[MU] Fox

[MrFrigid]

I ran into a very pro fox today, and I wasn't able to beat him once out of like ~8-9 rounds. The reflector rules out a large percentage of projectile use, and he's incredibly fast and able to combo link without problems. Keeping him mid-far range is not that great because he has a laser WHICH HITS THROUGH LINKS SHIELD.

I'm guessing the best way to beat him would have been footsies and spacing so i can hit with jab/f-tilt/utilt juggles?

 

[LightLelouch89]

I ran into a very pro fox today, and I wasn't able to beat him once out of like ~8-9 rounds. The reflector rules out a large percentage of projectile use, and he's incredibly fast and able to combo link without problems. Keeping him mid-far range is not that great because he has a laser WHICH HITS THROUGH LINKS SHIELD.

I'm guessing the best way to beat him would have been footsies and spacing so i can hit with jab/f-tilt/utilt juggles?

Other people may have different approaches to this MU, but here's what I do: This may seem counter-intuive, but I use projectiles just as much against Fox players as I do anyone else.Sometimes moreso. I want to get in the other player's head. I want to create a lot of pressure. I want the other player to think they have to use the reflector the whole match. I especially want him to use the reflector at moments when I'm not throwing projectiles. At higher percentages, there will be many times when one misuse of the reflector can determine the outcome of a match. I watch for those moments carefully.

Now obviously you can't just sit there and hold the arrow button down all day. That's gonna get you killed against any competent player. What you can do is fire arrows midair while he is on the ground. Even if Fox reflects, the arrow won't hit you when it gets redirected. You can also shield yourself immediately after throwing the projectile to block (although you won't have time to do this on a reflected fully charged arrow or a close range boomerang).

The laser isn't that big of a deal. That just means more chances to hit him with arrows or scare him into spamming the reflector.

Other than that, standard Link tactics should do. Block/dodge his dash attack, rack up damage with jab/tilts, don't get caught up in his juggles, don't be predictable. The last one is especially against Fox due to his speed advantage.

 

[MrFrigid]

Thanks for the advice My biggest problem was getting caught up in juggles, because I wasn't aware of how amazing links recovery game can be and how he can go from recovering to controlling the situation.

 

[Zane the pure]

When being juggled it's also vitally important to know when and what direction to to vector to shorten the combos or counter it.

 

[MrFrigid]

Vectoring is kinda easy

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Other people may have different approaches to this MU, but here's what I do: This may seem counter-intuive, but I use projectiles just as much against Fox players as I do anyone else.Sometimes moreso. I want to get in the other player's head. I want to create a lot of pressure. I want the other player to think they have to use the reflector the whole match. I especially want him to use the reflector at moments when I'm not throwing projectiles. At higher percentages, there will be many times when one misuse of the reflector can determine the outcome of a match. I watch for those moments carefully.

Now obviously you can't just sit there and hold the arrow button down all day. That's gonna get you killed against any competent player. What you can do is fire arrows midair while he is on the ground. Even if Fox reflects, the arrow won't hit you when it gets redirected. You can also shield yourself immediately after throwing the projectile to block (although you won't have time to do this on a reflected fully charged arrow or a close range boomerang).

The laser isn't that big of a deal. That just means more chances to hit him with arrows or scare him into spamming the reflector.

Other than that, standard Link tactics should do. Block/dodge his dash attack, rack up damage with jab/tilts, don't get caught up in his juggles, don't be predictable. The last one is especially against Fox due to his speed advantage.

I was about to make a similar post. The reflector does not alter the fight much. In fact, as pointed out here, it is an excellent opportunity to mentally manipulate the opponent. Space animals waste so much energy looking for reflection opportunities, Link can purposely miss or surprise them with a different attack entirely.

 

[UTSmash]

Against Fox, I tend to mix up between projectiles and melee attacks. So I'll spam projectiles until he starts anticipating them, then I take advantage of that by going in to attack.

 

[FSK]

We need to have some serious discussion about this matchup. This is by far my worst matchup and I'm willing to bet that its also Link's worst matchup. This is how I currently see it:

First things first his DA on shield seems to be very safe against us since his recovery on that move is lower than the start up of any of our moves except jabs I think. He can delay it enough to land behind us or use it to break out of a shield grab. You can't use first hit of jab to anything because he lands too fast and can get up his shield. Fsmash is risky because again he is a fast faller and can shield it. He juggles us easily and he is very fast. Any move we wiff he can punish with easy, with DA which strings to a lot of other moves or usmash which will kill us. Most of his moves have a lower recovery than the startup of our moves so its almost impossible to punish on reaction. You need to do hard reads throughout the matchup. Our second jump has really slow momentum so he can follow us easily with his full jump or second jump. His lasers also go through your Hylian shield so he can force you to approach. When you are on the ledge you are basically screwed cause if you ledge attack he shields if you jump from ledge you can nair you, if you roll he can grab, dsmash fsmash, if you just getup he can grab and if you do any ledge hop stuff he will shieldgrab you.

I really need some help with this matchup its making me want to give up ;(

 

[8bit.Trotz]

Short hop + arrows my man.. Reflecting them won't do anything and will keep the pressure on.
Also smart jabs work wonders against the rushdown.

 

[luke_atyeo]

Hey guys, I got asked to come over here and give my perspective into this matchup (I'm a fox player), so here goes.


First of all there's a lot of talk here about using heaps of projectiles to get into foxes head and make him waste time reflecting, or to condition him to reflector when he shouldn't giving you a free punish. This CAN work, but its not something I'd want to rely on for this match up because its not something that will work on everyone. First of all if fox is actually getting the reflector off on projectiles, he can of course instantly cancel the reflector into a jump spot dodge shield or roll right after the projectile reflects, its instant so forcing him to reflect your projectiles shouldn't, in theory, put any pressure onto fox since he has so many instant option right after, sure it can distract him a bit and pull his focus away from neutral game, but it shouldn't ever put you into an advantageous position unless the fox screws up pretty bad.
Thats of course for the foxes that use shine, I dont, fox has a much much better tool to beat links projectiles, speed.
At long and medium range this wont seem to be that bad, but at short and mediumish short range, using projectiles becomes very dangerous, I have played against links a lot and if I see them start to use a bomb or arrow, I can quickly move over the projectiles arc (or in the case of bomb pull just straight up run at you because its a little slow) and punish before your recovery frames from using a projectile finish. A smart fox will barely use the reflector at all and will instead just move and use speed to get through and punish you, so you have to be absolutely careful and smart with projectile use, you cannot just throw them out to make a wall like you might on others because it will not keep fox out.

What you can do is fire arrows midair while he is on the ground. Even if Fox reflects, the arrow won't hit you when it gets redirected. You can also shield yourself immediately after throwing the projectile to block (although you won't have time to do this on a reflected fully charged arrow or a close range boomerang).

stuff like this can seem good and might work, but again if the fox player is playing smart or knows the matchup, he can just do things like run under your arrow and wait below you, if you are in the air and fox is below you, you are in a very bad position. It can be very easy for fox to punish your landing if he's next to you. Also uair is very very fast, so although your dair beats his uair, it can be tricky to do because you have to time it just right, and if you throw it out just for the hell of it, he can simply jump up beside you and bair you, and that can often be a kill (especially if you've used up your double jump in the air already)
Shielding is something you have to be careful of aswell, fox has great shield pressure so if you get caught in your shield you need to be very careful. Foxes like to land behind you with a nair on your shield and then pressure with utilt, rolling away in between utilts can work but dont rely on that alot since if fox is expecting it that can be a free punish for him. jumping out of shield can work a little better since you still have a few options after jumping, but then you can still be in the bad position where fox is below you. if you can get a feel for how many utilts he likes to do, you can beat out the utilts with UpB out of shield, but if fox is at low percent he gets a free heavy punish on you of course, however, fox is incredibly light so the percent at which you can safely do this shouldn't be too high. I've seen shorthop dair out of shield work on foxes utilt spam but its tricky. Also you have to think quick because if you just stay in shield fox can turn around grab which comes out very fast.



As for dash attack on shield, dash attack is a great setup for a lot of foxes kills, so you might find that a lot of the time, when you are at high percent, fox might start spamming the **** out of dash attack, especially if he is feeling any kind of pressure and really wants to get that kill. As mentioned above, it can be tricky to deal with the dash attack, but UpB out of shield is an option that can win you matches. You are both high stock last percent, fox is just spamming those dash attacks so you see them coming easy, you shield it and then UpB out of shield and thats it you win. If he is running at you from far away and you just KNOW he's going to dash attack, bring up shield but then before he hits you, jump out of shield and come down on him with a dair. This is incredibly risky, but if timed right (and he was going to dash attack) will catch him completely off guard and wreck him.




other then that, you just gotta play careful and smart, I know thats cop out advice because it doesnt really help out much.
Watching some fox videos can help you to get a feel for foxes strings and what foxes like to do after getting grabs, knowing that can help you be prepared to avoid or beat some of it which can help a lot.


Also, once you get fox off the edge, you need to use your projectiles to stop his side B and double jump and force him to have to recover from below the level with his UpB, once you do that, your options for gimping him open up a lot, since his UpB is very very linear. If you can get the hang of doing this, you can make the match up a lot easier for you by getting early kills to make up for all the insane **** he can do to you.

 

[Elessar]

Hey guys, I got asked to come over here and give my perspective into this matchup (I'm a fox player), so here goes.


First of all there's a lot of talk here about using heaps of projectiles to get into foxes head and make him waste time reflecting, or to condition him to reflector when he shouldn't giving you a free punish. This CAN work, but its not something I'd want to rely on for this match up because its not something that will work on everyone. First of all if fox is actually getting the reflector off on projectiles, he can of course instantly cancel the reflector into a jump spot dodge shield or roll right after the projectile reflects, its instant so forcing him to reflect your projectiles shouldn't, in theory, put any pressure onto fox since he has so many instant option right after, sure it can distract him a bit and pull his focus away from neutral game, but it shouldn't ever put you into an advantageous position unless the fox screws up pretty bad.
Thats of course for the foxes that use shine, I dont, fox has a much much better tool to beat links projectiles, speed.
At long and medium range this wont seem to be that bad, but at short and mediumish short range, using projectiles becomes very dangerous, I have played against links a lot and if I see them start to use a bomb or arrow, I can quickly move over the projectiles arc (or in the case of bomb pull just straight up run at you because its a little slow) and punish before your recovery frames from using a projectile finish. A smart fox will barely use the reflector at all and will instead just move and use speed to get through and punish you, so you have to be absolutely careful and smart with projectile use, you cannot just throw them out to make a wall like you might on others because it will not keep fox out.



stuff like this can seem good and might work, but again if the fox player is playing smart or knows the matchup, he can just do things like run under your arrow and wait below you, if you are in the air and fox is below you, you are in a very bad position. It can be very easy for fox to punish your landing if he's next to you. Also uair is very very fast, so although your dair beats his uair, it can be tricky to do because you have to time it just right, and if you throw it out just for the hell of it, he can simply jump up beside you and bair you, and that can often be a kill (especially if you've used up your double jump in the air already)
Shielding is something you have to be careful of aswell, fox has great shield pressure so if you get caught in your shield you need to be very careful. Foxes like to land behind you with a nair on your shield and then pressure with utilt, rolling away in between utilts can work but dont rely on that alot since if fox is expecting it that can be a free punish for him. jumping out of shield can work a little better since you still have a few options after jumping, but then you can still be in the bad position where fox is below you. if you can get a feel for how many utilts he likes to do, you can beat out the utilts with UpB out of shield, but if fox is at low percent he gets a free heavy punish on you of course, however, fox is incredibly light so the percent at which you can safely do this shouldn't be too high. I've seen shorthop dair out of shield work on foxes utilt spam but its tricky. Also you have to think quick because if you just stay in shield fox can turn around grab which comes out very fast.



As for dash attack on shield, dash attack is a great setup for a lot of foxes kills, so you might find that a lot of the time, when you are at high percent, fox might start spamming the **** out of dash attack, especially if he is feeling any kind of pressure and really wants to get that kill. As mentioned above, it can be tricky to deal with the dash attack, but UpB out of shield is an option that can win you matches. You are both high stock last percent, fox is just spamming those dash attacks so you see them coming easy, you shield it and then UpB out of shield and thats it you win. If he is running at you from far away and you just KNOW he's going to dash attack, bring up shield but then before he hits you, jump out of shield and come down on him with a dair. This is incredibly risky, but if timed right (and he was going to dash attack) will catch him completely off guard and wreck him.




other then that, you just gotta play careful and smart, I know thats cop out advice because it doesnt really help out much.
Watching some fox videos can help you to get a feel for foxes strings and what foxes like to do after getting grabs, knowing that can help you be prepared to avoid or beat some of it which can help a lot.


Also, once you get fox off the edge, you need to use your projectiles to stop his side B and double jump and force him to have to recover from below the level with his UpB, once you do that, your options for gimping him open up a lot, since his UpB is very very linear. If you can get the hang of doing this, you can make the match up a lot easier for you by getting early kills to make up for all the insane **** he can do to you.

That was an amazing post and I thank so so much for it. I've been thinking actually that projectiles are not the miracle strat some have been saying and have been wondering why so many have been praising arrows specially. I blame that on FG foxes who never rush you down.

I play regularly vs a decent fox and Fox is one of my alts, however I usually refrain from commenting on MU threads since my scene is so different that on most cases my MU experience doesn't apply to the US. This case is different though and it is refreshing to see that.

One thing I always try to do when I get Fox off stage is predict his sideB and intercept it with a dair or nair. I've met a couple of photos hitboxes sadly, but most times it works like a charm. While it can't kill anymore it still leaves fox in a bad position again and racks up nice dmg. What's your view on this from your end?

Thanks for your post again.

 

[Zelkam]

I'm typically not very good at giving matchup advice, but Fox is one of my secondaries so I do know a few particulars about him that could be beneficial. I'm not gonna attempt to tell anyone how to play the match; (@ luke_atyeo has already done an awesome job doing that) instead I'm just gonna do what I do best and give some cold hard data and let you pick it apart as you see fit.

For starters, Fox suffers from some of the same weaknesses as in brawl, one of which being his weaker kill options. Fox's most viable kill moves are Bair, Uair, Usmash, and Dsmash. Every one of these moves deals less damage and has less knockback than they did in brawl. Bair's usage is essentially unchanged from Brawl. It's still quick and autocancels on a shorthop so expect Fox mains to use it just like they always have. Uair is still a strong option and actually has a few moves that combo into it. I've heard that a tipped Dtilt true combos into Uair at kill percents. Also Fox can combo illusion into Uair. Dsmash is relatively unchanged from brawl; still the same semi spike trajectory so watch out for that. Usmash, Fox's number one go to kill move, probably received the biggest nerfs. It doesn't start becoming a viable kill option until around 110%. That's about 20% later than it used to. Not only that but it's horizontal range got nerfed, so Fox has to get right up on top of you to land it. It's also I bit harder to set up because dacus is gone and Dair no longer combos into it.

Speaking of Dair, lets talk about aerials. Dair in smash 4 is a shadow of it's former glory. It has 13 more frames of landing lag and the hits deal upward knockback now as opposed to downward. This means that if Fox wants any chance to combo into anything from a SH Dair he has to fast fall or time it so he lands before the last hit. If the last hit connects then you get popped up and it becomes difficult to combo into anything from that. However, even if Fox does it right and skips the last hit, the extra landing lag greatly limits his options. The only viable options out of a SH Dair now are Ftilt and Utilt. A smart Fox will try to land behind you in order to start a Utilt juggle. If he land in front of you, though, you can most likely expect a Ftilt.

Fair has changed greatly from Brawl. It does way less damage (7% as opposed to 23%) and Fox doesn't get quite as much of a vertical boost when used after his midair jump. It also has 9 more frames of landing lag. Probably the biggest change though is that the first four hits spike. Now typically what would happen is the opponent would get locked in the move until the final hit which knocks them away. If Fox should cancel the move before the final hit, however, the opponent is gonna get spiked. Usually this is done by fast falling so you land on the stage before the last hit. This has a lot of applications both on and off the stage. On the stage it can lead to things like a Ftilt Lock or a number of other punishes if you should miss the tech. So always be prepared to tech if you see a Fox try to hit you with a SH Fair. This can also be used to spike people off the stage, but it's far more difficult and can be risky. This can be done by either standing at the edge of the stage or clashing with your opponents recovery move.

The other weakness that Fox has is his linear recovery. His illusion was buffed in the fact that it no longer puts him into a helpless state afterwards, but it came at the cost of no longer being able to cancel it. The illusion is Fox's main recovery move because firefox is so easily gimpable. In brawl, Fox was able to switch up his recovery by canceling his illusion. He could do things like make you think he's going to illusion onto the stage and then cancel it early and grab the ledge. You could also cancel it at the very end get quite a bit of extra distance. Now that its gone, Fox's recovery options are severely limited. 9 times out of 10 Fox players will illusion to the ledge. This can be easily gimped with a Nair or even a well timed Dair. One thing you should take note of, though, is that he has a small window of intangibility at the beginning of the move. From what I've been able to tell, he gains intangibility from as soon as he starts moving until about a quarter of the way through the move.

While we're on the topic of specials, lets talk lasers. Fox's blaster has horrible ending lag in Smash 4. He can no longer perform SH double or triple lasers. And it's range is no better than it was in brawl. So if you're up against a Fox that's spamming lasers to force you to approach then you should do just that. Approach him and punish that ending lag. Most smart Fox's will only use lasers after a throw or after they've knocked you offstage now, so you shouldn't have to worry about them too much.

Alright, I think that's enough wall of text for now. If you wanna know some of the particulars on Fox's moveset you can check out my write-up here. It seems that the Fox boards are starting to become more active so maybe it's time for me to start updating that thing.

 

[LightLelouch89]

That was an amazing post and I thank so so much for it. I've been thinking actually that projectiles are not the miracle strat some have been saying and have been wondering why so many have been praising arrows specially. I blame that on FG foxes who never rush you down..

Yeah, at the time I made that comment, I had mainly been playing people on FG. A lot of Foxes there will literally be crouched down doing nothing but waiting to hit the B button for when a projectile is shot . . .

 

[luke_atyeo]

That was an amazing post and I thank so so much for it. I've been thinking actually that projectiles are not the miracle strat some have been saying and have been wondering why so many have been praising arrows specially. I blame that on FG foxes who never rush you down.

I play regularly vs a decent fox and Fox is one of my alts, however I usually refrain from commenting on MU threads since my scene is so different that on most cases my MU experience doesn't apply to the US. This case is different though and it is refreshing to see that.

One thing I always try to do when I get Fox off stage is predict his sideB and intercept it with a dair or nair. I've met a couple of photos hitboxes sadly, but most times it works like a charm. While it can't kill anymore it still leaves fox in a bad position again and racks up nice dmg. What's your view on this from your end?

Thanks for your post again.

if you can find a way to intercept foxes side B then you have a good tool in your hands, I dont know much about the vulnerability frames of foxes side B since I've never really had anyone do this to me, a few people have tried with things like falcon knees and the side B went through them, so there is invincibility for fox at some point. a dair seems the much harder option to time but it is a killing move so if you can get it down reliably its well worth the risk. Nair at least racks up damage alike you said, and if you can get back to the stage before fox does it might give you an opening to gimp firefox? At the end of the day, if it works, it works. Foxes might start to adapt to you doing that, since fox can delay the sideB now because he dont have to hit the ledge with the sideB thanks to not going into freefall anymore, but if fox delays his sideB, that might still put him in a bad position.

The greater the breadth of knowledge, the better equipped you guys will be for match ups, so dont worry about your scene being different, adding your experience and view is good.


Other then that, playing a character is good to get to know all the little tricks they have, it could probably all be listed here but I'd say its much more effective to just play against it first hand if you can. Me and Fox is openly deceptive will be playing next weekend so I guess we'll sit down and see what else we can figure out for the match up.

 

[Elessar]

if you can find a way to intercept foxes side B then you have a good tool in your hands, I dont know much about the vulnerability frames of foxes side B since I've never really had anyone do this to me, a few people have tried with things like falcon knees and the side B went through them, so there is invincibility for fox at some point. a dair seems the much harder option to time but it is a killing move so if you can get it down reliably its well worth the risk. Nair at least racks up damage alike you said, and if you can get back to the stage before fox does it might give you an opening to gimp firefox? At the end of the day, if it works, it works. Foxes might start to adapt to you doing that, since fox can delay the sideB now because he dont have to hit the ledge with the sideB thanks to not going into freefall anymore, but if fox delays his sideB, that might still put him in a bad position.

The greater the breadth of knowledge, the better equipped you guys will be for match ups, so dont worry about your scene being different, adding your experience and view is good.


Other then that, playing a character is good to get to know all the little tricks they have, it could probably all be listed here but I'd say its much more effective to just play against it first hand if you can. Me and Fox is openly deceptive will be playing next weekend so I guess we'll sit down and see what else we can figure out for the match up.

I'd like to play you as well since I don't have a lot of Fox MU. I do play Fox as an alt so I have some knowledge of Fox. I have one friend with whom I play offline and I tend to intercept his sideB with dair quite often, that's why I mentioned it. It is quite easy since dair stays out for so long, but sadly dair isn't a kill move anymore so it only serves to rack dmg and edgeguard.

Also, my scene is radically different since it's very, very aggro. There is hardly any camping, time outs never happens. The whole mentality is very different from the US so a lot fo the things that would work for me won't work int he US just because you guys play so defensively. Or used to, not I'm seeing more and more people play aggro. We'll see. I will be hosting a tournament in a couple of months and I'll upload the matches, so we can see then.

 

[Zelkam]

if you can find a way to intercept foxes side B then you have a good tool in your hands, I dont know much about the vulnerability frames of foxes side B since I've never really had anyone do this to me, a few people have tried with things like falcon knees and the side B went through them, so there is invincibility for fox at some point.

It's right at the beginning. Here, I'll just quote it from my post above

One thing you should take note of, though, is that he has a small window of intangibility at the beginning of the move. From what I've been able to tell, he gains intangibility from as soon as he starts moving until about a quarter of the way through the move.

 

[luke_atyeo]

Yeah, right, sorry man I kinda just glossed over that bit of your post.
I wonder if aerial illusion has the same hurt boxes?

I'd like to play you as well since I don't have a lot of Fox MU. I do play Fox as an alt so I have some knowledge of Fox. I have one friend with whom I play offline and I tend to intercept his sideB with dair quite often, that's why I mentioned it. It is quite easy since dair stays out for so long, but sadly dair isn't a kill move anymore so it only serves to rack dmg and edgeguard.

Also, my scene is radically different since it's very, very aggro. There is hardly any camping, time outs never happens. The whole mentality is very different from the US so a lot fo the things that would work for me won't work int he US just because you guys play so defensively. Or used to, not I'm seeing more and more people play aggro. We'll see. I will be hosting a tournament in a couple of months and I'll upload the matches, so we can see then.

oh dair isnt a kill anymore? thats lame.
I dont live in the US either, I'm in Australia, our scene is **** compared to America

 

[Elessar]

oh dair isnt a kill anymore? thats lame.
I dont live in the US either, I'm in Australia, our scene is **** compared to America

Just like my scene then. And yeah, dair isn't a kill move anymore unless you spike with it. They changed the knockback to turn it into a launcher but failed because it has too much knockback on higher % but not enough to kill. At lower percentages you can combo out of it, but barely. And since it has so much dmg crossing the threshold from which you can't combo out of it anymore is too easy. They really messed up the move for no reason.

 

[Zelkam]

Yeah, right, sorry man I kinda just glossed over that bit of your post.
I wonder if aerial illusion has the same hurt boxes?

I don't blame you, it was quite the wall of text. I tested aerial vs grounded and, from what i could tell, they seemed to be the same. One thing that I'm not 100% sure of is where exactly Fox's hurtbox is during the move. Because I have a feeling that it might actually be bit bit in front of Fox instead of directly over top him. I'm not sure how to test this, though, so I guess will just have to wait until we get some guys that can give hit/hurtbox data.

 

[PKBeam]

In Brawl Fox's hurtboxes were completely normal for the duration of Side-B
But yeah that's Brawl and they did nerf Link's Dair to ****.

 

[Sabaca]

At first i thought this is potentially Links worst MU aswell. Simply because i already had problems with the movement of other characters (captain falcon ZSS Pikachu etc.) but he can deal easier with your projectiles. However in the end i came to the point where i say that this MU actually is quite simple in his basics. To me it is probably about even.

Play patientlyand use your projectiles so he can't laser you. His reflector won't do anything to you if you use your projectiles smart as mentioned above.
So you won on far range.

In Mid range he can basically do 2 things. Punish you for anything laggy you do. Approach. Running away is no effective option to him. You got the same options + running away.
How you deal with his Approaches: You simply jab or nair (mainly , other attacks work too but those are the ones i use the most) his approaches. To put a hitbox infront of you is your best option to stop his approach because you will either hit him or the moves clank and you can punish him if you spaced it. Use shield and rolls as mixup and other attack when you read his approach. You can easily misuse those mixups in this matchup because he is fast , so they allow him to get into close combat where he can kick your ass to the moon with his combos and faster attacks.

So mainly use your fast moves to stop him from approaching and aboid slower moves to give him no oppurtunity for punishes.

Approaching your self is even easier than in some other MUs because he has no move that can beat your approach and has a quite short grab range. So he can only use his dodge/shield and movement options to avoid it.

When he gets into close range you failed and will take a lot of % or even lose a stock.

Tl;Dr: Stay save and keep him away with fast moves , so you don't have to take his hard punishes.

Beside not getting whooped your main goal should be to get him offstage. You can edgeguard him really hard and potentially kill him at any % by edgeguarding him.
The Moves i use mainly to do so are zair nair dair and fair. All of those moves ofc beat both his side b and up b.
Nair and Zair simply cancel his recovery and are your tools to gimp him. (weak nair combos into almost everything offstage)
You can spike him if you can expect his recovery (or even on reaction), you just have to learn the timing. If you miss your timing you will get punished softly or hit him with the dair and potentially stage spike or reset the edgeguard.
Fair is simply to kill him offstage when he has enough %. You can also do that with strong nair but i think fair is easier to hit on most occasions.

Tl;Dr Edgeguard him HARD.

I'd really love to discuss if there is anything you disagree with and eventually correct my english if there is anything that can be misunderstood.

PS: remember that he is a fastfaller so you can't jab and utilt combo that easy because he might land and shield before you can follow up. Full jab , pressure his shield , grab or get away + bomb/bumerang. Tho Utilt combo becomes even more effective when he is above you.

 

[luke_atyeo]

^ like sabaca said, nair is a really good tool here.
From what I've experienced I'm fairly sure that links Nair beats fox's Nair, and foxes love their Nairs, so your Nair will be your best friend in this matchup.

 

[A_Phoenix_Down]

As said above, nairs great. Especially against fast spammy characters like Fox. I can see it being a difficult match-up for projectile-based Linkers though. My advice to those type of Link's would be to switch it up and use projectiles sparingly.

I personally love fighting Fox because I find it an easy match up. Most Fox players have a pretty big head too, cus they think using Fox makes them pro, so I enjoy sending them to the abyss.

 

[SphericalCrusher]

I don't have any friends who are really good Fox players to train against, but just playing my level 50 Fox Amiibo (Don't laugh), I just try to out-time him. I throw bombs, arrows, and anything at all to just keep distracting him and try to forward slash or grab him for a throw. He's definitely annoying, but a few hard front tilts can be night and day against him.

 

[Elessar]

I don't have any friends who are really good Fox players to train against, but just playing my level 50 Fox Amiibo (Don't laugh), I just try to out-time him. I throw bombs, arrows, and anything at all to just keep distracting him and try to forward slash or grab him for a throw. He's definitely annoying, but a few hard front tilts can be night and day against him.

As a rule of thumb something that works with the CPU (even if it's an amiibo) won't work on a real person, specially at a competitive level because humans adapt. I'd recommend finding someone online who plays a good Fox and getting actual MU experience vs another human since these strats that you mentioned won't really work vs a competent Fox player.

 

[Zelkam]

I don't have any friends who are really good Fox players to train against, but just playing my level 50 Fox Amiibo (Don't laugh), I just try to out-time him. I throw bombs, arrows, and anything at all to just keep distracting him and try to forward slash or grab him for a throw. He's definitely annoying, but a few hard front tilts can be night and day against him.

Feel free to add me. I might not be the best Fox player, but he is one of my secondaries so I'm sure I can put up a better fight than the CPU. Plus I'd be happy for the practice as well.

 

[SphericalCrusher]

As a rule of thumb something that works with the CPU (even if it's an amiibo) won't work on a real person, specially at a competitive level because humans adapt. I'd recommend finding someone online who plays a good Fox and getting actual MU experience vs another human since these strats that you mentioned won't really work vs a competent Fox player.

I know this. That's why I said "don't laugh" haha. That's all I had to go by at the time though was a level 50 adapting Fox amiibo. I find Fox online sometimes but they're not very good (that particular player I mean). Thanks for the response!

Feel free to add me. I might not be the best Fox player, but he is one of my secondaries so I'm sure I can put up a better fight than the CPU. Plus I'd be happy for the practice as well.

Awesome man! I main Link, but I also play Toon Link, ZSS, and Diddy. NNID: SphericalCrusher

 

[Zelkam]

I know this. That's why I said "don't laugh" haha. That's all I had to go by at the time though was a level 50 adapting Fox amiibo. I find Fox online sometimes but they're not very good (that particular player I mean). Thanks for the response!



Awesome man! I main Link, but I also play Toon Link, ZSS, and Diddy. NNID: SphericalCrusher

Sent you friend request. I'm free most evenings so just shoot me a PM or pop into xat when you wanna play.

 

[SphericalCrusher]

Sent you friend request. I'm free most evenings so just shoot me a PM or pop into xat when you wanna play.

Awesome man. Sorry, I wasn't on for long last night. I'll get it.

Back on topic I suppose, sorry mods! :D

 

[dahuterschuter]

Link runs all over Fox really. Your tilts can set up a full-on wall against his stubby little arms and metal legs and killing the furry fast-faller is easy with Link's nutso knockback on all his attacks. The only way Fox has an advantage is if your game is 4glor tier ledge camping.

Use your projectiles only to interrupt. If Fox is in the middle of anything, shooting, dashing, attacking obviously, that reflector isn't coming out before your can hit him with something, the ending on Fox's moves is too slow and offers too much of a window.

 

[Lawz.]

Link runs all over Fox really. Your tilts can set up a full-on wall against his stubby little arms and metal legs and killing the furry fast-faller is easy with Link's nutso knockback on all his attacks. The only way Fox has an advantage is if your game is 4glor tier ledge camping.

Use your projectiles only to interrupt. If Fox is in the middle of anything, shooting, dashing, attacking obviously, that reflector isn't coming out before your can hit him with something, the ending on Fox's moves is too slow and offers too much of a window.

No, Link does not run all over Fox. In fact Fox is a very hard character for Link. And Fox's moves aren't slow at all, a lot of his aerials autocancel and Fox can juggle Link with utilt so easily.

Fox also has double jab > usmash on Link at killing percents which is way more of a kill guarantee than Link could ever hope to have. Also tilts do NOT set up a wall, as the only tilt Link has that's safe on shield is utilt which does not serve that purpose.

Link is too slow to match Fox's speed and once Fox gets in on Link (and he will) it is very difficult for Link to keep him out. Add the fact that Fox has amazing jabs, utilt juggle for great damage and a laser that builds damage from full screen faster than Link can pull out a bomb, you're looking at a bad match for Link.

 

[A_Phoenix_Down]

Still, I've noticed Link's jabs beat out Fox's a lot. It can be very tricky to fight Fox but really, timing is everything.

 

[Izanagi97]

Isn't Links Dair a meteor smash at the start?

I imagine that could be used to gimp Fox's recovery (unless you are too late, fox is pretty fast)

 

[Zelkam]

Isn't Links Dair a meteor smash at the start?

I imagine that could be used to gimp Fox's recovery (unless you are too late, fox is pretty fast)

Yup, I actually went over that in my post above.

 

[Sabaca]

We covered that multtiple times now.

 

[RoronoaTREY15]

Link's boomerang is the answer! It's the answer against most characters with a reflector actually. If fox reflects it, the gust of wind will only push you back. This should condition him to stop using reflector (scrubs), and if he is good he will respect it. Now ur strategy should be to run away at mid range and pull out bombs. Always throw boomerangs at him, empty jump, fake rush and throw the bombs away 10/10 if you have to. Force him to play overly aggressive (try to punish a bomb pull, retreat, or boomerang throw), and punish him with normals. Like Luke said, any Fox with half a brain is not gonna spam reflector. They are only going to use it if they think you are predictable.

 

[luke_atyeo]

the ending on Fox's moves is too slow and offers too much of a window.

basically every thing you stated is incorrect, but I felt this was the biggest one. You'd be hard pressed to find a character whose moves end quicker then foxes, fox doesn't even know what end lag is, only his smash attacks have end lag, everything else ends more or less instantly.

Where do you people come from?

 

[A_Phoenix_Down]

Fox also runs extremely slow too, so use that your advantage!

 

[Elessar]

Where do you people come from?

For Glory. They all. Come from For Glory.

The ramparts misinformation on this thread is giving me a head ache. We need to somehow differentiate the good advise from the bad advise for new readers.

Link's boomerang is the answer! It's the answer against most characters with a reflector actually. If fox reflects it, the gust of wind will only push you back. This should condition him to stop using reflector (scrubs), and if he is good he will respect it. Now ur strategy should be to run away at mid range and pull out bombs. Always throw boomerangs at him, empty jump, fake rush and throw the bombs away 10/10 if you have to. Force him to play overly aggressive (try to punish a bomb pull, retreat, or boomerang throw), and punish him with normals. Like Luke said, any Fox with half a brain is not gonna spam reflector. They are only going to use it if they think you are predictable.

This is a bad idea, all over. You don't have to force Fox to play a overly aggressive, that's how any half decent Fox will always play. Good Foxes won't even bother with the reflector mist times they'll just rush you down and bust you up. The gale has horrible start up lag, just awful, and catching it is one of the worst things you can do since it stops you dead on your tracks. I'm not saying don't use it, but never spam it because a competent player will adapt, will bait and you will be punished. An empty jump. Will work twice, max thrice before you get punished for it, so mix it up.

My advise for everyone here giving bad advise on the MU is to go offline and play at a tourney or try to play people from ladders or here who main fox. Stop playing FG so much because, trust us, FG is chock full of scrubs.

 

[luke_atyeo]

And to think, we all rejoiced when Sakurai announced for glory...