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Ya' know. If everyone followed that logic, he would be over-centralizing.Hey Meta Kirby, try picking up MK, since he's obviously so ridiculously easy to play. In competitive gaming it's called "maximizing your chances".
If pro-ban had half the brains they say they do they would all be out playing Metaknight; then they might actually have a point. Whining about getting him banned when he doesn't overcentralize yet is quite possibly the dumbest thing they could possibly do.Ya' know. If everyone followed that logic, he would be over-centralizing.
Too bad not all of us are Overswarm.
Personally, the MK/Snake Matchup isn't shrinking in my opinion, it's the same, just because ally won genesis doesn't mean too much, it wasn't the biggest brawl tourney in history, that went to M2K.I said MetaKnight is. Sure, the gap between MetaKnight and Snake is shrinking, but that's only because of Ally. Again, the evidence persists.
So? Let's say i main t.hawk in street fighter turbo, for those who don't know he's low tier, a grappler, his main purpose is to get in and grab, now let's also say hypothetically akuma's not banned. Akuma is absolutely broken, while he has flaws like low hp and things of that sort, he has something that no one else has, aerial projectiles, in a game where you punish mistakes, and you can do somethnig that cannot be punished (you can throw these projectiles while moving away) it makes it impossible to punish him.Remove MetaKnight, and the other living organisms in the environment will grow considerably in numbers, and since there's no top predator to help steady the population of other animals, they will excessively multiply and topple the cycle. So, Falco's, Snake's, Diddy's, Ice Climbers's, Dedede's, and the like will instead take over. And since I play Yoshi?
I'm having problems either way.
Interesting that you say that. It really doesn't matter if everything he has is off the charts, the thing is, the things he has as flaws (low health, slow horizontal movement, worst jab in the game) is completely overpowered by the fact that brawl is a game of patience, and he just so happens to be the absolute BEST planker in the game ( 5 (?) jumps, ability to glide twice, best gimping character in the game u-air comes out extremely fast for people attacking from above i.e off the ledge, even worse he can down-b to get back to the ledge). If the character was played as a gimping/planking character, he would unbeatable in the terms of every character in the game (especially considering the next best character is snake, and he gets destroyed off the stage).Meta Knight, however, is not broken, believe it or not. A good example of what constitutes brokenness would be Mewtwo from Pokemon Red, Blue, and Yellow. Mewtwo's defenses were off the charts along with incredible HP, his speed was entirely unmatched by all but (maybe) Electrode, and his offense was God Tier. He knew almost every powerful attack in the game at that time, and even a 2-year old could win with him, so he was dubbed broken and banned from competitive play. People made strategies and 6 Pokemon teams solely to beat one Mewtwo, being the superman that he was.
Look, I was only asking what they believed, not supporting the pro ban side or demeaning anti ban . You need to get a grip on your rudeness, because it only makes you look like the prime example of the elitist moron that is so widely hated.Hey Meta Kirby, try picking up MK, since he's obviously so ridiculously easy to play. In competitive gaming it's called "maximizing your chances".
Tell me this:If pro-ban had half the brains they say they do they would all be out playing Metaknight; then they might actually have a point. Whining about getting him banned when he doesn't overcentralize yet is quite possibly the dumbest thing they could possibly do.
And we're down to ad hominem attacks because nobody refuted that playing competitively was the main point of entering a tournament. Thread should be closed by all means.prime example of the elitist moron that is so widely hated.
Its banned flat out, but has proven difficult to enforce a ban, as it can be done for short periods of time so that it is only noticeable on review.But, on the other hand, I have heard about the Dimensional Cape stall on the ledge tactic. I don't know about the particularities of it, or how effective it is, but last I know, it was banned for either a certain amount of times or a certain time period. But maybe I'm mistaken.
Please answer my questions before attacking the majority of smashboards.Adum, that's probably too complicated already for the pro-ban crowd. To simplify it I usually just say that unless it comes down to "play MK or lose", he doesn't constitute a ban. It's short, sweet, and it gets the point across.
Also, for the benefit of those who weren't present for the majority of the MK Ban debate, or for those reading who haven't seen your thread, you should go into detail about the theoretical background for the revamped matchup system.
Using it anywhere, at any time is banned. Its the equivalent of making yourself invincible.So, the use of it at all to get to the ledge is banned? Not just from being already on the ledge and then using it?
No it isn't cuz when I'm invincible from the power star thingy, I get to hear awesome music.Using it anywhere, at any time is banned. Its the equivalent of making yourself invincible.
This is absolutely false. Infinite Dimensional Cape is banned; using the cape for excessive stalling is not allowed, anything besides that is fine, and it's up to the TO's to figure it out at their personal discretion. Stop spreading false information just to make your point seem reasonable.Using it anywhere, at any time is banned. Its the equivalent of making yourself invincible.
It would if it wasn't banned.Tell me this:
Does IDC overcentralize?
You can't use the IDC for stalling purposes. What exactly is so hard to understand about this?Isn't EDC a variation of IDC which technically can cause similar effects?
It is at the TO's discretion to decide when excessive stalling comes into play, just like any other instance of stalling in any of the other Smash games, including Brawl. The fact that MK can do it has no relevance to the situation whatsoever.How do you enforcedly ban EDC when people can just add a clandestine tap here or there to lengthen the dimensional cape?
No, that's what you're not getting. The move isn't banned; use of the move for excessive stalling is.Are we really going to ban one of Metaknight's moves straight up?
If used excessively.Does planking overcentralize?
No.If so, isn't Metaknight the main problem with planking?
Yeah, you're right! Let's ban an entire character because he's good at planking instead of just employing excessive stall tactic rules that have been around since the dawn of Smash!If he can use a strategy well enough to overcentralize, then shouldn't he be banned?
IDC (Infinite Dimensional Cape): MK's DownB move, except extended for longer periods of time. Basicaly, Meta Knight teleports, and as long as you can rapidly tap the C-Stick up quickly enough, you don't have to reappear and can travel any distance you want before actually reappearing. It is definitely ban material.Alright, I'm going to have to ask what is meant by "EDC" and "overcentralize".
Also, shouldn't a tactic that warrants banning be more solidly defined when that tactic is being used in an "unfair" way, rather than having a more vague and subjective "eh, I guess up until now the tactic was alright to use, but now it's not"?
Wrong. Please reread the rules.This is absolutely false. Infinite Dimensional Cape is banned; using the cape for excessive stalling is not allowed, anything besides that is fine, and it's up to the TO's to figure it out at their personal discretion. Stop spreading false information just to make your point seem reasonable.
Its banned outright.Metaknight's Infinite Cape glitch is banned.
I don't know if any trouble has been caused yet, but it allows the Metaknight, if I remember correctly, to move almost all the way across Final Destination. How much of a problem this becomes is yet to be seen.I just have one question that I'd like answered. What I'm asking is, how much trouble is caused by EDC?
Alright. Spell out the difference for me.
And Aeghrur, I basically just answered your question, but if you really need me to spell out what the difference is between EDC and IDC is, then so be it:
EDC isn't banned, and cannot be banned easily. Same effects are possible.It would if it wasn't banned.
I asked about EDC, which technically can be used for stalling purposes, but it is also hard to ban without simply saying MK cannot use Dimensional Cape. After all, how do you ban EDC? Can you notice every single tap? If it's not one tap, what's the arbitrary limit to this? 3 taps? 5 taps? 19837468 taps? Who gets to choose as well?You can't use the IDC for stalling purposes. What exactly is so hard to understand about this?
That didn't answer my question.It is at the TO's discretion to decide when excessive stalling comes into play, just like any other instance of stalling in any of the other Smash games, including Brawl. The fact that MK can do it has no relevance to the situation whatsoever.
No, I'm pretty sure IDC is banned straight up for all of its effects, which is why the move as a whole over centralizes, as you admitted.No, that's what you're not getting. The move isn't banned; use of the move for excessive stalling is.
What? So it doesn't overcentralize if it's just used for the last 3 minutes of a match, but anything past that point, it does??? O_OIf used excessively.
Who is?
lol, excessive. I love when you use that word. I do hope you know how subjective it sounds. Also, don't forget about EDC, which you STILL haven't told me HOW to ban when it could also cause over centralization should it not be banned due to it giving MK a safe way to get away from everything, and a move which can stall.Yeah, you're right! Let's ban an entire character because he's good at planking instead of just employing excessive stall tactic rules that have been around since the dawn of Smash!
Awwww, <3You guys are ********.
IDC (Infinite Dimensional Cape): Dimensional Cape extended infinitely. Banned.Alright. Spell out the difference for me.
So? Read my above statement.EDC isn't banned, and cannot be banned easily. Same effects are possible.
You don't ban EDC, since it's not ban-worthy.I asked about EDC, which technically can be used for stalling purposes, but it is also hard to ban without simply saying MK cannot use Dimensional Cape. After all, how do you ban EDC?
Whoever the TO is.Can you notice every single tap? If it's not one tap, what's the arbitrary limit to this? 3 taps? 5 taps? 19837468 taps? Who gets to choose as well?
EDC is Dimensional Cape used for an extended period of time.That didn't answer my question.
How do you spot EDC?
You don't.How do you ban it?
I don't even know what you're talking about at this point. Do you even know what you're talking about?Or are we just going to have people screaming "Disqualify him" everytime they see Metaknight use Dimensional cape? Tell me HOW you ban EDC. HOW do you spot it? What's the limit? I did not ask "when does it become excessive stalling?"
Nope, I said the technique IDC would overcentralize if it wasn't banned. If you read my previous post I even said that the move itself didn't overcentralize, but IDC did.No, I'm pretty sure IDC is banned straight up for all of its effects, which is why the move as a whole over centralizes, as you admitted.
When did I ever say anything about the last 3 minutes of the match? There you go, making stuff up again.What? So it doesn't overcentralize if it's just used for the last 3 minutes of a match, but anything past that point, it does??? O_O
Exactly what do you mean by "main problem"? You're assuming because Metaknight is really good at planking.......planking should be banned? How is that logical?Who is?
Cool.lol, excessive. I love when you use that word.
Don't yell at me; yell at the people who made the rules. I.E., the SBR.I do hope you know how subjective it sounds.
I never ever endorsed banning EDC, or even mentioned it, so I don't know why you're asking me how we would possibly ban it. How is this relevant to the conversation?Also, don't forget about EDC, which you STILL haven't told me HOW to ban when it could also cause over centralization should it not be banned due to it giving MK a safe way to get away from everything, and a move which can stall.
The C-Stick method described above is the way both are done.Question: isn't EDC done a different method than IDC?
Not important to the ban discussion, I am simply unaware of this technique until very, very recently.
Sure. I just love hearing you talk.IDC (Infinite Dimensional Cape): Dimensional Cape extended infinitely. Banned.
EDC (Extended Dimensional Cape): Dimensional Cape extended. Exactly when this turns into IDC is at the TO's discretion.
Want me to dumb it down for you even more?
Okie. :DSo? Read my above statement.
Well, you basically just said EDC=IDC but differing in length. However, the banning of IDC does not take length into account, thus IDC includes EDC which would make it banworthy, since IDC is. =/You don't ban EDC, since it's not ban-worthy.
No, it's an extension of the dimensional cape, anywhere between 1 tap to infinite taps.EDC is Dimensional Cape used for an extended period of time.
Okay, goodie. Then do you agree EDC can't be banned?You don't.
I don't even know what you're talking about at this point. Do you even know what you're talking about?[color]
I think you misunderstood my poorly worded sentence, lol.[color="red]At no point in this conversation did anyone endorse banning EDC. Except for you maybe, but then again you've been so incoherent for the past few pages that I have no idea what your point to all this is.[/COLOR][/quote]
Okay, this conversation was between you and me, so if I endorsed it, then someone endorsed it, lol. And if you want, I can sum up the points we've been arguing about:
EDC cannot be effectively banned without banning MK's Down-B
EDC cannot be banned, and has the same possible effects as IDC, so [b]I[/b] believe it should be banned.
If EDC cannot be banned, and MK can use this technique to stall and such, then it should make MK broken unless we decide to ban it.
You however, argue that EDC cannot have the same effects as IDC because EDC eventually becomes bannable as it becomes IDC.
In which, I rebut that IDC does not depend on length, so ideally, if you cannot ban EDC effectively, you cannot ban IDC effectively.
Oh, and check this: IDC actually is basically the same as EDC. Both are simply the extension of the Dimensional cape indefinitely (or until you want it to stop) [<--- definition credit of adumbrodeus] and thus, since IDC is banned without stalling into consideration, any extension of the dimensional cape would be banned. However, as we have established, one cannot ban EDC effectively, thus one cannot ban IDC effectively since they are one and the same.
[quote][COLOR="Red"]Nope, I said the technique IDC would overcentralize if it wasn't banned. If you read my previous post I even said that the move itself didn't overcentralize, but IDC did.
Well, right now, with the ledgegrab rule, one can basically play regulary for most of the match, and then plank for the last three minutes or so, give or take depending on the amount of ledgegrabs as set by the TO.When did I ever say anything about the last 3 minutes of the match? There you go, making stuff up again.
No... what I was trying to get at was that Planking overcentralizes, MK is the best one at planking, causing these problems. This along with the fact that he can reach the ledge from anywhere with EDC/IDC, and we have ourselves a broken character.Exactly what do you mean by "main problem"? You're assuming because Metaknight is really good at planking.......planking should be banned? How is that logical?
So I guess because Metaknight is really good at recovering, recovery should be banned.
Well, I'm reading the rules, and they don't ever mention IDC being banned because of excessive stalling. They simply state IDC is banned, meaning any extension of the Dimensional Cape is banned. =/Don't yell at me; yell at the people who made the rules. I.E., the SBR.
Because you should realize by now that EDC is the same as IDC.I never ever endorsed banning EDC, or even mentioned it, so I don't know why you're asking me how we would possibly ban it. How is this relevant to the conversation?
That makes it sound not only really vague and arbitrary at which point one becomes another, but just impossible to realistically enforce and keep an eye out for.The C-Stick method described above is the way both are done.
DC---EDC--IDCJust depends how long you C-Stick it. ^
If I made the rules, 2 taps would be EDC, and45taps would make IDC, but that's just me.No, just kidding, 4
Besides, it's pretty hard to do. At least, for me, it is. It's pretty tiring, too.
That makes it sound not only really vague and arbitrary at which point one becomes another, but just impossible to realistically enforce and keep an eye out for.
If they must ban it, it seems they should ban any extension of it.
I play more than Smash competitively, such as Guilty Gear and when I get a PS3 Blazblue.know nothing about competitive fighting games
Also, how is EDC not broken? It allows the user the ability to move across the field completely, get rid of the opponents zoning game, avoid moves all together, and allow for extreme stalling. Its more than stalling, it bypasses the very essence of competitive smash brothers. The person who is having EDC used against him has no zoning option, no Yomi options, no way to counter the EDC, and no way to punish the EDC.IDC=extend using the cstick pressing up over and over if i remember correctly, its the one that can be done infinitely either way.
EDC= Pressing up then down then up then down then up then down while holding one side, cannot be extended indefinitly, works because everytime MK touches the ground he goes a bit farther.
EDC? Don't you mean IDC? EDC probably won't land you very much farther than a regular Down B will, but the line is very arbitrary.Also, how is EDC not broken? It allows the user the ability to move across the field completely, get rid of the opponents zoning game, avoid moves all together, and allow for extreme stalling. Its more than stalling, it bypasses the very essence of competitive smash brothers. The person who is having EDC used against him has no zoning option, no Yomi options, no way to counter the EDC, and no way to punish the EDC.
I realize that, and at this point I'm not even arguing for not banning the cape completely; I'm showing people the reasoning behind the SBR's decision.It has more uses than Stalling though. Zoning, evasion, spacing, recovery. All of these make the move beyond broken.
Don't get a PS3! BlazBlue is out for 360 too.Also, again to discredit the idea that those who are or were ever in favor of a ban are scrubs and I play more than Smash competitively, such as Guilty Gear and when I get a PS3 Blazblue.
I almost wish they would have just given us Melee online.Either way, to me, it mostly smacks of an ill-made competitive game.