Mother's Boys - The Lucas and Ness FAQ

[Xfactor777]

Lucas FTW all the wayyyyy

 

[OMAR the O]

I just started using this Lucas character. He is quite the trickster.

 

[Smashbros_7]

lol, what's with this fascination with ademisk?

PS. Ness guides should go on the ness boards. I'm all for that. Besides, if it goes there, maybe there'll be some organized development of Ness's metagame.

Fascination? I hate the **** creep! Levitas and Aevin. DEFEAT HIM! in a match.

 

[Firstaidguitar1]

love it man. really makes me proud of my character.


Good work. Keep it up.

 

[_clinton]

Hi again I'm made a wall of text this time ^_^

Just a small tip about Ness' Bat and Lucas' Stick Projectile reflecting skills...they both do 1.5x the normal damage when there being sent back at the user...case in point...Mario's Fire Ball...it did 7% when shot back...the 2nd one shot back did 8%...the Fireball does 7.5% of damage then when shot back...^_^

I noticed you missed a few things with Magnet...so I'm going to list everything for the characters...

Ness' Magnet overall, has a better absorbing range then what Lucas' one has...sure it protects him from all sides but its reach is different...Try Din's Fire to see what I mean...The bomb effect that move has lets Ness restore his % a lot easier (when dealing with a smart foe who doesn't want to let Ness and Lucas restore %) then what Lucas does...

but anyway along with Ness' 2nd funtion of the move...I think it would be a good idea to include that part with it in Ness' Magnet special move...instead of where you put it...you include Lucas' Magnet's 2nd funtion when you 1st start talking about his...so why not Ness'?

List of things I've seen Magnet Absorb and then some...
how this is set up btw...
Character and their move/what Ness heals/what Lucas Heals

Mario's Fireball/8/13
Luigi's Fireball/10/15
Peach's Toad Spore/29/45
Bowser's Fire Breath/4+3+3+3/5+5+5+5 (per one press of B)
Yoshi's Stars from his ground pound/7/10
Zelda's Din's Fire/13-26/20-30
Samus' Charge Shot/5-30/8-30
Zamus' Stun Gun/7-10/10-15
Zamus' Stun Gun aimed at the ground/18-25/28-30
Pit's Arrows/8-18/13-28
Ice Climber's Ice Breath/29 for one 58 for both/45 for one 90 for both
ROB's Laser/8-15/13-23
Kirby's Cutter wave/8/15
Dedede's Stars from his ground pound/8/13
Dedede's Waddle Doo's Beam/44/68
Fox's Gun/4/8
Fox's up and back throws/10/15
Fox's down throw/13/20
Falco's Gun/5/8
Falco's up and back throws/10/15
Falco's down throw/13/20
Wolf's Gun's laser/8/13
Pikachu's Thunder Jolt's Ball/15/23
Pikachu's Thunder Jolt's Wave/10/15
Pikachu's Thunder Pillar/16/25
Charizard's Flame Thrower/4 +3+3+3+3/5+5+5+5+5 (for one press of B)
Lucario's Arua Speare/9-21/14-30
Lucario's Force Palm Shock Wave/9-12/14-18
Ness' PK Fire's Bolt/7/10
Ness' PK Thunder's Ball/13/20
Ness' PK Flash/15-30/23-30
Lucas' PK Fire's Bolt/5/8
Lucas' PK Thunder's Ball/16/25
Lucas' PK Freeze/16-30/25-30

Characters that I haven't been able to find something that you can absorb with...
DK
Diddy
Wario
Link
Shiek
Ganondorf
Toon
Metaknight
Olimar
C. Falcon
Squirtle
Ivysaur
Jigglypuff
Marth
Ike
Mr. Game and Watch
Snake
Sonic

You missed a few pokemon as well...according to the Ness guide on GameFAQs Ho-oh's Scared Fire can be absorbed...I don't know by how much...but whatever...I'm still testing some things with PSI Magnet with stuff like the stage hazards and all that junk...

Assistance that can be absorbed...yeah custom Robo can be absorbed...but the problem is...I don't know by how much...so I'm not going to list him...

Saki Amamiya's Gun shots...I was able to get up to 30% with Ness for one clip from him...I haven't done it with Lucas yet...

 

[Aevin]

Wow, thanks a bunch for the information, Clinton. You're saving me a ton of work, and your info's so detailed! I forgot about Peach's toad attack and the space animals' throws. As for the pokemon ... I'll try with the sacred fire and Ice beam, but I'm finding that in Brawl they're not very kind with the pokemon--you can't absorb Torchic's fire, so I'm pretty skeptical you could absorb Ho-oh's. Oh, and you can absorb Game and Watch's food.

I really appreciate the percentages you're providing. Don't think because I haven't updated with them yet I won't be using them. I'm very grateful, and just have to get the time and mindset to put your information to use.

Earthbound: Sorry, forgot to say thanks for the information. As with the other stuff, I do appreciate it and will add it to the guide soon.

 

[_clinton]

<b>"Oh, and you can absorb Game and Watch's food"</b>

Actually I wasn't able to absorb the food...

 

[Aevin]

Hmm ... You're right. That's really weird.

I know it's gonna sound like I'm making stuff up, but when I say "personally verified," I mean I've tried it myself. Is it possible that you could in the Japanese version? For curiosity's sake, I'll check it out on Wednesday when I go to the friends' house who have the *** version. The reason this one sticks out so clearly is because I thought you shouldn't be able to absorb it, since it's not an energy based projectile, but they demonstrated to me that you could. But yeah. It obviously doesn't work, so I'll remove it from the list.

Edit: lol the censor system edited out "***."

 

[Aevin]

WTF?! Someone ... did something to the guide somehow. Oh ... Wait. I have an odd feeling I know exactly what day it is ... Yep. April fools, sure enough. Now I don't know whether to be pissed or amused ...

Edit: Kay. I'm officially amused. They replaced every occurrence of "Ness" with "Ninten," "Lucas" with "Claus," "Smash" with "Halo," "Snake" with "SNAAAAAAAKE!" among other things. I'm guessing this is forum wide and will eventually be reversed, so I'll leave it be. In the mean time, for anyone who reads the guide ... um ... enjoy?

Um ... Up above, I meant to say "In the mean coin." Take that, forum!!!

 

[_clinton]

So...some things that I've noticed btw...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpf-Rva12kA

I think Ness has a better Sweet Spot then Lucas...

I know he can footstool jump off of foes higher then Lucas can as well...
I know he can duck lower (he puts down his head) then Lucas as well...which comes in handy for certain projectiles...(Fox)

Some things I noticed with Ledge Momentum PKT2 btw...you said you didn't test it with Ness right? Well I did...you know how it is easy to knock Lucas down after doing that?

Well it is easy to knock Ness up when doing that...

I can make a video if you don't take my word for it btw...

 

[Levitas]

Fascination? I hate the **** creep! Levitas and Aevin. DEFEAT HIM! in a match.

He's fine to me...

Anyway, I played him like 3 days after brawl was released and won maybe 60-70% of the games... but lag invalidates that fairly seriously.

Anyway, hasn't he toned down his posts a bunch for a while now?

Also, Ness's sweetspot is def. bigger, but Lucas uses his tether to make his edgegrabbing ridiculous.

 

[Aevin]

Some things I noticed with Ledge Momentum PKT2 btw...you said you didn't test it with Ninten right? Well I did...you know how it is easy to knock Claus down after doing that?

Well it is easy to knock Ninten up when doing that...

Well, I tested with Ness, but I was trying to aim DOWN, and didn't get a very noticeable speed boost.

And I trust your information, and I'm pretty grateful for it. It's just when it goes against what I've found myself, I like to check it out--and prove myself wrong every time.

 

[Earthbound360]

Yeah Aevin, I told you about that. It was called thunderslide in melee.

 

[Aevin]

Yeah, I know. I'm gonna add your information soon, Earthbound360, and I'll change the heading on "Ledge Momentum PKT2" when I do.

However, I have to say that in all my testing, I've yet to see anything useful for Ness in that technique. I tried shooting both down and up. There's a tiny speed boost I can see in shooting up, but it seems barely noticeable. The only way I could tell was by listening to when his voice clip was interrupted by being hit. Am I just doing it wrong? I can get it to work with Lucas all the time ... Maybe the increased speed of his PK Thunder in this game makes it less worthwhile?

 

[_clinton]

Didn't you say you didn't find the tech. that useful for Lucas as well? btw Earthbound360 how'd you like a match sometime?

 

[Earthbound360]

Sure _Clinton. I'll add you.

BTW Aevin, if you need help with any of those techs, just ask me a question. I know how to do both.
And remember, Ledge momentum = Thunderslide

 

[Aevin]

I personally don't find the thunderslide that useful, but I have to admit there's a considerable speed increase in Lucas's case, and I use it occasionally. But with Ness, the increase seems so tiny it would be unlikely to make a difference. Of course, if you disagree, I'm eager to learn.

EDIT: Updated with move percentages and a few more advanced tactics.

 

[Shibby]

Very helpful!

 

[PK-ow!]

I didn't know Lucas' dair spiked. o.0 In fact, I don't believe it.
I could swear I've used that thing all the time - I use it at the apex of a jump to land all four hits, and all I get is damage + just enough hit stun to scramble to safety.

Now a few points, about as disjointed as Lucas' f-tilt:


1) I'm not convinced the two characters complement each other. I'd be happy to find this the case, but I neither ever had that intuition, or did ever come to believe that in the time I've been using the two. With your matchup section incomplete as it is, you haven't done anything to allay these doubts.

2) I want to add that I've used Lucas' Nair in an entirely different way, which is to sort of leapfrog the opponent, use an nair, hitting them with most of the move, and being safe on the other side of them. It also works if people jump into you mistakenly thinking you'd have less time to reach than you do - then I jump and basically Nair in place, getting a lot of damage on someone coming at a skew angle, and knocking them aside (whereas an uptilt would be too weak, and other aerials don't have the right hitbox).

3) It seems odd to put a judgment of PK thunder ease in the guide. Don't you think different people will find a different boy's Thunder more intuitive? Myself, in a way that pleasantly surprises me, I 'get' both of them; I haven't observed any interference in my acquisition. So, just for having a more objective guide, you can point out perhaps that 'you need to figure out how to aim these', but you really can't say one is harder.

3.1) Learning to get a PKT2 to go where you want can't just be called 'tricky', it's still necessary to play the character. Pulling off *every* possible PKT2 is something I consider to be part and parcel of PK kid mechanics, just as anyone would say making every Fire Fox or every Dark Dive is just elementary. Aiming these moves, and learning what you call the "feel" of where PK Thunder is*, is one of the things people just need to sit down to practice for. Thankfully, it's something that can be done through pure repetition, like doing small problems for a test. The comfort of training mode, just jump off the stage then try to get back, over and over.
If I had a guide like this, I'd tell people they have to get to know PK thunder so they can aim it, *in any direction*, even when they can't see the PK Thunder, OR their own sprite. I hold myself to the same requirement and I don't think it's impressive, I think "this is how it's done."

4) I think you can fill 'Ness' into the slot against Game and Watch. Bucket will totally gimp Lucas' PK Fire (and I think Freeze?), which then forces Lucas into a close range fight. Game and Watch's quick jumps, fast falling, exceptional DI, and hard-hitting aerials will invalidate Lucas' main approach strat, and their priority over Lucas' will just mean his inferiority in the air in general.
Game and Watch is simply a more nimble character, and yet the moves he'll be landing have more power than those of Lucas, and just as much stringing ability.
It's pretty clear Lucas' is an uphill fight. Ness, however, is doing a jig. His added weight will just ever so slightly enable his aerial game against Game and Watch - at least putting them on par there - and the two will have intricate ground interaction. It seems like something even, but the player behind that G&W is being forced into going aggro because Ness threatens with RAR and other quick power against an inert foe (with a bad dodge). He's not outside his comfort zone but it means he can't let up, so he has more effort. Ness gets a little repose because he can more easily play defense here.


So ... overall, helpful guide, yet... also leaves me with troubling doubts?

 

[Aevin]

I didn't know Lucas' dair spiked. o.0 In fact, I don't believe it.
I could swear I've used that thing all the time - I use it at the apex of a jump to land all four hits, and all I get is damage + just enough hit stun to scramble to safety.

It does spike. I use it often. Once you get the hang of it, it spikes (for me) much more reliably than the back air, though with not as much power. It spikes at the lowermost hits on the second and fourth spark, but if you're connecting with all four hits, the way the opponent is stunned usually puts them up too far. I seem to hit with it pretty well when I start just below the opponent and engage the down air just as I jump. This way, the opponent is stunned in place, and Lucas rises as he performs the move, so that the fourth hit lands far enough up and spikes. Trust me on this one. Some of my information may be poorly phrased, but if I find something inaccurate I change it right away. I use this move all the time for spiking purposes.

1) I'm not convinced the two characters complement each other. I'd be happy to find this the case, but I neither ever had that intuition, or did ever come to believe that in the time I've been using the two. With your matchup section incomplete as it is, you haven't done anything to allay these doubts.

Sorry ... The match-up section needs work, admittedly. I think you would at least concede that each character has unique strengths and weaknesses? In my mind, this means that when one's weaknesses make him do badly against a particular opponent, you may do better using a character who has different strengths and weaknesses. The boys' jumps, recoveries and several other moves are similar enough that playing both should come somewhat naturally, and I definitely think there are opponents that one does better against than the other.

If that doesn't work for you, you can look at it in even simpler terms--I love both characters, and I love using them together, so I wrote a guide. Basically, I'm a hopeless fanboy who felt compelled to produce something. And it seems to be useful to many people.

I have to admit I'm limited in the match up section because I do not fight against all these characters regularly. If you have some information that would help to complete that section, I welcome your input.

2) I want to add that I've used Lucas' Nair in an entirely different way, which is to sort of leapfrog the opponent, use an nair, hitting them with most of the move, and being safe on the other side of them. It also works if people jump into you mistakenly thinking you'd have less time to reach than you do - then I jump and basically Nair in place, getting a lot of damage on someone coming at a skew angle, and knocking them aside (whereas an uptilt would be too weak, and other aerials don't have the right hitbox).

I use it in these ways, too, but never thought to include it. I'll try to remember to add your advice next time I update. With credit, of course.

3) It seems odd to put a judgment of PK thunder ease in the guide. Don't you think different people will find a different boy's Thunder more intuitive? Myself, in a way that pleasantly surprises me, I 'get' both of them; I haven't observed any interference in my acquisition. So, just for having a more objective guide, you can point out perhaps that 'you need to figure out how to aim these', but you really can't say one is harder.

Hmmm ... I think I was referring to my own experience in initially learning to aim the moves, not the ease of getting them off once you've learned them. If my phrasing is to the contrary, I'll change it.

3.1) Learning to get a PKT2 to go where you want can't just be called 'tricky', it's still necessary to play the character. Pulling off *every* possible PKT2 is something I consider to be part and parcel of PK kid mechanics, just as anyone would say making every Fire Fox or every Dark Dive is just elementary. Aiming these moves, and learning what you call the "feel" of where PK Thunder is*, is one of the things people just need to sit down to practice for. Thankfully, it's something that can be done through pure repetition, like doing small problems for a test. The comfort of training mode, just jump off the stage then try to get back, over and over.
If I had a guide like this, I'd tell people they have to get to know PK thunder so they can aim it, *in any direction*, even when they can't see the PK Thunder, OR their own sprite. I hold myself to the same requirement and I don't think it's impressive, I think "this is how it's done."

I'm not sure I understand what you mean here. Again, I was talking about "tricks" in the context of learning the moves, if that's what you mean. I wanted to provide ways that initially learning the aiming on the moves might be made easier. It seems like you're nitpicking a lot merely about the way I phrased things. With that said, I've personally learned a lot since writing this, and it's due for a revision. I'll certainly keep your advice in mind when I revise.

4) I think you can fill 'Ness' into the slot against Game and Watch. Bucket will totally gimp Lucas' PK Fire (and I think Freeze?), which then forces Lucas into a close range fight. Game and Watch's quick jumps, fast falling, exceptional DI, and hard-hitting aerials will invalidate Lucas' main approach strat, and their priority over Lucas' will just mean his inferiority in the air in general.
Game and Watch is simply a more nimble character, and yet the moves he'll be landing have more power than those of Lucas, and just as much stringing ability.
It's pretty clear Lucas' is an uphill fight. Ness, however, is doing a jig. His added weight will just ever so slightly enable his aerial game against Game and Watch - at least putting them on par there - and the two will have intricate ground interaction. It seems like something even, but the player behind that G&W is being forced into going aggro because Ness threatens with RAR and other quick power against an inert foe (with a bad dodge). He's not outside his comfort zone but it means he can't let up, so he has more effort. Ness gets a little repose because he can more easily play defense here.

Great advice, and I agree completely. I've actually had some recent experience against G&W, and was hoping to update with his information soon anyway.

Can't say I agree with (or understand) all of it, but I do appreciate you reading carefully enough to offer such in-depth constructive criticism. I'll certainly keep it in mind.

 

[Levitas]

lol, G&W's bair is far better for RAR than Ness's. It's a rough one for both kids.

 

[Aevin]

Um ... Someone enlighten me. What's "RAR" mean?

 

[piZ]

Reverse aerial rush, aevin.

 

[Aevin]

Thanks. I do that with the C-stick (or the B-stick, as it turns out), so I wasn't familiar with the concept.

 

[Smashbros_7]

Looking good so far.

 

[Tyr_03]

The Thunderslide is amazingly useful once you get the timing right. The main thing that I use it for is the PKT2 cancel. It's really easy once you get the hang of it to cancel your PKT2s on Battlefield with the Thunderslide and it's really useful. It moves you really fast, gives you very high priority, can catch opponents in it leading immediately to whatever aerial you feel like using and can often catch people completely by surprise if you're good at aiming it. Even on stages without platforms you can run off the edge and time it to shoot yourself directly backward into chasing opponents. Also for Ness thundersliding can be good if you do it just as an opponent is grabbing the ledge. You time it so that you only barely go off the ledge, and so that your thunder goes past the opponent. If you do it just right you'll be right on top of the opponent while they're in their ledge invincibility frames. From that point, just hit yourself up and it's basically a free PKT2. If the opponent tries to move out of the way they almost always get caught in the tail.

 

[Aevin]

Thanks for the info, Tyr. There's certainly some things I haven't tried--shooting immediately backwards sounds pretty awesome.

The guide's long due for an update. I haven't forgotten about it, I've just been a bit busy. I'll try to get to it soon.

EDIT: Okay ... Updated with counter information on Toon Link and Sonic, additional information for Lucario and Olimar, and added spiking techniques. I also edited the main body of the guide to make it more informative and accurate.

 

[sonic boy]

wow cool you made one for both ness and lucas nice guide

 

[Aevin]

Thanks!

 

[Airgemini]

Awesome guide!

 

[Aevin]

A long overdue update with additional advanced tactics and opponent information.

 

[Earthbound360]

Added a little tip for a next update on the Ness forum for you

 

[Tyr_03]

You have a pretty major error regarding stage/ground cancelling aerials. Although technically all aerials can be stage cancelled, a good number of them it is completely useless because the hitbox doesn't have time to come out. Lucas's Nair cannot be stage cancelled and have the hitbox come out.

You'll notice if you use his Nair while near the ground he does a handstand before being able to attack. When a move is stage cancelled, as soon as the character touches the ground they go to their neutral standing position. From this they can attack as soon as they would have been able to had no attack been initiated at all. Lucas's Nair does not have much lag but it does have some if you don't finish the move while in the air or "autocancel" it. The only aerials that Lucas can stage cancel and have the hitbox come out are his Bair and Uair. Fair is another one that has a very small amount of lag but it is there. If you're unsure, go into training mode and use fair or nair close the ground and jab as fast as you can. Then do a regular jump with no aerial and jab as fast as you can upon landing. This will show that these cannot be stage cancelled.

If you have any questions about this please PM me and I'll explain it more thoroughly.

 

[Aevin]

Lucas's neutral aerial? I use that all the time ... In fact, something I do very often is to repeat the neutral aerial multiple times together by canceling it against the stage. You do a short hop, then almost immediately tap the button. Lucas will perform the move, land and immediately be able to move. I use it all the time for tilt attacks, for example. If you don't time it correctly, Lucas will go into his hand stand animation and have a considerable lag afterwards, but if done correctly his recovery is almost instantaneous. I appreciate that you're trying to help, but are you sure we're talking about the same thing, here?

 

[Earthbound360]

No, as a matter of fact, you guys ARENT talking about the same thing.

Aevin is simply discussing the conecpt of cancelling an aerial that has knockback in the final hit (Like Lucas' nair) t cancel that knockback and lead into combos.

Tyr, you are talking about the much more complex auto-cancel

 

[Tyr_03]

ugh okay. Definition problems. According to the AT sticky in the tactics board, what you're talking about is called autocancelling. This is the word that some idiot came up with when the idea was started because you know what? You're not cancelling ANYTHING when you do that. The move simply finishes before you land. So you're not cancelling lag, there just wouldn't be any anyways.

What I was talking about I've heard called stage cancelling, ground cancelling and autocancelling. This is when you touch the ground during a window of time at the begining of an aerial which cancels the rest of the animation for the aerial and makes you land with virtually no lag. This can't be done with all aerials. I have a list on the tactics board which shows all the ones it is possible with for every character. Lucas can only cancel his uair and bair this way.

I really think your explanation of cancelling the lag on Nair needs to be reworded because atleast to me it sounded like what I was talking about. You might mention autocancelling bairs and uairs in here as well. They can be really useful with Lucas. Sorry about the mix up. I hate whoever came up with the naming system around here. It's DLX hit cancel all over again.

PM me if you have questions about it because it can get really confusing if you don't know what you're looking for and it's not a very widely observed lag cancel. I can even send you a video from my Wii to show how it works with Lucas if you want to know.

 

[Aevin]

Thanks for clarifying, I think I understand, now.

I'll change the heading to "auto canceling" and try to make the explanation clearer.

EDIT: UGH. Got the definition backwards again. I swear I got it this time, though.

 

[Professional Idiot]

This is a very nice in-depth guide; it helped me alot with my ground-based maneuvers.

Anyways, I have something to add to the Basic Character Strategies section for Lucas: dashing and then suddenly executing an U-Smash is a good way to use it without being too predictable, since the attack retains the momentum from dashing during its startup.

 

[Aevin]

Yes ... I've been meaning to revise those sections anyway. I'll try to remember to add that.

 

[Dark Zell]

Thanks for the great guide. Much help for the next tournament! Makes me glad I chose Lucas as my main and gave up Diddy mostly.

Oh and I went to my first tourny a while back and fought a very tough Ness. 2 stocked me first round, but I came back to beat him on the next 2.