MKs Counterpicking = overrated?

[Staco]

Okay, first off.
In europe we mostly use a strict ruleset.
We often just use 3 starters (SV, BF, FD) an alternative are 5 starters lists with two more neutralish stages added to this 3, such as Lylat Cruise, Yoshis Island or PS1.

We mostly use an 11 stages ruleset.
All starters of the new SWF ruleset + Orpheon + Brinstar.

I will also take Rainbow Cruise and Pictochat as an option in this thread, since they are allowed often in america, I think. And I will also take a 7 or 9 starter system as an option.


So, people often think MK got an advantage, because of counterpicking. But I don´t think thats so true after all.
Diddy, Falco, ICs etc. can all counterpick pretty solid and good stages for them.
Some special characters, such as Lucario, Snake and Olimar have a big range of stages to pick.
The only stages, which are generaly really good for MK are Brinstar, RC, Orpheon and maybe Delfino.
But:
Delfino often is also a good stage for other characters. (espeacally, when the stage lands on the ground it often helps other characters against MK!)
Rainbow Curise is a playable stage against MK for a lot of characters.
Brinstar is okay for a few characters.
Orpheon is a pretty good stage for some characters. (the 2nd transformation is pretty good against Mk for a lot of characters + its the part, where the fight is mostly played on!)

In europe we even didnt get RC, so Brinstar will most likely be banned.

So, is MKs counterpick advantage really that big after all?
Arent other characters as effective as MK, when it comes to characters such as Diddy, Falco and ICs, because Brinstar, Orpheon etc. work good against them in general?

If you take Olimar as an example (noticed that during the Olimar discussion): We don´t have a solid CP against Olimar.
Espeacally in the europe version, where just Brinstar would be that really good CP.
In the american version Olimar is still able to play on RC and that stage isnt 2 bad for him.
Often he cant get gimped that easy and he has just to pay attention to the stage at the left going up part.
But instead he got a lot of good stages to pick against MK!
Pictochat, Siege, Yoshis Island, Halberd, they all seem to be a good Olimar counterpick against MK.

So, what do you think?

 

[Karcist]

I think that MK's counterpick options are vastly better than the rest of the casts. Just being honest.

Also about the Olimar stage part, Brinstar and RC are extremely good against him. Just pick the one that he doesn't ban and there you have a solid counterpick.

 

[Kaffei]

I think RC is a stupid stage

 

[Staco]

I think that MK's counterpick options are vastly better than the rest of the casts. Just being honest.

Also about the Olimar stage part, Brinstar and RC are extremely good against him. Just pick the one that he doesn't ban and there you have a solid counterpick.

In europe I cant pick any of this two stages against Olimar, cause RC is banned in general, Brinstar will be banned by opponent.
So, where are my counterpick options now?

 

[etecoon]

RC and delfino are overrated for MK IMO, I actually would never CP a lot of characters to delfino I'd rather go back to neutrals, but it's good against some others

brinstar is broken but 90% of people are smart enough to ban it now

 

[~ Gheb ~]

MK is still top tier on neutral stages and you can easily strike most characters' only counterpick as well [typically FD]. You just have to actually outplay your opponent, which doesn't seem to be a problem for MK in europe at all. Watching you play I never felt that it affected you negatively.

 

[etecoon]

that's really the truth of MK's CP strength IMO, I don't think anything other than brinstar is that broken for him(norfair and other pseudo legal stages I guess, but I don't count those), but if you ban FD you never really have to deal with anything too stupid either, and you already have the base advantage on everyone except maybe diddy

 

[Lord Chair]

Staco, please change your statement from 'MKs CPing is overrated in general' to 'MKs CPing in Europe is overrated'.

Both of which are wrong, in the States MKs counterpicking is sublime, and in Europe no one overrates it because back here no one actually states it's all that broken. At worst you'll end up on Frigate/Delfino (which are also rather good for MK).

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

MK's counterpicking in the states is actually kinda stupid. Needs more stage bans.

 

[Karcist]

In europe I cant pick any of this two stages against Olimar, cause RC is banned in general, Brinstar will be banned by opponent.
So, where are my counterpick options now?

All of the other counter picks are still much better for you than they are for Olimar.

 

[Staco]

All of the other counter picks are still much better for you than they are for Olimar.

So, why are people telling me?:
Dont take Olimar to Piazzale, dont take Olimar to Orpheon. :/
Dunno, I have to play a good Olimar and get my on view on this.

 

[-LzR-]

One thing to say: Don't say Europe. Just say Germany. We in Finland got a diverse ruleset with PS2 and Norfair and Japes and everything.

 

[Karcist]

So, why are people telling me?:
Dont take Olimar to Piazzale, dont take Olimar to Orpheon. :/
Dunno, I have to play a good Olimar and get my on view on this.

Because some stages are better than other for MK

 

[-LzR-]

Only good thing about Orpheon it that there is no ledge on the right side of the stage for about 50% of the match. Otherwise it's a good Oli stage.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

One thing to say: Don't say Europe. Just say Germany.

All legit regions in europe use that stage list jfyi

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

All stupid regions.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

At least they don't get two stocked by a Lucas.

 

[Laem]

I hereby declare Bavaria to have been 2 stocked by Lucas

 

[-LzR-]

It's so sad Europe sucks. Stupid ruleset, scrubby players. That's just a stereotype, but many wifi players are like this.

 

[Kaffei]

Europe doesn't suck..

 

[-LzR-]

Most of them seem to be people who complain about everything and don't know anything about the game. I may be wrong, but that is the image I get so I must not be the only one.

 

[Staco]

It's so sad Europe sucks. Stupid ruleset, scrubby players. That's just a stereotype, but many wifi players are like this.

wifi

wifi

wifi


Now you should finally realise why the things you said are nonsense.

 

[Orion*]

Most of them seem to be people who complain about everything and don't know anything about the game. I may be wrong, but that is the image I get so I must not be the only one.

even if thats true it has nothing to do with skill level ._.

 

[BluePeachy100]

At least they don't get two stocked by a Lucas.

Daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaamn, not that was low.

lzr, $10 debate mm, you're free.

 

[-LzR-]

Usually people who complain about stuff that is cheap aren't very good. Thought I agree that there are so good players around too.

 

[Jem.]

winning game 1 as MK vs a character that isn't MK is a very good feeling. Because other characters CP's aren't game-breaking CP's, like taking Falco to Rainbow Cruise or something of the sort. If Diddy takes you to Smashville, big deal, you can still win. But Falco on Rainbow? Pretty much a free win for MK if he knows how to stay ahead of the stage and force Falco to work back just to keep up with the stage.

Also, I'm fairly certain Frigate is possibly one of MK's 3 best stages. It makes grounded shuttle loop kills relatively easy on most the cast, and it has the Brinstar lava effect in the sense that if youre getting camped on frigate, just wait for the stage to flip and you have a chance for stage control again. Not to mention the gimps you can get on characters like Falco/Diddy.

 

[-LzR-]

I like Frigate for MK since it's an awesome stage. The ledgeless side makes gimps so easy.

 

[BluePeachy100]

Thank you, Jem! More people need to give frigate a chance.

 

[Staco]

Frigate is my regular counterpick against Diddy and Im always doing almost 1 stock better there against the Diddy players.

 

[Player-4]

Delfino is my regular CP then either Frigate or Rainbow. I actually don't like Brinstar or Norfair very much, too much stupid **** can happen.

 

[Exdeath]

If Brinstar is banned then I usually take Marth and Diddy to Frigate (where I usually 2-stock Ch@z).

 

[-LzR-]

Man I suck on Delfino. I can't really do anything there for my advantage. I don't know the stage very well. I usually go Brinstar or Frigate. Most people ban brinstar against me since no one here can beat me there when I play my best.

 

[lilseph]

RC & Brinstar = <3

In any MU (at least for me)

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I actually am really bad on brinstar. I mean, I know the stage, but I keep on making really stupid mistakes (like tornadoing through the middle to my death)... I'm always relieved when opponents ban it, because I prefer RC by a mile.

 

[Exdeath]

I actually am really bad on brinstar. I mean, I know the stage, but I keep on making really stupid mistakes (like tornadoing through the middle to my death)... I'm always relieved when opponents ban it, because I prefer RC by a mile.

Try practicing it.

 

[lilseph]

Yah pratice it, its a fanstastic stage.

 

[ぱみゅ]

That's why I'm good on Pictochat. Nobody knows what to do on it lol.

 

[-LzR-]

I know Brinstar really well and RC too, but in Brinstar no one can beat me from my country really. In RC it's an easy fight, but I tend to lose to the best players.

In Brinstar, get a lead, tornado throught the middle to divide the stage. Now the opponent has to jump over the stage to approach you. It will be impossible, you will win every single time.
If your opponent is a camper, do the same, but go to the right side and roll behind the pillar, this allows you to hide behind it. This stage will be the best when you pressure the opponent with a timer.

 

[Jem.]

Pictochat is such a silly stage. It feels like character matchup doesn't even matter on Picto, it's just a battle of who can combo with spikes and combo into the pirahna/fire better.

LZR - I never go for destroying the stage. Brinstar is beautiful because if your objective is to time-out, only a baboon would get to 50 ledge-grabs or more. You can easily uair below the stage and pressure their shield, get them to roll, then the uair hits. They sit in shield, keep spacing uairs on their shield, then nado or nair and they'll be hit.

It also forces them to come up because of the lava.

Also, you shouldn't be playing Marth on Frigate. There is no reason MK should have to CP marth hahah <3 poor marf.

 

[-LzR-]

Once in a tourney match I timed someone out in Brinstar, I think it was Pikachu. I got like what, 3 ledge grabs.
My strategy is to get a noticeable lead, like at least 10%. And then nado at a good moment and the stage will break and then I flee to the other side.

Now you see, the opponent has to approach me from above because there are no ledges or anything between the stage. It works like the lava, force the opponent to go aerial. Also, this way Pika couldn't reach me with his jolts so I could just stand there and react to his actions.
When he approached, I punish it easily to get a better lead or I could run under the stage and glide on the other side to reset the situation.