Mission Complete!- Fox Discussion Thread

[Maniak]

Oh ok I get it every once in a while now not all the time. Like wtf

 

[RPK]

If you have tap jump turned on, you should be able to do it a good chunk of the time.

 

[Maniak]

I don't play with tap jump on. Messes me up with my uptilts. any specific motions needed now for this

 

[M@v]

Dacus didn't help fox much in brawl anyway; the range advantage was negligible. Falco's the one who got a big advantage from it.

 

[Maniak]

It's just the dash upsmash being different that throws me off.

 

[RPK]

I dont think he was talking about DACUS, but a hyphen smash. Or run upsmash

 

[DavemanCozy]

are you 100% about it? Did you kill with it?

I have been testing for almost 20 minutes on training mode, and i havent been able to kill with it when the enemy is off stage.
Either my timing just became trash from last night xD, or the input is different, or it is not in the game anymore (at least not exactly the way it was).

If you are positive sure you can actually kill with it, can you please explain me the exact moment and how to do it? The way i did it before is not working anymore for me...

I am positive it's definitely still in.

I explained this in another post in some other thread, and many others have already explained this too, but the F-air spike technically shouldn't be called a "spike." It's a property all multi-hit moves have: the hits before the finisher are designed to knock the opponent whichever direction you travel in. Therefore, it's not a true spike like what we've seen in previous games.

As for the timing:
Just fast-fall soon after you do F-air. Because of Fox's falling speed, he'll just fall faster to the ground and miss the last hit. I'll work on getting a video up

Also, you really, really should be careful of using it off-stage. Fox may have a good recovery, but fast-falling off-stage isn't going to make it easy making it back. I haven't used the F-air spike to KO anyone, I use it mainly for combos (trap opponents to force them to tech, or punish them if they don't tech). I prefer offstage N-airs and B-airs over F-airing my opponent, and even then I usually find it's better to stay near the edge and read how my opponent tries to make it back.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I don't know what some of you people are talking about. Fox seems to be exactly the same as he was in the previous version.

 

[elmike]

I am positive it's definitely still in.

I explained this in another post in some other thread, and many others have already explained this too, but the F-air spike technically shouldn't be called a "spike." It's a property all multi-hit moves have: the hits before the finisher are designed to knock the opponent whichever direction you travel in. Therefore, it's not a true spike like what we've seen in previous games.

As for the timing:
Just fast-fall soon after you do F-air. Because of Fox's falling speed, he'll just fall faster to the ground and miss the last hit. I'll work on getting a video up

Also, you really, really should be careful of using it off-stage. Fox may have a good recovery, but fast-falling off-stage isn't going to make it easy making it back. I haven't used the F-air spike to KO anyone, I use it mainly for combos (trap opponents to force them to tech, or punish them if they don't tech). I prefer offstage N-airs and B-airs over F-airing my opponent, and even then I usually find it's better to stay near the edge and read how my opponent tries to make it back.

Thank you for the explanation.
But, if you havent killed with it, how are you sure its working exactly the same way it was on the game pre-patch?

Here is a video of what i could do before, that i couldnt do last night. Maybe its still in, but im no longer able to execute it (i was never able to do it consistently, but now im not able to do it at all)

http://youtu.be/rzBHqGwwCa4

 

[Virgule]

I don't know what some of you people are talking about. Fox seems to be exactly the same as he was in the previous version.

Yup, seems this was all placebo effect, everything seems the same as before, like exactly the same.
Futhermore,after looking at the data changes (All credits go to Dantarion, from the updatepatch board).There is no game.bin (wich seems to hold hitboxes changes etc.) concerning fox while all characters with confirmed changes have one (shiek, shulk). It confirms that nothing have changed if i understood those data correctly.

There are some files with fox name in it that changes but every other characters have it too so it doesn't look like gameplay changes.

I can't link the data cause i didn't reach 10 post yet, so you might have to go dig for it in the update patch board (page 30 look for dantarion post).

 

[Zelkam]

Used an old video I had taken while I was working on my guide to compare Fox's Bair. Both clips were done in training mode at 1/4 speed. Maybe not the best comparison, but it's better than nothing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-jOz0KkSSk

The animation, at least, seems to be identical. It's possible that the hitbox comes out sooner, but I'm unable to test that without deleting my update data and then re-downloading it which would be a royal pain.

 

[Jtails]

Whats up fox boards! I made a little basic competitive guide for Fox and I was hoping if you guys could provide some insight on other good things with fox, or maybe some things I missed. I'm not a Fox main so my guide is probably incomplete, but I think it gives beginners a good enough sense if they want to pick up the character.

http://youtu.be/E9IMOam-Sdg

Any insight would be appreciated, thanks

 

[M@v]

Fox has finally returned to me. Thank you GC controller <3

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

In case anyone hasn't tried it yet, Fox's secret taunt is back for Lylat Cruise. The same also applies to Falco. Of course, the characters do appear different than what they looked like in Brawl, and this includes Wolf as well.

You can test this out in Training if you want.

 

[elmike]

Fox has finally returned to me. Thank you GC controller <3

This may sound dumb, but... why?
Whats specifically better to fox that does not come in a "general fashion" to all the roster by using the GCC?

 

[M@v]

He's just way easier to control and use at a faster pace with a normal controller than 3ds controls

 

[Maniak]

He's just way easier to control and use at a faster pace with a normal controller than 3ds controls

Agreed. He feels so much better, plus dash dance with him into grab or attack is actually doable on the gc controller. The c stick omg the c stick. It helps so so much!!! To me the ability to actually control him like this makes him a greater threat. People trip out on dash dancing into stuff on them. Love it

 

[Hidden Arwing]

About Stage Spiking, how does one go about it when faced in a real match? I've watched this video but it seems VERY situational and hard to pull off. I'm not sure when to exactly use it. Anyone got advice or input? http://youtu.be/OxWgr4W30pU?t=8m47s

Not to mention, I keep reading of all this talk about Fair spiking near the edge. I'd like to see actual footage of that being done in a match (not a tutorial). Everything is harder to pull off under pressure, and I like to fix that~

 

[Zelkam]

I just made a post about fair spiking earlier today in the metagame thread

So I was playing against CPU's the other day and I discovered something on accident that I found really interesting. You can spike you opponent with Fair if it clashes with their attack. It's so simple, I can't believe I didn't think of it until I saw it. I wasn't sure if anyone here had discovered the same thing, but I didn't see any talk about it so I figured I would make a post.

Here's the video that shows what I'm talking about: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6micMHTMlGo#t=134

 

[Hidden Arwing]

I just made a post about fair spiking earlier today in the metagame thread

Now the question is, when is the right timing to pull the stunt off. As I can see you managed to pull it off, but took a bit of damage there. There's still a risk.

 

[NeverKnowsBest]

I have really been struggling at enjoying Fox in this game. I feel he just has nothing going on for him compared to a lot of the other characters. I used to rely a lot of dashing shield grabs but they way they feel in this game has made me look elsewhere for fun.

=(

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I have really been struggling at enjoying Fox in this game. I feel he just has nothing going on for him compared to a lot of the other characters. I used to rely a lot of dashing shield grabs but they way they feel in this game has made me look elsewhere for fun.

=(

That's not character specific though. Shield grab is generally a terrible option now.

 

[Lightning93]

I have really been struggling at enjoying Fox in this game. I feel he just has nothing going on for him compared to a lot of the other characters.

Come on NKB, use some more Nairs and Fairs... you'll find the fun again.

Good stuff keeping this thread active guys. I haven't noticed any major changes with Fox either but the whole "moves flowing together" better may come from the fact vectoring is gone? I still didn't really understand the difference between vectoring and DI, except that vectoring didn't make a whole lot of sense. I may need to be educated/corrected on this change.

 

[Kanzaki]

Vectoring allowed people to survive longer so good for fox.

Di allows people to escape combos so bad for fox.


Now that I have a GC controller.. I really miss auto canceled fairs and triple lasers from brawl

 

[knuckles213]

is there anyway that someone can get the range on fox's moveset because sometimes I feel I cant accurately hit or grab someone with fox in smash 4, i know the hit boxs are fixed from brawl.

 

[Gunslinger]

is there anyway that someone can get the range on fox's moveset because sometimes I feel I cant accurately hit or grab someone with fox in smash 4, i know the hit boxs are fixed from brawl.

Learn the spacing of every move in training move so you can get the feel of his range. Fox has always been a character that didn't have a lot of range, but his mobility and speed combined with his kill potential is why he's always been viable in Smash. Once you master his spacing in Smash 4 you'll be down-throwing and fairing people all day. Nice icon by the way

 

[M@v]

*Sigh*

Am I the only one not feeling fox much in smash 4? I keep trying to like him, but he feels more and more like a worse brawl fox. Brawl fox was on the edge of viability to begin with...I'll explain.

A lot of Fox does feel similar to brawl to me. Still a fast character with several multi hit moves, and several reliable kill moves to choose from. Upsmash took a small nerf in this game, but its still fine as a killer. He does not have to worry about chaingrabs anymore (HUGE). Also, he still has an amazing pivot grab and his recovery at least as good as his brawl form, but in a different way.

....and those different ways lead into the bad for me. Lets start with fair. Fair boost isn't as helpful anymore, which isn't -that- big of a deal...but the move itself though. It does a miserable 7% damage now with all 5 hits, compared to brawl's 23%. In addition, it can't be autocancelled in the same way it did in brawl, meaning its always going to have end lag. The one positive change to fair is its ability to drag people down now, you can slam them into the ground and set them up for followups that way. So in short, yeah you can use it to combo in another fashion than Brawl (Fair->Fair or Fair->Upair), but you take a huge damage penalty.

Next up, shine. You could use shine to shine stall in brawl even better than smash 4, because you could stop shine instantly, and basically hover mid-air. Shine now? Eeeek. They made it exactly like melee again, except with even less fixed knockback and no jump cancel. So now, you have a shine that is A. Is very laggy to use B. barely sends an opponent anywhere, making it near useless for shine spiking, and risky as a bailout option on stage since you can still get punished. The wind shine shows some promise, but that's only if customs get legalized (I'm pulling for them).

Blaster nerf goes without saying. Its really hard to camp with it effectively at all. That wouldn't be a problem if Fox had good approaches............which he still doesn't have. This big weakness still seems to be there. Most of fox's options in smash 4, like Brawl, are easy to stop and shield grab. Thankfully nair got some help; it feels like it has more priority to me, and can combo into more things than brawl. Otherwise, you have to bait out mistakes or shields just like in brawl. Spaced bair is your only real move with significant range.

Lastly, and this one isn't as big of a deal, but down air no longer combos into downsmash and upsmash at high percents like it did in brawl. This takes away a guaranteed kill setup, but its not as big of a hit as the other things I mentioned since Nair->Upsmash is a lot more reliable now, and all his smashes + Upair and bair are good killers.

The TL:DR of this whole thing is, he feels like barely changed brawl fox in the positives with no noticeable buffs outside of side b not sending Fox into freefall anymore and no chaingrabs , and he took several significant nerfs (Shine, fair, dair, blaster). I'm just not seeing how this character can possibly be better than his brawl form right now, or anything better than a mediocre character in smash 4

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Uhh, Fox is REALLY good in this game. Easily top 10-good. He gets sooo much damage for free at low % and has solid, reliable kill setups. Nair, jab, dash attack and utilt link into each other pretty easily until ~50%+. Lagless sideB also comboes into like everything, you can get free uairs and bairs at high percent without any trouble. Just gotta realize that blaster and grab aren't the key moves for Fox anymore and use lots of melee style nair or ftilt in neutral. Make use of Fox' ever reliable punishment game to get the openings you need and you'll be fine. And most of all it's FUN to play.

But you're not getting anything for free ... if you wanna get your **** for free then you have tp play Yoshi, Diddy or Sonic. If those aren't your types of character then Fox is pretty much the next best character to turn to alongside Sheik and Rosie.

 

[elmike]

*Sigh*

Am I the only one not feeling fox much in smash 4? I keep trying to like him, but he feels more and more like a worse brawl fox. Brawl fox was on the edge of viability to begin with...I'll explain.

Personally, i think its better to compare characters in the same game, rather than characters in the previous games.

At first, i didnt like fox (because i was comparing him to melee ). But now that i compare it to others in the game, he is the character (along with yoshi ) that i enjoy the most. It feels very rewarding to kill with upsmash, upair and bair. (with fsmash not so much). Not sure why, it just feel good. Much better than killing with classic kill moves from other "top tier" characters

 

[Virgule]

If you compare sm4sh's fox to his brawl counterpart he seems weakened in many ways and wouldn't stand a chance in a 1v1 (with sm4sh physics). But every character received changes with this game and feels a bit different to play (sometime more or less). If we take your example the yes the F-air does miserable damages compare to brawl, now imagine if it did 23% aswell in sm4sh : it would be insane imo ,especially with sm4sh physics and the rage mechanic. I'm not saying that 23% wasn't huge in brawl but i don't see such a move in the "sm4sh meta".

This is the main point : New game = new way to play. New as in different and not weaker. Fox right now seems like a high tier that could go even with almost everyone(still a personnal opinion),also he is fun to play (fast, his moves are visually impressive and you have multiples possibilities with each one) wich is pretty important.

Though i agree we remains with our main weakness, the lack of approaches.

 

[Gunslinger]

Uhh, Fox is REALLY good in this game. Easily top 10-good. He gets sooo much damage for free at low % and has solid, reliable kill setups. Nair, jab, dash attack and utilt link into each other pretty easily until ~50%+. Lagless sideB also comboes into like everything, you can get free uairs and bairs at high percent without any trouble. Just gotta realize that blaster and grab aren't the key moves for Fox anymore and use lots of melee style nair or ftilt in neutral. Make use of Fox' ever reliable punishment game to get the openings you need and you'll be fine. And most of all it's FUN to play.

But you're not getting anything for free ... if you wanna get your **** for free then you have tp play Yoshi, Diddy or Sonic. If those aren't your types of character then Fox is pretty much the next best character to turn to alongside Sheik and Rosie.

How do you do the lagless side b? I think I've seen Mega Fox do it a few times, and from what I can tell he does a short hop into it. Is that the correct way to do it? Every time I've tried I still get lag at the end.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

How do you do the lagless side b? I think I've seen Mega Fox do it a few times, and from what I can tell he does a short hop into it. Is that the correct way to do it? Every time I've tried I still get lag at the end.

Just do it while you're very close above the ground and it'll work. Try to jump right after it and you'll notice.

 

[Gunslinger]

Just do it while you're very close above the ground and it'll work. Try to jump right after it and you'll notice.

I've got the timing down after a bit of practice. Thanks man, can't wait to apply this to my game against zoning/run-away characters!

 

[Lightning93]

I think M@V and you all have come to an agreement I can roll with. I can totally sympathize with the nerfs M@V is feeling on this one. All of Fox's hallmarks from Brawl are kaput. I really do miss the laser game and shine. Dair is still usable, but lost a lot of its utility. I can see why you're not having much fun with him if that's what you were hoping for . I miss it too.

But Smash 4 is a different game. I think in the context of the game Fox is still viable, and more fun to use than some of the other choices. The fact that tilt locking and chan grabbing is gone for the most part really cheers me up at the end of the day.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Dair is a great move I have no idea wtf you're all talking about.

 

[Gunslinger]

Yeah really. Space a dair behind an opponent -> up-tilt till they're in front of you -> double jab combo -> grab -> down throw -> RAR bair.

 

[Lightning93]

Lastly, and this one isn't as big of a deal, but down air no longer combos into downsmash and upsmash at high percents like it did in brawl.

This and the fact you can no longer drill shine off stage. Dair had the potential to be a lovely gimping move in certain matchups. Sorry if I wasn't clear enough and you had "no idea wtf I was talking about" lol.

 

[knuckles213]

Two things:

1) Why dont we have a match up guide started yet?

2) I was playing wifi the other day and notice alot of shulks, there were some good ones and bad ones, it was really hard dealing with the good shulks. anyone got any tips on that match up?

yo Mav I played you the other night and sent a friend request GGs dude

plus I think fox was way better in brawl than he in smash 4, despite this fox being faster (because of the game) and better recovery, they nerfed him too much in this game and tried to compensate with recovery.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Finally got to play the Wii U version ... Fox is sooooooo good.

 

[I.S FoxMkloud]

Yeah, Fox feels both nerfed and good. He can get a lot of damage in lightning quick I think. But he is bad in regards to laser game. I miss my SHTL and single lasers. I could just run around all day and laser opponents that use characters with better priorities and range in Brawl (like against Marth and such). I feel quite limited with Fox, but I will still Fox, because Fox is Fox. I will have to remember not to automatically go for SHTL when out of range since it's not in the game.