MK Grab Releases - How EXACTLY guaranteed are they?

[VietGeek]

I would like to point out the MK ones in particular. I got another player (not a CPU) to try to jump as soon as possible and immediately airdodge as well (out of boredom)...

I found that Dolphin Slash does not work for one. When you dash, there's a set amount of time in place before you can use Up+B or Down+B (and I believe B as well). The shortest amount of time humanly possible to do DS to MK, MK also regains his ability to move. If Dolphin Slash doesn't sweetspot from the ground, you're ****ing dead from the lag. He can choose to perfectshield it too, which leaves him to **** you in his favorite way.

Dancing Blade seems to not work either. From the tipper of the initial strike (any later and MK can airdodge), MK can continually try to Smash DI and jump up, and none of DB's follows-ups can trap him in from what I gathered.

Nair I'm pretty sure can be avoided too, as it doesn't swoop down enough to hit MK before he gets movement again. My friend was able to jump out of the tippered first strike, but forgot to airdodge and got hit by the other one. <_<

Dash attack I'm not sure. I was just trying these out of whim and figured anyone who spams Jump can get out of a lot of these. =(

Fair seems guaranteed as long as you tipper though, so it's the most reliable one I know of.

I did this in Training Mode, but considering it is simply dodging tactics, there should be no variations in a true Brawl.

I'd be DELIGHTED if you guys refute my points though. =)

Random question: How DO You Smash DI out of MK's Fair and Bair? Just Smash DI up?

 

[grandmaster192]

can you run up and do another grab?

 

[BarDulL]

So far, I believe you can Fair, Forward-B, Dash Attack, and Up B (risky!) after the grab release before Metaknight can move. Not sure about anything else as of yet. Nair I'm pretty sure doesn't work (although I may be wrong?). I don't think you can grab again, either.

I tested these on a friend in normal brawl mode. He tried rapidly pressing y (jumping away), constantly tapping a (to attack before I can attack), and pretty much doing anything else to avoid getting hit. But I'm almost 100% Metaknight can't do anything as long as you do it correctly.

 

[AcidJazz]

You can definitely do dashing blade (forward B). I've landed up smash a lot of times too, i'm thinking its gauranteed as well. It's all about timing but I'm pretty sure if you time it right, you can get the upsmash in. Good kill @ 110

I hope its gauranteed

Don't bother with Up B. You want to go with dancing blade (for damage) or up smash (for kill). If they're falling off the ledge you might be able to get a fair in but i'm not sure on that.

 

[Ulevo]

Bardull is right. All of those work. The regrab does not, and neither does the Nair. Also, to avoid having MK Smash DI properly out of Dancing Blade, change up the variation, and never use the final green strikes, as those will be Smash DI'd for sure and get you killed.

 

[VietGeek]

Bardull, by saying DS is risky, do you mean it's not guaranteed, or that "if you screw up you're dead" kind of risky?

I buffered a Up+ B from a dash so that it would try to do DS whenever possible, and MK was also able to jump during that time (if they jump, the DS doesn't sweetspot, there's near-no hitstun, and you know what happens next). It could be Training Mode has more time to jump/dodge than a normal Brawl and less hitstun, but why would that be the case? Why does Sakurai have to **** up this game in the wrong way? Why am I so lazy? Do you prefer Swiss or cheddar?

Ah, and for Dancing Blade, should I use blue strikes? The red strikes can be jumped out too (referring to the 2nd and 3rd strikes).

You know, Training Mode has been so lame lately, I might retest these in a real Brawl later. >_>

Ulevo: I don't know if you edited this, but your Emblem Dedication guide lists Nair as a follow-up. So I guess you removed it already, right?

 

[3xSwords]

Well remember Viet you can cancel a dash at any time with a jump so you can do a DS in the air. I'm pretty sure that will connect although idk if it will tipper. I know for sure that MK gets out of grab release stun about half a body length above the ground.

So basically I think everything BarDull said is probably the only things you can definetely hit with. Just follow up with fair imo its easiest to tipper with and minimal risks involved.

 

[VietGeek]

Well remember Viet you can cancel a dash at any time with a jump so you can do a DS in the air. I'm pretty sure that will connect although idk if it will tipper. I know for sure that MK gets out of grab release stun about half a body length above the ground.

So basically I think everything BarDull said is probably the only things you can definetely hit with. Just follow up with fair imo its easiest to tipper with and minimal risks involved.

Yeah, I was thinking about jumping. But then there's Dancing Blade...

If you jump and do it, it's slower and takes more frames. Running up to do it means MK can just jump out of the hitstun and airdodge unless he messes up. Unless I'm missing some super technique to always land DB, I don't see it.

Dash attack, Fair and DS (with jump) will work (I've tried those again). Dolphin Slash has a low success rate since they can buffer a perfectshield in, meaning the tipper frame and his landing frame are near to each other.

I don't see much in DB, although then again, many people don't try to spam jump to get out of these things. It's all DI, Smash DI, whatnot. It may have led some that tried it out in battle to suspect it really does work (I know I thought it was a 100% set-up too).

DB in the air seems too slow, so I'm led to think only grounded one will even connect. As I said, it seems they can just jump out of it. <_<

 

[Demonstormkill]

Dolphin slash works just fine for me. I just jump into it out of the dash. It shows up as a combo in training mode at least, but I haven't had a chance to try this in competition yet.

 

[∫unk]

Well remember Viet you can cancel a dash at any time with a jump so you can do a DS in the air. I'm pretty sure that will connect although idk if it will tipper. I know for sure that MK gets out of grab release stun about half a body length above the ground.

So basically I think everything BarDull said is probably the only things you can definetely hit with. Just follow up with fair imo its easiest to tipper with and minimal risks involved.

Bardull is correct. If Metaknight touches the ground then he can move. So anything that hits him in the air will work.

The up smash doesn't have enough horizontal range to hit out of the dash before Meta touches the ground I believe, but if the Meta doesn't put up his shield immediately he will get hit by it.

Things like dancing blade and dolphin slash work because they either have enough horizontal range so you can hit out of the dash, or you can use it in the air like dolphin slash.

Only thing that's annoying with dolphin slash is sometimes you mess up the timing and then the trajectory is terrible.

 

[Demonstormkill]

How much can MK actually influence this with DI? I was able to get the usmash combo in training mode, but I doubt it would work with correct DI.

 

[Steel]

Bardull is correct. If Metaknight touches the ground then he can move. So anything that hits him in the air will work.

The up smash doesn't have enough horizontal range to hit out of the dash before Meta touches the ground I believe, but if the Meta doesn't put up his shield immediately he will get hit by it.

Things like dancing blade and dolphin slash work because they either have enough horizontal range so you can hit out of the dash, or you can use it in the air like dolphin slash.

Only thing that's annoying with dolphin slash is sometimes you mess up the timing and then the trajectory is terrible.

Well not quite, Meta can jump out before he hits the ground. If he couldn't then we would have an infinite grab release on him.

 

[VietGeek]

I'm still not sure if Dancing Blade works. I'm usually not the one to argue, but I'm seriously questioning it.

Unless I'm worst at timing than I thought, here's what I did.

Get another player to use MK. Go grab him and let him get out himself. During that time, let him spam Jump. You approach with Dancing Blade. Get the first hit to connect (I did tipper, otherwise he jumps out of the first strike too) and see if it all connects (neutral or up, not down strikes), all while the MK users spams jump during the duration of Dancing Blade.

I did that, and Dancing Blade does not work. =/

It does however, work 9/10 on a CPU 9 MK.

 

[∫unk]

Well not quite, Meta can jump out before he hits the ground. If he couldn't then we would have an infinite grab release on him.

Ignore the noob (me).

He can only jump out right before he lands correct?

 

[Steel]

Ignore the noob (me).

He can only jump out right before he lands correct?

I think it's about the height of Marth's head is where he can jump out. Maybe a little lower.

 

[Cisne]

Just tested. ( On a cpu, again, I have to guess what a skilled player could do in those frames )

Just like the first time , I only find a safe option in fair and for KO porpuse, nair.

I would never use DS , mk can perfectshield/airdodge it without trouble.
And for DB , its seems that using smash di for the first tipped hit you can shield the second. I need to test this.


PD: While testing , Marth did a sliding shieldbreaker out of a dash(No jump, no full dash). How do you call this ?

 

[VietGeek]

Just tested. ( On a cpu, again, I have to guess what a skilled player could do in those frames )

Just like the first time , I only find a safe option in fair and for KO porpuse, nair.

I would never use DS , mk can perfectshield/airdodge it without trouble.
And for DB , its seems that using smash di for the first tipped hit you can shield the second. I need to test this.


PD: While testing , Marth did a sliding shieldbreaker out of a dash(No jump, no full dash). How do you call this ?

I know fair works, I know DS is too risky anyway (if you jump and do it, you can actually do it before they dodge), but I'm pretty sure Nair doesn't work.

A human MK with multiple jumps can simply jump out of DB. I've tried it several times, the results were the same. They spam jump, they get out and the set-up doesn't work. Glad I have a supporter that the set-up isn't as guaranteed as said. =/

Junk, Steel, other regulars of the Marth boards, go find someone or something and tell them to spam jump as they do a Jump Break and you follow up with Dancing Blade. Make sure the first hit connects, and make sure they spam jump regardless, and I'll assume that they'll get out of DB before you even do the last strike on your games as well.

Or should I get my game fixed? <_< I assume it's good and stuff.

To answer your PS: It's a running Shield Breaker, "popularized" by Emblem Lord. You can also dash, Press B and immediately press the opposite direction for a LAGLESS pivot SB.

 

[∫unk]

I'll test this tonight with someone.

 

[Cloudstealth]

I think it's about the height of Marth's head is where he can jump out. Maybe a little lower.

Tested this multiple times and the only thing I could get was the Fair. My friend jumped out everytime when I tried anything else.

He jumps out at Marth's forehead, (while standing still that is) and that's the earliest he can jump out.

Dancing Blade didn't work as he was able to get out, Power Shield and grab or Dsmash.

 

[∫unk]

Jump and dancing blade?

 

[Cloudstealth]

First and second strike of jump DB worked but he always got out and Daired me.

 

[Demonstormkill]

I would never use DS , mk can perfectshield/airdodge it without trouble.

Are you saying this is your result with CPU testing, or an assumption of what a skilled player could do? Because a CPU cannot escape the combo into DS, and it's a reliable kill move at 135% or so.

 

[∫unk]

It kills earlier than that if you're near the edge...

And my friend flaked last second T-T

Someone else test this plz... I'm going to Japan tomorrow so I won't be able to. I need to find the Japanese Brawlers and show them how to play Marth.

 

[VietGeek]

Are you saying this is your result with CPU testing, or an assumption of what a skilled player could do? Because a CPU cannot escape the combo into DS, and it's a reliable kill move at 135% or so.

Err, has skill really dissolved down to who can buffer airdodging and jumping out of a jump break better? My hopes for Brawl dwindle daily...

Anyway, jump to DB is too slow, and as said before, you STILL can't finish it. I've tried grounded DB, but you've already heard the story. I just need you guys to test it for confirmation (with a human, not CPU, blah, blah, read my last post in this thread on how to get started).

As for DS, you have to dash, jump, then do it. It has to be frame perfect or he can buffer a perfectshield/powershield or just jump and airdodge (and even if he just jumps, it screws off the DS sweetspot, giving it a horrible trajectory and little hitstun, AKA, you're going to die soon).

 

[Pierce7d]

It kills earlier than that if you're near the edge...

And my friend flaked last second T-T

Someone else test this plz... I'm going to Japan tomorrow so I won't be able to. I need to find the Japanese Brawlers and show them how to play Marth.

If you manage to run into high level Smashers, beware Bombsoldier. His Falco looks like it came straight outta Melee.

 

[VietGeek]

If you manage to run into high level Smashers, beware Bombsoldier. His Falco looks like it came straight outta Melee.

In the good or bad sense? <_<

Err, hey Pierce, you play MK, try the set-ups I'm disputing if you can please. ^^

 

[Doggalina]

In the good or bad sense? <_<

Good. Scary good.

 

[VietGeek]

Bump.

We need this verified. <_<

 

[Pierce7d]

In the good or bad sense? <_<

Err, hey Pierce, you play MK, try the set-ups I'm disputing if you can please. ^^

ACK! I wish I had seen this yesterday, but I've been training for the last two days. I was at the NYC weeklies for the first time in over a month. I did decent, but lost to a MK.

But, if I may john, I tripped into a Dsmash for a stock and whiffed a Dolphin Slash (simply messed up reversing it) for another.

Outside of that, I used what I've learned and COMPLETELY OUTCLASSED him. It felt very, very good.

Tis okay though, I'll try them soon, I know a few local MKs I can invite over.

 

[VietGeek]

Why did no one ever try this out fully? <_<