Social Mr. Game & Watch Social - The Flat Zone

[meleebrawler]

Most damaging smash
Kills earliest especially when U-smash is stale.

Whacking people who have have either
missed the edge or people you made miss the
edge with Dtilt.

 

[Rakurai]

Forward smash really only works well as a punish against laggy moves, or against a mistimed air dodge/up B from my experience.

 

[PEPESPAIN]

I was spamming this forum with "UpSmash is broken guys !, and no one believed me... Now, everyone starts to realize it when I don't post anymore... That's silly xD

You were right... but the most important thing here is doing a jump cancelled upsmash OOS between multihit attacks ;P

 

[SFA Smiley]

They have to be slower multihit attacks though. My training partners use Wario (Dair) and Yoshi (Dair) they hit too quickly

HOWEVER

Yeah Usmash is actually definitely pretty good. Yesterday I figured out how to use it and had much better results.

So now you guys should practice JC Reverse Usmashes because we can use that to probably stuff some attacks that normally we wouldn't

 

[ChivalRuse]

Being a small guy, GaW's crouch is pretty good for avoiding aerial approaches, projectiles, and the like. Anybody else use ducking in this way?

 

[TheMiSP]

Being a small guy, GaW's crouch is pretty good for avoiding aerial approaches, projectiles, and the like. Anybody else use ducking in this way?

I do that to Link, most likely forcing him to throw a bomb that I can bucket.

Been doing that to ZSS. Obvious examples are dash attack and even fsmash. Now what? She's gonna dsmash? Bucket. Usmash? Not enough horizontal range.
Down B? Just use Fire to safely get out. Approaching with dair? Tank and punish with usmash.

Now I'm wondering if I can crouch under her side B and her grab.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Small characters may be light and die off the blast zones earlier, but they are little too, making them adorable and meaning they can hide places better.

On a more serious note, dash attack is godlike. They definitely buffed its range since previous incarnations.
You know what's weird about GaW though; I find myself killing with bair more often than other moves. I can't seem to land his smash attacks for the life of me (maybe because I just don't know how). D-smash seems pretty fast out of shield, but the other two are just ... kind of slow.

 

[ROBnWatch]

3DS or U?

Wii U.

 

[SFA Smiley]

All this character does now is Dash Attack so get used to doing that.

 

[ChivalRuse]

I wish GaW had more solid KO moves. Uair is like his best non-smash KO move. Bucket is just a gimmick and judgment hammer is pure luck. I don't think his tilts can KO at good percents either.

 

[G-Guy]

I wish GaW had more solid KO moves. Uair is like his best non-smash KO move. Bucket is just a gimmick and judgment hammer is pure luck. I don't think his tilts can KO at good percents either.

the chair can. I have a replay saved where I kill a ZSS at around 100% from near the edge of FD. Could have killed her earlier, judging the speed she flew away. edit: nope

Anyway, side tilt is a really good option here, I may need to run some tests with it, though...

TO THE FLATCAVE!


Edit:

So, the Flatcomputer told me that ZSS dies at 105% from the edge of FD period, while Bowser needs to be at 140%.
Still, G&W is pretty good at racking up damage and the chair comes out incredibly fast, so I'd say it's an OK-ish kill option. Smash attacks (USmash in particular) and chasing the enemy off stage seem to be more reliable.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Yeah I'm liking f-tilt for speed. Uair works from d-throw but you can only get the KO from d-throw uair at threshold percentages and not in every matchup. Guess I'll have to start working d-smash and up-smash into my game.

 

[G-Guy]

I use Dsmash for punishing rolls, it comes fast and leaves fast so I usually dont get punished for it. Usmash is really great thanks to the invincibility on the head-portion.

Don't disregard the bucket as "just a gimmick". It helps against certain characters and you can combo into it from dthrow.

Stuff I usually use the bucket for are Ness's PK Thunder pressure tactics (or when I am bold i try to snatch the one he needs to recover with), Jumping through Robin's Arcfire (fills the bucket instantly), bomb explosions, Bowser's firebreath or Sheik's UpB explosion is safe to bucket, as well.

It is a nice mind game tool, but experienced players will notice when you rely too much on it and punish it's long cooldown when it is not filled.

If you got your opponent up in the corner, don't be afraid to bumrush with fire. sometimes that's all it needs :-)

 

[Neb]

As many have agreed, usmash is the move that consistently seals the deal. Converting it into an abrupt approach allows G&W to reclaim lost ground and command respect in the spacing war. I believe we have only scratched the surface of its utility as an anti-air (even vs. swordsmen), go-to when dashA isn't mean enough, and or counter when given a few frames. It happens to be one of G&W's safer options for popping an opponent into juggles, and also steering the juggles into knockout. Often times you will have to fight the urge to use it excessively, as it happens to function as a crutch for G&W's new ground-centered zoning. Sometimes I will prolong air traps simply to refresh the smash with my uair. Always be looking for an opportunity to make contact with G&W's windboxes.

Other tools I have found useful... fast fall nair into dsmash. Works best on larger character, however, be sure the fish are out before collapsing on your opponent or else it pops them out of reach. Echoing G-guy, chair near the blast zone around 110% is solid, and just the same with jab and dashA. You will also notice these moves position the enemy for killing off the blast zones with Upb. But dashA especially since you can time its lingering hitbox against ledge snaps.

Got more to say, but I'll wait.

 

[Deleted member]

Hey guys. I was looking around on youtube one day when I discovered this.

Supposedly, G&W was able to trap a cpu ROB in an infinite Jab on Corneria. Is this legitimate or just a case of terrrible DI?

 

[WindozeNT]

Hey guys. I was looking around on youtube one day when I discovered this.

Supposedly, G&W was able to trap a cpu ROB in an infinite Jab on Corneria. Is this legitimate or just a case of terrrible DI?

Bad DI. I wasn't able to reproduce it on a stationary ROB in training mode. Also, the neutral A moves both the opponent and Mr. Game & Watch back from each other whenever it connects so unless there's a wall immediately behind both of them, DIing towards G&W is the only thing that can keep you in it. He used to have something of an almost-infinite in Brawl with his dtilt when an opponent was by a wall, but it doesn't work in 4 because of more endlag and its pushback on G&W like the neutral A's. Also, his dair moves him slightly upward before he plunges down and can be used as a recovery if he barely misses a ledge.

 

[SFA Smiley]

Paper won a tourney in Cali yesterday.

 

[ROBnWatch]

Hey guys. I was looking around on youtube one day when I discovered this.

Supposedly, G&W was able to trap a cpu ROB in an infinite Jab on Corneria. Is this legitimate or just a case of terrrible DI?

Actually, I've been able to do something similar to this on the Wii U game, both with an opponent trapped in the jab and without. I wish I had video proof, but I was able to continuously jab without getting the finisher to come out.

 

[shapular]

I played a very tough Zelda in FG today. My Yoshi and ZSS lost several games each, and I managed to take a couple games with Link before getting stomped using him too. I decided I needed to use a close-range character to beat him. I would've gone Mii Brawler first but that's obviously a no go in FG. So I decided to break out the trusty old G&W. I honestly thought I would get whooped since I haven't been using him much and he's been falling behind my other secondaries. Instead, I won four straight games with him. That gave me a bit of faith in my Smash 4 G&W, and I may use him more often now, at least as a Zelda CP. I don't think he's as bad as I thought he is. I think this character is still usable. Just wish he had a more reliable kill option.

Unfortunately, the Zelda stopped throwing Din's Fires at me after I got a comeback win with a last-hit nair to bucket 0-death kill right after he respawned. >:D

 

[Pazzo.]

Paper won a tourney in Cali yesterday.

Any videos?

 

[SFA Smiley]

I don't think so, upon further investigation it seems like it wasn't a very big one

but hey it is what it is.

 

[Kofu]

We can duck under Marth/Lucina's Shield Breaker. Probably not Kirby's but that won't come up except in doubles. That makes landing against it much less scary.

 

[SFA Smiley]

OK guys let's talk about something that i find really rough with GW but still haven't figured a way around it yet.

GW is a character that's good at making characters chase him but has no way to make characters chase him, he's got the speed, small stature and moves, but no projectiles to force approaches (Bacon is a zoning projectile that doesn't really force approaches)

How do we do the distant mid range game? Dtilt no longer reliably keeps people from getting in our face and bair is no longer a safe poke. How do we control this range? without any real spacing moves (Because throwing these out will get us punished)

Who has ideas?

Fair is faster but not really a great spacing move because we need that fresh for reliable edgeguarding

Not having any moves to really space (because our smashes are no longer scary or cause significant shield push) i think is honestly the biggest weakness of GW.

Does anybody think Perfect pivots will be aboslutely necessary for competitive GW down the road because of this? Because we require that extra movement option or particular spacing not to be baited out too easily?

We can run away all day, we have the tools to do this, but what if we're already behind?

 

[Rakurai]

Customs would be great for G&W, between the Heavy Trampoline giving him a OoS KO option, and the Short Order Chef giving him a projectile that can force people to approach him.

 

[Neb]

Smiley, this is something I've also been brooding over.

The only zones G&W seems equipped to maintain are up-down, and around the edge. Playing a safe neutral gets him bullied into the corners of the map where he cannot space properly and we're pressured into risky maneuvers. I have played with the perfect pivot and can see it becoming a preferred mode of transportation, as the wavedash was for Game & Watch in melee. Not because of the hype, but because his best poke appears to be ftilt and usmash. Being able to push or retreat chair without walking or pivoting out of a dash is notable.

Shoot. Being able to quickly move in-and-out is something that will only support his baiting game. And open up other tools in the neutral, such as: tippered dsmash and dtilt, dashA feints, and or jab as a poke, while lengthening his overall grab range.

Beyond the perfect pivot, a metagame that has evolved to excel in the air would force G&W's opponent to jump in order to inflict damage. If G&W is in the air more than he is on the ground, our opponent will have to approach. Can we develop that idea? Having the choice to focus his zone on the ground or air might be interesting.

 

[Ghost Pikmin]

Agreeing that this is also something that I've been struggling to figure out. More often than not I feel like I can win only when my opponent gets impatient and tries to swat at me because G&W is really solid at punishing whiffed swats. If an opponent just holds their ground patiently and plays reactively (or worse, has actual camping tools), I can't think of any good ways to force the issue.

It's one of the reasons I've grown to like counterpicking traveling stages like Delfino at tournaments that allow it: the stage transitions force the other player to be mobile and often airborne for a brief window, opening them up better for shenanigans. But that's not really a viable solution in the bigger problem.

 

[SFA Smiley]

I don't think being in the air is any more beneficial (and if anything, less so)

If you're on the ground at least you have dash attack, pivot ftilt, and perfect pivots

In the air you have less options now that airdodging into the ground is risky. Bair is super punishable, nair is less punishable but still very much so, and all you can really do is up-b away (which doesn't really help and further limits your options)

Fair would be the saving grace but i haven't adapted to using fair in neutral to say whether it's actually viable.

My neutral is pretty good but if I have to outplay my opponent over and over again, I don't really wanna rely on that, because i can just be doing that with a stronger character that will get harder punishes off of it like shiek

If someone can test using fair at that massive blindspot in GWs game and give their results that'd be cool. I'm working all day tomorrow so i wont get the opportunity to play

 

[Saikyoshi]

Customs would be great for G&W, between the Heavy Trampoline giving him a OoS KO option, and the Short Order Chef giving him a projectile that can force people to approach him.

The problem with that is that this is the same character that has the primary argument against allowing custom moves: Extreme Judge.

 

[lllp3lll]

I mostly create walls with Fair, and adapt to how they approach. (Uairs to refresh it.)
Half the time I'm just fair'ing the empty center of the stage to claim area control/presents.

I crumble from non-energy based zoning (link, TL)

 

[Saikyoshi]

I mostly create walls with Fair, and adapt to how they approach. (Uairs to refresh it.)
Half the time I'm just fair'ing the empty center of the stage to claim area control/presents.

I crumble from non-energy based zoning (link, TL)

He can duck under arrows.

 

[Neb]

P3 has my thoughts for G&W being mostly aerial in those times he wants more ground. Jumping fairs isn't something I often do, but can see working. An opponent has to either meet you in the air or punish your landing. Concerning the first option, G&W's horizontal mobility would allow him to go in-and-out of longer ranged aerials and poke with the sour spot. A better angle can permit Upb or uair. But it can be difficult protecting yourself as you land. If G&W saves his jump or works the angle to close off their options, then maybe. How you land as you perform the wall also gives your opponent an idea of risk and reward. Say usmashing at the bottom.

 

[Kofu]

The problem with that is that this is the same character that has the primary argument against allowing custom moves: Extreme Judge.

Extreme Judge isn't even good. You're probably going to be building more percent on yourself than you're dealing/KOing, and that's assuming you land Judge on a regular basis. I usually get one, maybe two a match? The move isn't fast. Chain Judge is generally considered better because the higher numbers give good shield pressure. Normal Judge is probably best in the air, though, since it's one decisive hit that the opponent can't escape from.

 

[Saikyoshi]

Extreme Judge isn't even good. You're probably going to be building more percent on yourself than you're dealing/KOing, and that's assuming you land Judge on a regular basis. I usually get one, maybe two a match? The move isn't fast. Chain Judge is generally considered better because the higher numbers give good shield pressure. Normal Judge is probably best in the air, though, since it's one decisive hit that the opponent can't escape from.

I personally do land with Normal Judge pretty often. There is, after all, an 8/9 chance something that benefits me will happen, especially if I use it as a punish or at the tail end of a combo.

But anyway, that's just what I keep hearing people bring up when they argue against custom moves.

 

[lllp3lll]

How you land as you perform the wall also gives your opponent an idea of risk and reward. Say usmashing at the bottom.

I wall with full hop rising Fair's, these are usually perfect for smacking tall/big characters. I also use rising Fair's since I can input another aerial option before landing. As a rule of thumb I never try to land with Fair or Bair.

If my opponent tries to approach via dashing under Fair (example Marth)- I'll land with a Nair or FF Nair.
If they want to short hop- that's Upsmash bait
If they want to come from above- (flying characters jigs) UpB

My landing options also include :
Chef (mashed)- Discourage Approaching, Acquire Space
Dash jab

I don't like Ftilt useless there at 140%, I prefer Dash attack and jab

 

[SFA Smiley]

I got the hypest 9s in tournament today lmao

they actually won us the doubles set

can't wait to show you guys, it legit turned around the momentum drastically

 

[Neb]

Zone with fair. It works very well.

 

[TheMiSP]

So apparently I'm torn, mostly between choosing side and up specials.

So I've got regular Fire. The deal of the package. Invincibility. Height. Glide. Combo finisher/aerial punisher, maybe a starter. And that tiiiny windbox.

Heavy Trampoline. Full invincibility for ascension. Average height. Somehow reduced gravity on glide compared to regular Fire. Great shield eater. Racks up damage, can also finish combo when distanced accordingly. Don't know about windbox.

Finally Trampoline Launch, the one I've been eyeing upon. Regular invincibility? Super height. Can make up for lack of glide when you immediately attack and use SJ (otherwise about half distance than regular glide). Quite a kill move. Don't know about hitting shields with it. Neither the windbox. But you lose the ascending hitbox.



Then the two side specials.

Regular Judge. Maybe it does have some gimping potential. Who wants to see the opponent's reaction when you hit them with a 3 far off stage?

Or Chain. To rack up damage, avoid recoil, and pressure shields. More for grounded use only.



Now which ones should I chose? Maybe which ones for what archetypes?

 

[SFA Smiley]

Chain seems like the best judge easily. I imagine heavy trampoline is really amazing. It does like 16% or something. That's like 20+% on every grab

 

[Rakurai]

I think one of the things I like most about Heavy Trampoline is how the late hit on it has weak vertical knockback that allows you to combo into an aerial from low to mid percents if it connects at the right distance.

It also does 10% damage, meaning you'll be getting more mileage out of your down throws even after your opponent starts bouncing too far to hit them with the sweetspot or any other attack.

 

[WindozeNT]

This video was posted on Reddit the other day showing G&W in For Glory.