Movement in Smash 4

[Muster]

For all its virtues, this is the thing that I don't like about Project M. They just increased Melee's game speed, thinking "Melee was a fast game, and Melee was a good game, so let's make Project M faster than Melee, which will in turn make Project M better than Melee". It wasn't a horrible move by any means. I mean, I know there are tons of people who just wanted a faster Smash however they could get it. But increasing the overall game speed was definitely not the ideal move, or the only way you can make a game seem "faster". This is especially true if you start to consider pacing as an entertainment factor, i.e. having "Brawl" moments of speed and "Melee" moments of speed in the same game.

How is Project M faster than melee? I've only heard complaints that it's slower, due to things like 1 frame input lag and the viability of more "floaty" characters slowing down more matches as a whole.

 

[DaDavid]

@ J1NG

That's a lot like what I feel about the situation. It seems like characters can't really have enough going for them if their speed isn't one of the things on that list. But simply giving them more speed can't be the only way to make those characters more viable, because then you take away what made their playstyle unique in the first place. Likewise a universal new mobility option would sort of, unless implemented very very carefully, only serve to widen this gap as I'm sure character who were already faster and more mobile now have another option that really probably helps them just as much if not more than other already less mobile characters.

That's not to say a universal mobility option along the lines of wavedashing (minus the twitchy input) couldn't work, but I would find it more interesting for the devs to work on giving unique character specific mobility options to characters who more desperately need them, while still tweaking the mobility options already in place such as rolls, which of course they seem to have changed a bit already.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

I argue with wavedashing primarily on the grounds that it's physics abuse. The air dodge was not designed for burst movement across ground like that and it's taking advantage of a flaw in the design of an otherwise brilliant game to completely change its play.
The fact that it adds unnecessary technical barriers to anyone wishing to get into the competitive scene is only adding insult to injury.

Now lets look at my suggestion of back/towardsteps:
+You get roughly 1.5 character widths of movement, hopping over any ground based traps.
+You can attack out of it easily and quickly.
+It provides a way to easily pass through opponents.
+It adds a form of escape possible out of shield and a quick backward movement otherwise non-present.
-The ending lag, while cancellable into attacks, prevents further quick movement, including repetition of this action.
-The player is not invincible like in rolls, meaning escapes can still be gimped (try using projectiles) and approaches and pass-throughs are still risky if predicted.
-Cannot be faked as a mixup like WDs.

I'm sorry but I have to disagree with this sentiment in its entirety.

Whether or not something is detrimental to the game shouldn't be judged by arbitrary means as the poster above you stated. The motion in its self is merely a combination of the output of momentum of the physics engine and a characters individual friction. While it did not have as great of effect with characters of lower friction, it still gave players the opportunity to land on platforms and waveland off of the edge of platforms to mix up aerial approach.

I don't really see the wavedash as an "unnecessary technical barrier" (A phrase popular around here as of late) In all honestly, no tech skill is necessary to compete, but given in a competitive situation where the next player will always know something the other doesn't the knowledge becomes common place. But, knowing this tech skill isn't the same as applying it.

This community plight for minimizing tech skill barriers is a plight of the inexperienced; the ease of use of a technical input, no matter how simple, will fall short if the player is inexperienced with applying the knowledge against a living breathing opponent or becomes nervous in general. Even if I practiced my combo set up in a corner for hours, the one opportunity I get to execute it presents itself and I drop it. Why? It could be that in practice I was able to anticipate the execution by constantly being aware that the opponent was going to take it. In the middle of a pressure situation landing that fancy combo becomes the lowest priority when you're just trying to do enough damage to keep the opponent pinned into a situation when it's advantageous for you. In my opinion, players who believe that minimizing tech skill will be beneficial are those who are unable to differentiate the value of a combo being done mid match and a combo video. Something like the Daigo Full parry on Justin Wong's Chun-Li is something that did not occur through simple practice; it was skill, reflexes and determination. The input for a parry is simple; tap forward, but the application is incredibly difficult.

I'm all for simplification of performing techniques as long as they are in align with the flow of the games natural inputs, but that would be difficult, and character specific options are the next way to go, however, no matter his simple something is to do it won't guarantee that you will be consistent in execution. If this was true Fox players in Melee would indefinitely drill shine every character to death and Magneto would ROM infinite every character the instant they came into play.

Also, I honestly feel like characters retaining aerial momentum and having solid airspeed is much more important than most movement techs.

 

[ryuu seika]

<some long post with no specific quote points>

Your post seems to be self-contradictory.
You try to explain that needlessly complex inputs aren't an issue because the implementation is more important than the ability. Surely implementation being the important aspect is a reason for the simplification of the input, not a reason against?

Assuming you could press a button and instantly wavedash in whatever way your control stick was pointing, would that make the action any less thought requiring? No. All it would do is remove the initial practice time and let new players start learning implementation from day one.
True, they're not going to crack and fail the action under pressure anymore but the potential for screw-ups doesn't have to be at the input level. Again, implementation is more important.

I am not, by any means, trying to say that the game should be less complex on an implementation level. All I am saying that the input level should be as simple as possible so that players can get straight into the good bit.
From what you are saying, you sound like you should be in favour of the input simplification movement...

 

[1MachGO]

Actually, no one, not even me feels hate againist the output of wavedashing, it's actually very nice and adds a lot to the game, the problem with wavedash is the ridiculous input that could be easily simplified.

A two button input combined with a linear direction? How is this confounding, exactly? If you think a WD input adds arbitrary difficulty, then you should consider their implications. The input is exactly what allows both wavedashing and wavelanding to occur. You could simplify wavedashing by having it be a "wavedash button", but can you really simplify wavelands any more than their current iteration? Probably not. You'd ultimately have to leave wavedashing as it is presently in the game, which would be redundant alongside a "wavedash button". Now you have to account for the balancing of this simultaneous existence; ironically complicating the game more than it is.

Also, the amount of depth allowed by the input for wavedashing/wavelanding isn't given enough credit. There is a direct correlation between the angle of input and distance of the wavedash/waveland. It would be a degree of control that would be sorely missed if the input was simplified anymore than it already is.

 

[J1NG]

How is Project M faster than melee? I've only heard complaints that it's slower, due to things like 1 frame input lag and the viability of more "floaty" characters slowing down more matches as a whole.

Well that is true, especially with characters like Mario and Mewtwo. I am referring to the literal increase in how fast the game runs/plays; if I'm not mistaken, it was one of the early/earliest changes made to the game.

 

[Fuqua]

Your post seems to be self-contradictory.
You try to explain that needlessly complex inputs aren't an issue because the implementation is more important than the ability. Surely implementation being the important aspect is a reason for the simplification of the input, not a reason against?

Assuming you could press a button and instantly wavedash in whatever way your control stick was pointing, would that make the action any less thought requiring? No. All it would do is remove the initial practice time and let new players start learning implementation from day one.
True, they're not going to crack and fail the action under pressure anymore but the potential for screw-ups doesn't have to be at the input level. Again, implementation is more important.

I am not, by any means, trying to say that the game should be less complex on an implementation level. All I am saying that the input level should be as simple as possible so that players can get straight into the good bit.
From what you are saying, you sound like you should be in favour of the input simplification movement...

I THINK what Eternal phoenix Fire was trying to say is that, no matter how simple you make the input for wavedashing, using it successfully in battle will always be X times more difficult than merely executing it in training mode (please correct me if im wrong Eternal phoenix Fire). That is true for the way you execute wavedashes now and it is even truer for how you suggest doing them. Therefore the question raises, whether simplifying its input is gonna do anything at all.

Yes, you will be able to wavedash consistently without practicing them what so ever. No, you won’t be able to make use of them in battle unless you practice them A LOT. If people aren’t willing to learn the current input for wavedashing, why would they be willing to learn to make use of them which is even more difficult?

So I believe, we will have the exact same situation. People who are unwilling to put serious time into the game will find some new BS reason why wavedashing is stupid and it’s gonna go on from there.

What some people need to realise is that no matter how accessible you're gonna make this game, if you want to get good at it, at some point you're gonna have to do some stuff that just doesn't sound particularly fun. If you want to get competitive you will have to look at frame data, learn match ups, watch your matches and find weaknesses in your play, watch youtube videos and analyze them and more **** like that. The guy who does this kinda stuff will always be better than the one who doesn't. So this idea that somehow, by making wavedashes easier to execute your gonna instantly become a pro and do all this cool stuff you see on youtube, is nothing but an illusion.

 

[Muster]

Well that is true, especially with characters like Mario and Mewtwo. I am referring to the literal increase in how fast the game runs/plays; if I'm not mistaken, it was one of the early/earliest changes made to the game.

I was not aware of this, I was operating under the pretense that the engine was doing its best to clone melee's 1:1

 

[J1NG]

I was not aware of this, I was operating under the pretense that the engine was doing its best to clone melee's 1:1

Hmm...
I could be mistaken... After all, the "speed increase" I'm thinking of could have been referring to the increase of speed from Brawl to Melee-type physics. But that's weird. I mean, some of the combo's I used in Melee felt different in Project M, as if my execution was off.
So, this is the same speed as Melee?

Spoiler

If so, then I'll be damned.

 

[DaDavid]

Gotta say that in those two videos, Project M seemed to be faster, but that seemed to me to be more about game pace as opposed to game speed.

 

[ryuu seika]

So this idea that somehow, by making wavedashes easier to execute your gonna instantly become a pro and do all this cool stuff you see on youtube, is nothing but an illusion.

I tried to say this myself but edited it out due to not fitting nicely into my post.

Simple execution means everyone can do everything. It means everyone can perform all the actions.
It does not let everyone be an instant pro. That's a stupid idea and, if anyone actually believes that, they're as dumb as it is.
What it does mean, however, is that the focus shifts from learning how to perform an action to learning how to use it.

When learning how to perform an action, nothing your opponent does has any affect on whether or not what you're doing is correct. It is a single player process and that, as any designer will tell you, is not what gaming is about.

When learning how to use an action, however, theory can give you a quick advantage, making it a great way to improve easily but, when it comes down to it, applying that theory and incorporating your own experiences in real game scenarios is where the real progress is made. Correct implementation is a situational thing that depends as much upon your opponent as it does yourself. It strengthens player interaction and adds gameplay depth.

Obviously, no action is solely about performance learning and wavedashing actually brings a lot of implementation learning to the game. The action does actually have a lot of benefit but here's the problem. It is not intuitive to players and it requires a large amount of performance learning to get to the stage where it becomes beneficial.
If you put too much performance learning into the game, players will give up before they get to the implementation learning. Not because they're lazy but because they simply don't want to play a game with no player interaction which, during that performance learning process, is what Smash is.

My desire to keep inputs simple is not for my benefit directly but rather a desire to have a Smash that the casual player can pick up and find welcoming, even as they progress towards a higher level of play. A desire to have more people drawn in to the tournament ethos, rather than pushed away by mechanics before they even begin.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Your post seems to be self-contradictory.
You try to explain that needlessly complex inputs aren't an issue because the implementation is more important than the ability. Surely implementation being the important aspect is a reason for the simplification of the input, not a reason against?

Assuming you could press a button and instantly wavedash in whatever way your control stick was pointing, would that make the action any less thought requiring? No. All it would do is remove the initial practice time and let new players start learning implementation from day one.
True, they're not going to crack and fail the action under pressure anymore but the potential for screw-ups doesn't have to be at the input level. Again, implementation is more important.

I am not, by any means, trying to say that the game should be less complex on an implementation level. All I am saying that the input level should be as simple as possible so that players can get straight into the good bit.
From what you are saying, you sound like you should be in favour of the input simplification movement...

First and formost, I would appreciate it if you addressed what I'm saying in a respectful manner instead of citing it as "some long post". I'm addressing what you are saying in context , so if you would, please, don't pull that **** with me--alright?

And yes, I am all for simplification, I'm merely dissecting the sentiment that retaining some technical knowledge is arbitrary , especially within the context of smash , when the advanced techniques are merely simple inputs executed at a faster pace. There are undoubtably more benefits to allowing a powerful tool easy execution, but learning a fragment of tech skill means nothing if you are learning tools that you can't even fully comprehend to use.

Let's use your example again, let's say this player is a begginer and he wants you to show him the ropes. You show him that there is a button to wavedash. Let's say he ask what it's for and you elaborate that it's good for spacing and making reads. Well this player isn't familiar with the terminology, so he responds along the lines of " what is spacing?", furthermore the movement in itself is similar to that of a roll, and you could continue to explain how it is easier to punish a roll. Since this player is new and doesn't understand the concept of punishment and lag frames it doesn't fathom to them. It seems far fetched that the player doesn't understand these concepts, but this isn't a fighting game veteran , this is an individual who has for the better part of his smash career beaten his opponents by using all of his jumps with Kirby and using down B.

Giving a player access to a method of movement like the wavedash no matter how simple it is is detrimental to the players learning process, as to the untrained eye there are no benefits from using this instead of simply rolling (I know this because my experience with learning the technique was the same, as well as all of those I had introduced it to). Because the actions to a beginning player are vaguely similar, the player will apply it as such and consistently be punished. Why would he want to learn it if he constantly takes hits? The beginner at least knows that when he rolls his odds of taking damage are minimal, so the incentive to learn the application is gone--a large step backward.

The player should instead emphasize on learning their own methods of punishment, spacing and maximizing a characters efficiency before being introduced to a new method of movement that will undoubtably shake the foundation of his/her gameplay. If you ask me, the potential risks of simplification aren't worth it if it becomes counterintuitive to players. If a player becomes proficient in understanding how he plays the rest will follow, and the thought of finding a series of 2 legitimate actions being difficult will perish.

In the end, I am down for simplification of inputs if only so that when the time comes to cross the bridge into being a competitive player it is beneficial. Until then , expected a lot of inexperienced players to wavedash into falcon punches.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

I THINK what Eternal phoenix Fire was trying to say is that, no matter how simple you make the input for wavedashing, using it successfully in battle will always be X times more difficult than merely executing it in training mode (please correct me if im wrong Eternal phoenix Fire). That is true for the way you execute wavedashes now and it is even truer for how you suggest doing them. Therefore the question raises, whether simplifying its input is gonna do anything at all.

Yes, you will be able to wavedash consistently without practicing them what so ever. No, you won’t be able to make use of them in battle unless you practice them A LOT. If people aren’t willing to learn the current input for wavedashing, why would they be willing to learn to make use of them which is even more difficult?

So I believe, we will have the exact same situation. People who are unwilling to put serious time into the game will find some new BS reason why wavedashing is stupid and it’s gonna go on from there.

What some people need to realise is that no matter how accessible you're gonna make this game, if you want to get good at it, at some point you're gonna have to do some stuff that just doesn't sound particularly fun. If you want to get competitive you will have to look at frame data, learn match ups, watch your matches and find weaknesses in your play, watch youtube videos and analyze them and more **** like that. The guy who does this kinda stuff will always be better than the one who doesn't. So this idea that somehow, by making wavedashes easier to execute your gonna instantly become a pro and do all this cool stuff you see on youtube, is nothing but an illusion.

Just wanted to say yes, you were right about what I said.

 

[Muster]

Hmm...
I could be mistaken... After all, the "speed increase" I'm thinking of could have been referring to the increase of speed from Brawl to Melee-type physics. But that's weird. I mean, some of the combo's I used in Melee felt different in Project M, as if my execution was off.
So, this is the same speed as Melee?

Spoiler

If so, then I'll be damned.

Like Dadavid said, the pace is certainly different, but that does not mean the overall game speed is faster The execution thing could be due to that 1 frame input lag that i mentioned prior, Iirc it was a quirk from brawl that has not yet been fixed. I personally feel like melee is a faster game, at least when using marth. (it feels the same with fox in both versions.)

 

[ryuu seika]

First and formost, I would appreciate it if you addressed what I'm saying in a respectful manner instead of citing it as "some long post". I'm addressing what you are saying in context , so if you would, please, don't pull that **** with me--alright?

Sorry. I'm too used to other forums where the lack of quote compression makes snipping mandatory. No section of your post could be taken out of context and still convey its meaning properly so I just got rid of it all. In hindsight, your reason for taking offense is clear but I never meant any harm.

And yes, I am all for simplification, I'm merely dissecting the sentiment that retaining some technical knowledge is arbitrary , especially within the context of smash , when the advanced techniques are merely simple inputs executed at a faster pace. There are undoubtably more benefits to allowing a powerful tool easy execution, but learning a fragment of tech skill means nothing if you are learning tools that you can't even fully comprehend to use.

Let's use your example again, let's say this player is a begginer and he wants you to show him the ropes. You show him that there is a button to wavedash. Let's say he ask what it's for and you elaborate that it's good for spacing and making reads. Well this player isn't familiar with the terminology, so he responds along the lines of " what is spacing?", furthermore the movement in itself is similar to that of a roll, and you could continue to explain how it is easier to punish a roll. Since this player is new and doesn't understand the concept of punishment and lag frames it doesn't fathom to them.

Ignoring the fact that no button is good for making reads (reads are something that goes on in the head, buttons let you make use of them), your point is a valid one.
I would hope that no player tries to teach in this manner but, even if they don't, a player finding the wavedash button too early would indeed be unhelpful.

It seems far fetched that the player doesn't understand these concepts, but this isn't a fighting game veteran , this is an individual who has for the better part of his smash career beaten his opponents by using all of his jumps with Kirby and using down B.

It doesn't seem farfetched at all, we've all met guys who can't comprehend the concept of recovery and my approach to more traditional fighters is probably just as n00bish.

Giving a player access to a method of movement like the wavedash no matter how simple it is is detrimental to the players learning process, as to the untrained eye there are no benefits from using this instead of simply rolling (I know this because my experience with learning the technique was the same, as well as all of those I had introduced it to). Because the actions to a beginning player are vaguely similar, the player will apply it as such and consistently be punished. Why would he want to learn it if he constantly takes hits? The beginner at least knows that when he rolls his odds of taking damage are minimal, so the incentive to learn the application is gone--a large step backward.

The more I think about this, the more I think you might be right.

The player should instead emphasize on learning their own methods of punishment, spacing and maximizing a characters efficiency before being introduced to a new method of movement that will undoubtably shake the foundation of his/her gameplay.

I have issues with this concept. If something is to totally reshape the game for a player, it does, in a way, make a lot of sense to start with it. Why learn the game twice?

That said, My initial experiences with blocking in fighting games are very much what you describe and, had I been introduced to the idea later, I may actually have become open to it sooner like you suggest.

If you ask me, the potential risks of simplification aren't worth it if it becomes counterintuitive to players. If a player becomes proficient in understanding how he plays the rest will follow, and the thought of finding a series of 2 legitimate actions being difficult will perish.

In the end, I am down for simplification of inputs if only so that when the time comes to cross the bridge into being a competitive player it is beneficial. Until then , expected a lot of inexperienced players to wavedash into falcon punches.

Here's a thought: C-stick wavedashing, or something similar inputwise. If players have access to the action only in multiplayer, they're a lot less likely to approach it before they're ready. Limitation of access without complication.
It would, in a roundabout way, give advantage to the player who owns the game though as they'd have the prior experience with story mode and not be thrown straight into multiplayer.

Finally, I would like to add that it may only be two quicker basic inputs but the timing is highly precise and does take a lot more practice to get down than even a frame perfect Kirbycide cancel in my experience.

 

[Empyrean]

Hmm...
I could be mistaken... After all, the "speed increase" I'm thinking of could have been referring to the increase of speed from Brawl to Melee-type physics. But that's weird. I mean, some of the combo's I used in Melee felt different in Project M, as if my execution was off.
So, this is the same speed as Melee?

Spoiler

If so, then I'll be damned.

Like Muster said, there are a few timings that are still off, so some of the combos you can do in Melee will have slightly different timings in PM. Melee Fox mains always go on about how they can't do the same stuff in PM, so you are not the only one. It's one of the issues the PMBR is looking to fix. The speed of the two games should otherwise be exactly the same.

 

[Big-Cat]

Keep an eye on the topic guys. Keep the Project M topic somewhere else. Also, a lot of these posts really could be cut down to four six sentences instead of a one page essay.

In the end, I am down for simplification of inputs if only so that when the time comes to cross the bridge into being a competitive player it is beneficial. Until then , expected a lot of inexperienced players to wavedash into falcon punches.

A lot of inexperienced players are going to run into Falcon Punches or block Marth's Shield Breaker. While I get the idea of learning how to do certain things before learning more difficult things, not everyone learns the same way and execution barriers are not the best skill gates.

If someone keeps losing because they'd rather wavedash, they need to figure out when and not when to use it. It's as simple as that. You can say they need to practice the basics more, but leave that to the player to figure that out.

 

[RODO]

Wavedash is all I keep seeing. Dash dancing is much more important imo and I want that to make a comeback.

 

[Empyrean]

Afaik, the only thing that held dash dancing back in Brawl was tripping, since it punishes players who try to do it. And agreed, people always downplay the importance of dash dancing. I would love to see it return more so than many other technique.

 

[D-idara]

I THINK what Eternal phoenix Fire was trying to say is that, no matter how simple you make the input for wavedashing, using it successfully in battle will always be X times more difficult than merely executing it in training mode (please correct me if im wrong Eternal phoenix Fire). That is true for the way you execute wavedashes now and it is even truer for how you suggest doing them. Therefore the question raises, whether simplifying its input is gonna do anything at all.

Yes, you will be able to wavedash consistently without practicing them what so ever. No, you won’t be able to make use of them in battle unless you practice them A LOT. If people aren’t willing to learn the current input for wavedashing, why would they be willing to learn to make use of them which is even more difficult?

So I believe, we will have the exact same situation. People who are unwilling to put serious time into the game will find some new BS reason why wavedashing is stupid and it’s gonna go on from there.

What some people need to realise is that no matter how accessible you're gonna make this game, if you want to get good at it, at some point you're gonna have to do some stuff that just doesn't sound particularly fun. If you want to get competitive you will have to look at frame data, learn match ups, watch your matches and find weaknesses in your play, watch youtube videos and analyze them and more **** like that. The guy who does this kinda stuff will always be better than the one who doesn't. So this idea that somehow, by making wavedashes easier to execute your gonna instantly become a pro and do all this cool stuff you see on youtube, is nothing but an illusion.

No one believes this, we just want Sakurai to cut the useless part of the process.

 

[Spazzy_D]

This might be my favorite Smash 4 topic. Great thread, there is only so long you can argue if character X has a greater chance then character Y to be in the game. It's funny to see how different opinions are on wave dashing. I actually don't have too much of a problem with the input. but I think it clashes too much with the general design philosophy behind the game. It just seems very out of place to me.

 

[Empyrean]

The input being useless or useful is subjective and depends on the technique. There are people who think that rolling of all things is complicated (yes, I'm not lying). Should the input be changed as a result? A technique such as wavedashing, if it returns, is bound to have a more "complicated" input if they decide to use airdodging for it. However, seeing as the Wii U has and additional Z button, they could be able to map some tech there. Now I highly doubt that they would be willing to add such a technique, but you never know. As for l-cancelling, it is not out of the realm of possibility that some sort of lag reduction is implemented once again, whether requiring an input or not, seeing as such a feature has been present for 2 out of 3 games.

 

[Spazzy_D]

It's not about it being complicated, it's about it feeling natural to the game....if that makes sense.

 

[DaDavid]

It's not about it being complicated, it's about it feeling natural to the game....if that makes sense.

I think I get your point. The entire premise behind Smash is that it's easy to pick up and play, and even given an example of people who think rolling is a complicated input, the fact is it feels entirely in line with what's happening. "I'm shielding but now I wanna get away in a direction." Wavedashing is a little harder in translation to the input it requires. "I wanna jump, no wait, jk, not actually jumping just wanna slip and slide either away or towards the guy."

 

[Spazzy_D]

I think I get your point. The entire premise behind Smash is that it's easy to pick up and play, and even given an example of people who think rolling is a complicated input, the fact is it feels entirely in line with what's happening. "I'm shielding but now I wanna get away in a direction." Wavedashing is a little harder in translation to the input it requires. "I wanna jump, no wait, jk, not actually jumping just wanna slip and slide either away or towards the guy."

Exactly! I was 10 when Street Fighter II came out for the SNES, and the controls were a little hard to grasp at first. Using a joystick, the hadouken was pretty natural to do... the dragon punch not so much. Since the dragon punch motion was more complicated it took me a weeks or so of practice to get it perfect, however it always felt natural in the game engine. At no point did I think "this move doesn't belong" because it was an extension of other techniques (joystick movement and button press) that I had already done in the game. Wave dashing feels counter intuitive to how you play Smash. Most Smash techniques should be easy to execute, it's how you execute them that makes you a good player.

 

[DaDavid]

Exactly! I was 10 when Street Fighter II came out for the SNES, and the controls were a little hard to grasp at first. Using a joystick, the hadouken was pretty natural to do... the dragon punch no so much. Since the dragon punch motion was more complicated it took me a weeks or so of practice to get it perfect, however it always felt natural in the game engine. At no point did I think "this move doesn't belong" because it was an extension of other techniques (joystick movement and button press) that I had already done in the game. Wave dashing feels counter intuitive to how you play Smash. Most Smash techniques should be easy to execute, it's how you execute them that makes you a good player.

More about practicing how to USE techniques, not how to DO them right? Yeah, I totally agree.

 

[Big-Cat]

In other words, inputs in a game should make kinesthetic sense and feel like it's not out of place (different from saying it belongs).

To bring up double tap for running again, think of it as each tap forward being one foot moved and then the other quickly following, aka a dash or run.

 

[DaDavid]

In other words, inputs in a game should make kinesthetic sense and feel like it's not out of place (different from saying it belongs).

To bring up double tap for running again, think of it as each tap forward being one foot moved and then the other quickly following, aka a dash or run.

Yes to me that makes sense. My own personal kinesthetic reasoning for such an input would be "I want to approach or back away (first tap) but I need to do so with urgency (second, presumably slightly harder tap)"

 

[Empyrean]

I see wavedashing more as "I want to use the momentum of an airdodge to approach/get away but in order to do that, I also need to jump". In my eyes, the input for WD makes sense, but I totally understand why others would find it weird. As for the movement itself being unrealistic, I don't really consider it an issue, specially since double-jumping and directional dodging in the air don't make much sense either when used by most of the cast.

 

[Big-Cat]

Well, there is the suspension of belief. For many, wave dashing as an animation is beyond that.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Wavedash is all I keep seeing. Dash dancing is much more important imo and I want that to make a comeback.

As Marth player I agree, as a Mario player I disagree. Dash dancing is more important though. Wavedashing with Mario was as useful as it was hilarious.

 

[Empyrean]

As Marth player I agree, as a Mario player I disagree. Dash dancing is more important though. Wavedashing with Mario was as useful as it was hilarious.

A Jiggs or Peach main wouldn't care about both.

Yeah, in general though, dash dancing was more important.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

A Jiggs or Peach main wouldn't care about both.

Yeah, in general though, dash dancing was more important.

 

[Baskerville]

I'd be all for adding air dashes, forward and back dashes. The former not only helps characters with poor recoveries, it also improves their aerial mobility and as seen with TvC, it really helped characters like Alex. The latter can help with spacing and generally makes them more versatile on the ground.

 

[Snakeyes]

I think the game could potentially become more exciting with two additions:

1. A forward and backdash that kind of acts like a Melee wavedash, but with a more "natural" input. This dash needs to somehow replicate waveland properties.

2. A forwards and backwards air dash that uses up a double jump and is only available to characters without multiple jumps.

Anything more than that and the movement would become needlessly complicated, IMO.

 

[guedes the brawler]

how about making an advanced tutorial for those things ingame, and making level 7-9 CPUs using them.

 

[ryuu seika]

1. A forward and backdash that kind of acts like a Melee wavedash, but with a more "natural" input. This dash needs to somehow replicate waveland properties.
2. A forwards and backwards air dash that uses up a double jump and is only available to characters without multiple jumps.

Yay! New features available to all the characters but mine .
More seriously, this sounds like a great idea. I do think you have one thing wrong though. Dashing would not mimic a waveland. Airdashing near the ground would.

 

[Snakeyes]

Yay! New features available to all the characters but mine .
More seriously, this sounds like a great idea. I do think you have one thing wrong though. Dashing would not mimic a waveland. Airdashing near the ground would.

Yeah, you're right about that. There should probably be a minimum height requirement, and anything under that would result in a waveland. This would also prevent broken tactics like Instant Air Dash > Knee.

 

[J1NG]

Wave dashing feels counter intuitive to how you play Smash. Most Smash techniques should be easy to execute, it's how you execute them that makes you a good player.

In another thread, I posted an idea for a simplified wavedash input. The idea was basically to remove jumping from the input, so all you would have to do in order to wavedash is to press diagonal down and L or R. Left/Right and L or R would still be a dodge roll, down and L/R would still spot dodge.
But...that's only if wavedashing actually needed to be simplified.

 

[Big-Cat]

I think the game could potentially become more exciting with two additions:

1. A forward and backdash that kind of acts like a Melee wavedash, but with a more "natural" input. This dash needs to somehow replicate waveland properties.

2. A forwards and backwards air dash that uses up a double jump and is only available to characters without multiple jumps.

Anything more than that and the movement would become needlessly complicated, IMO.

Both could probably be done with the double tapped input I've suggested several times. The only issue is the backdash's input.

The more I think about it, these two would get the job done in regards to enhancing the movement aspect of the game.