Social Mr. Game & Watch Social - The Flat Zone

[SFA Smiley]

If anything, is it still possible to stop vertical movement with the Bucket

Yeah, but it can't be used to bucket brake because you can no longer cancel hitstun with an aerial

 

[Sup3rn00b]

Side taunt: "Yo that was a cool thing I just did."
Up taunt: "You just got destroyed."
Down taunt: I don't use this much.

 

[X3I]

Oh - my - god...
Now it's available on the Wii U, I can test things decently...

I can't believe you all said G&W got nerfed, while he now has probably the best move of the game: the Up Smash.
This move is ******** and out-priorities everything... I mean, EVERYTHING !
Thanks to this stupid buff, G&W is definitely not a low tier.

Edit: Well, everything excepts Bowser's Down B.
But that's a lot.

 

[WindozeNT]

Oh - my - god...
Now it's available on the Wii U, I can test things decently...

I can't believe you all said G&W got nerfed, while he now has probably the best move of the game: the Up Smash.
This move is ******** and out-priorities everything... I mean, EVERYTHING !
Thanks to this stupid buff, G&W is definitely not a low tier.

umadbro?

Mr. Game & Watch for God tier!

 

[X3I]

I'm not mad since it's my main.
I love it, actually.
I'm ****in excited about that.

 

[meleebrawler]

Oh - my - god...
Now it's available on the Wii U, I can test things decently...

I can't believe you all said G&W got nerfed, while he now has probably the best move of the game: the Up Smash.
This move is ******** and out-priorities everything... I mean, EVERYTHING !
Thanks to this stupid buff, G&W is definitely not a low tier.

Edit: Well, everything excepts Bowser's Down B.
But that's a lot.

He's not the only one with a move like this.

Palutena's dash attack and Bair both have similar
properties of stopping nearly anything they come in contact with.
All three of these attacks (including G&W's up smash) fittingly involve
protective gear.

I christen the property of these moves as "Absolute Priority".

 

[X3I]

G&W's Up Smash is fast, usable easily, is a kill move, nice range, etc...
It's definitely stupid.

 

[meleebrawler]

G&W's Up Smash is fast, usable easily, is a kill move, nice range, etc...
It's definitely stupid.

Um, I don't consider it's range to be anything to write home
about. You're not going to beat Link's Dair in reach, and you
certainly aren't going to hit anyone on the ground
unless they're standing right on top of you.

Disjointed attacks are it's weakness.

Edit: OK, so it does have more range than the animation
appears.

 

[X3I]

"You're not going to beat Link's Dair in reach"

You do, I did it many times!!! Every disjoincted attacks are also ****ed.
Swords, or even G&W own keys...

It's way more than upper invincibility, it also works on every Sonic's spindash (on the side), for example.
Try it, really, it's stupid, I'm spamming that move since this morning, it works in every situations.

Though, on Toon Link Dair, it just pushback both character without dealing damages.
And Bowser's Down B is the only move that beats it.

I tried with every move in the training mode.

 

[SFA Smiley]

@Supernoob, I hate the bell taunts, but i recognize that i'm the minority

I find having 2 bells a waste, and my favorite in Brawl was down taunt because it was super fast

@x3l Usmash is definitely not that good. it's definitely nerfed as well. I would even argue to say that move isnt very good at all. If there's anything worth gushing about it's the new Dash Attack

now THAT is a buff.

Usmash has a tiny hitbox and disproportionate knockback to how difficult it is to land.... unless the person you're fighting likes to jump on your head for some reason. It only hits just above his head so the ONLY time you can ever land it is in these situations.

And apparently sonic's spindash (good to know I have to try this)

but yeah i dunno what you're talking about man personally lol

I don't know if GW will end up being low tier or not, but if he isn't it won't be this move that's the reason.

Anyway though, Guys I got some GW matches recorded since that's kinda rare right now, I'll let you guys know when it's uploaded (i'll try to do it tomorrow but no promises as i'm kinda busy)

Also working on a Bucket Mechanics video still, and I got to incorporate some of the bucket tricks in the matches which is really cool and shows me they're actually viable stuff =)

 

[ROBnWatch]

@Supernoob, I hate the bell taunts, but i recognize that i'm the minority

I find having 2 bells a waste, and my favorite in Brawl was down taunt because it was super fast

@x3l Usmash is definitely not that good. it's definitely nerfed as well. I would even argue to say that move isnt very good at all. If there's anything worth gushing about it's the new Dash Attack

now THAT is a buff.

Usmash has a tiny hitbox and disproportionate knockback to how difficult it is to land.... unless the person you're fighting likes to jump on your head for some reason. It only hits just above his head so the ONLY time you can ever land it is in these situations.

And apparently sonic's spindash (good to know I have to try this)

but yeah i dunno what you're talking about man personally lol

I don't know if GW will end up being low tier or not, but if he isn't it won't be this move that's the reason.

Anyway though, Guys I got some GW matches recorded since that's kinda rare right now, I'll let you guys know when it's uploaded (i'll try to do it tomorrow but no promises as i'm kinda busy)

Also working on a Bucket Mechanics video still, and I got to incorporate some of the bucket tricks in the matches which is really cool and shows me they're actually viable stuff =)

Ya, what happened to his down taunt? I liked his Brawl one better than this stupid sighing animation...

 

[X3I]

=) > It beats every air approaches (Marth Fair, Mario Nair... All that kind of things), even move like ground Falcon/Ganon kick or Sonic spindashes, tilts and smashes in CQC... Really, you underestimate this move. It's not difficult to land at all, usable in reflex or with some mindgame... Trust me, it's a stupid buff.

 

[meleebrawler]

=) > It beats every air approaches (Marth Fair, Mario Nair... All that kind of things), even move like ground Falcon/Ganon kick or Sonic spindashes, tilts and smashes in CQC... Really, you underestimate this move. It's not difficult to land at all, usable in reflex or with some mindgame... Trust me, it's a stupid buff.

Because, you know, it's so easy to time it against everything
coming at you...

Look, we're just saying his gameplan doesn't revolve around Up smash, OK?
You can't just stand your ground and take all hits headed your way,
because mistakes are costly with him. As the second lightest character
in the game, he dies much earlier than other characters and so
cannot afford to be reckless with any of his moves.

 

[X3I]

You then play him wrong.

 

[meleebrawler]

You then play him wrong.

You just make it sound too good to be true.
Everything has drawbacks, and in the case of Up Smash
it's start-up lag and, contrary to what you believe, below average range.
Compare it to Mario's. To Ike's. To Dedede's. Does it have better range
than these moves?

If you use it as much as you say, you'll likely end up
punished for it sooner or later.

 

[WindozeNT]

Ya, what happened to his down taunt? I liked his Brawl one better than this stupid sighing animation...

The way his hands were positioned during the jump made it look like he was flipping the bird to his opponents so they changed it to sighing.

This quote from GameFAQs embodies the taunt change perfectly: "In six years, [it] goes from passive-aggressive to "I'm tired of this crap"..."

 

[ROBnWatch]

The way his hands were positioned during the jump made it look like he was flipping the bird to his opponents so they changed it to sighing.

This quote from GameFAQs embodies the taunt change perfectly: "In six years, [it] goes from passive-aggressive to "I'm tired of this crap"..."

Lol, now that you mention it, it does look that way. The coulda just rounded his hands to solve the problem, but, eh, I guess I won't be using his down taunt anymore. But that quote is right on. I mean, G&W is still the oldest character in Smash, right? And he has been here since Melee, I imagine he's a bit sick of taking on the likes of Mario, DK, Link etc., and always getting the same result, beating them.

 

[SFA Smiley]

=) > It beats every air approaches (Marth Fair, Mario Nair... All that kind of things), even move like ground Falcon/Ganon kick or Sonic spindashes, tilts and smashes in CQC... Really, you underestimate this move. It's not difficult to land at all, usable in reflex or with some mindgame... Trust me, it's a stupid buff.

I'm staying open minded but you'll just have to show me in the upcoming months etc. I'm gonna look into using it to stuff certain grounded approaches, if it's as good as you say it is, I may need to put more faith in it. I've stuffed some stuff but mostly when people try to land on me with dumb options. I gotta try it on the grounf, if I can power through Wario's bike that'd be really useful.

in less positive news, My Great Great Grandmother passed away today. I haven't had anybody i was particularly close with pass yet so this is new for me... It really is rough on my holiday plans because depending on how this goes I'll have to choose between going down to Florida now, or going during the holidays. She lived a long life though and recently fell and broke her hip so it was bound to happen soon. She was 94. It's amazing people live that long (and longer)

 

[G-Guy]

Hey Game&Guys!

I am really enjoying the black dude lately (I always had a soft spot for G&W in general, owning an original Chef and whatnot) and I havn't seen anyone pointing this out:

If your enemy is recovering from below, you can score an easy kill by falling off the ledge and UpB them when they are close to the ledge. The attack will cause the opponent to bounce against the ledge and ricochet downwards.

I only tried this with lv 9 bots so far, but it's working fine there.

 

[ROBnWatch]

I'm staying open minded but you'll just have to show me in the upcoming months etc. I'm gonna look into using it to stuff certain grounded approaches, if it's as good as you say it is, I may need to put more faith in it. I've stuffed some stuff but mostly when people try to land on me with dumb options. I gotta try it on the grounf, if I can power through Wario's bike that'd be really useful.

in less positive news, My Great Great Grandmother passed away today. I haven't had anybody i was particularly close with pass yet so this is new for me... It really is rough on my holiday plans because depending on how this goes I'll have to choose between going down to Florida now, or going during the holidays. She lived a long life though and recently fell and broke her hip so it was bound to happen soon. She was 94. It's amazing people live that long (and longer)

So sorry for your loss. Hope all is well.

Hey Game&Guys!

I am really enjoying the black dude lately (I always had a soft spot for G&W in general, owning an original Chef and whatnot) and I havn't seen anyone pointing this out:

If your enemy is recovering from below, you can score an easy kill by falling off the ledge and UpB them when they are close to the ledge. The attack will cause the opponent to bounce against the ledge and ricochet downwards.

I only tried this with lv 9 bots so far, but it's working fine there.

I think this could be done in Brawl too. Really comes in handy if you know when to use it.

 

[VDZ]

I only tried this with lv 9 bots so far, but it's working fine there.

This is never a good argument. With the AI, you can wait for the enemy to approach and kill them with your F-smash, but that doesn't make SSB4 G&W's F-smash not terrible. (Any actual player will easily dodge it and punish you while you slowly wait for the move to end.)

If your enemy is recovering from below, you can score an easy kill by falling off the ledge and UpB them when they are close to the ledge. The attack will cause the opponent to bounce against the ledge and ricochet downwards.

Yeah, it's pretty common knowledge and can also be done with other character's recovery moves that have knockback towards the stage (such as Marth's recovery). Real players are aware of this, though (and if they're not, it takes a single up-B for them to find out) and generally won't let you get under them while they're below the edge of the stage. Still, it is occasionally useful when your opponent isn't paying attention while edge-guarding.

 

[X3I]

I, at least, convinced my friends that the Usmash is broken (by playing with them).
And they were among the best of my country in Brawl or Melee.

 

[psientist]

Hi guys. I signed up to these forums specifically to vent my frustration with the fact that Game N Watch has been so heavily nerfed in this new Smash... but I also have some questions for the experts.

Game n Watch was not just my main in Brawl, he ended up becoming the only character I ever played. For me, he was simply too much fun not to choose. I still like his moves and my playstyle is still largely intact, but these nerfs to his A button attacks have seriously downgraded his ability to compete. The biggest nerf appears to be to his aerial razor(?) thing(side A), a 5pt decrease from what it was in Brawl. The rest of the nerfs are smaller increments but the effects sure are noticeable. He just feels ridiculously weak now and I struggle to get KO's in situations where in Brawl it'd have been no problem.

I'm wondering if there is some new strategy with him that Nintendo wants us to use? Has anything of his been buffed? Does Nintendo do regular balance patches, meaning could he receive a buff eventually? And lastly, has anyone noticed strangeness with his Random # Hammer? I've had some strange things occur that I don't ever remember happening in Brawl and I don't know if it's a bug or something else I'm missing. In one case, I hit a Toon Link with a #9, it made the shrieking sound indicating it connected, but nothing happened. Link was not shielding or dodging or anything of that sort, it just hit him and nothing happened. In another instance, I connected a #9 on someone, heard the shriek, but I got KO'd, not the guy I hit.

Sorry if this was a worthless post full of dumb questions. On the bright side, I have an adapter arriving today so I can finally play with my beloved Wavebird. Peace.

 

[TheMiSP]

Hi guys. I signed up to these forums specifically to vent my frustration with the fact that Game N Watch has been so heavily nerfed in this new Smash... but I also have some questions for the experts.

Game n Watch was not just my main in Brawl, he ended up becoming the only character I ever played. For me, he was simply too much fun not to choose. I still like his moves and my playstyle is still largely intact, but these nerfs to his A button attacks have seriously downgraded his ability to compete. The biggest nerf appears to be to his aerial razor(?) thing(side A), a 5pt decrease from what it was in Brawl. The rest of the nerfs are smaller increments but the effects sure are noticeable. He just feels ridiculously weak now and I struggle to get KO's in situations where in Brawl it'd have been no problem.

I'm wondering if there is some new strategy with him that Nintendo wants us to use? Has anything of his been buffed? Does Nintendo do regular balance patches, meaning could he receive a buff eventually? And lastly, has anyone noticed strangeness with his Random # Hammer? I've had some strange things occur that I don't ever remember happening in Brawl and I don't know if it's a bug or something else I'm missing. In one case, I hit a Toon Link with a #9, it made the shrieking sound indicating it connected, but nothing happened. Link was not shielding or dodging or anything of that sort, it just hit him and nothing happened. In another instance, I connected a #9 on someone, heard the shriek, but I got KO'd, not the guy I hit.

Sorry if this was a worthless post full of dumb questions. On the bright side, I have an adapter arriving today so I can finally play with my beloved Wavebird. Peace.

Hey! I too, am new. I may not be an expert, but I know enough of G&W in this game. I've been watching this whole character being discussed, and I also understand that it's frustrating to play a character that shouldn't have gotten nerfed too much. I think the general strategy right now is to be defensive and punish mistakes or moves with significant end lag. It seems that his dash attack and ftilt (chair) both come out significantly faster, which is a buff. The usmash (diver's helmet) causes G&W to be invincible on his helmet only, and I think it only happens when he's charging it. Don't rely on that armor too much, though it has saved me from hits quite a bit of times. However, I do agree with the fact that G&W indeed struggles to KO.

Regarding the hammer, it is indeed random. I haven't encountered any of the strange situations regarding you getting a 9, but I'm sorry to hear that.

Anyways, it just sucks to have to play on the defensive to win the match. Honestly, it's boring and I would rather have an honorable offense-offense 1v1 with the occasional shields and grabs. I think that if G&W would be viable in being offensive, he would be in need of buffs, such as reverting most of his moves to Brawl-status. But I think you could discuss that on the other thread in this place.

But along with the most of us posting in this thread, I'm not giving up on G&W.

 

[BassX]

Hi guys. I signed up to these forums specifically to vent my frustration with the fact that Game N Watch has been so heavily nerfed in this new Smash... but I also have some questions for the experts.

Game n Watch was not just my main in Brawl, he ended up becoming the only character I ever played. For me, he was simply too much fun not to choose. I still like his moves and my playstyle is still largely intact, but these nerfs to his A button attacks have seriously downgraded his ability to compete. The biggest nerf appears to be to his aerial razor(?) thing(side A), a 5pt decrease from what it was in Brawl. The rest of the nerfs are smaller increments but the effects sure are noticeable. He just feels ridiculously weak now and I struggle to get KO's in situations where in Brawl it'd have been no problem.

I'm wondering if there is some new strategy with him that Nintendo wants us to use? Has anything of his been buffed? Does Nintendo do regular balance patches, meaning could he receive a buff eventually? And lastly, has anyone noticed strangeness with his Random # Hammer? I've had some strange things occur that I don't ever remember happening in Brawl and I don't know if it's a bug or something else I'm missing. In one case, I hit a Toon Link with a #9, it made the shrieking sound indicating it connected, but nothing happened. Link was not shielding or dodging or anything of that sort, it just hit him and nothing happened. In another instance, I connected a #9 on someone, heard the shriek, but I got KO'd, not the guy I hit.

Sorry if this was a worthless post full of dumb questions. On the bright side, I have an adapter arriving today so I can finally play with my beloved Wavebird. Peace.

Obviously he was nerfed pretty hard from brawl to smash 4. Considering there has been 4 balance patches and G&W still wasnt buffed is a good indicator that we won't be getting any help from nintendo. I hope im wrong but you can take G&W and easily beat casual players. At the top of the competitive scene is where G&w falls flat. If nintendo buffs him, he could be too op for novice skill level battles. This is my hypothesis as to why he hasnt been nor will be buffed

 

[X3I]

"on his helmet only"
> propaganda, it's full invincible

"and I think it only happens when he's charging it"
> false too


And he is definitely viable in offense.
Geez, the more I read you, the more I start to believe we don't play the same game.

 

[TheMiSP]

"on his helmet only"
> propaganda, it's full invincible

"and I think it only happens when he's charging it"
> false too

Okay then, just know I'm not an expert.

Full invincibility? I kinda don't believe that.
Only when charging? That's my thought, but it should be tested.

 

[X3I]

No, it's NOT only when charging.
And IT IS full invincibility, since it beats spindashes, Ftilt, Fmash or every character and that kind of things.
That move is GODLIKE, I don't understand why no one seem to notice it...

Timing is hard to get, though. But I focussed on that the first second I got the game, and trust me: this move is stupid.
Try with Little Mac Ftilt or Bowser Fsmash, for example. It works well with these two.

 

[TheMiSP]

No, it's NOT only when charging.
And IT IS full invincibility, since it beats spindashes, Ftilt, Fmash or every character and that kind of things.
That move is GODLIKE, I don't understand why no one seem to notice it...

Timing is hard to get, though. But I focussed on that the first second I got the game, and trust me: this move is stupid.
Try with Little Mac Ftilt or Bowser Fsmash, for example. It works well with these two.

Alrighty. I have my doubts, I think I've gotten hit out of it.

But I'll trust you. The next time I get on For Fun, I'll try it out since the aforementioned characters are pretty common there.

 

[X3I]

Well as I said, the timing is hard to get (except for things like Sheik/Greninja/etc... ADA). Try in training before, or with a friend.

 

[meleebrawler]

Hey! I too, am new. I may not be an expert, but I know enough of G&W in this game. I've been watching this whole character being discussed, and I also understand that it's frustrating to play a character that shouldn't have gotten nerfed too much. I think the general strategy right now is to be defensive and punish mistakes or moves with significant end lag. It seems that his dash attack and ftilt (chair) both come out significantly faster, which is a buff. The usmash (diver's helmet) causes G&W to be invincible on his helmet only, and I think it only happens when he's charging it. Don't rely on that armor too much, though it has saved me from hits quite a bit of times. However, I do agree with the fact that G&W indeed struggles to KO.

Regarding the hammer, it is indeed random. I haven't encountered any of the strange situations regarding you getting a 9, but I'm sorry to hear that.

Anyways, it just sucks to have to play on the defensive to win the match. Honestly, it's boring and I would rather have an honorable offense-offense 1v1 with the occasional shields and grabs. I think that if G&W would be viable in being offensive, he would be in need of buffs, such as reverting most of his moves to Brawl-status. But I think you could discuss that on the other thread in this place.

But along with the most of us posting in this thread, I'm not giving up on G&W.

For me it feels like the absolute priority on Up Smash happens
right when you release it, and only during its active frames (when it can deal damage).

 

[WindozeNT]

Won some more local matches with G&W today. This time it was Robin, Duck Hunt, Ike, Ness (easily with up+B gimps), Link, Toon Link and Ludwig who lost to me. It really helps when people don't know how to deal with Mr. Game & Watch and are completely unaware that Oil Panic can now absorb practically everything thrown at it.

Regarding the hammer, it is indeed random. I haven't encountered any of the strange situations regarding you getting a 9, but I'm sorry to hear that.

Yeah, it actually uses a pure RNG this time instead of RNGs affected by "if-previous-2-numbers-were-used-already" rules. I've gotten multiple 9s and other numbers before.

In one case, I hit a Toon Link with a #9, it made the shrieking sound indicating it connected, but nothing happened. Link was not shielding or dodging or anything of that sort, it just hit him and nothing happened. In another instance, I connected a #9 on someone, heard the shriek, but I got KO'd, not the guy I hit.

The character you were hitting countered your Judge, allowing them to use it against you. As for TL, it's likely the shield he carries blocked it from connecting or he was under some kind of invincibility. Also, his side aerial is a box/package from Mario Bros.

The best strategy is to confuse your opponents as much as possible. With Oil Panic being able to absorb almost everything now, this can be rather easy (which think is his biggest buff but is one that's hardly talked about).

 

[ROBnWatch]

Won some more local matches with G&W today. This time it was Robin, Duck Hunt, Ike, Ness (easily with up+B gimps), Link, Toon Link and Ludwig who lost to me. It really helps when people don't know how to deal with Mr. Game & Watch and are completely unaware that Oil Panic can now absorb practically everything thrown at it.


Yeah, it actually uses a pure RNG this time instead of RNGs affected by "if-previous-2-numbers-were-used-already" rules. I've gotten multiple 9s and other numbers before.


The character you were hitting countered your Judge, allowing them to use it against you. As for TL, it's likely the shield he carries blocked it from connecting or he was under some kind of invincibility. Also, his side aerial is a box/package from Mario Bros.

The best strategy is to confuse your opponents as much as possible. With Oil Panic being able to absorb almost everything now, this can be rather easy (which think is his biggest buff but is one that's hardly talked about).

I'm definitely using Oil Panic more now, even though I don't have the game. But, ya know, until I get it, Brawl is good practice...

 

[WindozeNT]

Won another several local matches. Went against Robin, Morton, Ike, Meta Knight and Link.

 

[Grey Belnades]

Oh - my - god...
Now it's available on the Wii U, I can test things decently...

I can't believe you all said G&W got nerfed, while he now has probably the best move of the game: the Up Smash.
This move is ******** and out-priorities everything... I mean, EVERYTHING !
Thanks to this stupid buff, G&W is definitely not a low tier.

Edit: Well, everything excepts Bowser's Down B.
But that's a lot.

I miss my Brawl USmash hitbox though. There have been situations where I could've ended a match had upsmash retained the hitbox it had in Brawl. I swear the helmet makes contact with the person but it doesn't hit.

 

[Kofu]

I miss my Brawl USmash hitbox though. There have been situations where I could've ended a match had upsmash retained the hitbox it had in Brawl. I swear the helmet makes contact with the person but it doesn't hit.

It doesn't hit behind him but seems to hit very slightly in front of him. I agree, its hitbox is a little too small.

Regarding its invincibility, it appears to be active during the startup/charge release.

 

[BassX]

As G&W users, we collectively gotta find ways to make this guy better. Help certaintly isn't on the way from nintendo via buffs imo.

We need to get frama data on up smash and get a detailed list on what moves it can counter.

 

[JustKindaBoredUKno]

Mr. G&W is bad. Period. Anyone here who thinks he's anywhere near viable in real competitive play is either fooling themselves or doesn't actually understand high level competitive play. I've been using him since Brawl's release. And after trying and trying and trying, there is simply no way to use him effectively against anyone who has REAL matchup experience.

His smash game has been nerfed, horribly. He's lost the lingering hit box on f-smash, and the lasting hit box on dsmash has been reduced significantly. Both moves suffered significantly reduced knock back as well. Group those with the already highly punishable up smash, and G&W can now be easily punished on any of his smashes, god help you if you hit a shield. He had some saving grace with the invincibility frames he now has on up smash, but it hardly makes up for anything. Everyone is already learning to just walk away and punish after. If you're playing anyone who consistently dies by up-smash, THEY ARE NOT SKILLED PLAYERS. They are aggro-rushing fools. Arguing that up-smash is amazing is like arguing that warlock punch is amazing; of course it is, if they're dumb enough to walk into it.

Uptilt hits only directly above him, a limiting hit box that often leaves other moves as more practical options. Downtilt now has a cute little windbox which does little but occasionally catch your opponents off guard. Ftilt is probably his safest move period, and can provide kills at higher percentages, which I argue is the only character specific buff he received that proves useful.

Aerials got the shaft too. Increased landing lag on everything makes fair dangerous and dair very punishable, especially now that you can't control it's midair speed nearly as well or reliably as before. Uair has a reduced windbox, and SSB Air Dodge has made it nearly impossible to even land. Does have a nice little kill window, but you can easily miss it, causing the first hit of Uair to provide too much knock back for the second hit to land. Bair had its last poking hit removed, and is easily punished on shield. It is NOT a safe approach. You WILL be shieldgrabbed between hits. Nair has remained mainly the same visually, but contains much less priority.

Bucket is worthless against anyone who doesn't have an energy based projectile (or bombs now I guess, woohoo.) and even if they do have them, should be able to use them effectively if the player has any match-up experience at all. Judgement if anything received a nerf in that it is now truly random. I used to be able to risk my life throwing out that super punishable move knowing I wouldn't hit a 1 the next two times, now I don't know what to expect. (note: the multihit judge is very useful, but since we're apparently banning customs this doesn't help.) Up-B remains a safe recovery, and Chef tends to fly more practically, but hardly provides enough hitstun under 90 to do much more than throw a cheap shot out for a couple percent when the situation is optimal.

Throws remained the same save for dthrow, which sets up wonderfully on some of the cast, but can't be used on certain characters (a good Yoshi will Nair through your Nair.) G&W still continues to have one of the worst grab ranges in the game, however, so good luck getting close enough.

What people don't realize about G&W is that he will destroy characters "worse" than him harder than many characters above him can, but too many characters have too many moves that will guarantee a KO on G&W at 80% or higher. Certain matchups are literally unplayable. Once the tier list becomes defined and players become more knowledgeable in the match-up, G&W will settle into the lower tiers, just as he did in Brawl, and just as he did in Japan.

I'm not trying to be negative, I would love nothing more than more G&W to get better, but what I'm reading on here from some people is ludicrous. There's a fine line between wishful thinking and insanity. The first step to treating a problem is admitting there is one. Now repeat after me:

Mr. G&W is NOT good.

 

[VDZ]

Once the tier list becomes defined and players become more knowledgeable in the match-up, G&W will settle into the lower tiers, just as he did in Brawl, and just as he did in Japan.

Actually, Game & Watch started out as top tier on Brawl, and gradually shifted down over the years. But even then, he's still upper-mid tier in Brawl on the latest tier list.

But I fully agree that G&W got nerfed HARD and will likely end up near the bottom of the tier list. Personally, I think he's probably even worse than he was in Melee - in Melee he died really easily, but at least he was useful as long as you could keep him alive. He's now easier to keep alive but doesn't really do anything useful with its slow moves and (relative to earlier games) low priority.

 

[meleebrawler]

Mr. G&W is bad. Period. Anyone here who thinks he's anywhere near viable in real competitive play is either fooling themselves or doesn't actually understand high level competitive play. I've been using him since Brawl's release. And after trying and trying and trying, there is simply no way to use him effectively against anyone who has REAL matchup experience.

His smash game has been nerfed, horribly. He's lost the lingering hit box on f-smash, and the lasting hit box on dsmash has been reduced significantly. Both moves suffered significantly reduced knock back as well. Group those with the already highly punishable up smash, and G&W can now be easily punished on any of his smashes, god help you if you hit a shield. He had some saving grace with the invincibility frames he now has on up smash, but it hardly makes up for anything. Everyone is already learning to just walk away and punish after. If you're playing anyone who consistently dies by up-smash, THEY ARE NOT SKILLED PLAYERS. They are aggro-rushing fools. Arguing that up-smash is amazing is like arguing that warlock punch is amazing; of course it is, if they're dumb enough to walk into it.

Uptilt hits only directly above him, a limiting hit box that often leaves other moves as more practical options. Downtilt now has a cute little windbox which does little but occasionally catch your opponents off guard. Ftilt is probably his safest move period, and can provide kills at higher percentages, which I argue is the only character specific buff he received that proves useful.

Aerials got the shaft too. Increased landing lag on everything makes fair dangerous and dair very punishable, especially now that you can't control it's midair speed nearly as well or reliably as before. Uair has a reduced windbox, and SSB Air Dodge has made it nearly impossible to even land. Does have a nice little kill window, but you can easily miss it, causing the first hit of Uair to provide too much knock back for the second hit to land. Bair had its last poking hit removed, and is easily punished on shield. It is NOT a safe approach. You WILL be shieldgrabbed between hits. Nair has remained mainly the same visually, but contains much less priority.

Bucket is worthless against anyone who doesn't have an energy based projectile (or bombs now I guess, woohoo.) and even if they do have them, should be able to use them effectively if the player has any match-up experience at all. Judgement if anything received a nerf in that it is now truly random. I used to be able to risk my life throwing out that super punishable move knowing I wouldn't hit a 1 the next two times, now I don't know what to expect. (note: the multihit judge is very useful, but since we're apparently banning customs this doesn't help.) Up-B remains a safe recovery, and Chef tends to fly more practically, but hardly provides enough hitstun under 90 to do much more than throw a cheap shot out for a couple percent when the situation is optimal.

Throws remained the same save for dthrow, which sets up wonderfully on some of the cast, but can't be used on certain characters (a good Yoshi will Nair through your Nair.) G&W still continues to have one of the worst grab ranges in the game, however, so good luck getting close enough.

What people don't realize about G&W is that he will destroy characters "worse" than him harder than many characters above him can, but too many characters have too many moves that will guarantee a KO on G&W at 80% or higher. Certain matchups are literally unplayable. Once the tier list becomes defined and players become more knowledgeable in the match-up, G&W will settle into the lower tiers, just as he did in Brawl, and just as he did in Japan.

I'm not trying to be negative, I would love nothing more than more G&W to get better, but what I'm reading on here from some people is ludicrous. There's a fine line between wishful thinking and insanity. The first step to treating a problem is admitting there is one. Now repeat after me:

Mr. G&W is NOT good.

So I guess we're all wasting our time here and should move
on to some better characters, or wait for some buffs in a patch
that may or may not be happening?

While it may be true that 4 G&W is overall worse than Brawl,
we should be looking for new ways to win with him, as opposed
to lamenting the loss of strong options in past games.

You have to admit Brawl D-smash WAS kind of ridiculous.
A move that can kill well almost regardless of whether it sweetspots or
not AND is almost as fast as Meta Knight's? "Oh, but he's extra light
so it's justified he gets broken offensive tools." His new one may be slower
and has a weaker sourspot, but it has more range and still kills well on sweetspot.
Fsmash lingering is definitely a big loss, but it just encourages you to be more
careful, like with most of G&W's changes. Up smash was nothing to write
home about in Brawl either, but now that it has absolute priority it gained a
niche in beating predictable aerials.

His air game is still good with great disjoints, it's just
not as ridiculously safe anymore. You may not be able to go YOLO
with Bair on shields, but it can still be safe if spaced well (C-sticking aerials
helps!). Fair actually has LESS landing lag that past games (don't kill me
if this was a false impression early on.)

I could go on and on about the things that G&W can do in this
game, but what I'm trying to say is that he's not going to become any
better by whining or praying. We can (and should) acknowledge his faults
and maybe realize that winning with him may be harder than with some other characters.
But rather than be sad about the loss of things that made him good
in a past game, we need to look for new tools and strategies
he didn't have before. Don't turn away or discourage people
who try to make a character work.