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Social Mr. Game & Watch Social - The Flat Zone

D

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So I guess we're all wasting our time here and should move
on to some better characters, or wait for some buffs in a patch that may or may not be happening?
Hoping for a patch to fix G&W is useless at this rate. I think the most recent patch was just to balance the WiiU version with the 3DS. Even at that, I doubt that he'll even be fixed up in future patches if there are any. It takes an entire community to say something in order for an action to be taken, it seems. Take Rosalina for an example. Once people started crying out that she was overpowered in 1.0.3 and before, she was nerfed in the next patch (although she's still good in 1.0.4). Sadly, I'm not sure if enough of an uprising could be made to show how G&W needs to be buffed.

I agree with everything else you said though, we should try to remain positive with what we have.
 

Rakurai

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They're going to be putting in patches for tournament mode, replay sharing, and Mewtwo.

I'm assuming those are likely the only times they'll issue more balance changes if at all.
 

Kofu

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Mr. G&W is bad. Period. Anyone here who thinks he's anywhere near viable in real competitive play is either fooling themselves or doesn't actually understand high level competitive play. I've been using him since Brawl's release. And after trying and trying and trying, there is simply no way to use him effectively against anyone who has REAL matchup experience.

His smash game has been nerfed, horribly. He's lost the lingering hit box on f-smash, and the lasting hit box on dsmash has been reduced significantly. Both moves suffered significantly reduced knock back as well. Group those with the already highly punishable up smash, and G&W can now be easily punished on any of his smashes, god help you if you hit a shield. He had some saving grace with the invincibility frames he now has on up smash, but it hardly makes up for anything. Everyone is already learning to just walk away and punish after. If you're playing anyone who consistently dies by up-smash, THEY ARE NOT SKILLED PLAYERS. They are aggro-rushing fools. Arguing that up-smash is amazing is like arguing that warlock punch is amazing; of course it is, if they're dumb enough to walk into it.

Uptilt hits only directly above him, a limiting hit box that often leaves other moves as more practical options. Downtilt now has a cute little windbox which does little but occasionally catch your opponents off guard. Ftilt is probably his safest move period, and can provide kills at higher percentages, which I argue is the only character specific buff he received that proves useful.

Aerials got the shaft too. Increased landing lag on everything makes fair dangerous and dair very punishable, especially now that you can't control it's midair speed nearly as well or reliably as before. Uair has a reduced windbox, and SSB Air Dodge has made it nearly impossible to even land. Does have a nice little kill window, but you can easily miss it, causing the first hit of Uair to provide too much knock back for the second hit to land. Bair had its last poking hit removed, and is easily punished on shield. It is NOT a safe approach. You WILL be shieldgrabbed between hits. Nair has remained mainly the same visually, but contains much less priority.

Bucket is worthless against anyone who doesn't have an energy based projectile (or bombs now I guess, woohoo.) and even if they do have them, should be able to use them effectively if the player has any match-up experience at all. Judgement if anything received a nerf in that it is now truly random. I used to be able to risk my life throwing out that super punishable move knowing I wouldn't hit a 1 the next two times, now I don't know what to expect. (note: the multihit judge is very useful, but since we're apparently banning customs this doesn't help.) Up-B remains a safe recovery, and Chef tends to fly more practically, but hardly provides enough hitstun under 90 to do much more than throw a cheap shot out for a couple percent when the situation is optimal.

Throws remained the same save for dthrow, which sets up wonderfully on some of the cast, but can't be used on certain characters (a good Yoshi will Nair through your Nair.) G&W still continues to have one of the worst grab ranges in the game, however, so good luck getting close enough.

What people don't realize about G&W is that he will destroy characters "worse" than him harder than many characters above him can, but too many characters have too many moves that will guarantee a KO on G&W at 80% or higher. Certain matchups are literally unplayable. Once the tier list becomes defined and players become more knowledgeable in the match-up, G&W will settle into the lower tiers, just as he did in Brawl, and just as he did in Japan.

I'm not trying to be negative, I would love nothing more than more G&W to get better, but what I'm reading on here from some people is ludicrous. There's a fine line between wishful thinking and insanity. The first step to treating a problem is admitting there is one. Now repeat after me:

Mr. G&W is NOT good.
Lol
I'm at work, can't fully respond atm, but I'll say the following and elaborate later:
1. He wasn't viable in Brawl either (don't think you're arguing he was but it kind of feels like it's an inherent point that makes the rest of your post work)
2. He does better against the top tiers in this game than he did in Brawl.
 

ROBnWatch

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Mr. G&W is bad. Period. Anyone here who thinks he's anywhere near viable in real competitive play is either fooling themselves or doesn't actually understand high level competitive play. I've been using him since Brawl's release. And after trying and trying and trying, there is simply no way to use him effectively against anyone who has REAL matchup experience.

His smash game has been nerfed, horribly. He's lost the lingering hit box on f-smash, and the lasting hit box on dsmash has been reduced significantly. Both moves suffered significantly reduced knock back as well. Group those with the already highly punishable up smash, and G&W can now be easily punished on any of his smashes, god help you if you hit a shield. He had some saving grace with the invincibility frames he now has on up smash, but it hardly makes up for anything. Everyone is already learning to just walk away and punish after. If you're playing anyone who consistently dies by up-smash, THEY ARE NOT SKILLED PLAYERS. They are aggro-rushing fools. Arguing that up-smash is amazing is like arguing that warlock punch is amazing; of course it is, if they're dumb enough to walk into it.

Uptilt hits only directly above him, a limiting hit box that often leaves other moves as more practical options. Downtilt now has a cute little windbox which does little but occasionally catch your opponents off guard. Ftilt is probably his safest move period, and can provide kills at higher percentages, which I argue is the only character specific buff he received that proves useful.

Aerials got the shaft too. Increased landing lag on everything makes fair dangerous and dair very punishable, especially now that you can't control it's midair speed nearly as well or reliably as before. Uair has a reduced windbox, and SSB Air Dodge has made it nearly impossible to even land. Does have a nice little kill window, but you can easily miss it, causing the first hit of Uair to provide too much knock back for the second hit to land. Bair had its last poking hit removed, and is easily punished on shield. It is NOT a safe approach. You WILL be shieldgrabbed between hits. Nair has remained mainly the same visually, but contains much less priority.

Bucket is worthless against anyone who doesn't have an energy based projectile (or bombs now I guess, woohoo.) and even if they do have them, should be able to use them effectively if the player has any match-up experience at all. Judgement if anything received a nerf in that it is now truly random. I used to be able to risk my life throwing out that super punishable move knowing I wouldn't hit a 1 the next two times, now I don't know what to expect. (note: the multihit judge is very useful, but since we're apparently banning customs this doesn't help.) Up-B remains a safe recovery, and Chef tends to fly more practically, but hardly provides enough hitstun under 90 to do much more than throw a cheap shot out for a couple percent when the situation is optimal.

Throws remained the same save for dthrow, which sets up wonderfully on some of the cast, but can't be used on certain characters (a good Yoshi will Nair through your Nair.) G&W still continues to have one of the worst grab ranges in the game, however, so good luck getting close enough.

What people don't realize about G&W is that he will destroy characters "worse" than him harder than many characters above him can, but too many characters have too many moves that will guarantee a KO on G&W at 80% or higher. Certain matchups are literally unplayable. Once the tier list becomes defined and players become more knowledgeable in the match-up, G&W will settle into the lower tiers, just as he did in Brawl, and just as he did in Japan.

I'm not trying to be negative, I would love nothing more than more G&W to get better, but what I'm reading on here from some people is ludicrous. There's a fine line between wishful thinking and insanity. The first step to treating a problem is admitting there is one. Now repeat after me:

Mr. G&W is NOT good.
I have played with G&W in Brawl long before you posted this, and will continue playing G&W long after this post. You say he's nerfed, we just find new ways to play as him. It's still the same 2-D character we all know and love, is it not? So what if he's changed a bit? We can just enjoy the new G&W. In fact, I predict, that if used correctly, G&W will be in....

*Drum roll please*

Tier: Anywhere from 25-42.

Keep in mind I HAVEN'T PLAYED THE GAME YET. And I'm sure we all play G&W differently, so one of us is bound to find something useful and we are all either worse than or better than each other as G&W. And because I haven't played the game, I cannot truly go with anything that you guys say about G&W until I play as him.
 

WindozeNT

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I have played with G&W in Brawl long before you posted this, and will continue playing G&W long after this post. You say he's nerfed, we just find new ways to play as him. It's still the same 2-D character we all know and love, is it not? So what if he's changed a bit? We can just enjoy the new G&W. In fact, I predict, that if used correctly, G&W will be in....

*Drum roll please*

Tier: Anywhere from 25-42.

Keep in mind I HAVEN'T PLAYED THE GAME YET. And I'm sure we all play G&W differently, so one of us is bound to find something useful and we are all either worse than or better than each other as G&W. And because I haven't played the game, I cannot truly go with anything that you guys say about G&W until I play as him.
this doesn't even bring into account the wins I got using him in local matches, where most people I fought were very competent with their players. He likely has some wins in online matches as well. A For Glory match I played with him vs Wii Fit Trainer would've been among these, but severe lag (1000ms ping on my side, satellite internet provided by a 0/5 star ISP) caused my 3DS to either ignore my inputs or send them to the WFT's 3DS too late. It was a very close match though and had it not been for the severe lag and input ignores I was getting, I would've won.
 
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TheMiSP

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I've got to say, this character certainly isn't great. But he's not too bad.

Mind me, coming from a semi-serious player, but as I believe someone else mentioned, I do way better when I bait people into doing wrong things. Such as throwing out aerials out for no reason. Just try not to eat the end lag if you miss.

But on the flip side, I also agree that what I say won't help other playstyles.
 

Rakurai

Smash Ace
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Well, at least now that the game is out in Japan, the chance of new tech being discovered for him and other seemingly low tier characters is that much higher.
 

X3I

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G&W is actually good, and does well against "top tiers"... It annoys me a lot that persons who don't have the game/who don't play him/who don't have the level/who see only the nerf from Brawl (pick one) come here just to say "OMG HE'S BAD", because he is definitely not.
 

G-Guy

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hey guys, how effective is Chef in your opinion?
I havn't had the chance to try it on my best buddy/good players, but the average FG-guys tend to give me an opening for a dash/fair/grab rather often.

What's your opinion about that?
 

Rakurai

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I mostly use Chef as a safe edgeguarding option.

It's not that difficult for fast characters to simply dash under the projectiles and punish you if you try to use it on-stage. Slow and/or large characters can be harassed a lot more effectively by it.
 

VDZ

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His new one may be slower
You say this as if it's a minor issue. The ridiculous speed was why the attack was so great; that it was also an amazing finisher was extra. Whenever a non-shielding opponent is too close, down-smash! Even if he does manage to shield in time, it still works for spacing. But it just doesn't work anymore in SSB4, so the only thing left is a slow finisher (and G&W has plenty of slow finishers).

His air game is still good with great disjoints,
No it isn't. I've had situations where I managed to get a full hit in with an aerial, and THEN get punished by an opponent's attack because their hitstun was shorter than the time it takes for the move to finish. Game & Watch is simply that bad right now.

but what I'm trying to say is that he's not going to become any
better by whining or praying. We can (and should) acknowledge his faults
and maybe realize that winning with him may be harder than with some other characters.
But rather than be sad about the loss of things that made him good
in a past game, we need to look for new tools and strategies
he didn't have before. Don't turn away or discourage people
who try to make a character work.
You don't seem to understand that some characters are inherently unviable for competitive play. I have mained Mr. Game & Watch since Melee, and despite having played G&W far more in SSB4 I'm achieving far better results with Jigglypuff despite playing clearly worse with Jigglypuff. To win with G&W you need to be A LOT better than your opponent (or your opponent's character must be weak to G&W), and when playing against a good opponent it's just not feasible to play with a character like G&W.

The only hope we have of getting G&W to a tournament-viable level is for him to be buffed in a patch. No amount of skill is going to make him work as-is.

Keep in mind I HAVEN'T PLAYED THE GAME YET.
No offense, but I don't think your opinion means much when you haven't played the new G&W yourself. To really understand the extent to which G&W was nerfed, you need to play as him. All of his nerfs are minor on paper, but in practice the effect is huge.

I do way better when I bait people into doing wrong things. Such as throwing out aerials out for no reason.
Yes, Game & Watch still works against unskilled players. But you can't expect skilled players to throw out easily punishable attacks all the time. Having to rely on your opponent's incompetence is hardly a winning strategy.

Just try not to eat the end lag if you miss.
The issue with end lag is not that you get punished if you miss (because in that case you simply deserve it), but rather that you get punished if the opponent shields ANY of your attacks, or sometimes even when the attack properly connects! You can't pressure the opponent with attacks they must avoid because any attack you try that with will be punished. This leaves Mr. Game & Watch with a very passive playing style (wait for your opponent to initiate the attack and try to counter that), which it's very bad at (slow attacks, low priority, ****ty hitboxes, slow roll).

hey guys, how effective is Chef in your opinion?
I havn't had the chance to try it on my best buddy/good players, but the average FG-guys tend to give me an opening for a dash/fair/grab rather often.

What's your opinion about that?
Extremely effective, one of G&W's best moves now that everything else is nerfed. Obviously you shouldn't use it on fast characters standing idle, but sausage spam against opponents that aren't able to punish you for it (slow opponents/opponents in the air unable to reach you/etc) can rack up damage quite fast. It's especially annoying against opponents trying to recover vertically but have a slow up-B, so they have to re-do the up-B every single time they get hit by a sausage.

Also keep in mind that the pan itself has great horizontal knockback for spacing. Against slow opponents it can be used in a similar way to Brawl's Down-smash to get some distance. Against certain characters (and incompetent opponents) it can also be used to stop them from rushing you/using charge attacks towards you with proper timing.

Another use is to abuse G&W's amazing vertical recovery with it; if you have to recover horizontally but are plenty high up, you can just sausage spam off the edge if the enemy isn't chasing you, then recover from below. The sausage spam deals damage, frustrates the opponent (occasionally enough to surprise them with a sudden aerial back to the stage) and makes it hard to approach you. Again, results vary strongly per character you're playing against.
 

G-Guy

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Extremely effective, one of G&W's best moves now that everything else is nerfed. Obviously you shouldn't use it on fast characters standing idle, but sausage spam against opponents that aren't able to punish you for it (slow opponents/opponents in the air unable to reach you/etc) can rack up damage quite fast. It's especially annoying against opponents trying to recover vertically but have a slow up-B, so they have to re-do the up-B every single time they get hit by a sausage.

Also keep in mind that the pan itself has great horizontal knockback for spacing. Against slow opponents it can be used in a similar way to Brawl's Down-smash to get some distance. Against certain characters (and incompetent opponents) it can also be used to stop them from rushing you/using charge attacks towards you with proper timing.

Another use is to abuse G&W's amazing vertical recovery with it; if you have to recover horizontally but are plenty high up, you can just sausage spam off the edge if the enemy isn't chasing you, then recover from below. The sausage spam deals damage, frustrates the opponent (occasionally enough to surprise them with a sudden aerial back to the stage) and makes it hard to approach you. Again, results vary strongly per character you're playing against.
Thanks for the detailed response! It feels good to get such positive feedback on the way I play G&W from someone who mained him since Melee. Seems like i get a general understanding of the character. Thanks for that! :-)
 

X3I

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"Extremely effective, one of G&W's best moves now that everything else is nerfed"

- Jab is better.
- Ftilt is better.
- All aerials are better.
- Usmash is better, and generally all smashes are.
- Up B is better, Down B is also better in many match-ups.
- Even Dthrow is a better move.

But well, everything got nerfed, so it must be his new best move, because it got buffed... right ?
Typical thoughts on this thread. Boring bull****s.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
- All aerials are better.
- Usmash is better, and generally all smashes are.

But well, everything got nerfed, so it must be his new best move, because it got buffed... right ?
Typical thoughts on this thread. Boring bull****s.
Actually, his aerials are worse than they were in Brawl. Sure his f-tilt comes out fast and has less ending lag, but just about every other move was weakened in terms of damage and knockback. B-air was especially butchered. It literally deals half the damage it did before, and to top it off it has more landing lag, making it a somewhat unsafe move on the ground. However, it can still be used to gimp people off stage pretty well, so it's not useless. D-air also does less damage, but from what I've seen it's a LOT easier to spike your opponents with it if you use it right, so it's actually pretty good. N-air got a slight range nerf and doesn't connect hits as well anymore, but you could potentially down-throw into it if you're quick enough.

Then there's the smash attacks. F-Smash has more range, but there's a huge hitbox that makes up the 'stick' of his torch. The problem with this is that it doesn't do nearly as much knockback or damage as the actual 'flame' of the torch, so using this move can be difficult at times. Unless you really charge this move up, you're probably not going to kill someone until about 110-ish%. It also lost the lingering hitbox it had in the previous games which was great for keeping a distance from opponents. D-smash has a little bit of ending lag, but can kill most characters around 100% if they're hit with the hammer heads. U-smash has special armor while its being used which is pretty cool I guess. It generally lacks range though.

I hate to be a debbie-downer type of person, but if you compare his general power from Brawl to SSB4, he's not the 'glass cannon' that he used to be in previous games. G&W is by no means unusable, but a patch fixing him would be a dream come true at this rate.
 
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VDZ

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- Jab is better.
Possible. Jab is pretty good in SSB4, and it fulfills functions none of G&W's other moves can.

- Ftilt is better.
Agreed.

- All aerials are better.
Strongly disagree except for the B-air. F-air has become redundant because it's become weak, is slow and has lots of end lag; remove one of these and it would be good, but the combination is a disaster. It only does anything against newbies. D-air is still unique in G&W's repertoire but its low priority combined with massive endlag make it extremely punishable. U-air's hitbox sucks and the wind effect is not nearly as useful as it was in Brawl; people dodge it nowadays leaving you completely open. N-air has a terrible hitbox and low priority making it impossible to land outside of a combo against a good player.

- Usmash is better, and generally all smashes are.
Against newbies, yes. Against good players, they're all slow and weak with massive endlag meaning you get punished whenever you try them against a non-helpless opponent.

- Up B is better, Down B is also better in many match-ups.
I fully agree about the Up-B. Down-B is amazing against bad players, but it's not all that great against good players. It has a tiny bit of startup time (much more than previous iterations) which makes it impossible to catch anything not obviously coming at you slowly from a significant distance. After catching, it takes a while to put away the bucket, and any good player will punish you during that interval. You can no longer down-throw -> bucket for a guaranteed hit (yes, it's still a likely hit against newbies, but again, good players avoid it) and even if it hits, its KO potential is drastically reduced due to there generally being less damage in the bucket (due to it filling up faster).

Not to mention it's worthless in most matches.

- Even Dthrow is a better move.
No it isn't. G&W is a ****ty grabber, and the tiny bit of comboing you can do with down-throw is not amazing enough to make up for it.
 

VDZ

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I hate to be a debbie-downer type of person, but if you compare his general power from Brawl to SSB4, he's not the 'glass cannon' that he used to be in previous games.
I'd argue G&W wasn't even a glass cannon in Brawl. In SSBM, he was a glass cannon. In SSBB, he was just a cannon. In SSB4, he's just glass.
 

X3I

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"D-air is still unique in G&W's repertoire but its low priority"
?????????????????????????????????????????????????
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
I'd argue G&W wasn't even a glass cannon in Brawl. In SSBM, he was a glass cannon. In SSBB, he was just a cannon. In SSB4, he's just glass.
Yeah I guess you're right. The thing with G&W is that his smash attacks can still be good in SSB4.... if you're willing to charge them to their fullest power.

I miss the days when you could unleash an uncharged f-smash when your opponent was near 80% and not have to worry if they would survive. I predict that most, if not all of G&W's kills will come from aerial gimps now.
 

meleebrawler

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"No it isn't. I've had situations where I managed to get a full hit in with an aerial, and THEN get punished by an opponent's attack because their hitstun was shorter than the time it takes for the move to finish. Game & Watch is simply that bad right now."

Were you still moving towards them after you hit?



"You don't seem to understand that some characters are inherently unviable for competitive play. I have mained Mr. Game & Watch since Melee, and despite having played G&W far more in SSB4 I'm achieving far better results with Jigglypuff despite playing clearly worse with Jigglypuff. To win with G&W you need to be A LOT better than your opponent (or your opponent's character must be weak to G&W), and when playing against a good opponent it's just not feasible to play with a character like G&W.

The only hope we have of getting G&W to a tournament-viable level is for him to be buffed in a patch. No amount of skill is going to make him work as-is."

And that attitude is why he's never going to get a buff at this rate.
Developers (should) know that they can't just make changes
willy-nilly to characters purely based on tourney results.

1.0.3 to 1.0.4 I feel was basically a case similar
to Melee NTSC vs. Melee PAL: they released an earlier
build of the game to meet deadlines. Maybe they did listen
to some player's opinions, but I feel they were mostly
focusing on what THEY felt was right in terms of balance.

Now, Smash is not a game that gets patched on a regular
basis like League Of Legends (at least, there's no precedent), so for something to be changed,
there needs to be a REALLY serious issue or A LOT of complaints.
Who do people talk about the most? Characters who appear at tournaments.
Which characters are these, given the mindset of the community that
wants wins the most? The "top tier" characters.

If no one plays a particular character at tournaments, nobody
will notice anything good or bad about him or her and thus
not say anything. With little feedback to go on, how are the developers
to make relevant changes to characters?

I'm sorry, but if you want a character to succeed, you need
to buckle down, practice, and show the world how good or bad
your character is when a lot of time and effort has been put into it.
If you really like a given character, don't be discouraged by losing
in the long run.
 
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ROBnWatch

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You say this as if it's a minor issue. The ridiculous speed was why the attack was so great; that it was also an amazing finisher was extra. Whenever a non-shielding opponent is too close, down-smash! Even if he does manage to shield in time, it still works for spacing. But it just doesn't work anymore in SSB4, so the only thing left is a slow finisher (and G&W has plenty of slow finishers).



No it isn't. I've had situations where I managed to get a full hit in with an aerial, and THEN get punished by an opponent's attack because their hitstun was shorter than the time it takes for the move to finish. Game & Watch is simply that bad right now.



You don't seem to understand that some characters are inherently unviable for competitive play. I have mained Mr. Game & Watch since Melee, and despite having played G&W far more in SSB4 I'm achieving far better results with Jigglypuff despite playing clearly worse with Jigglypuff. To win with G&W you need to be A LOT better than your opponent (or your opponent's character must be weak to G&W), and when playing against a good opponent it's just not feasible to play with a character like G&W.

The only hope we have of getting G&W to a tournament-viable level is for him to be buffed in a patch. No amount of skill is going to make him work as-is.



No offense, but I don't think your opinion means much when you haven't played the new G&W yourself. To really understand the extent to which G&W was nerfed, you need to play as him. All of his nerfs are minor on paper, but in practice the effect is huge.



Yes, Game & Watch still works against unskilled players. But you can't expect skilled players to throw out easily punishable attacks all the time. Having to rely on your opponent's incompetence is hardly a winning strategy.



The issue with end lag is not that you get punished if you miss (because in that case you simply deserve it), but rather that you get punished if the opponent shields ANY of your attacks, or sometimes even when the attack properly connects! You can't pressure the opponent with attacks they must avoid because any attack you try that with will be punished. This leaves Mr. Game & Watch with a very passive playing style (wait for your opponent to initiate the attack and try to counter that), which it's very bad at (slow attacks, low priority, ****ty hitboxes, slow roll).



Extremely effective, one of G&W's best moves now that everything else is nerfed. Obviously you shouldn't use it on fast characters standing idle, but sausage spam against opponents that aren't able to punish you for it (slow opponents/opponents in the air unable to reach you/etc) can rack up damage quite fast. It's especially annoying against opponents trying to recover vertically but have a slow up-B, so they have to re-do the up-B every single time they get hit by a sausage.

Also keep in mind that the pan itself has great horizontal knockback for spacing. Against slow opponents it can be used in a similar way to Brawl's Down-smash to get some distance. Against certain characters (and incompetent opponents) it can also be used to stop them from rushing you/using charge attacks towards you with proper timing.

Another use is to abuse G&W's amazing vertical recovery with it; if you have to recover horizontally but are plenty high up, you can just sausage spam off the edge if the enemy isn't chasing you, then recover from below. The sausage spam deals damage, frustrates the opponent (occasionally enough to surprise them with a sudden aerial back to the stage) and makes it hard to approach you. Again, results vary strongly per character you're playing against.
(Since I dunno how to shorten a quote, I guess I gotta quote all this, by the way, I'd appreciate if someone would tell me how to resolve this issue)

Thanks for the feedback. I do admit that not having played the new G&W yet does kind of make my opinion less important, but because I haven't played with him yet, I can't yet say that what you guys are saying is 100% truth either. Besides, I think the competitive players will look at this topic differently than the casual players, and I fall into the casual players category. Now I'm not sure which of you are competitive and which are casual, but I would think they also play G&W somewhat differently. That said, those of you who have the game could be having different opinions on the topic because you fall on separate sides of this boundary.
 

WindozeNT

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Nintendo hates Mr. Game & Watch (many senseless nerfs)
Nintendo hates Ice Climbers (cut and put in lowest priority)
Nintendo hates everyone (no R.O.B. stage; apparent Metroid neglect)
But pile on the Kid Icarus!

Ugh...
 
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Kofu

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His aerials are all decent. NAir still covers around him well and does significant damage, although it's not quite as safe as Brawl's. FAir is a good damage racking and gimping move, BAir can also gimp (mainly through stage spikes) and seems to still poke shields decently if fastfalled (it does have the landing hit still) but I'm not sure if that's because people are trying to shieldgrab it when I land. UAir still does its job well at safe aerial juggling and, if you can that danged second hit, it's a good kill move (occasionally I've landed UAir after DThrow at kill percents but it's far from guaranteed). DAir is probably his worst aerial now, but the meteor is slightly easier to land (don't discount it right at the edge of the stage) and it still is a good option to gimp or to challenge airborne opponents (I think @Neb mentioned that). I'm a little peeved that none of his aerials auto cancel from a low jump, it's one of my main gripes about his character design aside from his weight (but that makes sense so I'm not too upset about it).

FAir being unsafe on hit (which, by the way, I've only noticed as an inherent problem of the weak hit) is far from a unique attribute to Game & Watch. A LOT of characters seem to have moves that are inherently unsafe at lower percents.

I'm amused that people are bringing up his good moves but seem to be neglecting to mention his dash attack. Its startup is the same as Brawl but it moves him forward significantly more. The strong hit does 10% fresh and can string into itself or other moves at low to mid percents (I don't think dash attack strings are confirmed on anyone at other percent, I could be wrong though). Jab is much better than previous iterations because of the finishing hit and you can usually get at least 7%, often closer to 10%, if you land jab. A lot of times it can be escaped but the window for that is small and missable if the opponent preoccupied with executing another strategy.

I think the biggest problem with him is his kill moves. It's not so much that they're inherently weak, I think; it's that they're weak for how long he survives. They feel like they've been balanced for the rage mechanic which doesn't work well when our character is one of the lightest in the game and his most consistent kill moves (not counting 9s or Oil Panic) are high commitment. Most of the other light characters have a really strong move that they can easily work into their game or they just have stronger smashes. USmash's invincibility is hilarious but that only goes so far when the hitbox is so small.

One more move-related note: I think our new DTilt has some untapped potential. It can really sceww with recoveries, especially horizontal ones, or it can be use to start juggles, which Game & Watch is good at.

I don't think he's high tier or anything (he's probably in the lower half of the cast) but the fact is that balance in this game is much closer than in prior Smash iterations and I don't think Game & Watch was left behind.
 
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meleebrawler

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I think the biggest problem with him is his kill moves. It's not so much that they're inherently weak, I think; it's that they're weak for how long he survives. They feel like they've been balanced for the rage mechanic which doesn't work well when our character is the lightest in the game and his most consistent kill moves (not counting 9s or Oil Panic) are high commitment. Most of the other light characters have a really strong move that they can easily work into their game or they just have stronger smashes. USmash's invincibility is hilarious but that only goes so far when the hitbox is so small.

One more move-related note: I this k our new DTilt has some untapped potential. It can really sceww with recoveries, especially horizontal ones, or it can be use to start juggles, which Game & Watch is good at.

I don't think he's high tier or anything (he's probably in the lower half of the cast) but the fact is that balance in this game is much closer than in prior Smash iterations and I don't think Game & Watch was left behind.
The game says he's the second lightest, behind Jigglypuff.
 

ROBnWatch

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Nintendo hates Mr. Game & Watch (many senseless nerfs)
Nintendo hates Ice Climbers (cut and put in lowest priority)
Nintendo hates everyone (no R.O.B. stage; apparent Metroid neglect)
But pile on the Kid Icarus!

Ugh...
Thanks for hatin' on my mains, Nintendo...thanks.

R.O.B. still doesn't have a Gyromite/Stack-Up themed home stage, G&W (according to you guys) is the worst he's ever been, and ICies are gone due to 3DS limitations. Curse that 3DS version...Smash is much better when you can actually see the characters...and when it's able to handle a lot of memory...
 

WindozeNT

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Thanks for hatin' on my mains, Nintendo...thanks.

R.O.B. still doesn't have a Gyromite/Stack-Up themed home stage, G&W (according to you guys) is the worst he's ever been, and ICies are gone due to 3DS limitations. Curse that 3DS version...Smash is much better when you can actually see the characters...and when it's able to handle a lot of memory...
It still baffles me that Sakurai even entertained the idea of adding Dark Pit, who is nothing more than Pit with slightly different textures and a different FS, to the roster. And this is the exact same guy who, 15 years ago, refused to add King Dedede to Melee because he didn't want the game to appear biased and saturated with Kirby stuff (which really wouldn't have been the case if D3 got in) but now smothers it with so much of KI:U that it might as well be named "Kid Icarus Fighters for Wii U/3DS".
 
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meleebrawler

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It still baffles me that Sakurai even entertained the idea of adding Dark Pit, who is nothing more than Pit with slightly different textures and a different FS, to the roster. And this is the exact same guy who, 15 years ago, refused to add King Dedede to Melee because he didn't want the game to appear biased and saturated with Kirby stuff (which really wouldn't have been the case if D3 got in) but now smothers it with so much of KI:U that it might as well be named "Kid Icarus Fighters for Wii U/3DS".
Zomg, three characterz in one franchize is too many.

And why are you bringing this up here?
There's a whole thread in Dark Pit's forum dedicated
for hate towards him.

There is no franchise that is "undeserving" of
representation. Complain about lack of things is
natural, but complaining about more things is silly.

Just know that for every character you don't like, someone
out there is ecstatic about their inclusion.
 

ROBnWatch

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It still baffles me that Sakurai even entertained the idea of adding Dark Pit, who is nothing more than Pit with slightly different textures and a different FS, to the roster. And this is the exact same guy who, 15 years ago, refused to add King Dedede to Melee because he didn't want the game to appear biased and saturated with Kirby stuff (which really wouldn't have been the case if D3 got in) but now smothers it with so much of KI:U that it might as well be named "Kid Icarus Fighters for Wii U/3DS".
Lol. But ya, Nintendo has hurt my Retro Trio, all three of em.

Conclusion: Nintendo hates me. -__-

Oh well. Still upset I haven't gotten ANY hands-on time with SSB4 Wii U...but Christmas is coming, thank goodness. All I need now is a few more bucks for the system itself...then I'll be able to see what new G&W is really THAT bad, or if he's just a bit different this time around.
 

meleebrawler

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Lol. But ya, Nintendo has hurt my Retro Trio, all three of em.

Conclusion: Nintendo hates me. -__-

Oh well. Still upset I haven't gotten ANY hands-on time with SSB4 Wii U...but Christmas is coming, thank goodness. All I need now is a few more bucks for the system itself...then I'll be able to see what new G&W is really THAT bad, or if he's just a bit different this time around.
I think a general trend involving changes from Brawl to 4
was toning down the speed of moves that had high power for
how fast they were. Examples being Falco's Dair, as well as both Meta Knight's,
Pikachu's and G&W's Dsmashes.

They probably wanted to make all moves with power
have risk.
 

WindozeNT

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Here's a video courtesy of the Dark Pit forums that they apparently don't want us seeing (even though most of us already know Chef is a great edgeguarder). I've done something similar to Pit on Balloon Fight Ω and also have a replay of it. I just don't know how to get replays exported without having to record them with a camera.

EDIT: this isn't my video
 
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X3I

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No wonder why you think G&W is a bad character if you spam slow moves and smashes, while not using his good aerial approaches.

No offense
 
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_hunt

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I don't even really care if GDubs is good or not anymore. It annoyed me in the first two weeks of the game, but now I just don't care. I still use him regardless and if I win a match it's awesome and if I lose it's fine. I play for those awesome moments where you land a clutch 9, or do an awesome gimp. He's just so fun to use, win or lose.
 
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JustKindaBoredUKno

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No wonder why you think G&W is a bad character if you spam slow moves and smashes, while not using his good aerial approaches.

No offense
None taken. You just proved you've never actually played someone who has real experience against a G&W, as I was assuming. You're insane if you think G&Ws aerials are viable against Greninja. I now have trouble taking anything you say seriously.

No offense.
 

Mario & Sonic Guy

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I had some fun with Mr. Game & Watch's Judge special by making some snapshots of him judging the females.










And for the final contestant...




Mr. Game & Watch made the wrong move by giving Zero Suit Samus a 1.
 

ROBnWatch

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I don't even really care if GDubs is good or not anymore. It annoyed me in the first two weeks of the game, but now I just don't care. I still use him regardless and if I win a match it's awesome and if I lose it's fine. I play for those awesome moments where you land a clutch 9, or do an awesome gimp. He's just so fun to use, win or lose.
Heard that. That's practically the reason I started using him in the first place.

I had some fun with Mr. Game & Watch's Judge special by making some snapshots of him judging the females.










And for the final contestant...




Mr. Game & Watch made the wrong move by giving Zero Suit Samus a 1.
Lol.
 

X3I

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None taken. You just proved you've never actually played someone who has real experience against a G&W, as I was assuming. You're insane if you think G&Ws aerials are viable against Greninja. I now have trouble taking anything you say seriously.

No offense.
Guess it's safer to use nothing else but smashes.

PS: People who play against me do have a real experience against G&W, because they play against me who play G&W. Logic.
And, by the way, they are not random players.
 
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