Movement in Smash 4

[Cap'nChreest]

All I want to do is short-hop laser with Falco. At least closer to melee. Brawl's short-hop laser was terrible. ugh... Its like hitting a wall every time you jump. Melee was so fluid in the air. Then if I can short hop laser with falco that means that I can short hop arrow with Pit. Man he's going to be so good in this game.

 

[Zonderion]

It doesn't mean we can't entertain the idea.

That's why I said:

But, to entertain the idea

 

[DaDavid]

I have played KI:U, and I guess it wasn't terrible, but it still felt weird-ish to me. Not a huge issue though.

The first time I saw that roll, I seriously thought they had restored wavedashing. Could Marth instantly roll after landing in Brawl, or is this really a new thing?

It's definitely new. no one can act that quickly out of rolls in anything so far.

 

[Empyrean]

All I want to do is short-hop laser with Falco. At least closer to melee. Brawl's short-hop laser was terrible. ugh... Its like hitting a wall every time you jump. Melee was so fluid in the air. Then if I can short hop laser with falco that means that I can short hop arrow with Pit. Man he's going to be so good in this game.

It's been a long time I haven't played Brawl, so my memory doesn't serve me correctly. What's wrong exactly with short-hop laser in Brawl? I think it was at the very least decent, not to mention that you can cover more options with the SHDL, and silent laser was neat. When I switched from Brawl to Melee Falco, the transition was very fluid and I had no trouble adapting, except obviously the inability to perform double lasers.

 

[Cap'nChreest]

It's been a long time I haven't played Brawl, so my memory doesn't serve me correctly. What's wrong exactly with short-hop laser in Brawl? I think it was at the very least decent, not to mention that you can cover more options with the SHDL, and silent laser was neat. When I switched from Brawl to Melee Falco, the transition was very fluid and I had no trouble adapting, except obviously the inability to perform double lasers.

When you jump in the air and do a short-hop laser with falco or fox you can't cover as much distance. You can't fast fall while doing the laser too. you kinda hop and stop. Also the lasers go above everyones head. Melee's shl was funner to do imo. You had more movement in melees shl. You could mind game with your lasers. In brawl theres not enough freedom of motion in the air. its like skipping(brawl) versus long jumping(melee). I hope you can fast fall while doing a shl in smash 4.

 

[StarshipGroove]

What's the point? The point is so that the input is deliberate and you don't get something as basic as walking or running done by accident. This can easily happen in the heat of the battle. You can say to just work on execution, but you, personally, have to draw the line somewhere.
And Smash may have "introduced" smashing the control stick, that doesn't mean it's a good idea. Remember, just because it's different doesn't mean it's good or bad. It's simply different.

Many gameplay mechanics in Smash Bros already require finesse (or speed) when tilting the stick. See using Smash attacks vs tilts, or Samus super missiles, or tilting the shield vs rolling, shield jumping or spot-dodging or shield platform dropping, running vs walking.
Since it's already an important mechanic, it isn't such a stretch to utilize it further.
If smashing the stick vs tilting for rolls is not deliberate enough, then double tap while shielding would be fine.

 

[Empyrean]

I would rather double tap not be used for any technique. It could easily lead into more errors than tilting imo. Specially for a technique requiring as much finesse as wavedashing and such.

 

[Big-Cat]

Many gameplay mechanics in Smash Bros already require finesse (or speed) when tilting the stick. See using Smash attacks vs tilts, or Samus super missiles, or tilting the shield vs rolling, shield jumping or spot-dodging or shield platform dropping, running vs walking.
Since it's already an important mechanic, it isn't such a stretch to utilize it further.
If smashing the stick vs tilting for rolls is not deliberate enough, then double tap while shielding would be fine.

Again, just because it's in the game and is different doesn't mean it's really a good idea, or a bad idea for that matter. For me, it's difficult to do the distinction between tilting and smashing the control stick.

A lot of what you mentioned could probably be done by replacing smashing the stick with double taps. Would it be different from what we've been used to for fifteen years? Yes, but I think it could be done.

For a second there, I thought of what it'd be like to have Smash attacks done as double tap+A, but then I realized this wouldn't work for a number of reasons. Though I think it would be very nice if I at least had the option to separate tilts and smash attacks by two buttons.

I would rather double tap not be used for any technique. It could easily lead into more errors than tilting imo. Specially for a technique requiring as much finesse as wavedashing and such.

Explain how it would lead to more errors.

 

[Empyrean]

@ Big-Cat From my experience with dashing with the Wiimote, I have had a lot of trouble maneuvering out of dashes, reacting accordingly to my opponent, even flat-out failing to dash sometimes. I'm afraid I can't give you more concrete examples as I haven't touched the Wiimote in 3 years. Also, double-tapping takes slightly more time than smash-tapping or tilting, which could cost you in the heat of battle. Then again, it was the Wiimote, and we all know how horrible that thing is, and I've only used double-tap for dashing. I could change my mind if I see it being mapped to a different command.

 

[Cap'nChreest]

I don't think KI:U used double tapping. I was just playing it yesterday. Your speed depends on how quickly you move the circle pad to the edge. If you do it quickly then it just goes into a run. if you go to the edge slowly it would walk. I don't see them making double tap running.

 

[Terrazi Terrajin]

Movement...

I've always wanted to be able to drop from a platform while laying down on it. This was possible in playstation all stars and was actually really nifty as an option.
Same with being able to pass through platforms while performing air attacks just by holding down.

 

[Big-Cat]

@ Big-Cat From my experience with dashing with the Wiimote, I have had a lot of trouble maneuvering out of dashes, reacting accordingly to my opponent, even flat-out failing to dash sometimes. I'm afraid I can't give you more concrete examples as I haven't touched the Wiimote in 3 years. Also, double-tapping takes slightly more time than smash-tapping or tilting, which could cost you in the heat of battle. Then again, it was the Wiimote, and we all know how horrible that thing is, and I've only used double-tap for dashing. I could change my mind if I see it being mapped to a different command.

Here's the thing though. You were used to analog inputs for over ten years with Smash. Suddenly switching makes it a lot harder to do things. I had the same trouble when I switched to arcade sticks, but I ended up all the better in my execution because of it. That being said, it's easier with some kind of stick, analog or arcade, to do double taps than it is to do a double press for some reason.

 

[StarshipGroove]

This is another thinly veiled "why cant I use the arcade stik for smash bros????" KumaOso thread isn't it

 

[Big-Cat]

I've never suggested once in this thread the use of arcade sticks.

Would you rather see more threads whining and petitioning for GC controllers for Smash 4?

 

[DaDavid]

I don't think KI:U used double tapping. I was just playing it yesterday. Your speed depends on how quickly you move the circle pad to the edge. If you do it quickly then it just goes into a run. if you go to the edge slowly it would walk. I don't see them making double tap running.

Double tap wouldn't be to run, it'd be for quick dashes in one direction or another.

Maybe my memory is failing me, but I'm pretty sure double tapping in KI:U is used for dodges and rolls no?

 

[Ulti-Bman]

I just want the game to be smooth and natural, like in the Little Mac trailer. Not antigravity slow like in Brawl, not weirdly fast like in Melee. Something that feels "plausible", I guess. I don't think wavedashing (or any function similar to it) is even worth it. Why characters even need an extra boost in speed beyond their regular dash is alien to me, but that's just my opinion. Wavedashing did add extra options, but it's not natural in my eyes and feels completely unnecessary. Even if Sakurai booted it to something common, like a roll, I don't see it's purpose. If you ask me, Sakurai gave characters individual speeds for a reason.

 

[Cap'nChreest]

Double tap wouldn't be to run, it'd be for quick dashes in one direction or another.

Maybe my memory is failing me, but I'm pretty sure double tapping in KI:U is used for dodges and rolls no?

Oh for quick dashes then that'd be cool. The dodges and rolls worked like metroid other m. If an attack was coming and you tapped once then it would dodge.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

I just want the game to be smooth and natural, like in the Little Mac trailer. Not antigravity slow like in Brawl, not weirdly fast like in Melee. Something that feels "plausible", I guess. I don't think wavedashing (or any function similar to it) is even worth it. Why characters even need an extra boost in speed beyond their regular dash is alien to me, but that's just my opinion. Wavedashing did add extra options, but it's not natural in my eyes and feels completely unnecessary. Even if Sakurai booted it to something common, like a roll, I don't see it's purpose. If you ask me, Sakurai gave characters individual speeds for a reason.

We aren't implying that characters need extra speed, but more options for mobility than the convention techniques layer out for us in game, so that characters have more options to space, make reads and make mix-ups. Even though we didn't have wavelanding in Melee, Brawl at least had platform canceling on stages like Smashville and Lylat that acted as a pseudo wave so characters were able to punish missed techs on platforms or do platform dropping mix ups. While timing was different for each character it benefit everyone the same, and I'm sure most players are welcome to something similar to compensate for the lack of wavelanding.

As far as an input would work for example, platform canceling was done in Brawl by hitting down on the stick when your character was at just the right point, holding shield+down, or using a down aerial attack at the right time when you jump on the platform. Since the input is familiar, maybe you should have to hold the jump button+hold down on the joystick mid-jump to do it, since it there is no particular need to hold the jump button and it would avoid doing it accidentally since the holds of you holding both are minimal.

And with the flow of the game it would still feel very organic, especially given the new ledge mechanics when a player can simply be "popped off" for no apparent reason, visually that is.

 

[Big-Cat]

I just want the game to be smooth and natural, like in the Little Mac trailer. Not antigravity slow like in Brawl, not weirdly fast like in Melee. Something that feels "plausible", I guess. I don't think wavedashing (or any function similar to it) is even worth it. Why characters even need an extra boost in speed beyond their regular dash is alien to me, but that's just my opinion. Wavedashing did add extra options, but it's not natural in my eyes and feels completely unnecessary. Even if Sakurai booted it to something common, like a roll, I don't see it's purpose. If you ask me, Sakurai gave characters individual speeds for a reason.

This is more about exploring mobility options. For example, including a burst of movement forward or backward would help with the likes of spacing, tech chasing/okizeme, etc. without needing running in certain scenarios. This was the thing that makes wavedashing what it is in terms of practicality.

Then there's the possibility of air dashes which could do a lot of changes in a game like Smash.

 

[smashbro29]

They just need to speed up the game overall (done), bring back momentum, reduce aerial landing lag by default and make rolling quicker and maybe even a bit safer.

Also landing on your knees, making the game feel more fluid in general and better DI options.

I have high hopes this time around.

 

[Ulti-Bman]

We aren't implying that characters need extra speed, but more options for mobility than the convention techniques layer out for us in game, so that characters have more options to space, make reads and make mix-ups. Even though we didn't have wavelanding in Melee, Brawl at least had platform canceling on stages like Smashville and Lylat that acted as a pseudo wave so characters were able to punish missed techs on platforms or do platform dropping mix ups. While timing was different for each character it benefit everyone the same, and I'm sure most players are welcome to something similar to compensate for the lack of wavelanding.

As far as an input would work for example, platform canceling was done in Brawl by hitting down on the stick when your character was at just the right point, holding shield+down, or using a down aerial attack at the right time when you jump on the platform. Since the input is familiar, maybe you should have to hold the jump button+hold down on the joystick mid-jump to do it, since it there is no particular need to hold the jump button and it would avoid doing it accidentally since the holds of you holding both are minimal.

And with the flow of the game it would still feel very organic, especially given the new ledge mechanics when a player can simply be "popped off" for no apparent reason, visually that is.

I'm aware it would help with spacing, I just personally feel that spacing doesn't need anymore addition options other than the roll and dash. I see how wavedashing is beneficial, it just think it expands an aspect of gameplay that works just fine as it is. As opposed to ledge mechanics, which needed a drastic overhaul due to how the old mechanics lead to cheap deaths and camping.

 

[DaDavid]

I agree that a tweaked enough rolls would be all I need to feel like we have decent spacing options, I just wouldn't be opposed to the addition of a quick little dashes.

 

[1MachGO]

I don't want to be an instigator, but there is a somewhat hypocritical vibe in this thread. Do people actually dislike wavedashing or do they dislike the input of wavedashing? Many of the suggestions just seem like other forms of "sliding" or "burst movement" with easier inputs so I'm keen to believe its actually the latter.

TBH, wavedashing adds more to this game movement wise than anything else conceived in this thread because it can be used for airborne and grounded situations. Wavelanding, for instance, can be used to quickly land on platforms and transition immediately back to land movement. It fills a void between the spheres of air movement and ground movement; vastly improving the flow of the game. Adding some kind of mechanic that is strictly ground-based would honestly be settling when we know these games are capable of much more.

Also, why is wavedashing "unnatural"? Frankly, the line between natural and unnatural shouldn't be drawn. Calling wavedashing unnatural is like calling double jumping unnatural. The way mechanics should be judged is in how they benefit the game; not subjective argument.

 

[D-idara]

I don't want to be an instigator, but there is a somewhat hypocritical vibe in this thread. Do people actually dislike wavedashing or do they dislike the input of wavedashing? Many of the suggestions just seem like other forms of "sliding" or "burst movement" with easier inputs so I'm keen to believe its actually the latter.

TBH, wavedashing adds more to this game movement wise than anything else conceived in this thread because it can be used for airborne and grounded situations. Wavelanding, for instance, can be used to quickly land on platforms and transition immediately back to land movement. It fills a void between the spheres of air movement and ground movement; vastly improving the flow of the game. Adding some kind of mechanic that is strictly ground-based would honestly be settling when we know these games are capable of much more.

Also, why is wavedashing "unnatural"? Frankly, the line between natural and unnatural shouldn't be drawn. Calling wavedashing unnatural is like calling double jumping unnatural. The way mechanics should be judged is in how they benefit the game; not subjective argument.

Actually, no one, not even me feels hate againist the output of wavedashing, it's actually very nice and adds a lot to the game, the problem with wavedash is the ridiculous input that could be easily simplified.

 

[ryuu seika]

I argue with wavedashing primarily on the grounds that it's physics abuse. The air dodge was not designed for burst movement across ground like that and it's taking advantage of a flaw in the design of an otherwise brilliant game to completely change its play.
The fact that it adds unnecessary technical barriers to anyone wishing to get into the competitive scene is only adding insult to injury.

Now lets look at my suggestion of back/towardsteps:
+You get roughly 1.5 character widths of movement, hopping over any ground based traps.
+You can attack out of it easily and quickly.
+It provides a way to easily pass through opponents.
+It adds a form of escape possible out of shield and a quick backward movement otherwise non-present.
-The ending lag, while cancellable into attacks, prevents further quick movement, including repetition of this action.
-The player is not invincible like in rolls, meaning escapes can still be gimped (try using projectiles) and approaches and pass-throughs are still risky if predicted.
-Cannot be faked as a mixup like WDs.

 

[BridgesWithTurtles]

Since Smash Bros. is a platform fighting game, movement options around platforms are one my own main concerns. Melee's wavelanding, for how simple it is, is one of the most transformative mechanics in the series thus far, as it revolutionizes the way in which characters interact with and make use of platforms. Maneuverability around platforms is a key component of what makes Melee so fast, and contributes to the deep mix-ups, techs, reads, punishes, and gimps that typify its gameplay. Brawl lacks a universal mechanic for making use of platforms as much other than something to stand on, which makes stage platform layout less influential, in my experience, than in Melee, and that's something that I really hope these upcoming games change. While I don't see anything similar to wavelanding making its way into the series again, I'd like to see some sort of mechanic that makes platform interaction more varied.

 

[ryuu seika]

To that end, I would quite like to see directional air dodges return. How they could plausibly limit their wavedashing ability without destroying other functionality I do not know though.

 

[DaDavid]

Eh, directional air-dodges are probable one of the things I miss least. 'course if it was just an option in addition to the Brawl air-dodges, I can't say I'd be against them.

 

[FlareHabanero]

walking backwards should be a mechanic some way or how

I'm dead serious.

Technically that already happened with the Moonwalk glitch.

 

[Big-Cat]

Eh, directional air-dodges are probable one of the things I miss least. 'course if it was just an option in addition to the Brawl air-dodges, I can't say I'd be against them.

I'm wondering why not replace directional air dodges with back or forward air dashes.

 

[DaDavid]

I'm wondering why not replace directional air dodges with back or forward air dashes.

I'd be on board with that. I mean my gripe (if you can call it that, it's really just indifference) with directional air-dodges is that in my experience they are essentially useless as a defensive, or dodging, action. Making airdodge+direction do an air dash, and not a dodge, would be interesting...

 

[Monkley6]

Since the input is familiar, maybe you should have to hold the jump button+hold down on the joystick mid-jump to do it, since it there is no particular need to hold the jump button and it would avoid doing it accidentally since the holds of you holding both are minimal.

Do you mean like floating for Peach? Honestly, I've always loved Peach's unique ability to control her jump height, in a sense. While I can't really say I'm a Peach player, part of me wants to play her just for that. lol
I think I like the idea of air dashes too, but hell, anything that allows more free movement is good. Whether it be less lag in an initial dash, or some fancy new technique that lets you slide on your face short distances.

 

[Dr. James Rustles]

I really wish all the wavedashing discussion would move to some other forum and never return. Whether or not that you like it, think that it was intentional (they were perfectly aware of it during development), or that it was good for the game are all irrelevant. Smash 4 will not have wavedashing. There is no point in even discussing it: The mechanics that enable wavedashing do not even exist in Smash 4. When the game comes out, it's not going to be an issue. Only so much can be said about a mechanic that doesn't exist.

If there is going to be a new mobility option, accept that fact that it will probably run in the face of the "simple controls" philosophy. I think there's too much neglect about the fact that the simple controls have not stopped the interactivity from becoming as complex as many other games. I think most people who haven't realized this also haven't transitioned out of the button-mashing phase.

Breaking it down, I'm guessing they're used to the low-effort high-reward stereotype that Smash is and find the greater effort of advanced techniques not getting that same effort-to-reward ratio that the former way that they used to play has. The simple truth is that it's probably not going to be as rewarding as the basic controls but if you're going to make a value judgement on a mechanic based on the effort it takes to pull it off, you need to realize you're talking about techniques that by and large are moderately easy to pull off, just not in comparison to the basic controls, and that you need to set the bar higher for yourself. This isn't to invite slippery slopes for things like "Why not make the game Super QWOP Bros. 4?" but too many people are making this out to be a bigger ordeal than it is.

Given the context I think it's inherently conflicting to be against these kinds of things in the first place: If you're discussing these mechanics, you're probably wanting to get better at the game, but yet you're against some things that require self-mastery. In advanced play, you're going to be playing at a pace that make the simple controls require just as much attention and "complexity" of input as the advanced techniques themselves. Your APM in a high-level game without advanced techniques wouldn't be much different, just that the input would be less intuitive.

Devising a new universal mobility option is pretty hard. I don't think air dashes are the way. Ike already has something like air dash built into his moveset. Someone suggested removing invincibility from rolls and extending their travel distance, but that's actually removing options from the game by replacing something that gives opportunistic maneuverability with something that straight-up outclasses dashing. I think people are looking too hard at universal character mechanics and should instead be looking at new character specific movement options. There's no reason Samus or Link shouldn't have the speed-boost mechanic or that Mewtwo shouldn't have an abusable teleport, for example.

 

[DaDavid]

Well out of all that up there I did manage to see the point of the final paragraph, and I do agree that one of the most interesting things they could do is implement character specific mobility options that support characters weaknesses and are unique to them.

 

[J1NG]

Well out of all that up there I did manage to see the point of the final paragraph, and I do agree that one of the most interesting things they could do is implement character specific mobility options that support characters weaknesses and are unique to them.

I am all in favor of some characters being more mobile than others. Characters that are not mobile usually tend to be slow overall, and I think that slow characters should be embraced for the style that they are supposed to represent instead of being abandoned due to the fact that "slow isn't as competitively viable as fast". There are other ways to make "slow" characters fun and effective.
For all its virtues, this is the thing that I don't like about Project M. They just increased Melee's game speed, thinking "Melee was a fast game, and Melee was a good game, so let's make Project M faster than Melee, which will in turn make Project M better than Melee". It wasn't a horrible move by any means. I mean, I know there are tons of people who just wanted a faster Smash however they could get it. But increasing the overall game speed was definitely not the ideal move, or the only way you can make a game seem "faster". This is especially true if you start to consider pacing as an entertainment factor, i.e. having "Brawl" moments of speed and "Melee" moments of speed in the same game.
Take a look at Ike for example. I feel like the mindset for his Project M changes was "Ike is a slow character, which means that he needs mobility, so lets allow him to cancel his side-B" because high mobility has become such a standard for viability in Melee. Simply giving the positive assets of a viable character to another character who isn't as viable is not always the best design choice. Yes, the changes to Ike's side B made him more viable. Yes, Ike is by no means a clone of another mobile character. But still, I think Ike could have benefited greatly from another mechanic that would have synergy with his role as a heavy sword character.
I hope I've made my point clear enough. Admittedly, I haven't thought about every little aspect of the point I'm trying to make, but I think I can TLDR it for you:
Having fast and slow characters is good because diversity is good in the long run(not to say that a game can't be all speed and still survive for years). So, I am more in favor of giving characters unique and thematic mechanics as opposed to universal mobility options.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

^This and what Quilt said, however, if there are universal mobility options, they shouldn't be so radical as to shift the paradigm of the character in question; something that essentially gives all characters to react in a certain scenario, but it will be difficult, as being able to do everything with one character minimizes the emphasis on a characters strengths and weaknesses and becomes a "jack of all trades" so to speak--excelling at nothing, or in the worst case everything (I.E. Meta Knight).

I'm really curious as to see what they could implement for individual character mobility. However I feel like I'm the only one who would love to see Mario do an Electric Wind God Fist. Lol.

 

[J1NG]

^This and what Quilt said, however, if there are universal mobility options, they shouldn't be so radical as to shift the paradigm of the character in question

That's true. I think Directional Influence is an excellent example of what you're talking about.
But yeah, increased mobility does not have to be the copy paste solution for characters who are at a loss against other characters with more mobility than themselves.
I don't think this would be a good fit for Smash, but I always wanted to see a fighting game utilize a sort of stamina meter like what Marvel Nemesis: Rise of the Imperfects did. This would create the kind of pacing that I mentioned in my previous post, where some moments would be high speed if you have the stamina for it, and other moments would be slower but also more tense and stand-off-ish(it doesn't have to be that black and white, I'm just trying to get my idea across).
If there is such a game besides Marvel Nemesis, I would certainly like to know about it.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

That's true. I think Directional Influence is an excellent example of what you're talking about.
But yeah, increased mobility does not have to be the copy paste solution for characters who are at a loss against other characters with more mobility than themselves.
I don't think this would be a good fit for Smash, but I always wanted to see a fighting game utilize a sort of stamina meter like what Marvel Nemesis: Rise of the Imperfects did. This would create the kind of pacing that I mentioned in my previous post, where some moments would be high speed if you have the stamina for it, and other moments would be slower but also more tense and stand-off-ish(it doesn't have to be that black and white, I'm just trying to get my idea across).
If there is such a game besides Marvel Nemesis, I would certainly like to know about it.

Yes definitely. Also , implementing some method of stamina wouldn't be to difficult, as it has been done through the use of prevents in the series.

I'll talk more about this another day, as of now I'm tired as ****, and my eyes are lower than a bow legg'd caterpillar. Peace.

 

[guedes the brawler]

Don't even imply that you're considering the possibility of thinking about that. It's an insult to real Smash fans when people claim that they want to 'fix' SSB4.

no smash game, past, present or fan-made, will ever be perfect, kid.

The problem that wavedash has as a mechanic is that it wasn't balanced. Some characters barely made use of it (Peach, jiggs) while others actually used that over dashing or walking (Luigi)... and the game wasn't made with that option in mind.

If something like Wavedashing returns, it ought to be more universal in terms of distance achieved. maybe there should be differences but they can't be too big

 

[Monkley6]

I must say, I like the ideas and thinking going on here, and mostly or entirely agree with Eternal phoenix fire, Quilt and J1NG. Keep the ideas and brainstorming coming fellas.