Moveset Balance- is it possible?

[CRASHiC]

Without changing any pokemon's stats, is it possible to make them balanced?
Now, I'm not going so far as to ask if you could make Magcargo an Uber pokemon, but could we balance so far to almost completely get rid of the NU tier, and increase the number of pokemon labeled in UU and OU?

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/lapras

Here we see Lapras, and making a single change about Lapris will cause an immediate fix for a lot of pokemon. She needs a continuous rain dance ability. With Lapris gaining this ability, more than water pokemon get a boost. Here are some examples:

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/gorebyss

Gorebyss is obvious, slow pokemon with high special attack and swift swim.

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/toxicroak
Toxicroack now becomes an amazing Focus Sub abuser, being both faster than Breloom, and now being able to heal on an equal level with Breloom without leech seed.

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/parasect
Lowering its fire weakness, giving it a recovery option, and allowing it to become a stable on water dance teams. Along side Toxicroack using his Phsycic scarer set would be provide amazing support option, setting up for a spore.

These are just a few examples of pokemon that would be aided in changing this one ability on this one pokemon. The team could look something like

Lapris
Toxicroack
Parasect/Scizor (depending on if you want sleep aid or not)
Kingdra
Swampert
Gorebyss




http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/flareon
One word again: Drought
and give it a Flare Blitz too.
Then, what we have is a few options to use Flareon.
We could use it as a choice scarfed attacker, its attacks boosted by its fire. This lets it do 94% damage to full HP and Defense EVed Nidoking.
It could be a wish/yawn supporter.
Now, let's see what teammates would get a welcomed boost from the Drought ability.

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/exeggutor
This one is rather obvious, and is frequent in Ubers.

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/jumpluff
Another obvious one, frequent in ubers.

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/donphan
Now eliminating his water weakness, Donphan can now switch in more reliably, set up spikes. Though he does need a few more support moves, Donphan would recieve a nice boost in this team.

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/gliscor
Already a formidable wall, Gliscor now has a boost against pesky Gyardose, as well as a boosted Fire Fang for grass pokemon.

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/togekiss
A large special attack stat, now added with an instant power move, Solar Beam, not to mention a Nasty Plot based Solar Beam.

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/cresselia
A wonderful support option, with the ability to heal 2/3rds HP, set up reflect or light screen, and use an instant solar beam.

Now, much of pokemon tiers are based not on the pokemon's over all ability, but on who is up and who is down. So not all pokemon would need changes. Some would simply reappear on the scene simply by being counters to other pokemon. The more options there are, the more counters there are. There would be much more room to expand upon here.

Of course, there are lost causes, such as Spindra, who has such a horrid stat set that even its already diverse movepool makes it next to useless. Also, I'm not saying Hey, we should do this, I'm simply stating that there are some steps towards balance that could be taken, if only for fun and not for the competitive zone. I also am not recommending any sort of teams here, I'm pretty sure that rain dance team was awful. This was just an example of how changing one pokemon's ability (though it is a rather huge change, giving pokemon a legendaries ability.

So, what are some pokemon missing that could bump them up a tier or two?

 

[Wave⁂]

Physical Fire attacks are very problematic, IMO. It's what's stopping Flareon, Entei, Magmortar, even Charizard to some extent from rising up.

Close Combat Medicham. 'Nuff said.

Also, OU and UU will always contain 50 Pokemon each.

 

[peregrine monkey]

Luvdisc.

/thread

Oh, and Unown.

 

[Metal~Mario]

So you're asking is if it is possible to completely upgrade a pokemon by changing just one thing about it?

If so:

A LOT of pokemon could benefit from a weather ability. That's a little too broad.
However, I do agree about Flareon and Flare Blitz. I believe Entei could benefit from Drought or Flare Blitz as well.

An Agility Medicham would be way more dangerous than a CC Medicham.

 

[CRASHiC]

Physical Fire attacks are very problematic, IMO. It's what's stopping Flareon, Entei, Magmortar, even Charizard to some extent from rising up.

Flareon has no physical stab. Flare Blitz would work wonders on it.
During sunny day, against the most used Gyaradose set, Flareon would 69% damage, not to mention if stealth rocks were in effect.

Also, OU and UU will always contain 50 Pokemon each.

From what I see though, as the number of pokemon has grown, the pokemon in UU are becoming extremly out of place simply because they don't fit in the OU metagame. Yes, we have borderline to prevent most of that, but it doesn't work as well as it should.

So you're asking is if it is possible to completely upgrade a pokemon by changing just one thing about it?

No, I'm saying if we could change everything but stats and typing, how many pokemon could we make Standard competitors.

 

[Thunda-Moo]

Hmmm... I wonder how many spammers are going to say "give everything sketch!"

Crap, I probably just gave them that idea.

Well, most everything would benefit from a recover-esque move, but most notably walls like shuckle and registeel that have to rely on pure defence instead.

Huge amounts of unfairness could be created with a bit of serene grace and no guard.

But again, these are just obvious things.

Let's go with Octillary, because he's my favorite PKMN. He has very good Atk and SAtk, along with suction cups. Imagine how he could be improved with a bit of agility or nasty plot! His phisical prowess is also largely untapped due to his small phisical movepool. So much more could be possible!

I've also always loved the concept of Power Trick shuckle. Such absurd power in such a silly place! But shuckle has a tiny movepool and no hitpoints. If only he had a way to get decent speed or have a few more things he counters... But I can think of nothing.

Of course, the best way to win is to predict what your foe's going to do and counter it. So the more versatility something has, the less predictable, and that is best. That's why gliscor is OU. I've always loved doing stupid things like making a physical mewtwo and countering the counter that's trying to counter my counter.

For instance, I hold that the more things with explosion the better. No one sees the gengar bomb coming.

Power trick is a move I want to see in more places. Defensive cacturne, anyone?

Unfortunatly, stats dictate usefulness more then anything, as you pointed out with spinda. But too many things are beaten by a lack of options, something I'd love to see a change in.

 

[supermarth64]

IIRC, the people at CAP on Smogon did a test where they had level 1 Kyogres and Groudons and found it too overcentralizing and powerful, even while at level one. In order to fix these Pokemon'a problems, we're going to have to give then massive moveset boosts.

 

[Wave⁂]

Just one little thing that could fix many, many things... Speed Orb. Gives 30% boost to speed and drains 10% of your HP each time you attack. Imagine Tangrowth, Glaceon, et all abusing it.

 

[CRASHiC]

IIRC, the people at CAP on Smogon did a test where they had level 1 Kyogres and Groudons and found it too overcentralizing and powerful, even while at level one

To counter it, wouldn't teams start bringing people with Hippowdown, Abomosnow, and Tyranitar? They missed the chance of letting Defog get rid of weather conditions. That would have been an amazing balance tool, especially for Ubers.

 

[Metal~Mario]

Ohhhh...
That makes more sense.

OK then how about:

Luxray w/Volt Tackle
Same issue as Flareon, but even less likely to happen than Flare Blitz due to Volt Tackle being exclusive to Pikachu. (thru breeding, I might add)

Poliwrath needs major movepool enhancement to be usable in higher tiers. More specifically, he needs Close Combat.

I don't have any other suggestions. Other than of course, making up abilities/moves.

 

[CRASHiC]

Another major change I think that we need, Whirlwind to remove stealth rocks, as well as many, many more pokemon knowing how to rapid spin, making the prevention of removal a much harder process.

 

[Metal~Mario]

OR you could just ban SR and watch the Fires, Bugs, and Birds return to UU/OU (Charizard) in droves.

 

[xLeafybug =D]

What they need to do with Flareon is give it some decent Physical attacks, how are they going to give the strongest base attack out of all Fire type pokemon, and leaving him with nothing but Superpower? However, I believe that Drought and Drizzle are exclusive to Groudon and Kyogre, and that shouldn't be changed.

And yeah, a Speed Orb would be AMAZING. A Speed orb would make pokemon with High attack and High Sp. Atk, like Hkrow, amazing. That being said, I think it would probably put TTar in Ubers.

 

[Platypus]

The Speed Orb is silly when the Choice Scarf is considered. If you have two moves that you can use to OHKO stuff, use a Salac Berry and Endure or something. Obviously, this is an over-generalization, since Tyranitar is better off taking a Bullet Punch than dying to one. However, he has both dual high offensive statistics and dual high defenses, a relatively rare occurence.

If Mawile had Pluck, it might actually hurt Infernape.

It doesn't even have Dig.

 

[Wave⁂]

Salac Endure requires an item slot, a move slot, and prediction.

 

[xLeafybug =D]

Not necessarily. Choice items give you 20% more than life orb, but lock your Pokemon into one move until switching, while Life orb allows you maximum coverage that your Pokemon can provide, at the cost of 1/10 of your HP and 20% less power. But people choose Life Orb anyways, depending on the situation, because they don't like having only one move before switching.

 

[CRASHiC]

Another thing that will do is give these slower pokemon the time to set up there status moves before being taunted.

Let's take a good look at Dewgong.

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/dewgong

The stats are medicore. Nothing to special.
Finding a use for this pokemon has been a trouble for me. What could I give this pokemon that Wailren doesn't already do better??
I looked at its movepool, and saw an oddity, Perish Song, yet no way to trap the pokemon.
So I looked around a big at the other perish trappers.

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/jynx
First I went to the perish trapper that came to mind, Jynx. What would a Perish trapping Dewgong have over it?
Well, for starters, better type covering from a defensive stand point. But, Jynx has Lovely Kiss, that bides it some time. Even then, Jynx has an easier time setting up Perish Trap because of her speed, and the ability to switch in, threaten, then lovely kiss her own counter, then perish trap her next opponent.
Worst part about this all, I'm comparing it to Jynx, and Jynx isn't even the best perish trapper.

 

[Wave⁂]

You didn't mention RainRest Dewgong.

What the hell.

 

[supermarth64]

They missed the chance of letting Defog get rid of weather conditions. That would have been an amazing balance tool, especially for Ubers.

Defog also removes Stealth Rock, Spikes, and Toxic Spikes on both sides. I HIGHLY doubt you'd want to remove your own SR.

 

[SpiredMoth]

Defog only gets rid of entry hazards on the target's side, but in singles you would be getting rid of your own spikes and rocks.

 

[CRASHiC]

You didn't mention RainRest Dewgong.

What the hell.

My main battle buddy uses that set. Its nothing to really praise though. Since an earlier person ruled out rain dance pokemon, Dewgong doesn't seem to be an incredibly effective wall, especially when you look at its stats, plus its Rock weakness and the lack of stats to make up for it.
Does anyone have any ideas on how to balance Dewgong outside of an evolution or stat change?

 

[Deleted member]

the +30% speed item idea is a horrible one.

giving any non-uber either drought or drizzle is also a terrible idea.

I think spore and baton pass should be completely removed, as well as changing SR to do 10% and hit everything equally rather than based on typing. steel type should also be weak to water, and dragon shouldn't resist electric. poison should hit fighting SE.

I think thats it.

 

[Wave⁂]

No Baton Pass actually really only hurts Ninjask. I'm not sure that removing that vector of gameplay is such a good idea, though. SR being a one-turn version of two layers of spikes is something I would get behind. All your typing ideas make sense, too.

 

[CRASHiC]

and dragon shouldn't resist electric

What? Why? Its not like its going to change a lot.
It would hurt Dragonite, and hurt his already lack luster useage.
Kingdra- see above
Flygon, lol
Garchomp- lol
Latias would effect his play
Salamence though a lack of specle defense, he is quicker than Dragonite, so he isn't hurt as bad. After one Dragon Dance, he can hit Joleteon with Earthquake.

I could see it changing things in Uber, but that's it.

Also, how does Spore make any pokemon unviable? You might not like it, but it doesn't make any pokemon unviable. In fact, it increases the need for viable sleep talkers.

 

[Wave⁂]

I suppose it would do more harm than good, but it makes sense.

 

[kirbyraeg]

making SR 12.5% max damage with resistances to it still applying.

 

[Pink Reaper]

there really needs to be a move other than Rapid Spin that gets rid of Spikes. Something non-normal.

 

[WouW]

Field effects should be nerfed hard. Like, Spikes should only do 1/16 (6,25%) damage and not be stackable, Toxic Spikes should be removed entirely and SR should do 1/32 to resists, 1/16 normally and 1/8 damage to weaknesses, ignoring double resistances and weaknesses.

 

[Vyse]

there really needs to be a move other than Rapid Spin that gets rid of Spikes. Something non-normal.

Like Whirlwind, or moves like Whirlpool/Fire Spin.

 

[Metal~Mario]

there really needs to be a move other than Rapid Spin that gets rid of Spikes. Something non-normal.

A Ghost attack that removes Spikes/SR would be pretty nice....

Or just a Rapid Spin-like move accessible to more pokemon.

If dragon didn't resist electric, all electrics could carry HP grass and still be able to slaughter dragons. Also, Kingdra/Dragonite would never see the higher tiers.

 

[Wave⁂]

Ominous Wind is perfect.

 

[Metal~Mario]

Hmmm...
Probably have to drop the 10% chance for AllStats+1

But it'd be worth it

 

[Deleted member]

I think Flame Wheel, Gust and maybe Twister should clear entry hazards (Twister is learned by way too many pokémon, so that may not be a good idea)
Maybe SR affecting both teams?
I think Spikes and Toxic Spikes are 0k, they at least need setup.

 

[CRASHiC]

I think spore and baton pass should be completely removed.

Yeah, I've been thinking, and I really don't like this post.

1. Spore doesn't make any pokemon non-viable. It may be annoying to you, but it isn't making anyone non-viable.
2. baton pass doesn't make less pokemon non-viable, it makes MORE pokemon, but taking tanks and making them power houses. Baton pass teams are doing really ****ty in todays environment. There is no reason to get rid of them.

There is no reason in terms of balance to remove both of these things from the game. If you were to ban them, what would happen? Nothing, that is what. Breloom would probably drop, Parasect would be useless, Ninjask would drop, and what pokemon would rise in use in their place? Not many, because these aren't even over centralizing pokemon to begin with in today's environment. With so many priority moves running around and stealth rocks, Ninjask has a hard time even setting up. Getting bullet punched when trying to substitute is not a fun thing to do. The only thing I see is Gengar moving up to step in for Breloom. That's it.

 

[verycoolguy]

steel type should also be weak to water

If that were to happen, the metagame would drastically change big time. Water would hit every Steel type not named Empoleon or Dialga for SE damage, while those two lose to Earthquake or Aura Sphere. Everyone will replace their random Special Fire attacks for Water.

Water would then be the best offensive typing, and being a great defensive type will then make Water type Pokemon a staple to any team. So then Water Pokemon will over centralize the game.

Many Pokemon will then carry random Electric attacks, or Grass Knot, and Thunder might be used often for possible Rain teams. Fire type Pokemon can be completely shut down, unless they use Sunny Day. Tyranitar can be a used much more to counter these teams.



Water should hit Steel for SE damage though, since metal oxidizes faster in the water.

 

[Asdioh]

I think it would be nice if Grass resisted Steel, and hit Steel for regular damage, rather than NVE. It would make Grass suck less. This would be better than Water being SE against Steel.


Then again, I'm a noob, so my opinion doesn't matter.


A lot of good ideas in this thread, though.

I can't help but wonder why Rapid Spin has 20 Power. wtf?

 

[verycoolguy]

Steel losing a resistance to a neutral hit is not really going to make a huge difference. Grass isn't even a good offensive type. Another type resisting Steel would not make a big difference either, since Steel is already a mediocre offensive type.
Steel resisting Grass makes a lot of sense. In fact, Steel should be SE against Grass. Just think of people chopping down trees or trimming bushes with those metal blades.

Rapid Spin isn't meant to be a move to cause damage, but for pure utility.


Psychic should perhaps hit Steel SE. Spoon bending.

 

[Asdioh]

I'm not looking to make a huge difference, small changes at a time are usually the best way to achieve balance.

As for logic behind type effectiveness...I think the game's gone beyond logic at this point XD

I mean...fire is super effective to steel? It makes sense....at VERY high temperatures, for an extended period of time. :/
A Fire Punch really shouldn't hurt a Steel type that much. You know?

In fact, Steel should be SE against Grass. Just think of people chopping down trees or trimming bushes with those metal blades.

How many Steel moves are actually like a metal blade though? I can think of Steel Wing...I mean, in this case, a normal move like Slash or Cut should be SE against Grass.

It's hard to make sense out of Pokemon games at a deep level, is what I'm saying.


Also, Grass isn't a good offensive type because it is NVE against 7 types, the most of any offensive type in the game.

^ for the lulz


But Steel IS a good offensive type. Otherwise, Bullet Punching Scizor wouldn't be so successful, would it?

I'm still a noob though

 

[RuNNing Riot]

But Steel IS a good offensive type. Otherwise, Bullet Punching Scizor wouldn't be so successful, would it?

I'm still a noob though

He was probably talking about the overall metagame. Steel only hits two types SE, but four NVE. Bullet Punch Scizor does so well primarily because it can combine with his Technician ability, and STAB as well. Not to mention his high Attack and +1 priority.

In fact, Steel should be SE against Grass. Just think of people chopping down trees or trimming bushes with those metal blades.

This kind of rationalizing what hits what SE and NVE isn't very good. Perhaps we should have Fire SE against Water, because after all, water evaporates into steam. Or maybe Fire should be NVE against Grass, because green plants don't burn very well. Hell, we could even have Electric ineffective against Water, because pure water isn't actually a very good conductor!

Spoiler

It's only when salt's dissolved in the water that it conducts. On that note, perhaps Electric should be SE on Ground too!

 

[Pika25]

Luxray w/Volt Tackle
Same issue as Flareon, but even less likely to happen than Flare Blitz due to Volt Tackle being exclusive to Pikachu. (thru breeding, I might add)

Volt Tackle, a Shinx egg move!? Might be possible in later generations or something; certainly not now.

Speaking of Pikachu, maybe giving it an alternative ability to Static? Something that actually gives Pikachu a speed boost or something? Or something like Huge Power? Something that can take advantage of its held Light Ball.