Movement in Smash 4

[ryuu seika]

Yeah, you're right about that. There should probably be a minimum height requirement, and anything under that would result in a waveland. This would also prevent broken tactics like Instant Air Dash > Knee.

I'd be more worried about short hop air dash rest. Space it right and you land inside your opponent for a near instant KO.
That limitation is a must.

 

[D-idara]

In another thread, I posted an idea for a simplified wavedash input. The idea was basically to remove jumping from the input, so all you would have to do in order to wavedash is to press diagonal down and L or R. Left/Right and L or R would still be a dodge roll, down and L/R would still spot dodge.
But...that's only if wavedashing actually needed to be simplified.

Which it does.

 

[Cap'nChreest]

Instead of Wavedashing for this game since its a big barrier to new gamers they should make roll's cancelable. So you can jump/attack at anytime during a roll. That would eliminate the need for any kind of new/difficult input but still provide the movement options that advanced players want. It would also keep rolling from being predictable garbage.

 

[DaDavid]

Instead of Wavedashing for this game since its a big barrier to new gamers they should make roll's cancelable. So you can jump/attack at anytime during a roll. That would eliminate the need for any kind of new/difficult input but still provide the movement options that advanced players want. It would also keep rolling from being predictable garbage.

This is what I'm personally hoping for. I mean rolls are already there (coming in from Brawl of course) so it makes the most sense to me to increase their utility. We see that we can act faster out of them, but no indication of them being cancelable, so I guess it's fingers crossed on that one.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Instead of Wavedashing for this game since its a big barrier to new gamers they should make roll's cancelable. So you can jump/attack at anytime during a roll. That would eliminate the need for any kind of new/difficult input but still provide the movement options that advanced players want. It would also keep rolling from being predictable garbage.

A wavedash with invincibility frames?

No thanks.

 

[mimgrim]

All I want to do is short-hop laser with Falco. At least closer to melee. Brawl's short-hop laser was terrible. ugh... Its like hitting a wall every time you jump. Melee was so fluid in the air. Then if I can short hop laser with falco that means that I can short hop arrow with Pit. Man he's going to be so good in this game.

When you jump in the air and do a short-hop laser with falco or fox you can't cover as much distance. You can't fast fall while doing the laser too. you kinda hop and stop. Also the lasers go above everyones head. Melee's shl was funner to do imo. You had more movement in melees shl. You could mind game with your lasers. In brawl theres not enough freedom of motion in the air. its like skipping(brawl) versus long jumping(melee). I hope you can fast fall while doing a shl in smash 4.

What are you talking about?

Falco's lasers are one of the best, if not the best, projectiles in Brawl. But not only that you can do double laser instead of just one. And if it's going over everyone's heads then you don't have the timing down, is all. I don't even know where this BS is coming that you hop and stop either.

When you try to criticize something make sure you know everything you are criticizing. >_>

I am all in favor of some characters being more mobile than others. Characters that are not mobile usually tend to be slow overall, and I think that slow characters should be embraced for the style that they are supposed to represent instead of being abandoned due to the fact that "slow isn't as competitively viable as fast". There are other ways to make "slow" characters fun and effective.
For all its virtues, this is the thing that I don't like about Project M. They just increased Melee's game speed, thinking "Melee was a fast game, and Melee was a good game, so let's make Project M faster than Melee, which will in turn make Project M better than Melee". It wasn't a horrible move by any means. I mean, I know there are tons of people who just wanted a faster Smash however they could get it. But increasing the overall game speed was definitely not the ideal move, or the only way you can make a game seem "faster". This is especially true if you start to consider pacing as an entertainment factor, i.e. having "Brawl" moments of speed and "Melee" moments of speed in the same game.
Take a look at Ike for example. I feel like the mindset for his Project M changes was "Ike is a slow character, which means that he needs mobility, so lets allow him to cancel his side-B" because high mobility has become such a standard for viability in Melee. Simply giving the positive assets of a viable character to another character who isn't as viable is not always the best design choice. Yes, the changes to Ike's side B made him more viable. Yes, Ike is by no means a clone of another mobile character. But still, I think Ike could have benefited greatly from another mechanic that would have synergy with his role as a heavy sword character.
I hope I've made my point clear enough. Admittedly, I haven't thought about every little aspect of the point I'm trying to make, but I think I can TLDR it for you:
Having fast and slow characters is good because diversity is good in the long run(not to say that a game can't be all speed and still survive for years). So, I am more in favor of giving characters unique and thematic mechanics as opposed to universal mobility options.

It isn't faster then Melee. It's more fluid. There is a big difference. But in truth it is actually slower then Melee, and many Melee fans complain about this.

It's the reason allot of uninformed people think Brawl is faster then Melee. It has better fluidity.


Anyways for movement;

I would say momentum is the most important part to the movement aspect. It affects so much of the game.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

He means how in Melee when you run then SH Laser you Cary the momentum over instead of it being neutralized in Brawl, also mentions how you can't fast fall mid laser either, so you can't do cool **** like this:

 

[J1NG]

It's the reason allot of uninformed people think Brawl is faster then Melee.

Wait, there are people that think Brawl is faster than Melee?
Oh boy...
Anyway, I have an idea that's pretty wonky, and I'd like an opinion on it:
Would it be interesting if players suffered less damage while moving away from opponents? At the same time, players would suffer more damage if they were moving towards opponents? It's not a necessary feature by any means, it's just something that I thought would be a tad bit more realistic.

 

[Baskerville]

He means how in Melee when you run then SH Laser you Cary the momentum over instead of it being neutralized in Brawl, also mentions how you can't fast fall mid laser either, so you can't do cool **** like this:

This is one of the main things I want back from Melee.

 

[Empyrean]

Wait, there are people that think Brawl is faster than Melee?
Oh boy...
Anyway, I have an idea that's pretty wonky, and I'd like an opinion on it:
Would it be interesting if players suffered less damage while moving away from opponents? At the same time, players would suffer more damage if they were moving towards opponents? It's not a necessary feature by any means, it's just something that I thought would be a tad bit more realistic.

I don't know man, looks like it could encourage people to either a) Go super hard and try not to get hit, or b) Camp or stall until they see an appropriate opening. It could disrupt the flow of battle.

 

[Cap'nChreest]

What are you talking about?

Falco's lasers are one of the best, if not the best, projectiles in Brawl. But not only that you can do double laser instead of just one. And if it's going over everyone's heads then you don't have the timing down, is all. I don't even know where this BS is coming that you hop and stop either.

When you try to criticize something make sure you know everything you are criticizing. >_>

Bananas and armor pieces are way better than Falco's lasers. When I said "kinda hop and stop" I didn't mean literally. I just meant that you lose all of your momentum and slow down tremendously in a short hop. You can run full speed then short hop and go almost nowhere. Doing 2 lasers isn't better than doing one if you can only do it for adding damage and not for getting in an attack. From my experience Falco's SHDL in Brawl doesn't serve the same purpose as Falco's SHL in Melee. Sure they can both give damage but in Melee you actually can have some air mobility and follow up with a decent attack or a kill move. In Brawl when I SHDL with Falco I feel like I'm doing a jump in Castlevania and I feel like I have to camp with them. But then again thats just my experience. I'm more of a Melee guy.

Edit: You know probably the best thing to use the SHDL for is to BDACUS immediately after. I can BDACUS(very infrequently) just not after a SHDL... Its so hard. Thats where Brawl beats Melee. You cant slide across the stage into upsmash immediately after a shl in Melee. I just hope that smash 4 is more like Melee though.

 

[mimgrim]

He means how in Melee when you run then SH Laser you Cary the momentum over instead of it being neutralized in Brawl, also mentions how you can't fast fall mid laser either, so you can't do cool **** like this:

Oh that. I took "stop" to be literally. My bad there.

But yea, momentum really needs to come back.

Wait, there are people that think Brawl is faster than Melee?
Oh boy...

Yes. Mostly very new players who didn't keep up with the games before then, I use too be one of them after all . And I've seen tons of people say the same thing.

It's quite an easy misconception for uninformed people though. Fluidity can be really deceptive as speed at times.

Bananas and armor pieces are way better than Falco's lasers. When I said "kinda hop and stop" I didn't mean literally. I just meant that you lose all of your momentum and slow down tremendously in a short hop. You can run full speed then short hop and go almost nowhere. Doing 2 lasers isn't better than doing one if you can only do it for adding damage and not for getting in an attack. From my experience Falco's SHDL in Brawl doesn't serve the same purpose as Falco's SHL in Melee. Sure they can both give damage but in Melee you actually can have some air mobility and follow up with a decent attack or a kill move. In Brawl when I SHDL with Falco I feel like I'm doing a jump in Castlevania and I feel like I have to camp with them. But then again thats just my experience. I'm more of a Melee guy.

Edit: You know probably the best thing to use the SHDL for is to BDACUS immediately after. I can BDACUS(very infrequently) just not after a SHDL... Its so hard. Thats where Brawl beats Melee. You cant slide across the stage into upsmash immediately after a shl in Melee. I just hope that smash 4 is more like Melee though.

They really aren't that much better. And I wouldn't really list Armor Pieces as a projectile because you don't use a button to bring them out and you don't have constant access to them.

Your problem is that you are comparing Brawl laser to Melee laser and not looking at Brawl's laser for what it is in it's own game. Which is infinitely more important then comparing it to a past game. And more then likely you are playing Brawl with a Melee mindset, which is once again a no-no. Adding in Damage is very important when playing Brawl. It's a much more defensive game. And Falco's lasers works great for it.

So like I said before, Falco's lasers is one of the best projectiles in Brawl and is extremely useful. But you need knowledge of Brawl to know why.

 

[Cap'nChreest]

They really aren't that much better. And I wouldn't really list Armor Pieces as a projectile because you don't use a button to bring them out and you don't have constant access to them.

Your problem is that you are comparing Brawl laser to Melee laser and not looking at Brawl's laser for what it is in it's own game. Which is infinitely more important then comparing it to a past game. And more then likely you are playing Brawl with a Melee mindset, which is once again a no-no. Adding in Damage is very important when playing Brawl. It's a much more defensive game. And Falco's lasers works great for it.

So like I said before, Falco's lasers is one of the best projectiles in Brawl and is extremely useful. But you need knowledge of Brawl to know why.

Yup. I'm definitely lacking Brawl knowledge. I used to spam and play like melee. Now I've learned some brawl tech but I have a hard time implementing it (playing basic brawl and general brawl lack of knowledge). I guess since you can't combo a lot in brawl damage is the best route.

Hopefully with smash 4 the movement is more similar to melee. I really just wish they'd give some more info on things like movement. I doubt it. We can only hope that when the next character is revealed that we will continue to see faster and more aggressive gameplay. So far it looks good enough for me. I think in a trailer the gameplay can be misleading. The gameplay in the other trailers look slow in comparison to Little Mac's. They were really pushing for him to look fast. I don't think they were trying to show speed as much in the other trailers. For all we know everyone could be similarly fast. Not exactly but still pretty quick. Melee looks slow when you play it slowly too. Brawl can look fast when you play it quickly. It all depends on how they show it. So far its looking pretty good.

 

[DaDavid]

Melee looks slow when you play it slowly too. Brawl can look fast when you play it quickly. It all depends on how they show it. So far its looking pretty good.

Yeah I'm always a bit skeptical about what the speed actually looks like in trailers because obviously those can be misleading depending on what they are trying to highlight.

But at the same time, I feel confident enough knowing that none of the Brawl trailers that I've gone back and looked at displayed any of the speed/pace that some of these trailers are showing us. It may well end up being a bit slower than I'm expecting, but I'm pretty sure it'll be fast enough for me to get into it.

 

[smashmachine]

wait some people think Brawl is faster than Melee?
I thought the common complaint about Melee from some people was that it was too fast, and they preferred Brawl's slower pace
lolwut

 

[Big-Cat]

I see wavedashing more as "I want to use the momentum of an airdodge to approach/get away but in order to do that, I also need to jump". In my eyes, the input for WD makes sense, but I totally understand why others would find it weird. As for the movement itself being unrealistic, I don't really consider it an issue, specially since double-jumping and directional dodging in the air don't make much sense either when used by most of the cast.

I've been meaning to respond to this, but I forgot earlier.

I just can't wrap my head around this approach to wavedashing. Wouldn't it be simpler to say that I want to quickly move in or out?

Yeah I'm always a bit skeptical about what the speed actually looks like in trailers because obviously those can be misleading depending on what they are trying to highlight.

But at the same time, I feel confident enough knowing that none of the Brawl trailers that I've gone back and looked at displayed any of the speed/pace that some of these trailers are showing us. It may well end up being a bit slower than I'm expecting, but I'm pretty sure it'll be fast enough for me to get into it.

The trailers from back then hardly showed anything meaningful. Looking back at the 2006 Brawl trailer, it's really bad in terms of showing anything substantial. Compare this to Smash 4's trailers which have a lot of stuff to analyze, and you can get a lot out of them.

 

[Deleted member]

I would like to see an increase in aerial momentum. Seeing a part of Little Mac's trailer makes me feel confident that they brought this back from Melee. The lack of momentum in Brawl definitely hit some characters hard, like Captain Falcon.

Other than that, I am fine with how everything is thus far. I cannot tell how fast or slow this game is, but I am glad that it is at least faster than Brawl. I don't care if wavedashing doesn't return because it wasn't something that I cared for in the beginning (I can do it, but I still don't care for it).

 

[Empyrean]

I've been meaning to respond to this, but I forgot earlier.

I just can't wrap my head around this approach to wavedashing. Wouldn't it be simpler to say that I want to quickly move in or out?

Well, yes, it would be simpler. I just did so by explaining the process required to perform such a quick movement technique. I guess it made my statement overly complicated.

 

[D-idara]

Wouldn't just reducing the ending lag on dashes basically have the same effect as Wavedash with a much simpler input? just twitch the controller stick in that direction once.

 

[DaDavid]

Well, yes, it would be simpler. I just did so by explaining the process required to perform such a quick movement technique. I guess it made my statement overly complicated.

Which, (and this isn't an attack in case somehow it comes off as such) is what my problem with the wavedash input was in the first place when I mentioned how I find it to be unnatural or whatever I said. The actual thing that is happening and the actual thing you have to do to make it happen don't sync up 1:1 like a roll does or a dash would.

 

[Empyrean]

Which, (and this isn't an attack in case somehow it comes off as such) is what my problem with the wavedash input was in the first place when I mentioned how I find it to be unnatural or whatever I said. The actual thing that is happening and the actual thing you have to do to make it happen don't sync up 1:1 like a roll does or a dash would.

I understand your point of view, and I too would like it if they could give wavedashing a better input (maybe one of the Z buttons?) for an eventual, albeit improbable, return. Although I will admit that if airdodging is used once again, it wouldn't pose a big problem for me (and many others) as I have gotten used to it to the point where it has become intuitive. I fully realize that what I'm saying is purely based on bias, but it is also important to keep in mind that it cannot be said that a technique is objectively unnatural.

 

[DaDavid]

I understand your point of view, and I too would like it if they could give wavedashing a better input (maybe one of the Z buttons?) for an eventual, albeit improbable, return. Although I will admit that if airdodging is used once again, it wouldn't pose a big problem for me (and many others) as I have gotten used to it to the point where it has become intuitive. I fully realize that what I'm saying is purely based on bias, but it is also important to keep in mind that it cannot be said that a technique is objectively unnatural.

Yeah I guess I don't find the technique unnatural in itself, especially given the context of the game. Just given the parameters I set up within myself, the input is less in line with with what other inputs do.

Any sort of mobility option should feel as any other I guess, if that makes sense. Unfortunately the more I think about it the more I feel like this is one aspect where the 3DS might actually end up hurting the overall experience... Unless it ends up being just the 3DS that has to deal with different sorts of inputs for it's relative lack of buttons. I mean Sakurai has said he's developing with the Wii U Pro in mind right?

 

[Empyrean]

I mean Sakurai has said he's developing with the Wii U Pro in mind right?

I certainly do hope so, but I've never heard him say it explicitly.


Unless he's making every input based on the gamepad and its screen. In that case, wavedashing would require you to flick the pad vertically followed by a diagonal movement in the directional you want to go. RIP waveshiners.

 

[DaDavid]

I certainly do hope so, but I've never heard him say it explicitly.


Unless he's making every input based on the gamepad and its screen. In that case, wavedashing would require you to flick the pad vertically followed by a diagonal movement in the directional you want to go. RIP waveshiners.

Yeah I couldn't find what I thought he had said about the Wii U Pro, but I did find a small mention about... something controller related haha.

http://www.digitalspy.com/gaming/news/a398003/super-smash-bros-creator-talks-wii-u-controls.html

 

[Empyrean]

Yeah I couldn't find what I thought he had said about the Wii U Pro, but I did find a small mention about... something controller related haha.

http://www.digitalspy.com/gaming/news/a398003/super-smash-bros-creator-talks-wii-u-controls.html

I do remember that article, now that I think about it. Funny how he goes out to say that the GC controller is not the only way to play Smash. That statement seems to be directed specifically at the competitive crowd.

Anyways, controller-wise, I don't see how there could be a problem for movement and such with the Wii U Pro.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Wouldn't just reducing the ending lag on dashes basically have the same effect as Wavedash with a much simpler input? just twitch the controller stick in that direction once.

Perhaps yes. I can recall a point in the Sonic Trailer in the beginning where Mario dashed and was in his sliding animation and cancelled it into a standing jab, when typically this would just cause a character to do a delayed dash attack. Maybe the input mechanics for doing dash attacks have changed and you can cancel dash lag with an attack. A player could possibly dash turn around during the pivot lag and and cancel it with a jab, tilt or maybe a smash.

 

[LancerStaff]

I can't help but feel this thread is pointless. Half of it is Wavedashing discussion, and the other is about made-up techniques that have practically no chance whatsoever of getting into Smash.

If Sakurai were to intentionally add a 'tech,' first, he'd make sure every controller could perform it. No touch or gyro(pro), and no c-stick or clickable sticks(3DS). Second, it would not add another button, because it'd ruin Smash's signature three button simplicity and the Wiimote can't handle another button. And third, it'd be simple to perform and not have a major effect on the metagame, because Sakurai's style of game making wouldn't allow it and it'd change the core gameplay of SSB otherwise.

 

[Cap'nChreest]

I can't help but feel this thread is pointless. Half of it is Wavedashing discussion, and the other is about made-up techniques that have practically no chance whatsoever of getting into Smash.

If Sakurai were to intentionally add a 'tech,' first, he'd make sure every controller could perform it. No touch or gyro(pro), and no c-stick or clickable sticks(3DS). Second, it would not add another button, because it'd ruin Smash's signature three button simplicity and the Wiimote can't handle another button. And third, it'd be simple to perform and not have a major effect on the metagame, because Sakurai's style of game making wouldn't allow it and it'd change the core gameplay of SSB otherwise.

Sakurai has stated he's focusing on using the Pro controller. Also, I'm pretty sure all techniques purposefully aren't in smash but they are anyways. Most techniques are unintentional like the DACUS or BDACUS.

 

[LancerStaff]

Sakurai has stated he's focusing on using the Pro controller. Also, I'm pretty sure all techniques purposefully aren't in smash but they are anyways. Most techniques are unintentional like the DACUS or BDACUS.

He may be focusing on it, (and I'd like to see a link,) but I doubt he'd abandon all the other controllers. And of course the 3DS has less shoulder buttons too, further limiting options. The topic was about adding a technique, correct? Sakurai wouldn't add any of these for the reasons I mentioned.

 

[StarshipGroove]

cancellable initial run dash, Melee dashdancing, or dash special with double tap as Kumaoso is suggesting (which is a good idea actually)
air dashing, maybe using double tap, or smashing the control stick during airdodge.
No buttons required, simple to perform, can be performed on all control schemes, does not change majorly the metagame AND it's unique to Smash 4.

It's a neat addition like pivot grabs.

 

[LancerStaff]

cancellable initial run dash, Melee dashdancing, or dash special with double tap as Kumaoso is suggesting (which is a good idea actually)
air dashing, maybe using double tap, or smashing the control stick during airdodge.
No buttons required, simple to perform, can be performed on all control schemes, does not change majorly the metagame AND it's unique to Smash 4.

It's a neat addition like pivot grabs.

Well, I suppose those aren't bad. I was mostly talking about the more extreme ideas like a Wavedash button.

 

[DaDavid]

Well, I suppose those aren't bad. I was mostly talking about the more extreme ideas like a Wavedash button.

A "Wavedash button" is the only "extreme" idea that's been suggested here, and honestly that's only been brought up by the people who are at least partially insistent that wavedashing is the only mobility that could or should be added to the game.

Other than that it's been people spit-balling ideas like those that Starship Groove listed.

 

[ryuu seika]

Actually, I mentioned a wavedash button at one point to try and explain to people that a simplified input didn't have to mean a simplified mechanic.
I guess people got a little overexcited by the idea...

 

[Big-Cat]

I can't help but feel this thread is pointless. Half of it is Wavedashing discussion, and the other is about made-up techniques that have practically no chance whatsoever of getting into Smash.

If Sakurai were to intentionally add a 'tech,' first, he'd make sure every controller could perform it. No touch or gyro(pro), and no c-stick or clickable sticks(3DS). Second, it would not add another button, because it'd ruin Smash's signature three button simplicity and the Wiimote can't handle another button. And third, it'd be simple to perform and not have a major effect on the metagame, because Sakurai's style of game making wouldn't allow it and it'd change the core gameplay of SSB otherwise.

Personally, I find myself using at least four when playing Smash.

You know things can change right? If it were to improve the game, I see no reason to avoid adding another button. Do we NEED another button though? Not really though it'd be nice if I could map tilts and smash attacks on separate buttons.

 

[Cap'nChreest]

It looks like short hops strats won't be garbage in this game. At least they didn't used to be.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Where is the momentum from the jump?

: (

 

[Cap'nChreest]

Where is the momentum from the jump?

: (

It looks like he goes backwards while doing it which was possible in melee too but not in brawl I think.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

It looks like he goes backwards while doing it which was possible in melee too but not in brawl I think.

I mean he should have covered more ground than that when he short hopped. I guess it's using the Brawl physics engine, which in many ways is no better than 64's since it didn't have aerial momentum either, but it was still a fairly fun game because of its combos and canceling.

I really hope Sakurai does something about character airspeed a besides just limiting them.

 

[Cap'nChreest]

I mean he should have covered more ground than that when he short hopped. I guess it's using the Brawl physics engine, which in many ways is no better than 64's since it didn't have aerial momentum either, but it was still a fairly fun game because of its combos and canceling.

I really hope Sakurai does something about character airspeed a besides just limiting them.

Yea. Maybe there is no momentum... poo. I think that I was happy about his short-hop being short this time. Brawl short-hops were like not very short. But that was made like 8 months ago. But that was after a year and 3 months development. I don't know how much could've changed but hopefully that has.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Yea. Maybe there is no momentum... poo. I think that I was happy about his short-hop being short this time. Brawl short-hops were like not very short. But that was made like 8 months ago. But that was after a year and 3 months development. I don't know how much could've changed but hopefully that has.

It could have changed, as Sakurai has shown I shown things have changed mid development, but momentum is seemingly unchanged for the most part.

Looking at Sonic do a jump after that reunion is a bit unsettling, but hey, things can change. However, if there is no change after E3 then it is official.

Unless they made the jump similar to street fighter when you gain more distance with a super jump. Maybe something like holding down then hitting jump to do a jump with greater moment, kind of like how in Mario 64 when you run, crouch and jump you do a longer jump. It wouldn't be the first time they introduced Mario-esq mechanics in smash. This would also bring back crouch canceling.