[MU] Diddy kong

[Catana]

Had any of you notice last patch that it hit multiple characters, not just one. If link's combo is getting patch, then diddy down throw will get a nerf because hes way too dominant in tournaments, and many people are complaining about the down throw to be nerf. So if there doing another balance patch, im all for it because diddy will be nerfed due to the complaints.

Plus, the jab cancel is not a glitch, but a combo. Yes the jab cancel is a glaring issue, but so is diddy grab game. oh yeah, killing a character with a grab combo at 100% is balance, sure!!!!!!!

You are a ****ing moron, please get some education before posting. You are wasting valuable space in our forums, as well as our time.

 

[Vonzar the Soulrender]

Had any of you notice last patch that it hit multiple characters, not just one. If link's combo is getting patch, then diddy down throw will get a nerf because hes way too dominant in tournaments, and many people are complaining about the down throw to be nerf. So if there doing another balance patch, im all for it because diddy will be nerfed due to the complaints.

Plus, the jab cancel is not a glitch, but a combo. Yes the jab cancel is a glaring issue, but so is diddy grab game. oh yeah, killing a character with a grab combo at 100% is balance, sure!!!!!!! While Rosy and shiek can only combo with their grabs at 40-60% before it stops working.

Hey man, you should do things the way movies and television do. Never go full ******. But you did, and right on the forums where everyone can see. How embarrassed you must feel!

 

[WhiteMageBD]

First of all, its against smashboards rules to insult another member, second of all, im stating what sakurai will most likely do. keep your insults to yourself and take it to consideration that sakurai will probably patch links new tech and hit other character like diddy in the process, like he did last balance patch.

 

[Catana]

keep your insults to yourself

******
****
******
Scrub
Idiot
Little *****
Sakurai's personal **** sucker

 

[Elessar]

Plus, the jab cancel is not a glitch, but a combo. Yes the jab cancel is a glaring issue, but so is diddy grab game. oh yeah, killing a character with a grab combo at 100% is balance, sure!!!!!!! While Rosy and shiek can only combo with their grabs at 40-60% before it stops working.

I wasn't going to reply to your original post anymore because I was done, but this deserves to be addressed.

1) You don't deside what a glaring issue is, Sakurai does. And no, Diddy's grab combo isn't a glaring issue or else diddy players would've done a lot better at Apex. They didn't, Zero won using diddy but that's Zero's merit, not him riding Diddy to free wins. Proof? tehre was only 1 Diddy it top 3, heck, in top 4 even. There were only 2 diddy's in top 8. That's not OP, that's not broken, it's a good char among other good chars.

2) Fixing Diddy's grab combo is balancing the game, which Sakurai did say he won't do anymore. Link's jablock is a game breaking exploit which anhialates balance. Learn to spot the difference between a good char and a broken one before talking about balance.

3) The jab cancel is an exploit, not a combo, much like CGs weren't combos in Brawl. A combo is jab1-utilt-jab1-grab-pound till realease-jab1-utilt-nair-tech chase. That's a combo, not jabjabjabjabjabjabjabjablolololol dsmash win.

4) no more balance patches, only fix patches. Learn the difference please before you keep saying things like

First of all, its against smashboards rules to insult another member, second of all, im stating what sakurai will most likely do. keep your insults to yourself and take it to consideration that sakurai will probably patch links new tech and hit other character like diddy in the process, like he did last balance patch.

5) I don't want this thread to devolve into flaming, which will happen. I also don't want to lock this thread, which I will do if the flames get out of hand. So stop derailing the thread this way. If you have anything useful to contribute to the MU then do it, but saying "just jab combo lol" isn't useful since you still need to get diddy to 50%+ and land a jab. For doing this you still need to learn how to play against char that is considerably better than Link in every way based on the current meta.

 

[WhiteMageBD]

I wasn't going to reply to your original post anymore because I was done, but this deserves to be addressed.

1) You don't design what a glaring issue is, Sakurai does. And no, Diddy's grab combo isn't a glaring issue or else diddy players would've done a lot better at Apex. They didn't, Zero won using diddy but that's Zero's merit, not him riding Diddy to free wins. Proof? tehre was only 1 Diddy it top 3, heck, in top 4 even. There were only 2 diddy's in top 8. That's not OP, that's not broken, it's a good char among other good chars.

2) Fixing Diddy's grab combo is balancing the game, which Sakurai did say he won't do anymore. Link's jablock is a game breaking exploit which anhialates balance. Learn to spot the difference between a good char and a broken one before talking about balance.

3) The jab cancel is an exploit, not a combo, much like CGs weren't combos in Brawl. A combo is jab1-utilt-jab1-grab-pound till realease-jab1-utilt.nair. tech chase. That's a combo, not jabjabjabjabjabjabjabjablolololol dair win.

4) no more balance patches, only fix patches. Learn the difference please before you keep saying things like



5) I don't want this thread to devolve into flaming, which will happen. I also don't want to lock this thread, which I will do if the flames get out of hand. So stop derailing the thread this way. If you have anything useful to contribute to the MU then do it, but saying "just jab combo lol" isn't useful since you still need to get diddy to 50%+ and land a jab. For doing this you still need to learn how to play against char that is considerably better than Link in every way based on the current meta.

My apologies for continuing a pointless argument, and you are right. Anyway, another way to beat diddy is edge guard, surprising hes easy to gimp because you can knock the barrell off of him, its predictable and his monkey flip has lag. best moves for the edgeguarding is falling nair or f-air. Plus there is no grab armor in this game, you can break diddy grab with down tilt.

 

[DarkDeity15]

To me, it seems like Link might have an even or slightly favorable MU against Diddy. He doesn't seem to have quite as hard of a time with him as say, Fox or Shiek for example. Even without ******** jab canceling infinites, Link seems like he has some of the tools necessary to deal with many of Diddy's shenanigans. His biggest issues here are his heavy weight, and punishable laggy moves. It could just be wishful thinking, so eh.

 

[Lawz.]

To me, it seems like Link might have an even or slightly favorable MU against Diddy. He doesn't seem to have quite as hard of a time with him as say, Fox or Shiek for example. Even without ******** jab canceling infinites, Link seems like he has some of the tools necessary to deal with many of Diddy's shenanigans. His biggest issues here are his heavy weight, and punishable laggy moves. It could just be wishful thinking, so eh.

His biggest issues are the reason why Link loses to Diddy so easily.

His heavy weight makes it stupid easy to uair juggle for free damage and with Diddy's uair beating Link's Nair (Link's only semi reliable option to stop combos), Link has a hard time dealing with this.

And Link having moves that are easily punishable just explains itself. Banana toss into grab pressure is extremely effective against Link. Dtilt frametraps are difficult for Link as it's faster than Link's jabs AND leads into grabs or (at higher percents) leads into fair or uair.

So no, this isn't even or slightly favorable for Link, not in the slightest.

 

[DarkDeity15]

His biggest issues are the reason why Link loses to Diddy so easily.

His heavy weight makes it stupid easy to uair juggle for free damage and with Diddy's uair beating Link's Nair (Link's only semi reliable option to stop combos), Link has a hard time dealing with this.

And Link having moves that are easily punishable just explains itself. Banana toss into grab pressure is extremely effective against Link. Dtilt frametraps are difficult for Link as it's faster than Link's jabs AND leads into grabs or (at higher percents) leads into fair or uair.

So no, this isn't even or slightly favorable for Link, not in the slightest.

You're definitely right about that. However, Diddy's naners never really phase me much because I'm pretty good at dealing with grab-able projectiles. I just don't think its that hard for Link, or at least, it ain't as hard as you may think. I mean it's hard, for sure. But it's no where near unbeatable and probably not as hard as you may think it is. Dispite Diddy being the proclaimed "best character in the game", he definitely isn't as big a deal when compared to other bad MUs. If I were to guess, it's in Diddy's favor. But not by miles. Link has plenty of tricks of his own.

 

[Lawz.]

You're definitely right about that. However, Diddy's naners never really phase me much because I'm pretty good at dealing with grab-able projectiles. I just don't think its that hard for Link, or at least, it ain't as hard as you may think. I mean it's hard, for sure. But it's no where near unbeatable and probably not as hard as you may think it is. Dispite Diddy being the proclaimed "best character in the game", he definitely isn't as big a deal when compared to other bad MUs. If I were to guess, it's in Diddy's favor. But not by miles. Link has plenty of tricks of his own.

Oh, I am by no means saying it's unbeatable. Sheik and Fox are definitely worse for Link, but it's not an even matchup.

 

[Dumbfire]

Diddy's recovery is surprisingly versatile, with great horizontal momentum due to Side B and a chargeable Up b that can cover great distance. He's not as easy to gimp as it may appear on first sight. It is important to spot when he is actually in a disadvantageous situation offstage, because that we can indeed take advantage of greatly.

 

[Linkmario00]

So, I see that no one has posted here since Feb, so I'm gonna revive this thread for discussing about post patch Diddy. So what do you think of Diddy's and Link's nerfs? Did the patch help in some way the MU for Link? Also, since customs are now a thing, how do they change the MU?

 

[DarkDeity15]

So, I see that no one has posted here since Feb, so I'm gonna revive this thread for discussing about post patch Diddy. So what do you think of Diddy's and Link's nerfs? Did the patch help in some way the MU for Link? Also, since customs are now a thing, how do they change the MU?

I think the MU is more or less the same as it was last time. Probably a bit worse with the loss of jab 1 cancel. But at least we can feel comfortable knowing that Diddy can no longer destroy us with hoo-hahs. We also have meteor bombs and normal rangs to help us out with escaping his grabs and for easy kill setups, so yeah.

 

[JTF]

With post patch Diddy, its pretty even since he can not combo you so much anymore. Just try to have more item controll and you can combo him pretty easily. He has a hard time approaching you so keep up the wall.

 

[Lawz.]

With post patch Diddy, its pretty even since he can not combo you so much anymore. Just try to have more item controll and you can combo him pretty easily. He has a hard time approaching you so keep up the wall.

Ummm he can still combo Link, it's not like Link's fast fall data is any different. Diddy's uthrow > uair does the exact same thing as previous dthrow did. And Diddy still has way better speed and frame data than Link. And it's not like Banana isn't one of the best OoS options in the game that leads to anything he chooses including a free fsmash.

This matchup still is not even.

 

[Catana]

okay so i finally decided to take some time to do some research in this mu as i struggle with it personally and also believe its in our top 5 worst matchups. some things may already have been said in this thread or be obvious but idc because i want to have everything i know so far put into one post. (im actually quite surprised this is a dead thread)

im posting this here as kind of an example as to what i believe now is the wrong way to play against diddy kong, even though i took a game. you can see me using projectiles and especially bombs/rangs a lot (as usual) to try and keep him out, but honestly these are very laggy moves (bomb pull speaks for itself, rang has a slow startup allowing diddy to punish with fair from pretty far away especially since his fair can also go through our boomerang [example at 1:12], and im not even going to mention arrows).

so basically, after some thinking i figured keeping projectiles to a minimum (only use them from the other side of the stage or to punish things you otherwise couldnt, obviously), and to abuse our ground normals more may be a better way to approach this matchup.

i went to training mode and decided to put a small test to the efficiency of this approach towards the mu, and focussed on to what i consider the 2 main problems in this matchup; diddy's fair and nana

fair:
the only reliable move that seems to be able to counter this crap is ftilt; its relatively safe to throw out and can just simply straight up out-prioritize diddy's fair, though you do have to kind of predict that diddy's fair but that shouldnt be too difficult as it tends to be thrown out quite a bit (in very rare occasions ive also found this can trade, but even then our ftilt does more damage/knockback so we still win anyway). fair can also be used to out-prioritize diddy's fair, but obviously its quite a bit laggier so i dont see much of a reason to not just pretty much always go for a ftilt.

other moves i tested against diddy's fair were jab, utilt, dtilt and nair; all of these moves seemed to trade with it very often which diddy will pretty much always win since his fair does 10%, and if it didnt it would have to be from a very specific range/position. (though i havent looked into dtilt that much, i feel like it may have quite some potential if spaced well enough but at the same time also very difficult to use it properly for this, so it may be a bit too unreliable)

nana:
i guess its this annoying thing thats the most troublesome for us in this mu, or at least it is for me, although pretty much everything we have is able to get rid of this thing. bombs go through, rang trades but we get ours back immediately so its in our favour, and arrows but there doesnt seem to be any reason to go for those.
even then, like i said before, bomb pull being slow as well as rang having a slow startup, i do not believe our projectiles should be used much for this, as diddy can often just shield and punish with a nana oos or just throw it when he predicts one (especially rang). the thing that actually is good, and i believe it to actually be pretty godlike for this purpose (and it may be pretty obvious, at least i kinda hope it is) is our jab; its pretty much completely safe and its not even difficult to time; just whenever you believe hes about to throw it, press jab (zair could also work, but its quite laggy and has a small hitbox so its not as reliable). this could cause diddy to either;

- dash into shield towards us in an attempt to block our jab and punish, however we can read this shield with a grab, which, according to the research of Fox Is Openly Deceptive on our dthrow followups, is highly rewarding:

Diddy: 4/5

Spoiler

0%: The only way for Diddy to avoid U-tilt is to DJ then immediately airdodge. DJ will get hit and airdodge will avoid it initially but then get hit by the latter frames of U-tilt when Diddy lands. Trying to hit Link with an aerial is too slow.

10%: U-tilt can only be avoided by DIing the D-throw behind Link and airdodging into the ground. We cannot punish the airdodge into the ground if it was used to dodge an U-tilt.

20%: U-tilt is unavoidable regardless of DI. U-smash is only avoidable by DIing away and airdodging or DIing behind Link and DJing then immediately airdodging.

30%: As above except now U-smash is unavoidable regardless of DI as well.

40%: As above.

50%: As above except FH Nair is now also unavoidable regardless of DI. Also FH Bair is only avoidable if Diddy DI's away in front of Link, which can then combo into Aerial Up-B or DJ Bair.

60%: As above except U-tilt and U-smash can now be avoided by DIing the D-throw away or behind Link (unless Link dashes briefly before the U-smash).

70%: As above except that FH immediate Aerial Up-B is unavoidable now to. FH Bair is still possible, but it now needs to be delayed slightly, not buffered out of the jump-squat frames, only now nothing combos out of it.

80%: As above except U-tilt is now completely out of range, and U-smash hits at the very tip, causing the opponent to be able to escape, so consider it out of range from this point onward as well. All you have is Nair, Bair and Up-B, all of which should be delayed slightly to hit the higher opponent. From this point onward you should also consider using Uair. It will never be guaranteed, but the only option Diddy has is to airdodge, which can be easily caught with the sourspot Uair.

90%: As above.

100%: Nair and Bair no longer work. Only Up-B is guaranteed. Uair as always remains a good option by this stage.

Beyond, FH Uairs, nothing technically guaranteed but it's as good as guaranteed in the right hands.

and if we do hit him with jab on his shield while hes holding his nana, jab2 will be completely safe (whereas zair more than likely wouldnt be) and we'll be able to shield (and/or powershield) up close if he attempts to throw it oos. however we're not able to actually punish this, may it be with or without powershielding (according to my testing), so it'll still be dangerous as we have this ebola char in our face but at least he wont be holding his banana anymore (we could also steal it as its deflected from our shield, but it may be risky), or just simply try to get away in w/e way you think will work out.

- attempt to camp and bait us to approach him, but when he does this he'll be more than likely at a safe distance for us to throw out projectiles, forcing him to approach us instead and therefore at the same time forcing him to deal with our jab.

if a nana is on the ground, as far as i know there is unfortunately not much we can do about it. in some rare situations we can throw a rang at it from a pretty precise angle and it'll trade but it doesnt seem reliable enough as it can be too difficult, or easily baited and punished.
if you are able to steal it from him, then do so and use it against him; hitting this successfully leads into everything, most importantly a grab, which is as said before highly rewarding or an fsmash which is able to kill as early as around 70%ish near the ledge without rage. (i make use of this at 7:15 in the vid that i posted, killing diddy from across the stage at 80% with 100% rage)

also one other thing i noticed was that if you try to look cool and block a nana with your hylian shield while standing, from the right range or from up close itll actually deflect the nana downwards causing it to still hit you nonetheless, so jokes on you if that happens.

i havent been able to properly test this approach to the matchup myself yet against a good diddy tbh, but im more than certain its how we should play it instead of trying to keep a wall of projectiles up all the time, and i'll definitely play the matchup this way when i face a good diddy in a tourney again. at the same time, this is also an extremely difficult way of playing since if you make any mistakes you'll get punished really hard. it takes top tier precision as well as some courage, but then again if you dont have those things you're not fit to playing link in the first place.

to anyone, feel free to add to some things that i may have failed to mention or to correct any mistakes if there are any

 

[MintyGuy700]

Catana

Can we do a "Bomb" Slide with the Banana?

 

[Catana]

Catana

Can we do a "Bomb" Slide with the Banana?

yes we can, cant believe i actually didnt mention that.. guess it was just too natural to me

 

[kxiong92]

One thing that seems to work really well that I've noticed from my match against JJrockets and other Diddys is having a bomb ready for banana. Shielding a banana and then oos bomb throw seems to work against most of Diddy's grounded banana plays. Also soft set bombs and soft throw bombs eats banana. When Diddy throws a banana, it is low enough to hit a bomb that has been set on the ground.

Other than that, most of the time you would want to play a keep away game.

 

[Catana]

One thing that seems to work really well that I've noticed from my match against JJrockets and other Diddys is having a bomb ready for banana. Shielding a banana and then oos bomb throw seems to work against most of Diddy's grounded banana plays.

Other than that, most of the time you would want to play a keep away game.

yes, bombs work well against bananas, but keep in mind that diddy is still able to punish the bomb pull from surprisingly far away simply due to his speed which is a pretty big issue. tbh i've always found that a surprising amount of players dont pay enough attention to bomb pull habits so they usually work better than they really should.
edit: just tested out bomb throw oos up close after powershielding a banana, didnt punish.

Also soft set bombs and soft throw bombs eats banana. When Diddy throws a banana, it is low enough to hit a bomb that has been set on the ground.

normal bomb throws can eat it as well, which also means you can bombslide through (though this is extremely risky to attempt). set bombs seem like kind of a waste of your bomb in this mu to me, if diddy throws his banana on it then its just the diddy being bad pretty much.

 

[kxiong92]

Yeah, I agree that normal bomb throws works too. But by having a soft set bomb on field it means space is being controlled by Link, most of the time. It is also there to put some pressure, limit options, and negate some of Diddy's grounded banana plays. And if Diddy doesn't do anything, Link can just pick the bomb up, and use it again.

Another thing, Link can also punish Diddy when he pulls out a banana. Link's speed can be problematic sometimes, but it is still doable. Diddy's banana pull is 40 frames just like Link's bomb pull if I'm reading the frame data correctly. But you'll have to watch out for the banana when Diddy turns his back when he does a banana pull.

 

[Catana]

Yeah, I agree that normal bomb throws works too. But by having a soft set bomb on field it means space is being controlled by Link, most of the time. It is also there to put some pressure, limit options, and negate some of Diddy's grounded banana plays. And if Diddy doesn't do anything, Link can just pick the bomb up, and use it again.

set bombs often just give a false sense of pressure towards the opponent though, as the bomb wont explode upon being touched, so technically you're not controlling anything until shortly before it explodes and when it actually does, in which case it can also just be waited out. i believe set bombs are only truly useful on platforms, where it limits most of their aerials and with that also an approach option for many characters including diddy kong, since it will explode once hit with a strong enough hitbox.

Another thing, Link can also punish Diddy when he pulls out a banana. Link's speed can be problematic sometimes, but it is still doable. Diddy's banana pull is 40 frames just like Link's bomb pull if I'm reading the frame data correctly. But you'll have to watch out for the banana when Diddy turns his back when he does a banana pull.

like you basically said; link is slow, however thats not the only issue, because diddy is also fast. link's speed doesnt only make it hard for him to punish things from a distance (unless we have a bomb in hand, in which case its still not that great), but due to diddy's speed its also much easier for him to run away from link than it is for link to run away to a position where you can safely pull out your projectile, making this not nearly as big of a deal for diddy as it is for link.
i agree that its doable though, and you should definitely go for it if you can as we have to take what we can get, but dont rely on it too much; even without a banana involved this is still a very difficult matchup.

 

[Lawz.]

Be aware that if the Diddy knows you are trying to punish banana pull, he can just reverse wavebounce the banana causing the projectils arc to go towards you while Diddy floats backward with momentum.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Just to clear up a couple of things.

and if we do hit him with jab on his shield while hes holding his nana, jab2 will be completely safe (whereas zair more than likely wouldnt be) and we'll be able to shield (and/or powershield) up close if he attempts to throw it oos.

This is surprisingly true. Assuming all inputs are frame-perfect:
If Jab 1 is shielded then Jab 2 will always hit Diddy on the frame before he throws the nana.
If however Jab 1 is power-shielded then Jab 2 will still hit but you'll also be hit by the nana if Diddy is close enough, which is bad for us. If Diddy is far enough away (say at the middle of the sword on Jab 1) and Jab 1 is power-shielded then Jab 2 will hit and will cancel out the nana.

Now, assuming that Diddy decides to wait and throw the nana OoS after Jab 2:
You will only be able to shield the nana if Diddy is at the absolute tip of the sword on Jab 2 (made easier if Jab 1 was not power-shielded because of minor shield-pushback).
There is however always the option of Jab 3. Jab 3 will, at worst, trade with Diddy's nana if the spacing is bad, which is an even trade and resets to neutral. If the spacing is even moderately decent, Jab 3 will cancel out the nana and hit Diddy.

If Diddy decides to wait for the third Jab, and you actually do it, then too bad for you. But at least now you have a mix-up with Jab 2 where you attempt to shield regardless of spacing, which is made viable if Diddy doesn't directly intend to punish it.

One thing that seems to work really well that I've noticed from my match against JJrockets and other Diddys is having a bomb ready for banana. Shielding a banana and then oos bomb throw seems to work against most of Diddy's grounded banana plays.

If you're holding a bomb and Diddy throws a nana at your shield, regardless of whether it is power-shielded or not, regardless of spacing, Diddy will always be able to shield the bomb. In fact no option OoS that we have is guaranteed against Diddy in this situation. Even right up close, i.e. worst case scenario for Diddy getting frame advantage, we only get a 3 frame advantage for power-shielding and a 2 frame advantage for shielding. Link can't do anything with that. Nothing guaranteed in any case.

 

[Lord Renning]

I'll try to contribute a bit to get this moving.

Diddy Kong is faster and likes to pressure Link, and he also likes to use banana traps and set ups.

Dealing with Pressure:
As Catana pointed out, straight projectile spam is largely useless Diddy is camping. Diddy is too strong and fast to give us time and space, and has too many movement options to simply get hit by objects, and it's difficult to react off stray confirms when only one in twenty land. He's going to be able to find the gaps in our walls and come inside to kick us in the face.

What our projectiles are good for is herding Diddy. By knowing and leaving gaps, we can predict or force Diddy to approach from a direction or angle. This is where we need to take advantage of, and why Catana already has the right idea about how to make this a sword fight. Our hit boxes are long and wide and disjointed. F-tilt, Up-Tilt, Up-Smash. These aren't good for speed contests, but they're good at making swaths around us of no-fly zones. By, for example, throwing a boomerang upwards, we will tell Diddy to come in straight, and he'll rush in to our jab. Our jab, as was pointed out, is really good at dealing with Diddy whether he has a banana or not, and outspaces his attacks. By throwing bombs or arrows forward, Diddy will jump and approach from the air, or monkey flip in. Straight into our F-tilt or turnaround tilt, which beats his flip or fair. If he tries to go over us, Up-Tilt or Up-Smash or jump and leave your Up-Air hanging out, or meet him with a F-air or Nair if you're confident. A smart Diddy will know the safe distances, and so we'll need to use pivots and whatnot to adjust our spacing. If he's going too high for our sword, then he's giving us space to chase and herd with projectiles again. Basically, we're using our projectiles not to hit him, but to say, "Hey, there's a hit box over here. How about you take another path to Swordstown?" By mixing this with ones actually aimed at him, he shouldn't be able to tell we're manipulating him.

When to use projectiles:

When he pulls out his banana.
When he's knocked away by our strikes.
When he's running away to reset.
When he's trying to set up banana traps or pick up his Banana.

I think the safe distance where we can comfortably transition to sword style is if he's half to 3/4's a Battlefield stage length away.

Okay, so now Diddy can't just run up and punch you in the face, and since projectiles are still happening, he can't just lollygag around the field waiting for you to approach. He might want to lay down banana traps and be more tactical, but any of our projectiles or sword strikes can destroy his banana, and pulling it out is going to make him feel like how we feel when we wanted to pull bomb and he wanted to kung fu in our face. This leaves him with going paw against sword, and that comes down to your timing and spacing. By keeping him at the edge our Master Sword, we can win. But if you screw up and he gets inside prepare to be hoo-ha'd and down tilted. Work in double jabs to grab and the occasional tether grab when he tries to hang just outside our sword range, and we can really put a lot of pressure and insecurities on a character who's used to fooling on enemies.

Getting back on stage:

Already covered mostly, but I'll add this. Diddy's like to hang around the ledge setting up bananas to cover options, and whatnot. If you're coming from high, drop down and zair above the ledge. This will hit him and you can grab the ledge and get up safely. It can also hit and break the banana, which takes away the coverage he relied on. You mix this up with Zairing to the ledge proper. Add bomb tosses and boomerangs and Link Stuff as needed.

Banana notes:

Down Tilting in range of a banana tends to be a reliable way to pick it up. Down tilt won't destroy a grounded banana, nor will up tilt. Nor will any aerial. Jabs, f-tilt, and F-smash, Up-Smash, and Down Smash will. F-tilt and Down-Smash will continue on like nothing happened, but hitting it with F-smash or Up-Smash will stop you cold, and it will stutter your jab.

 

[Stryker95]

Patch 1.1.6
Options Out of Shield for Diddy MU:
For data on shields I used this document by LordWilliam1234 and looked at the advantage drop and advantage out of shield (I called the disadvantage drop and disadvantage out of shield so I don’t have to deal with negative numbers). I tested every move on shield to test if they pushed Link away or how well they could space and then tested what options we had that could still reach.
Link’s OOS:

Spoiler: Link's OOS

Jump cancelled Up-B- 8 frame start up

Jump cancelled U-Smash- 10 frame start up

Shield Grab- 11 frame start up (12 frame grab start up, 2 frame spot dodge start up for Diddy, keep in mind that the tether will take longer to grab if the opponent is further away)

Jab- 14 frame start up (7 frame shield drop, 7 frame jab)

U-Tilt- 15 (7 frame shield drop, 8 frame start up)

D-Smash- 16 frame start up (7 frame shield drop, 9 frame start up)

D-Tilt- 18 frame start up (7 frame shield drop, 11 frame start up)

F-Tilt- 22 frame start up (7 frame shield drop, 15 frame start up) Can take a few frames longer as F-Tilt has hitboxes can hit later depending on when the Master Sword connects.

F-Smash- 22 frame start up (7 frame shield drop, 15 frame start up)

Dash Attack- 28 frame start up (7 frame shield drop, 1 frame to start dash, 20 frame start up) Can take a few frames longer as F-Tilt has hitboxes can hit later depending on when the Master Sword connects.

Bomb throw- 8 frame start up (7 frames start up, 1 frame before blast)

Note on bombs: Bombs will connect even if enemy is right in your face. They come out faster than grab, but while both are active (tether and bomb moving through the air) tether moves faster than a bomb.

Some abbreviations (because I don’t want to write them out all the time):

Spoiler

DD: Disadvantage drop- this means how many frames Link has to punish Diddy after dropping shield first.

For example, Link has a jab with a 7 frame start up. If the DD of a move is 7 or more, Link can punish Diddy with this move.

DO: Disadvantage out of shield- this means how many frames Link has to punish Diddy using a direct OOS, like grab or jump cancelled moves.

For example, Up-B OOS has an 8 frame start-up, so if the DO is 8 or more, than Up-B OOS will punish.

I tested this in training mode 1/4 speed hold L, so these are frame perfect, keep that in mind when deciding what you want to use for your punish. I list all possible punishes considering good spacing and the fact that some moves push Link away, making some options that are fast enough not an option, I will point these out as they come.

If I state something as “perfect spacing” I mean Diddy hitting the edge of shield, meaning he would have whiffed entirely if Link was not shielding.

"Good spacing" means Diddy would barely hit Link if Link was not shielding.

"Bad spacing" means Diddy and Link are very close together.

Next are Diddy’s moves:

Spoiler: Jab

Jab (1): DD: 21, DO: 28

At perfect spacing Grab, Bomb, Jab, D-Tilt, D-Smash and F-Smash will punish.

At good spacing Grab, Bomb, Jab, D-Tilt, D-Smash, F-Tilt, F-Smash, U-Tilt, U-Smash and Up-B will punish.

Jab (2): DD: 22, DO: 29

At perfect spacing Grab, Bomb, Jab, D-Tilt, D-Smash, F-Tilt, and F-Smash will punish.

At good spacing Grab, Bomb, Jab, D-Tilt, D-Smash, F-Tilt, F-Smash, U-Tilt, U-Smash and Up-B will punish.

Note: At perfect spacing, if Jab 1 connects and Link drops shield or does an OOS (excluding Up-B), Jab 2 may miss. Up-B will trade. At good or bad spacing and this method is tried, Up-B will trade, all others will not work.

Jab (3): DD: 15 DO: 22

At perfect spacing Grab, Bomb, and F-Smash will punish.

At good spacing Grab, Bomb, D-Tilt, D-Smash, Jab, Up-B, and F-Smash will punish.

At bad spacing Grab, Bomb, D-Tilt, D-Smash, Jab, Up-B, U-Smash, U-Tilt, and F-Smash will punish

Note: If Jab 2 connects and Link drops shield or does an OOS, Jab 3 may miss.

Rapid Jab: If Diddy holds the rapid jab to a point where it pushes Link too far away to hit Link’s shield, Up-B may punish and Bomb may trade.

Jab Ender DD: 23, DO: 30

At perfect or good spacing Grab, Bomb, and Dash Attack will punish.

At bad spacing Grab, Bomb, D-Tilt, D-Smash, Jab, Up-B, U-Smash, F-Tilt, U-Tilt, and F-Smash will punish. (Dash Attack will no longer punish as it takes Link’s knee too long to reach Diddy.

Spoiler: F-Tilt

F-Tilt: DD: 12 DO: 19

At any spacing Grab will punish.

At bad spacing Grab, Bomb, Jab, Up-B, U-Tilt, U-Smash, D-Tilt, and D-Smash will punish.

Spoiler: D-Tilt

D-Tilt: DD: 2 DO: 9

At good spacing Up-B can punish.

With bad spacing Up-B and Bomb can punish, but if Link is too close the bomb may go over Diddy.

Spoiler: U-Tilt

U-Tilt: DD: 14 DO: 21

For the hit when Diddy faces Link:

At perfect spacing Grab, Bomb, Jab, D-Tilt, and D-Smash will punish.

At good spacing Grab, Bomb, Up-B, Jab, D-Tilt, and D-Smash will punish.

With bad spacing Grab, Bomb, Up-B, Jab, D-Tilt, U-Tilt, U-Smash, and D-Smash will punish.

For the hit when Diddy faces away from Link:

At perfect spacing Grab, Bomb, Jab, and D-Smash will punish.

At good spacing Grab, Bomb, Up-B, Jab, D-Tilt, and D-Smash will punish.

With bad spacing Grab, Bomb, Up-B, Jab, D-Tilt, U-Tilt, U-Smash, and D-Smash will punish.

Spoiler: Dash Attack

Dash Attack: DD: 11 DO: 18

With Diddy ending the Dash Attack as far from Link but in front of Link while still hitting shield:

Grab, Bomb, Up-B, U-Smash, U-Tilt, D-Tilt, D-Smash, and jab will punish.

With Diddy ending the Dash Attack as far from Link and behind Link:
U-B, U-Smash, U-Tilt, D-Smash (hit 2), Turn-around jab, Turn-around F-Tilt, Turn-around D-Tilt, Turn-around D-Smash, Turn-around F-Smash, Turn-around Dash Attack, Turn-around Bomb, and Turn-around Grab.

Spoiler: F-Smash

F-Smash: DD: 13 DO: 20

If only the second hit of F-Smash hits perfectly Grab and Bomb will punish.

If the first hit of F-Smash connects at perfect spacing followed by the second hit then Grab, Bomb, Jab, D-Tilt, and D-Smash will punish.

If the first hit of F-Smash connects at good spacing followed by the second hit then Grab, Bomb, Up-B, Jab, D-Tilt, and D-Smash will punish.

If the first hit of F-Smash connects at bad spacing followed by the second hit then Grab, Bomb, Jab, D-Tilt, Up-B, U-Tilt, U-Smash, and D-Smash will punish.

Spoiler: D-Smash

D-Smash: DD: 30/19 DO: 37/26 (Second number is for second hit)

First hit: With perfect spacing Grab, Bomb, F-Smash, Dash Attack, Walk-up Jab, Walk-up D-Tilt, Walk-up D-Smash, Walk-up F-Tilt, and Walk-up Up-B.

With good spacing Grab, Bomb, F-Smash, Dash Attack, Jab, Walk-up D-Tilt, Walk-up D-Smash, F-Tilt, Walk-up U-Tilt, and Walk-up Up-B.

With bad spacing Grab, Bomb, F-Smash, Dash Attack, Jab, D-Tilt, D-Smash, F-Tilt, Walk-up U-Tilt, Walk-up U-Smash, and Up-B.

Second hit: With perfect spacing Grab and Bomb will punish.

With good spacing Grab, F-Smash, and Bomb will punish.

With bad spacing Grab, F-Smash, F-Tilt, Jab, Bomb, D-Tilt, Up-B, and Bomb will punish.

Spoiler: Up-Smash

Up-Smash: DD: 31 DO: 38

No matter the spacing or side, anything can punish. (Be careful no to do a move too soon or it will go under Diddy.)

Aerials: This is tricky. Aerials will vary because of when they hit the shield (on top, the middle, etc.), sweetspot or sourspot, autocancelling, or if the opponent screws up or not. I will just place the DD and DO as well as landing lag and auto-cancels at the end of moves. (Note: If auto cancelled, Diddy suffers only 4 frames of landing lag.)

Spoiler: Nair

Nair: DD: 1 DO: 8 Landing lag: 13 Auto-cancel: 59>

Up-B or Bomb may punish.

Spoiler: Fair

Fair: DD: 12/13 DO 19/20. (Second number is for weak hit) Landing Lag: 26 Auto-cancel: 26>

Grab, Bomb, Up-B, Jab, U-Tilt, and U-Smash may punish either hit.

Spoiler: Bair

Bair: DD: -2 DO: 5 Landing lag: 12 Auto-cancel: 20>

Nothing will punish if done correctly.

Spoiler: Dair

Dair: DD: 12 DO: 19 (Second number is for weak hit) Landing lag: 28 Auto-cancel: 37>

Grab, Bomb, Jab, Up-B, U-Tilt, and U-Smash may punish.

Spoiler: Upair

Upair: DD: 9 DO: 16 Landing Lag: 21 Auto-Cancel: 27>

Grab, Bomb, Jab, Up-B, U-Tilt, and U-Smash may punish.

Specials

Spoiler: Pop-Gun (Neutral B)

Pop-Gun: DD: 20 DO: 27

As a projectile, what can punish depends on how far away Link is from Diddy. At Link’s grab max range, Grab and Bomb can’t punish. The peanut will not push Link very far, so a rule of thumb is if Link is in sword range he can punish asides from Dash Attack. Grab and Bomb will reach roughly 3/4ths of Links grab range.

Fully Charged Pop-Gun DD: 83 DO: 90

Anything can punish.

Spoiler: Monkey-Flip (Side B)

Monkey Flip (Attack): This move has 18 frames of Landing Lag. If the move ends in front of Link, Grab, Bomb, Up-B, Jab, U-Tilt, U-Smash, D-Tilt, D-Smash, F-Tilt, and F-Smash will punish. If Diddy hits Link’s shield as early as possible he will go behind Link and slide. Turnaround Grab and Turnaround Bomb may punish but can fail.

Spoiler: Banana (Down B)

Banana Toss: DD: 0 DO: 7
Can’t punish.

Banana throw standing: DD: -6 DO: 1

Can’t punish.

Banana throw dash: DD: 12 DO: 19

As a projectile, this depends on spacing. Grab, Bomb, Jab, Up-B, U-Tilt, U-Smash, D-Tilt and D-Smash may punish.

Spoiler: ”Rocket Barrel (Up-B)"

Rocket Barrel: If Diddy does this and goes straight up, anything can punish. The move deals little shield stun but can go through Link and travel a great distance depending on the amount of charge which makes this move difficult to punish.

 

[Bigbomb2]

I am horrendous at falling for a grab after he chucks a banana at my shield. I found that's where I really struggle. Actually getting grabbed seems to be my bane with most of the people I face. I read through this thread and see some good advice, but I'm still confused what I should be doing if he's close to me with a banana. I shouldn't fall for the same thing, but I always seem to not figure out other options at that range.

 

[GhettoNinja]

I am horrendous at falling for a grab after he chucks a banana at my shield. I found that's where I really struggle. Actually getting grabbed seems to be my bane with most of the people I face. I read through this thread and see some good advice, but I'm still confused what I should be doing if he's close to me with a banana. I shouldn't fall for the same thing, but I always seem to not figure out other options at that range.

If you're shielding, everything Diddy does is unsafe. Just bait out his command grab and up Smash OoS.