MU Thread v2 | PM 3.5 Ness Matchup Discussion |

Bryonato

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#1
IF YOU ARE LOOKING FOR THE BEGINNING OF 3.5 MU DISCUSSION, PLEASE JUMP TO PAGE 9 OR CLICK HERE

INTRODUCTION:


Hey everyone! Bryonato here with a new matchup discussion thread. My goal with this thread is to provide both a more organized and active discussion of Ness' matchups in Project M version 3.5 and beyond. Many thanks to Soft Serve for the creation of the original MU thread but it is of my understanding that he's since switched mains and doesn't post here very often anymore. Rather than pester him with thread update requests I wanted to take the liberty of just starting one myself.

FORMAT:

DISCLAIMER: You are not required to use the suggested post format below. Post however you wish, this post format is just here to provide a general outline of what to discuss and give organization to the thread.

We will be discussing Ness' matchups on a character specific, weekly (or bi-weekly, depending on thread activity) basis. During the discussions, please provide your opinions on the following:
  1. Neutral game - How we fair vs. the opposing character in the neutral state of the game. What are our best options during this state? What should we watch out for?
  2. Comboing - What are some of our best combo paths/options vs. the opposing character? What works? What doesn't? (Ex: "Dthrow -> Magnet -> DJC Fair chains into itself vs Metaknight.")
  3. Edge guarding - What are our best tools for edge guarding the opposing character? Does it work better for us to go offstage or try to cover their options onstage? (Ex: "Vs. Marth I find that USmash near the ledge doesn't work very well since his UpB can hit us out of it. Going offstage with a fair is much better, in my opinion.")
  4. Recovering - What is the best and safest way to get back to the ledge vs. the opposing character? Do we do better recovering high or low? Are there any specific strategies that work well when recovering vs. the opposing character?
  5. Stage Choice - What stages do you like vs. the opposing character? Where should we go, and what should we avoid?
  6. Matchup Spread - In your opinion, how good is this matchup for Ness based on a 20 point scale? For example, is it 35:65 in favor of the opposing character, 60:40 in favor of Ness, etc.
  7. Extra stuff - Of course, I encourage you to post about anything else you think about the MU that you don't think the above sections cover. Feel free to talk about any specific scenarios you mave have encountered in your own experience vs. the character, character specific tricks and nuances, video footage of you playing the matchup with specific examples, etc. Pretty much whatever you want.
Usually during the last few days of the character discussion I'll start taking requests for which character you'd like to discuss next week and will accordingly update the OP to link to past discussions and mark down what the general consensus of the matchup/spread was. Thanks for your input!!

THIS WEEK:
:snake: Snake, Snaake, SNAAAAAAAAKE!
 
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Bryonato

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#2
3.02 MUs (outdated)
(Heads are clickable)
WEEK 1: :marth:35|65
WEEK 2:
Extended Discussion.
WEEK 3: :zerosuitsamus:50|50
WEEK 4: :falcon:45|55 // 50|50
WEEK 5:
Extended Discussion
WEEK 6: :falco: 40|60
WEEK 7:
Extended Discussion
WEEK 8: :mewtwopm: 40|60 // 60|40 (no consensus -- scarce discussion)
WEEK 9: :metaknight: 50|50 (no consensus -- scarce discussion)
WEEK 10: :mario2: 40|60
WEEK 11: :diddy:50|50
WEEK 12: :link2: 30|70
WEEK 13: :lucas:

3.5: (click the heads)
WEEK 1: :fox: 40|60
WEEK 2: :ganondorf: 60|40

WEEK 3: :snake:
 
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Bryonato

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#3
vs Marth:
Fortunately my buddy mains this douchebag so I have a fair about of experience vs him. This is a matchup that, imo, gets a ton easier with experience, though that can be said about nearly all matchups.

Neutral game- This is definitely imo where Ness struggles the most (bit of a running theme in most of his mu's). Marth's fair alone outranges about everything we can do and is very good at keeping us out. He also of course has fsmash, nair, ftilt which are all pretty good at stuffing our stubby arms. Our best bet imo is establishing a conditioned bait and punish game, but a well timed fair can get us in as well.
Awhile ago @ The_NZA The_NZA was talking about angles vs. Marth. Think he said something about how Marth's Fair doesn't really cover him at about a 45 degree angle in front of him. If you can find that sweetspot consistently our Fair will get us in.
PKfire ofc is always an option as well. If you're going to pkf though make sure you're doing it from the air. SH pkf, djc pkf and wb pkf all work decently. Generally with grounded pkf Marth will just jump over it and swat us. If Marth manages to get a grab on us, especially at low percents it really ****ing hurts. He can Fthrow -> regrab Fthrow -> regrab Fthrow -> Fsmash us from 0 which will then put him in the position to edgeguard.
Also just don't magnet vs Marth in neutral as an approach. You'll just get fair'd. Magnet should only be used in neutral vs Marth as a bait with wavebouncing or something imo.

Comboing- Marth is at one of those unfortunate "kinda floaty" weights that Ness has a bit of a hard time stringing hits on. With Dthrow -> Fair for example if Marth DI's away (or in some cases at lower % even takes the full brunt of the move) Marth will be out of hitstun fast enough to just Fair us back in the face before we can follow up with anything. For this same reason I don't really think magnet is worth it on out of dthrow as well. Weakspot Nair is our best tool out of dthrow as it allows us to regrab. In my head I'd imagine we could do something crazy like (starting from lower %) dthrow -> weakhit sh nair -> dtilt -> instant djc nair ->(magnet) Fair -> edgeguard? Idk. I'll have to try that out tonight.
DJC uairs chain on him as well until like 45-50% or so.
Also another thing I've been experimenting with is DJC Fair -> instant djc dair. The idea is to djc the Fair so low that you get only 2 or 3 hits out of it. Then instant djc dair as fast as possible. At higher % like 85-95 if you land it it can lead to a free bair or uair, both of which will generally kill. I'm not sure how DI will affect this combo. Again, something i'll try out tonight but it works on CPU Marth DI.
Marth is fortunately at a perfect weight for magnetdashing (SH -> magnet as soon as possible -> wavedash out). It allows us to combo him with magnet at like 60%+ where we would generally be unable to. For example at like 65% dthrow -> magnet dash -> fair -> dair.

Edgeguarding - I generally like to go offstage (surprise, surprise) vs Marth unless I know I can get a tippered Bat to punish a non-sweetspotted upB. Fair/Dair are our best options offstage since Nair will usually get us swatted. If Marth was recovering pretty low I could see using Nair but I've found it to be pretty unsafe.
Fair vs. recovering Marth is pretty safe imo since it will almost always trade at the very least, especially when Marth is sideB'ing to get back.
Dair works well since it will usually beat out or trade with Marth's upB if you're right above him due to the disjoint on Ness' foot.
I also rather like using Flash vs. Marth since he falls into the "linear recovery" section in my book.
Edgeguarding Marth though is pretty free for Ness if you can get him offstage. We have a plenty of options and can really influence/bully his recovery with fair/dair/flash/fsmash.

Recovering - IMO, always recover high vs Marth. Alwayssssss. Use magnet to help extend your aerial momentum and give you a better pkt angle. If you recover low vs Marth and the player is even somewhat competent you with 9/10 times eat either an FSmash or a Dair. Recovering high is much harder for Marth to cover and if he does cover it, he can't punish us quite as hard. Just always aim high and you should be alright, most of the time.

Stage Choice - Vs Marth I'll usually try to strike to either Dreamland or Smashville. Dreamland gives us survivability and extra platforms for us to land on when angling pkt2. Smashville is just a great neutral that won't get you screwed like Yoshi's or FoD. When counterpicking I'll usually aim for Skyworld (since I love that stage to butts) or maybe something like Skyloft/GHZ.
That said, avoid BOTH Yoshi's stages and FoD if possible. Maybe it's just me, but I have such a terrible time vs. Marth on Fountain. Warioware is debatable but I think I would try to avoid it.

MU Spread - This matchup is pretty bad for us IMO. It's hard to get in, and when we do Marth is just at a stupid weight for us to combo. If he forces us low he can dunk our recovery pretty well because disjoint.

65:35 Marth

I'll be streaming tonight (Feb 16) and my Marth buddy will be on stream if you want to come watch how I approach the mu in a friendly setting. Also there's plenty of archived footage from my stream too.

www.twitch.tv/bryonato
 
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SoniCraft

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#4
I don't have much experience against Marth, but I do play Marth, and I think that this description is fairly accurate. One thing I would change is the percentage to 60:40 because I don't think it's that terrible. To add to the discussion, I think that dash dancing would help bait a fair or possible fsmash. I think Ness has that kind of dash dance that can trick people.
 

choknater

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#5
haha mmm i still don't think the matchup is as one-sided as it might seem

i think with good fundamentals, ness has all the tools to keep the matchup even, even in the horizontal spacing and grab game
 

Kayo

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#6
MURRTH!! :marth:
I don't know much bout the marth matchup but I'll try.

  • Neutral game - Good reads, zoning with fire, WD OoS is a GOD SENT for me in this matchup. Wavedash backwards in general works very well in neutral if Marth is in the air. A couple mis-spaced aerials can lead to big punishes.
  • Comboing - Combo game seems pretty straight forward. Not too expansive and certainly not small. Just your basics. Fair > Grab > DThrow ->anything.
  • Edge guarding - As for edge guarding I don't have much other then a well spaced and well timed dair. Simple and effective for me. I'm sure there are more. I don't know 'em. :/
  • Stage Choice - I'm personally fond of bigger stages for Marth such as Dreamland, Ramble Falls and Drac's Castle. Like really big stages. My "go-tos" for Marth is Final D and Dreamland. Platforms don't really help in the match up for me at all. Avoid typical Marth stages like Yoshi's Story, WarioWare and maybe even stages like Yoshi's Island or even Battlefield if your not use to it.
  • Matchup Spread - I believe this matchup between two good equally skilled players that know each other play very well is 65:35. Definitely, Not the worse but certainly not the best.
  • Last note: You can DI the fthrow chain grab away but most likely how to tech somewhere. Of course, the same goes for fthrow > fsmash. And I've found good success recovering from above vs Marth as Bryonato said. One more thing. PK FIRE!!
:happysheep:
 
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#8
Neutral game- I agree that one should never throw a standing PK Fire, the only distances you don't get punished for it don't really do much for the spacing or bait game. I often find myself spacing with full hop and DJC PK Fire and occasionally go for a wd back bat.

Comboing- I particularly enjoy d-throw to RDJC Fair to PK Fire which generally can get a good bit of damage if they don't know how to DI to avoid the PK Fire other than that I generally go with the standard stuff such as d-throw->fair->regrab as long as I can. When they get to higher percentages I often chase with a PK Flash at the end of combos

Edge guarding- I often use PK Flash to edge guard but if I am feeling confident then I will use magnet to Dair to be fancy because his weight often sets him up perfectly to get hit.

Match-Up- as of right now I would say that it is almost certainly in Marth's favor but if the Ness is just obviously the better player he should win. I am thinking that it is probably around 65:35.

last note: Does down smash work safely at all for edge guarding or can his up B still hit far enough through the stage to force a trade?
 

Kayo

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#9
Not sure if I misunderstood you but you can't tech the fthrow regrab.
What I was talking was after the fthrow if you di away from marth at low% you would end up hitting the floor before you're out of hitstun.

Does down smash work safely at all for edge guarding or can his up B still hit far enough through the stage to force a trade?
Can anyone confirm or deny?
 

Bryonato

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#10
Comboing- I particularly enjoy d-throw to RDJC Fair to PK Fire which generally can get a good bit of damage if they don't know how to DI to avoid the PK Fire other than that I generally go with the standard stuff such as d-throw->fair->regrab as long as I can. When they get to higher percentages I often chase with a PK Flash at the end of combos
I still don't recommend fair out of dthrow. I've found sometimes it works, but if the Marth player is familiar with the mu he'll just fair you back in the face more often than you'd like.

Does down smash work safely at all for edge guarding or can his up B still hit far enough through the stage to force a trade?
I would imagine if usmash doesn't work, dsmash wouldn't either. Even if you did force a trade Marth would still likely make it back to the stage.
 
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choknater

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#12
ok well i think the ground game is honestly tied. there are three (or four) main things that marth can do to control the ground game. and let's not talk about fsmash cuz we all know how YOLO that is for marth

1. dd grab
2. fair/nair/dtilt/jab spacing
3. (dash attack approach)

dd grab is his most powerful tool against ness but there are some offensive things we can do to at least discourage this.
1a. max range ground pk fire - if used from max distance, he can't punish pk fire even if he jumps over it. he has to be running toward you already, and he greatly risks being hit
1b. sh fair - very strong initiator. the worst that will happen is trading with his fair, getting hit by his fsmash, getting countered, or getting shield grabbed. just gotta space it
1c. sh nair - gotta use this like peach. you can either go straight in and just do it, or run up, shield, bait out any move, dtilt, fair, fsmash, etc. and then punish it.
1d. dash attack - i know it sounds dumb but it's a move with far enough reach to poke through a dash dance. i use it when i'm feeling disrespectful lol

with our own dash dancing and fakeouts with the midair psi magnet DJC's there, there are many ways to outspace marth and bait out his pokes. his range is very tolerable with how fast ness moves

technically the marth should never stray away from focusing on his DD game, but some marths play differently and focus on spacing aerials and tilts. this is a little easier to deal with because all you have to do is space and punish him in midair if he gets too close, or just use your own DD grab. of course if his spacing is amazing it gets a little harder so here's some specifics on the defense

2a. nair out of shield - should be automatic if marth does anything too close. ofc shield grabbing is a stronger punish, but it won't catch everything, and if we nair out of shield we can at least move away. works well with both full hop and short hop
2b. full hop dair out of shield - pressure escape tool and out of shield punish, similar falcon's sh dair out of shield. learned this from watching awesten. ridiculous tactic. always full hop because if you short hop you can get punished if it's blocked or by a quick getup attack
2c. dd grab - the basic punish for a whiffed fair

i think all we really need to do is choose our options wisely. sometimes i see a lot of ness kinda throwing out djc fairs and bairs, but i can tell by the pace they're using them that they're not really watching the marth. and bair is not even a good spacing tool really. it's all about watching the marth because everything he does is punishable if you're in the right spot

also to edge guard marth, it's not smart to take any risks by jumping off the stage and going YOLO which a lot of nesses also do. his fair and up-B are too fast and strong. it's better to just pk flash, pk thunder, or edge hog. or just stand by the ledge and try to nail a non-sweetspot with fsmash or pk fire. edge hogging is the best option to do FIRST, just so the marth is forced to mixup sweetspot or not sweetspot.

3. i don't wanna talk to much about marth's dash attack.. it's a very YOLO attack, a very deep approach which sometimes hits just because we're not watching out for it. so to prevent it, max range grounded pk fires will force that respect from our side.

some general ideas... i think that ness ground speed and tools make the marth matchup very manageable. our air mobility is good for evasion but generally i think it's better to stay grounded and try to outpoke him, which is definitely possible.

fighting marth is, and always has been, about good spacing and footsies.

IMO slight marth 45:55, but barely... maybe even 50:50
 
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Bryonato

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#13
I can definitely agree/understand a lot of your points except for edge guarding. IMO we have plenty of tools to gimp him/get around Fair/upB (which I explained in my earlier wall of text).

I'll definitely be approaching this MU differently next time I play it after reading this.

Still can't stomach that it's even.
 
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#14
I agree that for the most part Marth can be manageable but at the same time I feel that stage choice can greatly change this match up the difference between a win can be whether you are at Yoshi's Story or Yoshi's Island
 

SpiderMad

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#16
Give me the run-down of how to own you guys, what's your worst stages primarily and why? What do I pick if you guys ban Yoshis story? Also my friend Octorok needs help on beating Link with Ness
 
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Bryonato

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#19
Well, it's Saturday. We can give Marth another week of discussion or choose another character for this week.
Give us your thoughts/vote
 

shadow0x0cloud

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#20
Just wanted to add that Marth is extremely limited when he is above you, dair lag can be punished and counter can be baited. Sometimes I find it better to upthrow than just auto pilot down throw.
 

Bryonato

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#21
Unless anyone has any objections I'm going to opt to extend the Marth discussion for another week. Bit disappointed with the lack of activity from a lot of other Ness players.
 

choknater

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#23
i think dthrow still offers a way better positional advantage vs uthrow. you can combo, and even if he jumps out to avoid your follow up, you have still made him waste his second jump and you are still below him.

and yea i agree with bryonato that we could see way more discussion on this. it's a very important matchup to learn

can confirm that link is very hard to get in on lol. played against a kinda ok/bad player last night and i still found it hard to fight his projectile game. just takes a TON of patience and good shielding.
 
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The_NZA

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#25
yea still waiting on input from gmaster, nza, red, sinb, just to name a few
Sorry for the wait but I'm here. Amazing topic here, and I just want to say it might be good to ALSO include a video section to post relevant games. I'll go ahead and post one of mine which I will highlight at several points to illustrate certain things I do.

The NZA v. Andrewajit's Marth:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dRMJ-_P1o98

1. Neutral game -
First important thing to understand: you never have to approach Marth. When I asked Mofo about this matchup, that was the first thing he underlined. It almost is never smart to try and go after Marth. I mean, just think about it--almost every other opponent can be pressured SAFELY with good spacing. If you hit a different characters shield and barely space it out, you can stay safe often but against Marth, this is impossible. Between that grab range and sword range, he will always punish you for making wrong decisions (which is where most non-top level players are going to have the biggest problems). This is one of those matchups that you should practice because you really have to have a great grasp of how far and fast a DJC fair will send you, versus a short hop fair, versus a magnet fair. On top of that, you also quickly learn how to abuse the angles DJC allows for, and as Bryon mentioned, hitting from a 45 degree angle above the horizon is an angle where you can beat out fsmash/jab.

fighting marth is, and always has been, about good spacing and footsies.
I couldn't agree more with this. It's like playing a jigglypuff who is even MORE momentum based in his punishes and is insanely dangerous when you are close to the edge. Most of the posts I've read have emphasized exploiting a bait-based neutral game and using pkfire, and I do much of that. Pkfire gives you free damage, lets the marth know he has to approach, creates safe openings to put on aggression, and puts your opponent off kilter. I disagree with people who say never do it grounded, but I do agree that you should do it with caution.

Beware though--marth is swift enough to dashdance away forcing the pkfire to activate without him actually getting stuck in it, and he can immediately jump over and start putting on aggression. So just because you see pkfire "land" doesn't mean marth actually got hit.

Watch the first stock of this match to see how I play the neutral game:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dRMJ-_P1o98

I keep relatively out of his range (and at maximum pkfire range). I mix between grounded and aerial pkfires. Occasionally, I magnet away from him, hoping he will approach and I quickly DJC fair into him. Other techniques include magnetting high (to see how he responds) and then pkfire or DJC fair down onto him. Stay away from nairs, dairs, or just magnet in his face in neutral. It won't work and you will be hurt.

One more tool I should bring up is Dash attack. Its got pretty solid range and is a good way to deal with Marth. The last hit has guaranteed combo followups at a lot of percents--some more deadly than others. If someone is less than 40%, you can get dash attack to sometimes combo into bair->bair. I honestly haven't tested this on Marth for specific percents...I just sort of feel it. but it is worth keeping in mind that this is also a good (although committal) option.

2. Comboing -
He's a funny weight. Sometimes if I dthrow to magnet followups, he will hit me before my magnet even comes out. Even if i try to magnet -> nair, most of the time, the nair won't hit him in a way that leads to a regrab. If it hits him at all, it will be because I full jumped it out of magnet rather than DJCd it (meaning it has less followups). For the 4% extra that magnet gives you, it doesn't seem to be a worthy risk. Instead, I'd go for nair or fair out of dthrow. Bryon says that marth can fair you even if you fair him, which TBH I haven't tested. I want to think if you get him with the strong hit of fair in the air, he can't counterattack but I'm not really sure.

But yeah, out of dthrow, fair or nair is best. Dair if you can, since it gives you better combo options. At mid/higher percents, you can fair->nair or fair->uair for a kill.

If you are really frisky, DJC fair (so only one or two hits land) to bat can work.

3. Edge guarding - Marth apparently has a bad recovery, but a good marth player will know how to mix it up. Remember, he can forward b and preserve his jump for when he wants to use it so keep an eye on him. If he has already used his jump, he's pretty predictable, so play the edgeguard reactively. If you so much as touch him, he's likely dead so you don't have to get a hard hit on him but it still can be difficult to land a hit at all.

A. Onstage, you can use a dsmash yoyo or bat to try and hit him, but remember--his upb pokes through a good segment of the stage so you really have to space it well. Bat hits below the ledge at certain angles--I'm bad at it, so I don't like it.

B. From the edge: you have a few options and they are good for different things.
a. One is grabbing the edge, using invincibility and do a reverse rising nair. This option is OKAY but if he sniffs it out, he can just quickly jump upb and recover high (and if you are in the middle of doing the rising nair, he'll be on stage before you will and he will punish you).
b. Theres simply grabbing the edge forcing him to recover on stage, and punishing his ending lag. You can punish his ending lag with a simple ledge jump->wavedash->grab, Or a ledge jump-> DJC dair.
c. There's the drop down fast fall nair from the edge. This is good if he's stalling below the stage by using his double jump to delay his timing and confuse you if you want to punish him. If you drop down fast fall nair, remember that you might have to tech if his upb hits you (hopefully your invincibility will protect you). This option is always surprising because ness is one of the only characters that can do a fastfall aerial from the edge and still make it back.

C. Off stage: This needs to be said about offstage edge guarding against a high caliber of Marth: it is ALWAYS risky. Not only because if he makes it back before you, it's hell. But also because if he dairs you, he can take you down with him at virtually any percent. Don't do the off stage edge guard unless you are willing to trade a stock at worst. With that said, off stage edge guarding marth is amazing. This is because even a fair can kill him, and marth's variability in his recovery all comes from when he's in range of the stage. If you bring the fight to him, he can no longer do things like "preserve his jump" or "stall longer with side b". He has to deal with you, or else he won't be where he needs to be in order to make a safe recovery. Best of all, Marth has NO quick scary aerials off stage. Dair commits him to death, fair won't hurt you unless it stage spikes, and if he does any other aerial, he'll probably die.

My suggestion would be jump outward aiming to fair or nair him, and either nair and try to trade with his attack and jump -> upb to safety. OR do a rising fair and recover to safety. The risk of doing a double jump is that if he hits you, your upb might not be enough to recover. Dair is okay as an edgeguard, but its usually less reliable than fair or nair, and its unnecessary since marth can't horizontally recover once you've hit him with anything at all anyways.

4. Recovering:Try your best not to recover low. A few times in my match, I pkfire while i'm recovering and don't make it back onto the stage. As a result i'm forced to recover low and I eat a fsmash. Don't be like me. Either Pkthunder to the edge so you sweetspot it, or pkthunder 2 high, or DJ to airdodge. It's always good to delay the PKT1 by looping it an extra long pathway if you think he's going to just fsmash you.

When you are on the edge, pulling away and doing a rising fair is always good. BUT it will be punished by a marth who simply walks backwards and fsmashes (leaving you without a jump). Ledge jump DJC fair might be a good way to react.

5. Stage Choice:Marth likes platforms much more than we do. If he's under a platform, utilt will seriously **** us up. Big stages are nice (Dracula's, Skyworld, DL64). Personally, stay away form any stage with a short side blastzone. PS2, FoD, YI Melee and smashville can be a problem for this reason (since a badly di'd fsmash on the edge can lead to absurdly low percent kills). I'd try and strike to FD, DL64, and maybe PS2 if I had to.

I will say that I disagree heavily with people who don't like YI:Brawl for this matchup. I think YI:Brawl doesn't have that disruptive platforms, and it has a relatively medium-short ceiling while having wide sides. Ness kills vertically and horizontally while Marth kills almost exclusively horizontally. So YI gives us uair kill possibilities while still retaining our horizontal liveability.
6. MU spread is 70-30 or 65-35. Just because Marth has to approach doesn't mean his approach isn't so much better than our defense. On top of that, dair seriously screws us up and a smart marth player can convert kills on Ness at abusrdly low percentages. By contrast, we have really bad kill options on marth. Grabs are hard to land at high percents once fair goes out the window, so he's just as hard to take care of at higher percentages as we are. Dair is nice and all but it can be hard to find a marth who spaces poorly and lands close enough to eat a rising dair out of shield. Straight dairing him in neutral is just all aroudn risky. And once he learns how to carefully invade your space AND avoid pkfires, it becomes even harder.

Basically, a patient marth who avoids pkfires and plays safely without overextending should always win this matchup. Especially if he's smart about edgeguarding ness with fsmash's and dairs (and he has NO problem getting us off the stage once he starts grabbing).

7. Extra Stuff:
Normally extra stuff could be seen as extra random info, but for Marth, this information is fundamental for every Ness player to know:

Marth's fthrow sends you forward and his dthrow sends you behind him, so you can always be thrown towards the edge. If you DI towards him when he's throwing you away from himself, you almost always run the risk of eating a tippered fsmash. This IS a kill at 50% on Smashville (near the edge). If a marth DI's you near the edge of a stage ALWAYS DI away from the stage. Doesn't mater if he grabs you on your right side, or on your left--on the right side of the stage or the left, the rule should be golden. Never DI towards the stage if you are grabbed near the edge.

At higher percents, that advice might not be optimal, but it will at least keep you safe.

The other thing to keep in mind is that Marth's fair leads to a bunch of other stuff. If he tipper fairs you, you are sent straight up, but if he sourspot fairs you, you get sent up and away. In response, you should either DI away from him, or away and down depending on which you are expecting to prevent yourself from getting combo'd forever. We are very tasty combo food for Marth, so do what you can to escape once he has something started.
 
Last edited:

Bryonato

Green Hat
Premium
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#26
I feel like falling nair from the ledge, when marth is below you, is just going to get you stage spiked from his upB. Dair seems safer.
 

The_NZA

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 7, 2007
Messages
1,979
#27
ideally your invincibility frames will carry you through, but yes, the stage spike is always a possibility. You have to input the wall tech just in case. Otherwise, I don't know why dair would be safer since its just as likely to trade with his upb in my experience rather than straight out beat it.
 

Bryonato

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Apr 24, 2012
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Lewiston, ID
#28
We're probably imagining slightly different scenarios. I feel that dair would be more likely to trade but maybe we're thinking of doing this at slightly different times/angles
 

Bryonato

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Premium
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Apr 24, 2012
Messages
1,294
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Lewiston, ID
#29
Still welcoming Marth discussion, but I'm also taking votes for next week's character as of now.

Sorry for the wait but I'm here. Amazing topic here, and I just want to say it might be good to ALSO include a video section to post relevant games. I'll go ahead and post one of mine which I will highlight at several points to illustrate certain things I do.
thats what the extra stuff section is for
 
Last edited:

Red(SP)

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 2, 2010
Messages
261
Location
Sakazaki Dojo
#32
[11/12/2013 8:10:49 PM] RedSP: Yo guys.
[11/12/2013 8:11:10 PM] RedSP: So I played wifi (yeah, odd I'd say that) the other day against my bud Hex in Cali.
[11/12/2013 8:11:18 PM] RedSP: His Marth is slick, but it made me realize.
[11/12/2013 8:11:31 PM] Tatsuman: Online Ness is the Devil?
[11/12/2013 8:11:31 PM] RedSP: Ness vs. Marth = Ryu vs. Akuma (SF4 AE)
[11/12/2013 8:11:38 PM] RedSP: Nahhh, not really.
[11/12/2013 8:11:46 PM] Tatsuman: I can't play Ness on WiFi.
[11/12/2013 8:11:48 PM] RedSP: There was like minor input delay.
[11/12/2013 8:12:05 PM] RedSP: It took me a while to get the Elias on him, after warming up to the feel.
[11/12/2013 8:12:16 PM] RedSP: Elias = djc f-air > homerun
[11/12/2013 8:12:27 PM] gameboymark: I can play ness online but I have to play like Brawl.
[11/12/2013 8:12:36 PM] Tatsuman: Noice.
[11/12/2013 8:12:41 PM] gameboymark: It's very boring. :p
[11/12/2013 8:12:50 PM] Tatsuman: But yeah, how do you mean?
[11/12/2013 8:12:59 PM] Tatsuman: About the Ryu v Akuma matchup.
[11/12/2013 8:13:10 PM] RedSP: Well, I'm sure you might be in the know about
[11/12/2013 8:13:20 PM] RedSP: the Daigo vs Infiltration FT10 that went down.
[11/12/2013 8:13:24 PM] RedSP: Quite a while ago.
[11/12/2013 8:13:44 PM] Tatsuman: Daigo taking a steamy poop all over Infiltration, I remember.
[11/12/2013 8:14:13 PM] RedSP: I believe the score was 10-2, but there was an interview with Daigo.
[11/12/2013 8:14:19 PM] RedSP: I think he wrote a book on the MU too.
[11/12/2013 8:14:40 PM] gameboymark: Lol
[11/12/2013 8:14:59 PM] Tatsuman: Not sure, but go on?
[11/12/2013 8:15:32 PM] RedSP: Let me quote the article, it was more percise in some things I wanted to point out.
[11/12/2013 8:15:37 PM] Bryon Rothfusz: the score was 10-0
[11/12/2013 8:15:52 PM] Bryon Rothfusz: daigo only dropped 2 rounds but never a set
[11/12/2013 8:15:59 PM] RedSP: Wat.
[11/12/2013 8:16:05 PM] RedSP: I could've sworn it was 10-2.
[11/12/2013 8:16:08 PM] Bryon Rothfusz: nope
[11/12/2013 8:16:14 PM] Bryon Rothfusz: OHWAIT
[11/12/2013 8:16:22 PM] Bryon Rothfusz: i'm thinking of daigo vs xian
[11/12/2013 8:16:23 PM] Tatsuman: It wasn't 10-0
[11/12/2013 8:16:23 PM] RedSP: He picked up on it after a while.
[11/12/2013 8:16:26 PM] Tatsuman: It was 10-2
[11/12/2013 8:16:33 PM] RedSP: @Infiltration
[11/12/2013 8:16:38 PM] Bryon Rothfusz: yeah i'm thinking daigo vs xian
[11/12/2013 8:16:41 PM] Bryon Rothfusz: dont mind me
[11/12/2013 8:18:57 PM] RedSP: "Daigo begins by explaining that he started by analyzing the footsie game between Ryu and Akuma. Due to Akuma's limbs reaching farther, and him having better walk speed, he concluded that Ryu was at a disadvantage in the footsie game."
[11/12/2013 8:19:04 PM] RedSP: This in particular is relevant.
[11/12/2013 8:19:43 PM] RedSP: It was brought up that Ness' zoning game is pretty bad. But, in comparison to Marth this is quite evident in the MU alone.
[11/12/2013 8:19:48 PM] RedSP: He's quite stubby.
[11/12/2013 8:20:34 PM] Tatsuman: In terms of range, it's kind of obvious that Ness loses to Marth, I agree.
[11/12/2013 8:21:11 PM] RedSP: "He then noted that if Ryu can't win in footsies, then the next step would have to be to analyze the fireball game. While Ryu's fireball is more powerful, fireballs still trade evenly, which means you need to consider the other options for dealing with fireballs."
[11/12/2013 8:21:31 PM] RedSP: This isn't quite relevant, seeing how Marth does carry any projectile game of the sort.
[11/12/2013 8:21:35 PM] RedSP: *doesn't
[11/12/2013 8:22:27 PM] RedSP: But the thing with Ness' fireball game *cough pk fire cough* is that he has to really be cautious about how he goes about his spacing of the move and the overall execution following behind it.
[11/12/2013 8:22:38 PM] RedSP: When to use ground or aerial PK Fire.
[11/12/2013 8:23:40 PM] Tatsuman: Agreed. Max Range PK Fire is pretty damned safe against Marf though.
[11/12/2013 8:26:40 PM] RedSP: "So if Ryu is at a disadvantage both in the fireball game and the footsie game, then what exactly is left? Daigo explains that the next stage is to examine the character's power. While Akuma may have more damage fundamentally, Ryu has a lot more health, and also has easy ways to combo into his Ultra, which Akuma does not. With that in mind, it's safe to say that Ryu is at an advantage in pure power."
[11/12/2013 8:27:40 PM] RedSP: I'll be honest, this one really stuck out to me. Marth is a very formidable opponent. The thing is, is that both characters can take their opposer's stocks in about 5-10 seconds.
[11/12/2013 8:28:01 PM] RedSP: The comparison of the Ultra in this case was PK Fire and the followups after it.
[11/12/2013 8:28:19 PM] RedSP: Since Marth is actually at a pretty good weight for magnet combos to work traditionally.
[11/12/2013 8:28:33 PM] RedSP: Or bnbs like d-throw > f-air > grab.
[11/12/2013 8:28:47 PM] RedSP: PK Fire hit confirm is really good in this case.
[11/12/2013 8:29:09 PM] RedSP: But when I put that to mind, I realized what you guys were referring to by his moveset being really overcentralized by PK Fire.
[11/12/2013 8:30:43 PM] RedSP: This became more evident as the neutral game was of mere psyching each other out. I think the longest we went without hitting each other was about 20 seconds before I got a djc (double tap jump) > b-air.
[11/12/2013 8:30:58 PM] RedSP: But then I got a little bit to greedy and he got a hit on me.
[11/12/2013 8:31:22 PM] RedSP: About 5 seconds to 10 seconds after he hit me and got my to 12%, he completely decimated me on my first stock.
[11/12/2013 8:31:35 PM] RedSP: I counted 5 seconds on the combo to death.
[11/12/2013 8:32:44 PM] RedSP: In a weird sense, I felt like if I utilized PK Fire to my best, I was winning that footsie game.
[11/12/2013 8:33:23 PM] RedSP: He stage teched my yo-yo gimps a ton, but I wasn't surprised because he said he practiced a ton.
[11/12/2013 8:33:30 PM] RedSP: I adjusted accordingly.
[11/12/2013 8:33:48 PM] Mark: PK Fire is really good in the Marth Matchup.
[11/12/2013 8:34:02 PM] Mark: One of the few matchups I use it in.
[11/12/2013 8:34:56 PM] Tatsuman: I use PK Fire all the time.
[11/12/2013 8:35:12 PM] Mark: No reason not too. Lol
[11/12/2013 8:35:13 PM] RedSP: I really need to work on adjusting more efficiently. I can't wait two matches to warm up via 3-4 stocks and then start playing at my best.
[11/12/2013 8:35:30 PM] RedSP: Because if this were a tournament environment, I'd be in losers already.
[11/12/2013 8:35:44 PM] Tatsuman: Indeed.
[11/12/2013 8:36:03 PM | Edited 8:36:04 PM] Mark: That's why friendlies exsist
[11/12/2013 8:36:12 PM | Edited 8:36:15 PM] Mark: C'mon people
[11/12/2013 8:36:55 PM] Tatsuman: Though that Ryu comparison does work on one level, I'd actually argue that the character archetypes are the opposite.
[11/12/2013 8:38:47 PM] Tatsuman: Marth plays more of a fundamentals game, much like Ryu. Aside from his range, the amount of tricks he has in his bag are remarkably few.
[11/12/2013 8:39:53 PM] Tatsuman: The tricks that are there however are incredibly effective ones, and are generally polished to a mirror finish by people who play him.
[11/12/2013 8:43:53 PM] Tatsuman: Ness is more of an obtuse sort of character. Though he's slower than Marth on paper, he does have the potential to be far more mobile, particularly on stages with multiple platforms.

I gave an insight about this MU about 4 months ago. I know it's rather old and outdated, but I think it's something worth contributing to.
 
Last edited:

The_NZA

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 7, 2007
Messages
1,979
#33
[11/12/2013 8:10:49 PM] RedSP: Yo guys.
[11/12/2013 8:11:10 PM] RedSP: So I played wifi (yeah, odd I'd say that) the other day against my bud Hex in Cali.
[11/12/2013 8:11:18 PM] RedSP: His Marth is slick, but it made me realize.
[11/12/2013 8:11:31 PM] Tatsuman: Online Ness is the Devil?
[11/12/2013 8:11:31 PM] RedSP: Ness vs. Marth = Ryu vs. Akuma (SF4 AE)
[11/12/2013 8:11:38 PM] RedSP: Nahhh, not really.
[11/12/2013 8:11:46 PM] Tatsuman: I can't play Ness on WiFi.
[11/12/2013 8:11:48 PM] RedSP: There was like minor input delay.
[11/12/2013 8:12:05 PM] RedSP: It took me a while to get the Elias on him, after warming up to the feel.
[11/12/2013 8:12:16 PM] RedSP: Elias = djc f-air > homerun
[11/12/2013 8:12:27 PM] gameboymark: I can play ness online but I have to play like Brawl.
[11/12/2013 8:12:36 PM] Tatsuman: Noice.
[11/12/2013 8:12:41 PM] gameboymark: It's very boring. :p
[11/12/2013 8:12:50 PM] Tatsuman: But yeah, how do you mean?
[11/12/2013 8:12:59 PM] Tatsuman: About the Ryu v Akuma matchup.
[11/12/2013 8:13:10 PM] RedSP: Well, I'm sure you might be in the know about
[11/12/2013 8:13:20 PM] RedSP: the Daigo vs Infiltration FT10 that went down.
[11/12/2013 8:13:24 PM] RedSP: Quite a while ago.
[11/12/2013 8:13:44 PM] Tatsuman: Daigo taking a steamy poop all over Infiltration, I remember.
[11/12/2013 8:14:13 PM] RedSP: I believe the score was 10-2, but there was an interview with Daigo.
[11/12/2013 8:14:19 PM] RedSP: I think he wrote a book on the MU too.
[11/12/2013 8:14:40 PM] gameboymark: Lol
[11/12/2013 8:14:59 PM] Tatsuman: Not sure, but go on?
[11/12/2013 8:15:32 PM] RedSP: Let me quote the article, it was more percise in some things I wanted to point out.
[11/12/2013 8:15:37 PM] Bryon Rothfusz: the score was 10-0
[11/12/2013 8:15:52 PM] Bryon Rothfusz: daigo only dropped 2 rounds but never a set
[11/12/2013 8:15:59 PM] RedSP: Wat.
[11/12/2013 8:16:05 PM] RedSP: I could've sworn it was 10-2.
[11/12/2013 8:16:08 PM] Bryon Rothfusz: nope
[11/12/2013 8:16:14 PM] Bryon Rothfusz: OHWAIT
[11/12/2013 8:16:22 PM] Bryon Rothfusz: i'm thinking of daigo vs xian
[11/12/2013 8:16:23 PM] Tatsuman: It wasn't 10-0
[11/12/2013 8:16:23 PM] RedSP: He picked up on it after a while.
[11/12/2013 8:16:26 PM] Tatsuman: It was 10-2
[11/12/2013 8:16:33 PM] RedSP: @Infiltration
[11/12/2013 8:16:38 PM] Bryon Rothfusz: yeah i'm thinking daigo vs xian
[11/12/2013 8:16:41 PM] Bryon Rothfusz: dont mind me
[11/12/2013 8:18:57 PM] RedSP: "Daigo begins by explaining that he started by analyzing the footsie game between Ryu and Akuma. Due to Akuma's limbs reaching farther, and him having better walk speed, he concluded that Ryu was at a disadvantage in the footsie game."
[11/12/2013 8:19:04 PM] RedSP: This in particular is relevant.
[11/12/2013 8:19:43 PM] RedSP: It was brought up that Ness' zoning game is pretty bad. But, in comparison to Marth this is quite evident in the MU alone.
[11/12/2013 8:19:48 PM] RedSP: He's quite stubby.
[11/12/2013 8:20:34 PM] Tatsuman: In terms of range, it's kind of obvious that Ness loses to Marth, I agree.
[11/12/2013 8:21:11 PM] RedSP: "He then noted that if Ryu can't win in footsies, then the next step would have to be to analyze the fireball game. While Ryu's fireball is more powerful, fireballs still trade evenly, which means you need to consider the other options for dealing with fireballs."
[11/12/2013 8:21:31 PM] RedSP: This isn't quite relevant, seeing how Marth does carry any projectile game of the sort.
[11/12/2013 8:21:35 PM] RedSP: *doesn't
[11/12/2013 8:22:27 PM] RedSP: But the thing with Ness' fireball game *cough pk fire cough* is that he has to really be cautious about how he goes about his spacing of the move and the overall execution following behind it.
[11/12/2013 8:22:38 PM] RedSP: When to use ground or aerial PK Fire.
[11/12/2013 8:23:40 PM] Tatsuman: Agreed. Max Range PK Fire is pretty damned safe against Marf though.
[11/12/2013 8:26:40 PM] RedSP: "So if Ryu is at a disadvantage both in the fireball game and the footsie game, then what exactly is left? Daigo explains that the next stage is to examine the character's power. While Akuma may have more damage fundamentally, Ryu has a lot more health, and also has easy ways to combo into his Ultra, which Akuma does not. With that in mind, it's safe to say that Ryu is at an advantage in pure power."
[11/12/2013 8:27:40 PM] RedSP: I'll be honest, this one really stuck out to me. Marth is a very formidable opponent. The thing is, is that both characters can take their opposer's stocks in about 5-10 seconds.
[11/12/2013 8:28:01 PM] RedSP: The comparison of the Ultra in this case was PK Fire and the followups after it.
[11/12/2013 8:28:19 PM] RedSP: Since Marth is actually at a pretty good weight for magnet combos to work traditionally.
[11/12/2013 8:28:33 PM] RedSP: Or bnbs like d-throw > f-air > grab.
[11/12/2013 8:28:47 PM] RedSP: PK Fire hit confirm is really good in this case.
[11/12/2013 8:29:09 PM] RedSP: But when I put that to mind, I realized what you guys were referring to by his moveset being really overcentralized by PK Fire.
[11/12/2013 8:30:43 PM] RedSP: This became more evident as the neutral game was of mere psyching each other out. I think the longest we went without hitting each other was about 20 seconds before I got a djc (double tap jump) > b-air.
[11/12/2013 8:30:58 PM] RedSP: But then I got a little bit to greedy and he got a hit on me.
[11/12/2013 8:31:22 PM] RedSP: About 5 seconds to 10 seconds after he hit me and got my to 12%, he completely decimated me on my first stock.
[11/12/2013 8:31:35 PM] RedSP: I counted 5 seconds on the combo to death.
[11/12/2013 8:32:44 PM] RedSP: In a weird sense, I felt like if I utilized PK Fire to my best, I was winning that footsie game.
[11/12/2013 8:33:23 PM] RedSP: He stage teched my yo-yo gimps a ton, but I wasn't surprised because he said he practiced a ton.
[11/12/2013 8:33:30 PM] RedSP: I adjusted accordingly.
[11/12/2013 8:33:48 PM] Mark: PK Fire is really good in the Marth Matchup.
[11/12/2013 8:34:02 PM] Mark: One of the few matchups I use it in.
[11/12/2013 8:34:56 PM] Tatsuman: I use PK Fire all the time.
[11/12/2013 8:35:12 PM] Mark: No reason not too. Lol
[11/12/2013 8:35:13 PM] RedSP: I really need to work on adjusting more efficiently. I can't wait two matches to warm up via 3-4 stocks and then start playing at my best.
[11/12/2013 8:35:30 PM] RedSP: Because if this were a tournament environment, I'd be in losers already.
[11/12/2013 8:35:44 PM] Tatsuman: Indeed.
[11/12/2013 8:36:03 PM | Edited 8:36:04 PM] Mark: That's why friendlies exsist
[11/12/2013 8:36:12 PM | Edited 8:36:15 PM] Mark: C'mon people
[11/12/2013 8:36:55 PM] Tatsuman: Though that Ryu comparison does work on one level, I'd actually argue that the character archetypes are the opposite.
[11/12/2013 8:38:47 PM] Tatsuman: Marth plays more of a fundamentals game, much like Ryu. Aside from his range, the amount of tricks he has in his bag are remarkably few.
[11/12/2013 8:39:53 PM] Tatsuman: The tricks that are there however are incredibly effective ones, and are generally polished to a mirror finish by people who play him.
[11/12/2013 8:43:53 PM] Tatsuman: Ness is more of an obtuse sort of character. Though he's slower than Marth on paper, he does have the potential to be far more mobile, particularly on stages with multiple platforms.

I gave an insight about this MU about 4 months ago. I know it's rather old and outdated, but I think it's something worth contributing to.
 

Bryonato

Green Hat
Premium
Joined
Apr 24, 2012
Messages
1,294
Location
Lewiston, ID
#37
Aight, Zero Suit. My experience is limited to a player that only plays her as a tertiary but I'll provide what I can.

Neutral: ZSS certainly has a number of options from neutral with dc laser -> nair coverage. Side b can zone decently well and the tip is safe on shield. Her shffl game in general is very strong. However I don't feel we suffer at all really in this aspect of the game. Retreating, wb, djc, spaced grounded etc. pkfire works great on giving us space and breathing room. ZSS is FAST though with a great wd so being on top of your footsie game is very important, especially considering all the footsies zss has.
I generally don't advise using magnet to absorb her laser due to absorb lag/zss run speed. Maybe if she shot it offstage or something or you were absorbing fully charged laser at the other end of the stage. Idk.
ALSO: I remember seeing Nick Riddle/Shaky abuse absorbing dsmash with magnet in brawl doubles. Can we still do this? I'd imagine it would be very situational but if we got a hard read and absorbed that could be pretty cool.
I find we can hop over her lasers and sh/djc fair fairly (heh) easily. I'm not sure what an experienced zss player would do to counter this. Not sure if her nair would stuff us out.
ZSS is also (from what I've seen in Oro's games) able to provide relatively safe shield pressure with laser -> shffld bair and other mixups. Something to watch out for. Her tilt game is also very exceptional with utilt having considerable suction/disjoint off the sides and dtilt just being godlike.

Comboing: ZSS is a moderate fast faller. If she DI's anything else except for away from our dthrow it's a free followup whether it be magnet -> djc nair, fair, djc uair (which chains at low to mid%), which leads to further followups depending on what you did. If she *does* DI away though, I'm not sure that we could cg but if anything we can tech chase -> regrab. Think of it like dthrowing CF. Afaik at lower % if she di's away she'll be able to tech before we can fair, djc or otherwise. I havent tried uthrow at low % but I would think she would be able to jump or down b out. Not sure.
Magnet links fairly well into everything since ZSS is at a very good weight for us combo wise. Uair strings and can lead into a regrab. Her OoS game from my experience isn't super amazing (grab is slow, bair hitbox is small, dair is slow, nair could work but idk. I guess I could see uair oos), so I would think we could pressure her fairly well with mag -> djc aerial crossups or djc nair -> dtilt pressure.
Was just talking with Gmaster in skype and he said "she's pretty much a slower falling falcon." That should give you a good idea of what to expect in the combo game.
IIRC Zss is also super light so nair works well as a finisher and bair ofc will kill between 90-110, and is free if they don't di away from dthrow at higher %, which from watching people play ness is various different regions NOBODY DIS AWAY FROM DTHROW. idk why.

Edgeguarding: ZSS is imo pretty slippery in her recovery and has a number of different options. If I were to write this up a week ago I would've said we didn't really have an answer to her tether jump while we're holding the edge, but now thanks to LJC technology we can punish her pretty hard. At higher % LJC nair if spaced properly i would imagine could send her backwards offstage again. Maybe LJC -> Magnet dash -> bair? IDK. Theorycrafting. All i'm saying is that we have plenty of options with LJC.
I actually kind of like flash vs ZSS since if anything it can force her to respond and recover from a more poor position.
Nair offstage works wonders vs zss. You can go really deep because she doesn't really have the tools to respond to you. Most important part is reading when she'll jump/downb and reacting. Same sentiment works with fair or dair. I also like wd off the ledge -> nair/dair or bair esp. if she's going to tether because sometimes you'll be able to catch her mid tether and stage spike or just flat out kill her.
I'm not sure how yoyo would work vs tether. Would it interrupt while she's reeling in the tether? I could see dsmash here since it could stage spike.

Recovering: Try not to recover low because dsmash, obv. Generally if she gets a dsmash for us as we're coming back on stage is a free tippered bair/fsmash for her. Magnet stalling always helps. Theoretical: If we're hanging on the ledge and expect/read a dsmash, we might be able to ledgedrop -> instant magnet and then rising fair. Hm.
Try to abuse platforms when recovering high since ZSS has a lot of tools to punish our recovery when we land with sideb, grab, fsmash, etc. Really don't have a lot of advice to give in this aspect.

Stage choice: Not too sure about this one. I could see arguments for a smaller stage like YS or WW since ZSS is light and we can kill of the side well, esp. with bair/nair. Don't know how platforms play into this one.

MU Spread: From my experience this matchup feels generally even. I could maybe see arguments for a 45:55 but I feel confident in 50:50.

Extra stuff: Next time I play with my ZSS player friend I'll post some links.
 
Joined
Aug 26, 2012
Messages
676
Location
Halifax, NS
#38
I feel like in this matchup we need to play the passive/keepaway game, as ZSS has the range to stuff our approaches (laser, nair, uair, tilts, even grabs) and the mobility to combo us hard. Running around underneath platforms or on high platforms seems preferable.

I wouldn't magnet in response to lasers OR dsmash (which we can absorb). absorbing either leaves us with a little more health, but at a disadvantage (the magnet lag is around the same as the end lag on d-smash, but then we have to JC it, so she is still in the better spot).

WDOOS is something really important here, letting us weave in and out safely and potentially punish over extensions or get in place to cause a whiff.

Comboing her is like any other mid weight, uair chains at low %s, magnet fair regrabs, uair->uair stuff. I havent played against her much but she feels like Marth/Sheik weight.

My thoughts on edge guarding is to snipe her with PKT actually, if we catch her out of her jump, she will be forced to up-b if she is close enough, which we could grab ledge before, or she will down-b which leaves her open and vulnerable from above (as she cant up-b till late, and footstool is only from below). One thing to note is she can walljump out of down-b, so flat side stages should be avoided (GHZ, Yoshis, WW)

expanding on stage choice, imo we need a high middle platform to retreat to, and wide edges as thats how ZSS kills (compared to our vertical based killing). getting caught by nair->uair->fair off stage on WW and dying under 50% is sad. I feel like Skyloft is one of our better stages against her, despite the wall on the right and the slopes (I hate slopes). Other mentions are SV and BF.

as Bryon said, recovery from below will almost never work, d-smash will catch us out of it almost every time. If we are caught there, our best bet is to mash out the stun while DIing for bair and preparing to tech a stage spike. after the stun wears off we are sitting ducks, so... DI for moves lol. from above we still can get caught by the massive uair, but it shouldnt kill us till later %s and we can DI to land eventually.

Id say slightly in her favor, but I haven't played against ZSS much, only as her as a third character.
 
Joined
Jan 24, 2014
Messages
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Location
Houston, TX
#39
Hey guys I got a question about the Marth MU, sorry I'm late to the party and I know we're discussing ZSS right now. But I have so much trouble vs. Marth. I know it's a bad matchup for Ness but I definitely think it's doable. If someone could answer my questions I'd love them forever. Please don't infract me for talking Marth late!

1. How should I DI out of the fthrow chaingrab? Like specific inputs would be nice.

2. When I try to approach I usually just get shield grabbed. We all know about Marth's grab range and when Ness is in on Marth that usually means he's within grab range. Getting up close and DJCing PKF usually just gets me grabbed during the startup of that move. And as you all know, getting grabbed by Marth really hurts. So what are some approach techniques I can use to keep from getting shield grabbed?

3. I find that a lot of times when I'm falling down from the upper part of the screen I have no idea how to come down. Ness can't really trade with Marth's uair advantageously (unless there's something I don't know) . What are some techniques you use to come down safely on Marth?

4. What are some ways you really maximize the damage you get from PK fire hits? Do you dtilt or knockback stack with fsmash or what?

Thanks for the help guys, I really appreciate it.
 

The_NZA

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 7, 2007
Messages
1,979
#40
1. How should I DI out of the fthrow chaingrab? Like specific inputs would be nice.
I don't think its DIable, but the main thing you want to avoid is the tippered fsmash on bad DI. Marth's fthrow sends you forward and his dthrow sends you behind, so he has ways to get you on either side of him. If he's carrying you accross the stage, and he has you close to the edge, remember to always DI away from the stage. If you DI towards the stage, you risk a tippered fsmash and insta death. Besides that, I'd say DI hard away from him and aim to dtilt to get out of pressure.

2. When I try to approach I usually just get shield grabbed. We all know about Marth's grab range and when Ness is in on Marth that usually means he's within grab range. Getting up close and DJCing PKF usually just gets me grabbed during the startup of that move. And as you all know, getting grabbed by Marth really hurts. So what are some approach techniques I can use to keep from getting shield grabbed?
Don't approach unless you know you can get in. This is entirely what "footsies" is. Don't do a committal DJC pkfire that puts you in front of him--opt for a full jump pk fire, or a rising fair to a retreating aerial pkfire. Do grounded pkfires at maximum range, or opt for the last hit of dash attack. Personally, I do a lot of wding back, and aerial magnet stall mindgames to wait for him to commit. Once he's committed badly, I go in.

Tl:dr you shouldn't ever have to approach marth.


3. I find that a lot of times when I'm falling down from the upper part of the screen I have no idea how to come down. Ness can't really trade with Marth's uair advantageously (unless there's something I don't know) . What are some techniques you use to come down safely on Marth?
Air dodging is your best bet. You might still get hit AFTER the air dodge, but it will hopefully be in a horizontal direction instead of a continuation of a juggle. Your other options are magnet stall, and if you feel particularly screwed, pkt1 at the Marth, or PKt2 towards the ground (the last option shoudl not be underestimated).



4. What are some ways you really maximize the damage you get from PK fire hits? Do you dtilt or knockback stack with fsmash or what?

Thanks for the help guys, I really appreciate it.
Anything and everything. Most marths are smart enough to DI up and away (especially since the character is already kind of light), so grabbing can be ineffective. If you read your opponent is responding correctly to your punish decisions, I'd say you should just dair him.
 
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