Movement in Smash 4

[Big-Cat]

We've had a lot of talks in this forum regarding the likes of wavedashing, speed, and so on. With this in mind, we should be thinking about what could possibly be done to improve the movement aspect of the game and perhaps be done with certain ideas.

I think we don't need wavedashing for one, regardless of input. Lots of other games have done fine without wavedashing. Sure, there would be a loss of options, but perhaps you were never really meant to have those options to begin with. Does it really make much sense to step actually step back and attack instead of looking like you're on a conveyor belt? Besides, Smash 64 didn't have wavedashing and it's turned out fine.

I think what should be focused on for movement in the game is things like bringing back aerial momentum and adding more weight to the walking and running of the characters. As someone having quality time with a Smash game for the first time in nearly five and a half years, the characters feel very tough to control for me in Project M. Sometimes I walk or run by accident and not by choice due to the sensitivity of the analog stick.

What do you think could be done to improve the movement game as it IS the core of this game.

 

[Renji64]

More anti-wavedashing proganda. It does suck losing a movement option and it is awesome to follow up attacks. But the only thing that can be added now is some type of air dash or something idk it is a new game so i'm expecting anything to return.

 

[JediLink]

Lots of other games have done fine without wavedashing.

For what it's worth, many (most?) 2D fighting games have forward/back dashes, which effectively serve the same purpose as wavedashing.

 

[Empyrean]

More aerial momentum would be appreciated. Also, while I do not necessarily demand that wavedashing return, they could always add other movement options. How about making the rolls faster (like Little Mac fast) in general, and allowing one to cancel the roll at anytime after the startup into an attack, special or grab, (maybe even crouch-cancelling it) while retaining all the momentum? (think glide-tossing from Brawl, but with actual moves instead of items only) At the very least, such a mechanic could add a lot of interesting options and function similarly to wavedashing. No new input would be required, it would just be a matter of timing and spacing.

 

[Zonderion]

What do you think could be done to improve the movement game as it IS the core of this game.

Umm nothing, as we have no control in how Sakurai plans on developing the game...

But, to entertain the idea, I liked the idea of a melee type air dodge, but without the free fall, like Brawl's air dodge. However, your first air dodge is like melee's, and all other air dodges (before touching the ground again) is like Brawl's.

Edit: wording

 

[Monkley6]

More aerial momentum would be appreciated. Also, while I do not necessarily demand that wavedashing return, they could always add other movement options. How about making the rolls faster (like Little Mac fast) in general, and allowing one to cancel the roll at anytime after the startup into an attack, special or grab, (maybe even crouch-cancelling it) while retaining all the momentum? (think glide-tossing from Brawl, but with actual moves instead of items only) At the very least, such a mechanic could add a lot of interesting options and function similarly to wavedashing. No new input would be required, it would just be a matter of timing and spacing.

I've been thinking about something like that too lately. Take the invincibility out of the rolls and make them more a way to enhance movement instead of an "omg" button.

Edit: As for OP, I'm with Zonderion. We can't really do anything about it, and we won't be able to really fiddle with it until it's released and we can see what we CAN do with the physics and what-not.

 

[D-idara]

I've been thinking about something like that too lately. Take the invincibility out of the rolls and make them more a way to enhance movement instead of an "omg" button.

Edit: As for OP, I'm with Zonderion. We can't really do anything about it, and we won't be able to really fiddle with it until it's released and we can see what we CAN do with the physics and what-not.

Don't even imply that you're considering the possibility of thinking about that. It's an insult to real Smash fans when people claim that they want to 'fix' SSB4.

 

[Ulevo]

Don't even imply that you're considering the possibility of thinking about that. It's an insult to real Smash fans when people claim that they want to 'fix' SSB4.

'Real' Smash fans? Do you read what you type? I'm not running out to go mod the game before I even know when its release date is either, but the game isn't some sacred object that must never be questioned or tampered with. If people enjoy the games in any form, and are passionate about it, I'm pretty sure they're Smash fans.

 

[Big-Cat]

More aerial momentum would be appreciated. Also, while I do not necessarily demand that wavedashing return, they could always add other movement options. How about making the rolls faster (like Little Mac fast) in general, and allowing one to cancel the roll at anytime after the startup into an attack, special or grab, (maybe even crouch-cancelling it) while retaining all the momentum? (think glide-tossing from Brawl, but with actual moves instead of items only) At the very least, such a mechanic could add a lot of interesting options and function similarly to wavedashing. No new input would be required, it would just be a matter of timing and spacing.

Sounds like how Tekken does their forward and back dashes where you can generally can crouch cancel to reduce the distance and recovery.

Though I think to play it safe, canceling with a crouch only may be the most balanced option. The key thing is mostly movement, not necessarily the attack options.You can't have everything at once.

Umm nothing, as we have no control in how Sakurai plans on developing the game...

It doesn't mean we can't entertain the idea. Would you rather have threads about smelling the characters?

 

[Monkley6]

Don't even imply that you're considering the possibility of thinking about that. It's an insult to real Smash fans when people claim that they want to 'fix' SSB4.

O_o I have no intentions of modding it... Im just thinking wishfully.

Spoiler

 

[DaDavid]

More aerial momentum would be appreciated. Also, while I do not necessarily demand that wavedashing return, they could always add other movement options. How about making the rolls faster (like Little Mac fast) in general, and allowing one to cancel the roll at anytime after the startup into an attack, special or grab, (maybe even crouch-cancelling it) while retaining all the momentum? (think glide-tossing from Brawl, but with actual moves instead of items only) At the very least, such a mechanic could add a lot of interesting options and function similarly to wavedashing. No new input would be required, it would just be a matter of timing and spacing.

Well as far as rolls go, we see Marth in the Rosalina video acting very quickly out of rolls as well, so it's clearly not just a Mac thing. That to me has been one of the most hype-inducing bits of info pulled from the footage we have.

 

[Spazzy_D]

Don't even imply that you're considering the possibility of thinking about that. It's an insult to real Smash fans when people claim that they want to 'fix' SSB4.

You know, there is a happy medium between "Final Destination, no items, Fox only" and "random stage, random characters, Items on high." The "tournament" folk can sometimes get to me, but different people play this game for different reasons and it's more then fair to criticize something you may not like about the game.

Personally, I would love more mobility options, as long as they felt like they belonged in the game. I never cared for wave dashing because the input felt so counter intuitive, especially when the philosophy behind smash is the simplicity of the controls. Also, this may be a bit silly, but the sound of multiple people wave dashing, clack clack clack, drives me crazy.

 

[ryuu seika]

Of course wave dashing was unintuitive, it was never meant to exist as such.
People will argue that, because it has a special state, it was intentional. No. It was intended for people to be able to dodge to the ground and it was intended for some momentum to carry over but it was never meant to be an all purpose movement option like it became.

 

[Johnknight1]

Honestly, we could do without Wavedashing, but smash really needs an alternative quick movement technique or functionality of some sort.

Whether it be faster running start up speeds (which if too different among slow/heavy and fast/light characters will be even more imbalanced), faster shield rolls, a form of quick boosts (like in other fighting games, possibly similar to quick moves forward and back in actual iRL fight sports) or what have you, I think smash needs something like that.

Wavedashing and Melee's speed with the majority of the mid to high tier characters shows that Smash really benefits from having such quick momentum changes, especially when compared and contrasted with Brawl and the slow movement and camping/stalling issues that are much more prevalent in it, as well as the lack of offense and combos, specifically outside of the highest tier characters.

Heck, Smash 64 could have benefited from something like Wavedashing or any quick momentum booster.

So yeah, I would prefer a substitute for Wavedashing, but it better work, especially for all the roster, like how Wavedashing helped make characters like Luigi, Mewtwo, Young Link, DK, and Ness better, more relevant, and really gave those characters more offense and spacing options (which they all really needed).

Edit: Also any further hate or any hint of hate of any level or kind of play of smash (from first time players to the best at a game) will result in me pushing the "Report" button, and that's the bottom line.

Basically, don't be an elitist idiot, which yes, players at any level of play can be one of those. This thread is for a discussion of how to improve the game. This is not a hate tank thread for certain "label" of players.

If you want to go to such a hate tank place, the. I suggest you take a time machine back to GameFAQS in 2005.

 

[DaDavid]

Honestly, we could do without Wavedashing, but smash really needs an alternative quick movement technique or functionality of some sort.

Whether it be faster running start up speeds (which if too different among slow/heavy and fast/light characters will be even more imbalanced), faster shield rolls, a form of quick boosts (like in other fighting games, possibly similar to quick moves forward and back in actual iRL fight sports) or what have you, I think smash needs something like that.

Wavedashing and Melee's speed with the majority of the mid to high tier characters shows that Smash really benefits from having such quick momentum changes, especially when compared and contrasted with Brawl and the slow movement and camping/stalling issues that are much more prevalent in it, as well as the lack of offense and combos, specifically outside of the highest tier characters.

Heck, Smash 64 could have benefited from something like Wavedashing or any quick momentum booster.

So yeah, I would prefer a substitute for Wavedashing, but it better work, especially for all the roster, like how Wavedashing helped make characters like Luigi, Mewtwo, Young Link, DK, and Ness better, more relevant, and really gave those characters more offense and spacing options (which they all really needed).

Edit: Also any further hate or any hint of hate of any level or kind of play of smash (from first time players to the best at a game) will result in me pushing the "Report" button, and that's the bottom line.

Basically, don't be an elitist idiot, which yes, players at any level of play can be one of those. This thread is for a discussion of how to improve the game. This is not a hate tank thread for certain "label" of players.

If you want to go to such a hate tank place, the. I suggest you take a time machine back to GameFAQS in 2005.

GameFaqs still tends to explode into a fight if Wavedashing is mentioned, even indirectly haha.

 

[Big-Cat]

Honestly, we could do without Wavedashing, but smash really needs an alternative quick movement technique or functionality of some sort.

Whether it be faster running start up speeds (which if too different among slow/heavy and fast/light characters will be even more imbalanced), faster shield rolls, a form of quick boosts (like in other fighting games, possibly similar to quick moves forward and back in actual iRL fight sports) or what have you, I think smash needs something like that.

This is definitely one of the issues, if not THE issue. We could really benefit from a forward or back dash as a form of a quick boost. The question becomes how do you go about implementing it.

Other fighting games do a dash, run or otherwise, in the form of a double tap forward. Perhaps this could be done. The first part gives you that boost forward with the speed depending on the character - i.e. Makoto in Street Fighter has the slowest walk speed but has the fastest forward dash in the series. Holding forward could give you a run which may or may not "match" with the character's forward boost. This could also help with the issue of walking vs. running so that it's always deliberate.

Backdashes are the harder one to think about. We can't do double tap back because Smash's design doesn't work that way. Perhaps the idea mentioned of crouch canceling back rolls could work. Just do Back+Shield at the same time to do it without holding the shield. This way, it works like Street Fighter IV's backdash where there's invincibility, but you can crouch cancel out of it for quicker movement. Meanwhile, forward rolls will continue to require full commitment as it's a way of going through projectiles.

 

[Spazzy_D]

This is definitely one of the issues, if not THE issue. We could really benefit from a forward or back dash as a form of a quick boost. The question becomes how do you go about implementing it.

Other fighting games do a dash, run or otherwise, in the form of a double tap forward. Perhaps this could be done. The first part gives you that boost forward with the speed depending on the character - i.e. Makoto in Street Fighter has the slowest walk speed but has the fastest forward dash in the series. Holding forward could give you a run which may or may not "match" with the character's forward boost. This could also help with the issue of walking vs. running so that it's always deliberate.

Backdashes are the harder one to think about. We can't do double tap back because Smash's design doesn't work that way. Perhaps the idea mentioned of crouch canceling back rolls could work. Just do Back+Shield at the same time to do it without holding the shield. This way, it works like Street Fighter IV's backdash where there's invincibility, but you can crouch cancel out of it for quicker movement. Meanwhile, forward rolls will continue to require full commitment as it's a way of going through projectiles.

Shield and forward to dash, Shield and forward plus down to roll? Or the other way around... basically take the jump out of the wave dash.

 

[DaDavid]

Shield and forward to dash, Shield and forward plus down to roll? Or the other way around... basically take the jump out of the wave dash.

Well if the commands while pushing shield is what's changing here why not just go with something like shield+double tap in either direction?

 

[Spazzy_D]

Well if the commands while pushing shield is what's changing here why not just go with something like shield+double tap in either direction?

Yeah, that actually makes more sense. A lot of the games mechanics can change with more "out of shield" options.

 

[StarshipGroove]

Double tapping? What's the point? Smash Bros is the fighter that introduced smashing the control stick!

Shield + tilt input = standard roll
Shield + smash input = wavedash (or power slide, why the hell not) (gets its own animation, so it looks natural)
Simple and works great! This way you can also Wavedash out of shield which is very important.

Not to mention the Wii U pad has new buttons, like clickable sticks... maybe they could use those instead of a clumsy double tap.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

walking backwards should be a mechanic some way or how

I'm dead serious.

 

[Spazzy_D]

Double tapping? What's the point? Smash Bros is the fighter that introduced smashing the control stick!

Shield + tilt input = standard roll
Shield + smash input = wavedash (or power slide, why the hell not) (gets its own animation, so it looks natural)
Simple and works great! This way you can also Wavedash out of shield which is very important.

Not to mention the Wii U pad has new buttons, like clickable sticks... maybe they could use those instead of a clumsy double tap.

Clickable sticks won't work, because the 3DS doesn't have clickable sticks. I really wish they had been separate games (that were developed at separate times.)

 

[Big-Cat]

Double tapping? What's the point? Smash Bros is the fighter that introduced smashing the control stick!

Shield + tilt input = standard roll
Shield + smash input = wavedash (or power slide, why the hell not) (gets its own animation, so it looks natural)
Simple and works great! This way you can also Wavedash out of shield which is very important.

Not to mention the Wii U pad has new buttons, like clickable sticks... maybe they could use those instead of a clumsy double tap.

What's the point? The point is so that the input is deliberate and you don't get something as basic as walking or running done by accident. This can easily happen in the heat of the battle. You can say to just work on execution, but you, personally, have to draw the line somewhere.

You might as well ask why do current Mario platformers like 3D World still have to hold a button down to run like in the old days. While the reason back then may have been because of a lack of analog input, today, it reduces the number of missteps in controlling a Mario game.

And Smash may have "introduced" smashing the control stick, that doesn't mean it's a good idea. Remember, just because it's different doesn't mean it's good or bad. It's simply different.

 

[StarshipGroove]

walking backwards should be a mechanic some way or how
I'm dead serious.

Captain Falcon and some others could run backwards in Melee, but it got removed in Brawl for being too overpowered and stylish

 

[CRASHiC]

For what it's worth, many (most?) 2D fighting games have forward/back dashes, which effectively serve the same purpose as wavedashing.

Yes smash has that too, its called running in that direction.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

Double tapping? What's the point? Smash Bros is the fighter that introduced smashing the control stick!

why not allow it as an option

also smash introduced a lot of things, that doesn't mean all of them were good ideas.

 

[Spazzy_D]

What's the point? The point is so that the input is deliberate and you don't get something as basic as walking or running done by accident. This can easily happen in the heat of the battle. You can say to just work on execution, but you, personally, have to draw the line somewhere.

You might as well ask why do current Mario platformers like 3D World still have to hold a button down to run like in the old days. While the reason back then may have been because of a lack of analog input, today, it reduces the number of missteps in controlling a Mario game.

And Smash may have "introduced" smashing the control stick, that doesn't mean it's a good idea. Remember, just because it's different doesn't mean it's good or bad. It's simply different.

Right, but Shield + C Stick makes it about as deliberate as possible.

 

[Big-Cat]

Captain Falcon and some others could run backwards in Melee, but it got removed in Brawl for being too overpowered and stylish

Wasn't it an exploit? That it wasn't something intended.

@ CRASHiC
Glad to see you're back from the dead. I thought you were banned.

@ Spazzy_D
I suppose that's one other way, but the 3DS doesn't have that option exactly. Just try doing double taps on your controller and picture doing short forward bursts, running by holding forward, etc. You don't have to like it, but try it.

 

[DaDavid]

Double tap on the 3DS D-Pad feels pretty good to me, but double tapping the stick, pad, thingy feels... odd.

 

[Spazzy_D]

3DS controls are going to be gimped unless you have the attachment for the second analog stick add on regardless, it would have to be done via smash command on 3DS then, I suppose.

 

[Johnknight1]

walking backwards should be a mechanic some way or how

I'm dead serious.

It's called "Moonwalking", and you can do it in Melee, Project M, and I think Smash 64 too.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Yes smash has that too, its called running in that direction.

Difference is that every character in smash has the same kind of dash, and they don't give you the same number of options besides dash attack, side B or anything involving moving forward. In Melee you could grouch cancel which allowed you to use your neutral options out of a dash. It seems like this would take the need out of walking but it doesn't since you could only crouch cancel during the actual dash animation and not during the trot, so you can mess up spacing.

I am very concerned with movement in smash myself. Tekken is a good example how you can introduce character specific movement to characters while aligning it within the same engine. Maybe some characters in smash should have character specific movement options, or at least have attack/defensive options during movement, maybe having something like a pivot dash attack or something. I'm a bit short on ideas at the moment.

 

[DaDavid]

Well since a decent amount of people have cited Tekken, let's hope something rubs off I guess. I mean I know Sakurai is probably just telling them what to do, but I'd like to think he's open to ideas being presented.

 

[Big-Cat]

It's called "Moonwalking", and you can do it in Melee, Project M, and I think Smash 64 too.

Not QUITE the same thing. Just simply being able to walk backwards. Nothing fancy to it.

 

[CRASHiC]

Difference is that every character in smash has the same kind of dash, and they don't give you the same number of options besides dash attack, side B or anything involving moving forward.

And in those games, when you back dash you are locked into it. You can not attack, you can not do anything. In some games these back dashes are given a small amount of invinciblity, but these are too small to make a difference outside of wakeups in most cases.

Games need limiters on movement. Mobility is one of the most important aspects of action games, even more so in a platforming action game like Smash. Notice how all of the melee top tiers happen to be some of the most mobile in the cast. Fox and Falco's high movement speed and blistering fast fall speed, shiek's incredible use of dash canceling, and jigglepuff and peach have unbridled control of the air game.

Adding more movement speed options won't necessarily "fix" that issue either. Dash canceling is universal but few make use of it like Shiek and the spacies.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

And in those games, when you back dash you are locked into it. You can not attack, you can not do anything. In some games these back dashes are given a small amount of invinciblity, but these are too small to make a difference outside of wakeups in most cases.

Games need limiters on movement. Mobility is one of the most important aspects of action games, even more so in a platforming action game like Smash. Notice how all of the melee top tiers happen to be some of the most mobile in the cast. Fox and Falco's high movement speed and blistering fast fall speed, shiek's incredible use of dash canceling, and jigglepuff and peach have unbridled control of the air game.

Adding more movement speed options won't necessarily "fix" that issue either. Dash canceling is universal but few make use of it like Shiek and the spacies.

This is true, which is why I brought up crouch canceling, which clearly has some set perimeters on its use. If Marth was able to use easily use a down tilt out of a pivot that would be undeniably strong (Which is actually possible in Melee and Brawl but are incredibly difficult to perform with some consistency), but characters actually have to be in the dash animation to do so. This means that using tilts while walking has some use.

But I do agree that there has to be some limits to movements, or at least some universal form of movement that has some risk/reward to them so that characters who aren't airborn and extremely agile have some ability to compete, but no amount of mobility limitations can fix that; that's up to the overall design of the game and its characters.

In the end, I think what most people want is some method of fluid movement, but characters who have that fast paced run and gun style we know and love should play as they are intended without being completely dominant.

 

[ryuu seika]

While we're citing Namco based examples, consider Tales of Xillia. Its back/toward step has been a staple of 2D fighters for years so it's far from new but clearly something that works.
It should, IMO, be a quick movement burst that can link to anything but movement and can pass through foes but not provide invincibility.

It's not exactly a wavedash but it is the most natural replacement for it. As for implimentation, how about one of the jump buttons?

Realistically, though, the new speed rolls will most likely be sakurai's answer.

 

[Pazzo.]

Double tap on the 3DS D-Pad feels pretty good to me, but double tapping the stick, pad, thingy feels... odd.

Have you played KI:U? It was fine it that.

 

[Empyrean]

Sounds like how Tekken does their forward and back dashes where you can generally can crouch cancel to reduce the distance and recovery.

Though I think to play it safe, canceling with a crouch only may be the most balanced option. The key thing is mostly movement, not necessarily the attack options.You can't have everything at once.

Yes, limiting it to crouching only would make more sense, as it is already done with dash-cancelling.

Well as far as rolls go, we see Marth in the Rosalina video acting very quickly out of rolls as well, so it's clearly not just a Mac thing. That to me has been one of the most hype-inducing bits of info pulled from the footage we have.

The first time I saw that roll, I seriously thought they had restored wavedashing. Could Marth instantly roll after landing in Brawl, or is this really a new thing?

 

[ryuu seika]

Slightly off topic but do we have any idea how well the circlepad works for smash inputs yet?