[MU] Fox

[ZSaberLink]

You can punish Fox's dash attack with an fsmash? I didn't know it was that unsafe. If you really can punish it and the cross up version, that would discourage a lot of dash attack pressure. Good write up

The DD is 19 frames and F-Smash comes out frame 15, if you input F-Smash within 4 frames then it can punish. It can be difficult to do but is possible.

Link's moves have ok startup and bad endlag generally. It's not too surprising. Also keep in mind it takes 6-7 frames for the input to even reach the system and be processed. As such you had to predict he was going to stop ahead of you or something with the dash attack and then punish with an FSmash. If you miss, he probably has even more time to react to your FSmash (since you're probably not using the tipper at close range). Out of curiosity, what is Fox's dash attack range? It's possible to miss the Fox if he's too close right? Or is that only with bombs/boomerangs?

 

[Stryker95]

. Out of curiosity, what is Fox's dash attack range? It's possible to miss the Fox if he's too close right? Or is that only with bombs/boomerangs?

The Dash Attack range is roughly one square on Hyrule Temple Omega stage, with the active frames being slightly less. Link's F-Smash can whiff if Fox is too close, but it's range is surprisingly decent.

Spoiler: F-Smash Range

Basically, if Fox is close enough to push Link, it will whiff.

Spoiler: F-Smash Whiff

Notice the position of Link's shield relative to Fox.

 

[M3M3L0RD]

Fox's speed is hard for Link to deal with. He doesn't have a lot of options to space Fox out without getting punish. The main maneuver you need to learn to play defense vs Fox is auto cancel forward air (first hit only!) followed by jabs or forward tilt. Doing this efficiently plus keeping mixup with bombs and boomerangs will force Fox to play projectile defense mode or go for aerial approach (where Link has the range advantage)

A good implementation of Z air is useful too but not necessary IMO as projectiles and neutral will always net more damage (unless your opponent keeps falling for it)

Played against a high skill local Fox today. He bested me in the end but while I was playing to this strategy he could not stop me

 

[ZSaberLink]

Fox's speed is hard for Link to deal with. He doesn't have a lot of options to space Fox out without getting punish. The main maneuver you need to learn to play defense vs Fox is auto cancel forward air (first hit only!) followed by jabs or forward tilt. Doing this efficiently plus keeping mixup with bombs and boomerangs will force Fox to play projectile defense mode or go for aerial approach (where Link has the range advantage)

A good implementation of Z air is useful too but not necessary IMO as projectiles and neutral will always net more damage (unless your opponent keeps falling for it)

Played against a high skill local Fox today. He bested me in the end but while I was playing to this strategy he could not stop me

FAir doesn't autocancel unless you double jump. You'll get 12 frames of landing lag, as the autocancel window is frame 51 and Link's full jump lasts 49 frames. 12 frames isn't too bad, but it's still not autocanceling.

 

[Natmax]

FAir doesn't autocancel unless you double jump. You'll get 12 frames of landing lag, as the autocancel window is frame 51 and Link's full jump lasts 49 frames. 12 frames isn't too bad, but it's still not autocanceling.

Yep, and in most cases (I won't say all because I'm not sure about it when timed frame perfectly), if not auto-cancelled fox can punish it. Fox can also punish ftilt on shield. This MU is truly ass XD

 

[Stryker95]

Fox can also punish ftilt on shield.

Well, if spaced properly Fox has only 6 frames to punish (8 if he attempts a grab) and that isn't enough time, so FTilt can be safe on shield.

 

[M3M3L0RD]

FAir doesn't autocancel unless you double jump. You'll get 12 frames of landing lag, as the autocancel window is frame 51 and Link's full jump lasts 49 frames. 12 frames isn't too bad, but it's still not autocanceling.

Not true I was doing full hop fair cancels of course the whole hit box of fair wasn't coming out but it registers the sword tip first so it still spaces well near the floor. I wasn't so much auto canceling for first hit fair I was canceling right as the second hit comes out. When you do this Link has no landing lag spare a frame or 2

 

[Stryker95]

Not true I was doing full hop fair cancels of course the whole hit box of fair wasn't coming out but it registers the sword tip first so it still spaces well near the floor. I wasn't so much auto canceling for first hit fair I was canceling right as the second hit comes out. When you do this Link has no landing lag spare a frame or 2

You're new here so I don't really know how well you know the game, so if it sounds like I am patronizing you, I'm not, just being cautious and trying to cover all the bases.
What Z ZSaberLink said is correct. Auto-cancelling means Link receives hard landing lag, which for us is 5 frames. The landing lag of FAir 51< is 12. To see this go to a stage in training mode and set it to 1/4 speed Hold L (Hold L allows you to stop time if you feel the need), jump once and move Link towards the opponent. Once he is above the opponent press jump again and you will jump off his head, called a footstool (this just gives you more height). At the height of your jump press jump again to get your double jump allowing you even more time. Before you reach the top of that jump press and hold down, that prevents you from falling fast. As you begin to fall slowly, press A as you are still holding down. This will make DAir come out. DAir is the easiest to tell whether it autocancels, if Link's sword strikes the ground, it did not autocancel. Hold shield and note how long before the shield pops up. There are 16 frames from the time the last active DAir hitboxes are present until he can act again. If Link lands in this time you will notice he lands on his feet and not with the sword in the ground, that is the autocancel. Take note at how long that lasts. Now do a full hop FAir (still in 1/4 speed Hold L) and see if the landing lag is the same as the autocancel before. You could just not do the DAir and autocancel the FAir off of a double jump to see what an actual autocancel is, but DAir is much more obvious to see. Anyhow, you should see that after the first hit of FAir the landing lag is more than twice as long, no matter when he lands.
If you are experienced enough to not need that long walkthrough, then sorry dude, you are just straight up wrong, maybe you only think it autocancels because at 1X speed 5 and 12 frames don't look too far off.

 

[ZSaberLink]

You're new here so I don't really know how well you know the game, so if it sounds like I am patronizing you, I'm not, just being cautious and trying to cover all the bases.
What Z ZSaberLink said is correct. Auto-cancelling means Link receives hard landing lag, which for us is 5 frames. The landing lag of FAir 51< is 12. To see this go to a stage in training mode and set it to 1/4 speed Hold L (Hold L allows you to stop time if you feel the need), jump once and move Link towards the opponent. Once he is above the opponent press jump again and you will jump off his head, called a footstool (this just gives you more height). At the height of your jump press jump again to get your double jump allowing you even more time. Before you reach the top of that jump press and hold down, that prevents you from falling fast. As you begin to fall slowly, press A as you are still holding down. This will make DAir come out. DAir is the easiest to tell whether it autocancels, if Link's sword strikes the ground, it did not autocancel. Hold shield and note how long before the shield pops up. There are 16 frames from the time the DAir hitboxes are present until he can act again. If Link lands in this time you will notice he lands on his feet and not with the sword in the ground, that is the autocancel. Take note at how long that lasts. Now do a full hop FAir (still in 1/4 speed Hold L) and see if the landing lag is the same as the autocancel before. You could just not do the DAir and autocancel the FAir off of a double jump to see what an actual autocancel is, but DAir is much more obvious to see. Anyhow, you should see that after the first hit of FAir the landing lag is more than twice as long, no matter when he lands.
If you are experienced enough to not need that long walkthrough, then sorry dude, you are just straight up wrong, maybe you only think it autocancels because at 1X speed 5 and 12 frames don't look too far off.

Stryker, 16 frames? I'm confused. The move starts at frame 14 and ends on frame 64, and it autocancels on 65. And to be fair, your Dair example seems a bit complicated (given that it has footstools and all lol). It'd be easier just to jump off a high platform or something.

Not true I was doing full hop fair cancels of course the whole hit box of fair wasn't coming out but it registers the sword tip first so it still spaces well near the floor. I wasn't so much auto canceling for first hit fair I was canceling right as the second hit comes out. When you do this Link has no landing lag spare a frame or 2

Here is a site with Link's frame data, autocancel values etc. - http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Link

I think you may be confusing "autocancel", which we mean has the same landing lag as if you jumped and did not attack in any way, and just simply cancelling Fair, which just means part 2 doesn't come out because you landed, but you get landing lag of 12 frames. Link's Fair, Bair & Nair actually have some of the smallest landing lag for attacks in the game, so yes, it doesn't feel too terrible if you get the landing lag usually.

Like Stryker suggested, if you pick an attack like DAir which has 32 frames of landing lag, it's pretty obvious when it autocancels vs when it doesn't. Another example is UAir actually autocancels with Link's full jump (cancels on frame 47, Full jump = frame 49). So if you don't fast fall or anything and maximize the time you're in the air with that one jump, you'll hit the ground and seemingly be able to things pretty quickly afterwards.

 

[Stryker95]

Stryker, 16 frames on Dair? You mean closer to 60 right?

I meant from last active frame to FAF, 80-64 is 16. I wasn't clear enough, I'll edit it.
Edit: and for the complicated way (footstool) I know it gives me enough height, so yes jumping off a platform is simpler, it is just that the footstool way gives you more room to land horizontally because of no platforms. But yeah, whatever way that suits your fancy.

 

[Natmax]

Well, if spaced properly Fox has only 6 frames to punish (8 if he attempts a grab) and that isn't enough time, so FTilt can be safe on shield.

Hmm, that's very good to know. I think the issue is that I attempt to use another move after Ftilt and get punished before it comes out. You're clearly more of a frame data guru than I Stryker, is it safe to jab on FAF after a spaced Ftilt on fox?

 

[Stryker95]

Hmm, that's very good to know. I think the issue is that I attempt to use another move after Ftilt and get punished before it comes out. You're clearly more of a frame data guru than I Stryker, is it safe to jab on FAF after a spaced Ftilt on fox?

No, you can shield the dash attack and spotdodge a dash grab but we don't have anything fast enough to catch him coming in, only defense options.
Edit: Unless of course, the opponent isn't fast enough on the punish.

 

[Natmax]

No, you can shield the dash attack and spotdodge a dash grab but we don't have anything fast enough to catch him coming in, only defense options.
Edit: Unless of course, the opponent isn't fast enough on the punish.

This makes so much sense, however, I'm wondering if human reaction time is quick enough to see which option fox goes for. Is it best to just guess the option and do the corresponding defensive maneuver? Or I suppose maybe shield more often, since getting grabbed by fox is not a huge issue, but dash attack can lead into massive combos/strings

 

[Stryker95]

This makes so much sense, however, I'm wondering if human reaction time is quick enough to see which option fox goes for. Is it best to just guess the option and do the corresponding defensive maneuver? Or I suppose maybe shield more often, since getting grabbed by fox is not a huge issue, but dash attack can lead into massive combos/strings

No, human reaction time is too slow. As for what you should do, that isn't my territory but I imagine it is up to you based off of reads and previous encounters.

 

[M3M3L0RD]

Here is a site with Link's frame data, autocancel values etc. - http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Link

I think you may be confusing "autocancel", which we mean has the same landing lag as if you jumped and did not attack in any way, and just simply cancelling Fair, which just means part 2 doesn't come out because you landed, but you get landing lag of 12 frames. Link's Fair, Bair & Nair actually have some of the smallest landing lag for attacks in the game, so yes, it doesn't feel too terrible if you get the landing lag usually.

Like Stryker suggested, if you pick an attack like DAir which has 32 frames of landing lag, it's pretty obvious when it autocancels vs when it doesn't. Another example is UAir actually autocancels with Link's full jump (cancels on frame 47, Full jump = frame 49). So if you don't fast fall or anything and maximize the time you're in the air with that one jump, you'll hit the ground and seemingly be able to things pretty quickly afterwards.

It's not an argument I'm telling you about how Link will have no landing lag if you fast fall as quick as possible after full hop fair. If it's not on that fellow's data post it should be also it only makes sense, If double jump auto cancels both hits of fair then a full jump should cancel the one, and it seems to do that

Take it to the lab and see for yourself you won't really know unless you test it

 

[Catana]

It's not an argument I'm telling you about how Link will have no landing lag if you fast fall as quick as possible after full hop fair. If it's not on that fellow's data post it should be also it only makes sense, If double jump auto cancels both hits of fair then a full jump should cancel the one, and it seems to do that

Take it to the lab and see for yourself you won't really know unless you test it

please acknowledge the fact already that you have no idea what you're talking about and that you're wrong

 

[Stryker95]

It's not an argument I'm telling you about how Link will have no landing lag if you fast fall as quick as possible after full hop fair. If it's not on that fellow's data post it should be also it only makes sense, If double jump auto cancels both hits of fair then a full jump should cancel the one, and it seems to do that

Take it to the lab and see for yourself you won't really know unless you test it

First of all, there is always landing lag, even L-cancelling aerials in Melee. That right there tells the entire internet you do not know what you are talking about and can't be trusted. And it would only make sense to autocancel if the designers made it that way, and they did not. Your logic about double jumping autocancels both hits so a full jump should autocancel one is incorrect, the game uses numbers, not logic. We HAVE taken it to the lab and we know you are wrong, now how about YOU take it to the lab and learn something before posting again.

 

[M3M3L0RD]

First of all, there is always landing lag, even L-cancelling aerials in Melee. That right there tells the entire internet you do not know what you are talking about and can't be trusted. And it would only make sense to autocancel if the designers made it that way, and they did not. Your logic about double jumping autocancels both hits so a full jump should autocancel one is incorrect, the game uses numbers, not logic. We HAVE taken it to the lab and we know you are wrong, now how about YOU take it to the lab and learn something before posting again.

Right because normal people don't exaggerate sometimes. Quit being a sore thumb and test it more because I promise you I was doing them

 

[Dumbfire]

go back to posting memes you're not good at this thinking thing

 

[Stryker95]

Right because normal people don't exaggerate sometimes. Quit being a sore thumb and test it more because I promise you I was doing them

Ok, I am done with this. We all (the entire smash community) know it does not autocancel and clearly giving video evidence is not enough. If you want to go around thinking you know more than everyone else here, than go ahead, see how far it gets you. Anything past this is just spam so if you want to discuss this more just PM me.