactions must be very tight, and you need to know your options well if you don't want to taste the wheel of pain. Many of your ground moves are non-options as throwing them out is going to gain you a drive by dair, and only that if you're lucky. As has been said, your PKF spacing game is very important here, try not to throw out grounded ones unless you know they'll hit. What you really want to land on Falcon is a throw, but many of his attacks (all his aerials) are going to push you far enough that a shield grab is unlikely, if spaced well, or have him end up far enough behind you so as to be unpunishable. That, and CF wants very badly to grab you. A good falcon can land a single grab, and start a chain of down throws, Nairs and gentlemans to carry you across the stage and end the whole thing with a throw into knee attempt. I would not DD much, as it feels too slow in the MU and easily punished. Nor do I use psi magnet to attack in the neutral game, as it loses to most of Falcon's air moves. Now the good news, Captain's most effective entries are horizontal in nature, and once he tries to act on something he is pretty committed to it. So, you basically know that regardless of your height, his action plan is to fly (more or less) right into your face. Good aerial PKFs, Magnet momentum stalls (not too often) to throw off prediction, and carefully placed Nairs and DJC Fairs are your action plan until you can land that precious grab. Nair OoS if you find yourself under a lot of pressure. At very low percents, if you find yourself within range next to a shielding falcon that you've been applying pressure to, try spamming down tilt until you rack up 15-20 percent, and then stopping suddenly and dash grabbing them. This is by no means a sure thing, but it is an interesting mix up that applies psychological pressure as well.
+1 Falcon, pressure is on you to play more perfectly and not get put in a punishment combo first.
Combos: Let's start with throws. Down throws at low damage can be chain grabbed against a Falcon who doesn't SDI forward from you, and then you have the tech chase if he does do that. I've never thought to follow up a poorly DI'd down throw with a DJC up air into regrab, will have to try that one, Bry. Personally, I like to mix up my game with up throws so my opponent can't get too used to the responses demanded of the down throw. At VERY low damage (like 0) I don't believe there is a follow up to Up Throw > DJC Up Air, so what I like to do is Up Throw > Full Hop > Psi Mag > DJC Fair / Nair which will often put Falcon slightly off stage or have us land together with me in a tech punish scenario. As you rack up damage, up throwing becomes a nonbo, where as down throw will set up a nice edge guard scenario, just SH Mag > DJC Nair and proceed to the next section. Side notes on combo'ing CF. Up Smash and Running attack pop Falcon up to the perfect height for bair punishes, but they're not exactly reliable or easy to hit, you need a seriously good read on your opponent. I have comboed INTO these attacks, but it's never a sure thing, I'm just saying to be mindful of your options and practice the matchup so you can see the opportunities coming. Your bread and butter here is gonna be DJC fairs and Aerial PKF's into grabs that start your combos, so rely most heavily on this.
+0.5 Falcon, Combos are what both of these characters are about, but Falcon is a glass cannon that fires combos. Ness isn't going to Zero to Death Falcon without him ever leaving hitstun. Ness combos into his ledgegame, not into a stock.
Edgeguarding: Some more background. We have a pretty strict honor rule of "no intentional edge hogging" for friendlies in my group. It makes the games more interesting and fun, and I believe it makes you more mindful of your options and trains you in what your characters are capable of off stage. We also go out and spike people who were going to die anyway, to give your friend an honorable death. So, that being said, I play off stage a lot with Ness, and very aggressively pursue my kills. So, options. For a Captain Falcon who is not particularly good at recovering exactly (or if you are particularly skilled with your timing) using Down Smash to hit Falcon's knuckles as he reaches for that ledge is an effective and safe option. Against most characters a psi magnet intercept into rising dair is wonderful, but you may find yourself boosting the raptor back onto the stage so be careful when using an option like this. A dangling Up Smash can catch unwary opponents off guard, and net you a free kill out of sheer surprise. I think there are percentiles where it will stun Captain so long that by the time they can Up+B they will actually fail to recover, but I'm not sure. But, I do know that sometimes, they won't be able to Up+B before I can run off the map, and stage spike them with a Bair. In any case, Up Smash is a very safe option and worst case scenario it just bought you a bit of percent and they get onto stage / ledge. Don't start it too early though, because they will try to go over you, if possible. If you hit them into the upper corner of the map so that they are forced to use Falcon Kick to recover, this is when you bust out the PK Flash, as their recovery becomes very predictable. If you can line up an off stage PKF, that is free Dairs, and will net you a kill if you know the PKF timing. My most used options are to pursue off stage and delay my fall with multiple Psi Mags and basically cover all of his options of recovery and threaten a rising bair at every avenue of escape to ensure my kill OR grab the ledge repeatedly and simply dair, bair or ljc into either of those moves. Be mindful of when Falcon actually has options to recovery, especially his walljump options. Lot of options here for Ness as well, play to your style, but try not to get predictable.
+0.5 Ness, while Falcon's stomp and knee are way more likely kill, we have far more versatility in our intercepts and depth for pursuit, and Falcon is far more easily gimped, even by a paltry psi magnet.
Recovery: First thing's first, if you have gotten knocked off the stage and the Falcon player sitting next to you is doing his job right, he has just lined up a kill attempt. If you got popped up by something that sends you not far in front and above of CF, SDI away and down to try and sour his knee if not dodge it completely. Still alive? Good, but don't relax yet. Did he jump off stage after you? If so, be careful, he may try to stomp or up air you with his double jump on his way back to the stage. If he is off stage with you and you avoid the intercept (or dair him on your way back) you should make it back on stage alive. If he did not pursue off stage, ask yourself a couple questions. Do I have to use PKT2 to survive? Am I so low that I cannot attempt a platform recovery or to sweet spot the ledge? If the answer to both of these questions is yes, you may be in some trouble. Ness's airdodge is wonderful in his recovery game, especially against captain falcon who has to commit like a mofo to intercept you. PKT2 is pretty mediocre as far as being punished is concerned, in this MU. So, do not expect to get away with doing it poorly a lot, especially from below the ledge. If your opponent is interception crazy you can try Psi Mags to throw off his prediction, but don't do this too close to the stage. Expect the punishment if your opponent is at all familiar with Ness.
+1 Ness, Ness's recovery, while punishable, has incredible range and far more versatility than Falcon's. No contest.
Stage Choice: I wouldn't listen to me much here as this section is going to be highly colored by general personal preference on the maps. I don't like high platforms because they can interfere with up throw combo game, but super low platforms can be just as bad as it can even further limit your approach options and eat aerial PKF. Close blast lines on the sides favor Captain Falcon, I feel. Level ground is important in the match for the few times you utilize ground PKF, but we're not the tallest so the uneven floor can interfere with Falcon's grab game as well.
Neutral Stages in order of preference: Smashville > FD / PS2 > DL > BF > FD > YI
Counter Picks I just like: WW, GHZ, DC, and MM
Maps that just randomly kill me by tucking me under the stage with my double jump: Sky World, Lylat Cruise >:[
Final score, 1.5:1.5. I would say the match up is 50/50, and I think it really goes to the better player, not the character. Whoever has the more extensive knowledge of what both characters are capable of, the better read on their opponent and the better technical ability is going to take this fight.
Neutral: His dash dance combined with his speed and air priority means Captain Falcon is constantly representing a threat and baiting you to make a mistake. Your reactions must be very tight, and you need to know your options well if you don't want to taste the wheel of pain. Many of your ground moves are non-options as throwing them out is going to gain you a drive by dair, and only that if you're lucky. As has been said, your PKF spacing game is very important here, try not to throw out grounded ones unless you know they'll hit. What you really want to land on Falcon is a throw, but many of his attacks (all his aerials) are going to push you far enough that a shield grab is unlikely, if spaced well, or have him end up far enough behind you so as to be unpunishable. That, and CF wants very badly to grab you. A good falcon can land a single grab, and start a chain of down throws, Nairs and gentlemans to carry you across the stage and end the whole thing with a throw into knee attempt. I would not DD much, as it feels too slow in the MU and easily punished. Nor do I use psi magnet to attack in the neutral game, as it loses to most of Falcon's air moves. Now the good news, Captain's most effective entries are horizontal in nature, and once he tries to act on something he is pretty committed to it. So, you basically know that regardless of your height, his action plan is to fly (more or less) right into your face. Good aerial PKFs, Magnet momentum stalls (not too often) to throw off prediction, and carefully placed Nairs and DJC Fairs are your action plan until you can land that precious grab. Nair OoS if you find yourself under a lot of pressure. At very low percents, if you find yourself within range next to a shielding falcon that you've been applying pressure to, try spamming down tilt until you rack up 15-20 percent, and then stopping suddenly and dash grabbing them. This is by no means a sure thing, but it is an interesting mix up that applies psychological pressure as well.
+1 Falcon, pressure is on you to play more perfectly and not get put in a punishment combo first.
Combos: Let's start with throws. Down throws at low damage can be chain grabbed against a Falcon who doesn't SDI forward from you, and then you have the tech chase if he does do that. I've never thought to follow up a poorly DI'd down throw with a DJC up air into regrab, will have to try that one, Bry. Personally, I like to mix up my game with up throws so my opponent can't get too used to the responses demanded of the down throw. At VERY low damage (like 0) I don't believe there is a follow up to Up Throw > DJC Up Air, so what I like to do is Up Throw > Full Hop > Psi Mag > DJC Fair / Nair which will often put Falcon slightly off stage or have us land together with me in a tech punish scenario. As you rack up damage, up throwing becomes a nonbo, where as down throw will set up a nice edge guard scenario, just SH Mag > DJC Nair and proceed to the next section. Side notes on combo'ing CF. Up Smash and Running attack pop Falcon up to the perfect height for bair punishes, but they're not exactly reliable or easy to hit, you need a seriously good read on your opponent. I have comboed INTO these attacks, but it's never a sure thing, I'm just saying to be mindful of your options and practice the matchup so you can see the opportunities coming. Your bread and butter here is gonna be DJC fairs and Aerial PKF's into grabs that start your combos, so rely most heavily on this.
+0.5 Falcon, Combos are what both of these characters are about, but Falcon is a glass cannon that fires combos. Ness isn't going to Zero to Death Falcon without him ever leaving hitstun. Ness combos into his ledgegame, not into a stock.
Edgeguarding: Some more background. We have a pretty strict honor rule of "no intentional edge hogging" for friendlies in my group. It makes the games more interesting and fun, and I believe it makes you more mindful of your options and trains you in what your characters are capable of off stage. We also go out and spike people who were going to die anyway, to give your friend an honorable death. So, that being said, I play off stage a lot with Ness, and very aggressively pursue my kills. So, options. For a Captain Falcon who is not particularly good at recovering exactly (or if you are particularly skilled with your timing) using Down Smash to hit Falcon's knuckles as he reaches for that ledge is an effective and safe option. Against most characters a psi magnet intercept into rising dair is wonderful, but you may find yourself boosting the raptor back onto the stage so be careful when using an option like this. A dangling Up Smash can catch unwary opponents off guard, and net you a free kill out of sheer surprise. I think there are percentiles where it will stun Captain so long that by the time they can Up+B they will actually fail to recover, but I'm not sure. But, I do know that sometimes, they won't be able to Up+B before I can run off the map, and stage spike them with a Bair. In any case, Up Smash is a very safe option and worst case scenario it just bought you a bit of percent and they get onto stage / ledge. Don't start it too early though, because they will try to go over you, if possible. If you hit them into the upper corner of the map so that they are forced to use Falcon Kick to recover, this is when you bust out the PK Flash, as their recovery becomes very predictable. If you can line up an off stage PKF, that is free Dairs, and will net you a kill if you know the PKF timing. My most used options are to pursue off stage and delay my fall with multiple Psi Mags and basically cover all of his options of recovery and threaten a rising bair at every avenue of escape to ensure my kill OR grab the ledge repeatedly and simply dair, bair or ljc into either of those moves. Be mindful of when Falcon actually has options to recovery, especially his walljump options. Lot of options here for Ness as well, play to your style, but try not to get predictable.
+0.5 Ness, while Falcon's stomp and knee are way more likely kill, we have far more versatility in our intercepts and depth for pursuit, and Falcon is far more easily gimped, even by a paltry psi magnet.
Recovery: First thing's first, if you have gotten knocked off the stage and the Falcon player sitting next to you is doing his job right, he has just lined up a kill attempt. If you got popped up by something that sends you not far in front and above of CF, SDI away and down to try and sour his knee if not dodge it completely. Still alive? Good, but don't relax yet. Did he jump off stage after you? If so, be careful, he may try to stomp or up air you with his double jump on his way back to the stage. If he is off stage with you and you avoid the intercept (or dair him on your way back) you should make it back on stage alive. If he did not pursue off stage, ask yourself a couple questions. Do I have to use PKT2 to survive? Am I so low that I cannot attempt a platform recovery or to sweet spot the ledge? If the answer to both of these questions is yes, you may be in some trouble. Ness's airdodge is wonderful in his recovery game, especially against captain falcon who has to commit like a mofo to intercept you. PKT2 is pretty mediocre as far as being punished is concerned, in this MU. So, do not expect to get away with doing it poorly a lot, especially from below the ledge. If your opponent is interception crazy you can try Psi Mags to throw off his prediction, but don't do this too close to the stage. Expect the punishment if your opponent is at all familiar with Ness.
+1 Ness, Ness's recovery, while punishable, has incredible range and far more versatility than Falcon's. No contest.
Stage Choice: I wouldn't listen to me much here as this section is going to be highly colored by general personal preference on the maps. I don't like high platforms because they can interfere with up throw combo game, but super low platforms can be just as bad as it can even further limit your approach options and eat aerial PKF. Close blast lines on the sides favor Captain Falcon, I feel. Level ground is important in the match for the few times you utilize ground PKF, but we're not the tallest so the uneven floor can interfere with Falcon's grab game as well.
Neutral Stages in order of preference: Smashville > FD / PS2 > DL > BF > FD > YI
Counter Picks I just like: WW, GHZ, DC, and MM
Maps that just randomly kill me by tucking me under the stage with my double jump: Sky World, Lylat Cruise >:[
Final score, 1.5:1.5. I would say the match up is 50/50, and I think it really goes to the better player, not the character. Whoever has the more extensive knowledge of what both characters are capable of, the better read on their opponent and the better technical ability is going to take this fight.
Bryonato
Green Hat
Hey guys. So sorry. I completely spaced updating the thread this week; have some friends in town. Who would you all like to see discussed this week?
Zero May Cry
Smash Cadet
I think we should talk Fox and/or Falco. With Ness' new tools in P:M the matchup is definitely different. If it's gotta be one, I vote for Falco.
fAtomsk
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Mar 15, 2014
- Messages
- 19
Like I said in skype I think a lot of people want to figure out the Link MU, but I'd be down with Falco as well, since NZA wants to delay that.
The_NZA
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Apr 7, 2007
- Messages
- 1,979
I'm fine with talking about either. I just feel like I can contribute more than most on the Link conversation, and I still am not convinced I understand the matchup extremely well.
Bryonato
Green Hat
Sounds like we'll be doing Falco this week.
Unfortunately idk a lot about this mu and most of what I say is going to be theorycraft. Ya'll are going to have to help me out here
Unfortunately idk a lot about this mu and most of what I say is going to be theorycraft. Ya'll are going to have to help me out here
Last edited:
Zero May Cry
Smash Cadet
There's some pretty awesome tech with the yo-yo that works especially well against space animals, especially Falco because of his weak recovery. I can make a video that will detail it more, but let me just first talk about the tech. if you're on stage and edgeguarding an animal that is offstage, simply dangle your usmash yo-yo over the edge. If they decide to phantasm or illusion (side-b) back on stage, the hitbox of the yo-yo will connect and send them downwards. At this point their only option is to use up-b, where you can just proceed to bat them away, since there is no way to sweetspot the ledge going straight up. Try it out, I'll make a video soon hopefully.
Also I can contribute some things on the Falco matchup itself. If they're using laser pressure, try magnet dashing and showing them that spewing lasers isn't going to cut it. Also, don't be afraid of going off stage to beat Falco's recovery - it's predictable. Finally, take advantage of his fast faller properties and give the player a taste of your best vertical combos. Try using uthrow some more in this matchup.
Also I can contribute some things on the Falco matchup itself. If they're using laser pressure, try magnet dashing and showing them that spewing lasers isn't going to cut it. Also, don't be afraid of going off stage to beat Falco's recovery - it's predictable. Finally, take advantage of his fast faller properties and give the player a taste of your best vertical combos. Try using uthrow some more in this matchup.
Bryonato
Green Hat
Most of us (in the skype group) are all pretty familiar with yoyo edgeguarding afaik. The spacie mu is really one of the only mu's that I like using yoyo edgeguarding for, tbh, for reasons you explained.
Zero May Cry
Smash Cadet
Oh, didn't know that haha. It's actually pretty useful for DK if he's trying to recover vertically from below the stage. Worked wonders for me in a tournament yesterday.
Bryonato
Green Hat
Suppose I can try and spark some conversation here and give my brief knowledge about this stuff:
DON'T take him to WarioWare. Through my games with Meta at Apex I learned this stage is basically Falco's wet dream. The plat layout gives him amazing options for his already stellar combo game.
Some generic combo stuff for him/spacies in general: Uthrow will CG until %s close to 100 afaik. If you're very confident in your combo game you can also uthrow -> djc uair -> regrab for extra damage. Throwing in magnet during strings at low %s will often knock them down/cause a missed tech due to ff and its kb.
I cant remember the exact % (i posted it in the skype group) but dtilt will force a knockdown/tech at.... 68 (?) % and above. Can't remember the exact number. Should be easy enough to figure out on your own in training mode or something.
Also fun thing in this mu: mag will force a knockdown/tech at mid %s as well allowing you to mag dash -> tech chase for days. Not super useful but yknow.
Also I would only recommend using magnet defensively if he's camping you from a good distance away, otherwise you'll be stuck in absorb lag and will likely just eat a dair/nair/etc.
I would imagine this is another 40/60 for us.
DON'T take him to WarioWare. Through my games with Meta at Apex I learned this stage is basically Falco's wet dream. The plat layout gives him amazing options for his already stellar combo game.
Some generic combo stuff for him/spacies in general: Uthrow will CG until %s close to 100 afaik. If you're very confident in your combo game you can also uthrow -> djc uair -> regrab for extra damage. Throwing in magnet during strings at low %s will often knock them down/cause a missed tech due to ff and its kb.
I cant remember the exact % (i posted it in the skype group) but dtilt will force a knockdown/tech at.... 68 (?) % and above. Can't remember the exact number. Should be easy enough to figure out on your own in training mode or something.
Also fun thing in this mu: mag will force a knockdown/tech at mid %s as well allowing you to mag dash -> tech chase for days. Not super useful but yknow.
Also I would only recommend using magnet defensively if he's camping you from a good distance away, otherwise you'll be stuck in absorb lag and will likely just eat a dair/nair/etc.
I would imagine this is another 40/60 for us.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
Falco is so easy to kill. That alone i think gives us quite a good matchup. As for the laser game I just full hop a lot to avoid it.
Bryonato
Green Hat
good point. I would imagine from full hop djc/magnet stuff we could avoid lasers pretty handily
SouthernGent
Smash Cadet
Neutral:
Against Falco it is very easy to get locked down in shield by lasers when on bigger stages so in those scenarios I find that it is generally good to full hop by the edge and wait for a Falco to make a bad approach which can generally convert to a kill or near death experience seeing how easy it is for him to get comboed by Ness. On smaller stages I tend to throw out nairs when he is above me and fairs when he is on platforms in front though you have to watch out because forward smash hits like a truck and goes through most anything.
Combos:
Up throw leads to the heaviest damage combos we got. Since I tend to spend so much time by the edge I will often go straight to bair after one or two up throws seeing as the knockback leads to generally easy edge guarding with yo-yo/ nair/ bair. A sometimes good mix up instead of up throw is down throw into magnet-> a lot of things (though only if they miss the initial tech)
Edge Guarding:
down smash against Falco is generally guaranteed to kill at any percent past 50%. My personal favorite edge guard though is magnet off the stage to DJC nair (like this http://youtu.be/1w_iw288fkU?t=36s ).
Recovery:
Unless you are able to tech Falco's dair hit off the stage after PKT2 (something I been thinking about but forgetting to try) recovering low is not very wise. Due to his bair and his forward smash as well means that not sweet spotting the ledge is generally not the best idea unless you can get a fairly safe distance to the other side of the stage. Using magnet is a great way to gain a little extra height in case a Falco tries to shine you off the top and is also god at adjusting your momentum off stage/can absorb lasers if they try and tack on extra damage/can be used to turn yourself around to hit them with the rising aeriel of your choice.
Stage Choice:
I generally try and ban FoD, Wario Ware and Yoshi's Story against Falco (my crew like to refer to this as the triangle ban). The stages I do enjoy against Falco are Sky World due to most players unfamiliarity with the stage and how easy it is for them to SD, Lylat because you can use magnet to add shield pressure through the platforms without ever having to get on their level and FD because combos for days.
Against Falco it is very easy to get locked down in shield by lasers when on bigger stages so in those scenarios I find that it is generally good to full hop by the edge and wait for a Falco to make a bad approach which can generally convert to a kill or near death experience seeing how easy it is for him to get comboed by Ness. On smaller stages I tend to throw out nairs when he is above me and fairs when he is on platforms in front though you have to watch out because forward smash hits like a truck and goes through most anything.
Combos:
Up throw leads to the heaviest damage combos we got. Since I tend to spend so much time by the edge I will often go straight to bair after one or two up throws seeing as the knockback leads to generally easy edge guarding with yo-yo/ nair/ bair. A sometimes good mix up instead of up throw is down throw into magnet-> a lot of things (though only if they miss the initial tech)
Edge Guarding:
down smash against Falco is generally guaranteed to kill at any percent past 50%. My personal favorite edge guard though is magnet off the stage to DJC nair (like this http://youtu.be/1w_iw288fkU?t=36s ).
Recovery:
Unless you are able to tech Falco's dair hit off the stage after PKT2 (something I been thinking about but forgetting to try) recovering low is not very wise. Due to his bair and his forward smash as well means that not sweet spotting the ledge is generally not the best idea unless you can get a fairly safe distance to the other side of the stage. Using magnet is a great way to gain a little extra height in case a Falco tries to shine you off the top and is also god at adjusting your momentum off stage/can absorb lasers if they try and tack on extra damage/can be used to turn yourself around to hit them with the rising aeriel of your choice.
Stage Choice:
I generally try and ban FoD, Wario Ware and Yoshi's Story against Falco (my crew like to refer to this as the triangle ban). The stages I do enjoy against Falco are Sky World due to most players unfamiliarity with the stage and how easy it is for them to SD, Lylat because you can use magnet to add shield pressure through the platforms without ever having to get on their level and FD because combos for days.
Red(SP)
Smash Journeyman
Comments in bold.
thesage
Smash Hero
For the love of whatever various god(s) you may believe in, DI out of his pillar combos. Learn the timing for powershielding his lasers. Use platforms to dodge his lasers. Learn the grab uair/uthrow combos and how to tech chase. Generally the chain goes (from 0%) as u-throw -> u-throw -(dependent on DI) u-throw/djc uair--> (repeat). Knowing when to dash grab, jc grab, or djc uair is something that comes with experience. U-air can be extremely deadly and can combo into pretty much anything (even into f-smash). D-throw also combos nicely at mid percents but I don't know the exact extent of that. Knowing how to follow up when you throw him onto a platform can be extremely useful, but if you mess up, it's very easy for him to shine or dair you.
He can reflect pk fire back out you. Be mindful of his crouch cancels. He is one of the better cc'ers out there. If you don't space properly his cc shine can be a big pain for you.
On FD you get easier combos, but it's harder to dodge his lasers. Always ban pokemon stadium. Spacies mobility on that stage is dumb. BF and FD are my favorite stages in this matchup. I don't like Lylat since the moving stage screws with djc and pk fire and I'm too lazy to learn how to deal with that.
Essentially both characters can easily edgeguard each other, combo each other, but Falco has big advantage when it comes to zoning and starting his combos. If you can mitigate his laser game and combo him well, you stand a decent chance. Try approaching with PSI Magnet tricks, just don't be too obvious about it. Big shame they removed jumping out of PSI Magnet's absorb lag. Would've been really helpful in this matchup and maybe even the Fox matchup too. It's easier than the melee matchup, but still is problematic. Ness's increased mobility and buffed combo tools help quite a bit. If you want to quantify this I'd say this was a 60-40 matchup at best. It's probably worse. I'm not good a quantifying qualities lol.
BTW use pk flash to edgeguard DK lol.
He can reflect pk fire back out you. Be mindful of his crouch cancels. He is one of the better cc'ers out there. If you don't space properly his cc shine can be a big pain for you.
On FD you get easier combos, but it's harder to dodge his lasers. Always ban pokemon stadium. Spacies mobility on that stage is dumb. BF and FD are my favorite stages in this matchup. I don't like Lylat since the moving stage screws with djc and pk fire and I'm too lazy to learn how to deal with that.
Essentially both characters can easily edgeguard each other, combo each other, but Falco has big advantage when it comes to zoning and starting his combos. If you can mitigate his laser game and combo him well, you stand a decent chance. Try approaching with PSI Magnet tricks, just don't be too obvious about it. Big shame they removed jumping out of PSI Magnet's absorb lag. Would've been really helpful in this matchup and maybe even the Fox matchup too. It's easier than the melee matchup, but still is problematic. Ness's increased mobility and buffed combo tools help quite a bit. If you want to quantify this I'd say this was a 60-40 matchup at best. It's probably worse. I'm not good a quantifying qualities lol.
BTW use pk flash to edgeguard DK lol.
Bryonato
Green Hat
This is actually really important to remember vs. Falco because of how his shine is coded in this game.
Bryonato
Green Hat
Aight so I'm taking requests for next week's MU discussion since this one is more or less dead. Who do you want to talk about?
nessmaster1
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Nov 12, 2013
- Messages
- 68
Sonic or Diddy.
The_NZA
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Apr 7, 2007
- Messages
- 1,979
On Falco
- Neutral game -
The neutral game is a lot of Ness getting altitude above lasers, magneting the incoming lasers, and DJC fairing when the falco missteps into his approach. Off of fair, you get grabs, into sick punishes. The neutral game is all setting up the opportunity to get a good fair (much like most matchups) but the challenge is, you cant just air camp with jumps due to laser. You have to use the magnet. Notice what I do here against matt dot zeb.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=oDSVScdDOMg#t=119
The 3 seconds here kind of exemplify the neutral game. I throw a pkfire to predict if he falls, then I jump high enough so that if he comes to the ground, I will be out of hte way of a laser and I can DJC fair into him fast. From there, I'm normally looking to grab. Aerial PK fires are also quite good, just like htey are in other matchups. Grounded pk fires are good from max distance, but they can be beat from a laser. If you do them too close to a falco, you'll eat a laser and a fsmash or shine.
Be careful not to over extend and to get hit hard by a fsmash.
If you are getting shield pressured, just roll away. Rolling is actually very important in this matchup in very specific situations.
- Comboing -
Learn to combo well off grabs. Before 80%, there is always a reliable chain of uthrows, uairs, and bairs that are inescapable when there aren't platforms to mess with you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzVzk4NB-FY
In that match, you can see how I convert a lot of damage off of every throw and sometimes just random aerials.
If there are platforms, learn to predict that he will go for a tech, and waveland onto a platform for the regrab. Dtilt can lead to a missed tech and a DJC nair, dair, or uair response. The other choice when you have platforms around that are going to bother you and you don't think you'll be able to get a waveland onto a platform is to uthrow -> magnet -> nair or fair. This gives you a more horizontal combo option. However, I would mostly avoid magnet as a combo starter in this matchup. Could be my own lack of confidence, but I don't htink falco is built to be easily combo'd using magnet.
- Edge guarding -
Rule 1: Nair always beats falco's forward b. Never be afraid of being meteord---if you nair, you'll be fine. Also, nair will kill falco almost all the time. Dair is also good in those situations hwere you think you'll nair too late and hit him back onto the stage rather than away from it.
Rule 2: if falco is anywhere far from the stage, he has to forward b to recover (presuming there aren't walls to walljump off of). That means, you can easily cover his options by jumping off and nairing past the edge, magnetting, and DJ fairing/nairing/dairing him during his upb startup if he chooses the next option.
Rule 3: Never edge guard falco in a way that gives him the opportunity to dair trade you.
Beyond that, he's one of hte easiest and most fun characters for ness to gimp. Don't be shy about fthrow. Because of how readable and fragile his recovery is, you can bring a game back pretty quickly.
- Recovering -
Recovering low is a bad idea unless you mix it up with a upb delay (use the magnet as well as larger pkt1 loops to mixup your low recovery). This is because plain old dair is so damn good. My recommendation would be if you have to recover low, hold the cstick towards the stage and down, and try to tech against the edge. Recovering high is smart, but don't try to trade hits with falco. He can very easily bair or fsmash you. For your "combo recovery" learn to DI shine and dair properly. Proper DI against shine is stright horizontal, while proper DI against dair is probably horizontal away and slightly up most likely. I'm honestly not an expert on DIing pillars. If you are recovering low, I'd try to go up as much as possible and drift away from him. He's not exactly the most mobile character on the ground.
- Stage Choice - What stages do you like vs. the opposing character? Where should we go, and what should we avoid?
Falco kills off the sides. Avoid Warioware. At all Costs. This place is a goddamn spacie haven. I'd also avoid YI: melee and then you have to decide between GHZ and FoD. GHZ is scary because the walls give his recovery a mixup, but at the same time the stage is flatter, so you can more reliably do uthrow shenanigans. FoD on the other hand has platforms which can get in our chaingrab way, but I tend to have more survivability.
I like stages with wide sides. YI Brawl, DL64, Dracula's, Skyworld, Final D. You should be able to get to one of these stages on a counterpick. For Neutrals, FD is ideal but htey will ban it if they aren't dumb. Smashville is pretty good for us because there aren't many interrupting platforms. It's a tossup for me between Battlefield and PS2.
- Matchup Spread -
I personally think this matchup is harder than Fox. I'd say by and large, in neutral both characters are a major threat to one another. But a smart falco can control the pace of the match better than a Ness. Ness can get nearly a kill off of any grab with a good punish game, but Falco also has the tools to prevent a grab. It's either 40-60 or 45-55 in favor of Falco. Certainly not Ness's worst or hardest matchup, but if you are caught sleeping for a moment, its a problem. Then again, that holds true for both characters.
- I don't have too many other random words of advice. Retreating aerial magnet is good because it pressures the falco to approach and to not laser as carelessly, but its dangerous to magnet in front of him due to laser absorb stun into anything falco hurts. When falco is firebirding, fair->dair is really sick. Remember to be patient about your shielding since he can throw a lot of hitboxes out in a row. Practice your uthrow combos in training mode.
I'll just go ahead and post some videos:
NZA v. Tropico:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzVzk4NB-FY
NZA v. MattDotZeb:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDSVScdDOMg
NZA v. AOI (sorry for the vid quality):
http://www.twitch.tv/gameunderground/b/505042590?t=353m00s
SpaceJello
Smash Apprentice
you guys say you cant jump out of absorbing a laser but ive been able to wavedash back after being shot at. someone please try and confirm? this is what ive been using to deal with the lasers
SpaceJello
Smash Apprentice
also i vote next discussion on rob
Bryonato
Green Hat
It's not that you can't jump out of mag after absorbing a laser, there's just 10 (iirc?) frames of lag after absorbing something where you can't do anything.
Mag vs fastfallers imo functions similarly to dtilt as it forces a knockdown and in combination with weak hit nairs, djc fair etc can force them to miss a tech. Really great at just carrying them across the stage (see: SinisterB vs. Deap.)
Ok so so far we have Rob, Sonic, Diddy, Mewtwo, and Fox (latter 2 suggested in the skype group) for this week. Need more than one vote for any of the listed.
Last edited:
Zero May Cry
Smash Cadet
i vote for Mewtwo.
Bryonato
Green Hat
Mewtwo it is! Another matchup I have very little experience in but would love to learn more about. Updating the thread now and will do a writeup to the best of my understanding later.
Bestrin
Smash Apprentice
One of Mewtwo's strongest attributes is his tail - a large disjointed hitbox. many of his tilts and aerials make good use of this, making it hard for a short-range character to approach. Mewtwo's side-B can also be used to reflect PK Fires used to approach or space out Mewtwo.
What are good techniques to get into Mewtwo's face without taking too much damage trying to approach?
What are good techniques to get into Mewtwo's face without taking too much damage trying to approach?
G13_Flux
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jan 1, 2013
- Messages
- 1,076
Smart usage of pk fire is going to be key in the mewtwo match up. Pk fire is literally the only option Ness has to deal with his ranged tilts and bair. Ness is definitely a bit quicker than mewtwo, so as long as you can supply pressure well from mid range and stay unpredictable with mixing in DJCs, you should be able to take advantage of mewtwos lack of speed. Mewtwo doesn't exactly have the best neutral game when it comes to dealing with ranged pressure, so that's where it's really going to make the difference. as far as recovering goes, distance wise they are similar, but ness has a harder time getting back due to bair and the ledge being harder to sweet spot for him. Mewtwo is quite hard to edge guard.
Think this one could be even. Mewtwos tilts could give Ness a lot of trouble, but ness also has quicker mobility options and better ranged pressure. I'd say they have relatively comparable punish games on each other, but with Ness having a better punish game onstage, but a harder time recovering.
Think this one could be even. Mewtwos tilts could give Ness a lot of trouble, but ness also has quicker mobility options and better ranged pressure. I'd say they have relatively comparable punish games on each other, but with Ness having a better punish game onstage, but a harder time recovering.
Bryonato
Green Hat
Yeah mostly you just don't want to try to compete with his tail. While this may seem obvious it imo it stands to be said: don't try and dair him if you're caught getting juggled. You will never beat out m2's uair with dair. The best way to get back to the ground I think is breversed pkfires.
For stages I would think GHZ would be nice for this mu. Moving plat to situationally (<- not a word?) assist with our recovery, high ceiling (because m2 uthrow/fair), and short walls so we can kill earlier without having to worry about his recovery.
I don't really know the best way to edgeguard m2 since he has so many options between his crazy DJ, float and upB. Is flash/pkt pressure effective at all or can he just weave around it? Usually vs characters with really great recoveries like that I just do rising fairs to cover a lot of space and maybe grab at hit in and force them into a less favorable postion.
For stages I would think GHZ would be nice for this mu. Moving plat to situationally (<- not a word?) assist with our recovery, high ceiling (because m2 uthrow/fair), and short walls so we can kill earlier without having to worry about his recovery.
I don't really know the best way to edgeguard m2 since he has so many options between his crazy DJ, float and upB. Is flash/pkt pressure effective at all or can he just weave around it? Usually vs characters with really great recoveries like that I just do rising fairs to cover a lot of space and maybe grab at hit in and force them into a less favorable postion.
Last edited:
GMaster171
Smash Ace
Since Bryon keeps yelling at me, I guess I should make a post in here.
I don't know much about this matchup, as nobody in my region plays M2, but I can theorycraft tactics/stages and stuff.
The first thing I think of when seeing M2 is to stay grounded as long as possible. Its a similar case as Marth wher being above him will always lead to us taking more damage than we need to, with little to no chance of even trading with M2 (his tail has good disjoint). Keeping either on top platforms, under him or on level ground should be the best places.
DD a lot baiting a teleport or shadowball charge, both of which we can punish after reading it (teleport is still hard to get). In this we might actually be able to sh magnet him on reaction to a shadowball charge. If he keeps charging, he gets hit; if he stops hes forced into shield and we have shield safe things after magnet and if he shoots he will get his shadow ball absorbed and be hit, which will most likely let us get something (if not then screw absorb lag lol).
He has high range low lag tilts, and all of them have disjoint, think of it like Marth/Roy (Roy's d-tilt and f-tilt, Marth's uair) and you can get a sense of how to space around them. If you are unlucky enough to end up above him, try to get off stage then DI up (so the horizontal hit of uair or bair dont kill you) and try to get the ledge.
Stages... smallish ones with high platformes, WW, GHZ, BF even. M2 is heavy with one of the best recovies in the game, so be wary of taking him to DL or the like. He also focuses on either gimps or vertical kills (shadow claw and uthrow) so small sides are good for bair/b-throw kills.
Hes super floaty so d-throw always. we should get things into kill %s (i dont know exactly), but getting the kill seems like it would be hard.
I don't know what else to say really, this is 99% theory but someone may learn from it.
I don't know much about this matchup, as nobody in my region plays M2, but I can theorycraft tactics/stages and stuff.
The first thing I think of when seeing M2 is to stay grounded as long as possible. Its a similar case as Marth wher being above him will always lead to us taking more damage than we need to, with little to no chance of even trading with M2 (his tail has good disjoint). Keeping either on top platforms, under him or on level ground should be the best places.
DD a lot baiting a teleport or shadowball charge, both of which we can punish after reading it (teleport is still hard to get). In this we might actually be able to sh magnet him on reaction to a shadowball charge. If he keeps charging, he gets hit; if he stops hes forced into shield and we have shield safe things after magnet and if he shoots he will get his shadow ball absorbed and be hit, which will most likely let us get something (if not then screw absorb lag lol).
He has high range low lag tilts, and all of them have disjoint, think of it like Marth/Roy (Roy's d-tilt and f-tilt, Marth's uair) and you can get a sense of how to space around them. If you are unlucky enough to end up above him, try to get off stage then DI up (so the horizontal hit of uair or bair dont kill you) and try to get the ledge.
Stages... smallish ones with high platformes, WW, GHZ, BF even. M2 is heavy with one of the best recovies in the game, so be wary of taking him to DL or the like. He also focuses on either gimps or vertical kills (shadow claw and uthrow) so small sides are good for bair/b-throw kills.
Hes super floaty so d-throw always. we should get things into kill %s (i dont know exactly), but getting the kill seems like it would be hard.
I don't know what else to say really, this is 99% theory but someone may learn from it.
GMaster171
Smash Ace
He's not as heavy as I thought; hes 97, compared to Mario's 100, Marth's 87 and Ness' 94.
Based @
Bryonato
taking over the MU thread. I tried to stay on top of the old one but I stopped getting alerts from it for some reason and forgot lol. I still love ness though, If Diddy ever gets changed to the point where I don't like him any more I'll probably come back and main Gnw/Ness.
I have a lot of melee M2 experience(I play 2 different m2 mains every week), so I guess all I could really input on this MU is that shield pressure on him isn't worth it, and respect his godlike rolls. I honestly think that his roll easily out ranges and speeds a Pk-fire so punishing his rolls are hard.
Getting out ranged sucks but its safe to camp him and crouch/absorb projectiles until M2 catches onto patters and Teleports to punish absorb lag.
Edit: I want in on ths skype group lol. I can try to offer help if i see something, or just chime in with frame data like I normally do in the Diddy one. I'll definetly give advice once you guys start talking about diddy or GnW ( can't help with fox, all I do is laser camp in melee and that doesn't work in pm so I don't know anything anymore)
Edit 2: Shielding won't be safe in this MU at all once m2's start footstooling, they get guarenteed stuff on the whole cast with DJC (we do too) and Hover cancel stuff. For now it doesn't matter but try to break habits of preemptively sheilding at the meta develops.
Bryonato
taking over the MU thread. I tried to stay on top of the old one but I stopped getting alerts from it for some reason and forgot lol. I still love ness though, If Diddy ever gets changed to the point where I don't like him any more I'll probably come back and main Gnw/Ness.I have a lot of melee M2 experience(I play 2 different m2 mains every week), so I guess all I could really input on this MU is that shield pressure on him isn't worth it, and respect his godlike rolls. I honestly think that his roll easily out ranges and speeds a Pk-fire so punishing his rolls are hard.
Getting out ranged sucks but its safe to camp him and crouch/absorb projectiles until M2 catches onto patters and Teleports to punish absorb lag.
Edit: I want in on ths skype group lol. I can try to offer help if i see something, or just chime in with frame data like I normally do in the Diddy one. I'll definetly give advice once you guys start talking about diddy or GnW ( can't help with fox, all I do is laser camp in melee and that doesn't work in pm so I don't know anything anymore)
Edit 2: Shielding won't be safe in this MU at all once m2's start footstooling, they get guarenteed stuff on the whole cast with DJC (we do too) and Hover cancel stuff. For now it doesn't matter but try to break habits of preemptively sheilding at the meta develops.
Last edited:
Bryonato
Green Hat
^ Need your skype name bruh
Derp
S0ftie_1 or S0ftie.1, i cant remember
Bryonato
Green Hat
How do you guys feel about the MU spread? I've only ever heard that we lose this one but IDK.
