Miracle Of Light - Palutena in SSB4 (Featuring Cereza from Bayonetta-series)

[sjb.dario]

I'll explain some of the MUs I experience then.

Kirby
Kirby is definitely a very annoying character to deal with, especially with his good combo game and the d-air plays. While this gives Kirby ways to win matches against Palutena, all she really has to do is play defensively against him. Palutena's f-air and b-air pretty much beats Kirby's air game. This means that she can wall him out whenever both get in the air. Of course, the problem would be when Kirby runs in to grab. All Palutena needs to do in this case is to be on the defensive. D-tilt is a very good spacing tool against Kirby due to his relatively sub-par runspeed. Empty hopping to grab is another good tool against Kirby. Of course, there is the jab, but I would usually prefer d-tilt over jab against Kirby because he can crouch underneath her jab hitbox.
Of course, I am kinda simplifying how the MU goes, but all you really need to focus on is play very safe. Focus on retreating aerials and guard your ground with well-spaced d-tilts. Hit and run is very effective. Also, remember that since he's a light-weight, jab -> n-air/u-air works against him as a kill move. Palutena should win the neutral most of the time and the only reason the MU isn't 70:30 in her favor is because of Kirby's usual shenanigans.

Rosalina
Rosalina is obviously a pretty unique character in terms of gameplay. Your first and foremost goal is to get rid of the Luma as quick as possible. B-air is a decent move that can do this well. There's also multijab. If the Luma is tethered to Rosalina and you begin to jab on Rosalina's shield, don't stop. Just keep on multijabbing. It should shield poke on the Luma and damage it. Obviously, you'll get punished for it, but at least by then, the multijab should be finished and the Luma won't be there to damage you along with Rosalina.
Once you get rid of that little turd, just fight Rosalina the way you would fight characters with large range. Just keep in mind that since she's light-weight, she'll die to move earlier than usual (no duh lol). Jab -> n-air/u-air is a thing as usual, blah blah blah. Just keep in mind that Rosalina will be extremely defensive until the Luma spawns. This is why I usually avoid taking Rosas to bigger stages. Like, sure, she won't be able to kill me off with her stupid u-air strings in places like DH, but it'll take longer for me to take them down, too. I'm sure you'll figure it out with more practice, yourself.

Megaman
A good zoning character. I usually play extremely lame and just try to reflect most of his junk against him. Otherwise, there isn't really much to say about him. I would just avoid spamming reflect, since that'll make me too obvious.
This is an extremely boring MU, as you can see lol.

Little Mac
I honestly don't understand how you think Palutena outright destroys Mac. His air game and recovery may be terrible, but dealing with his ground game is extremely annoying. If Mac decides to play smartly, it's going to be an uphill battle for Palutena. He just covers the ground with his speed and frame data so well that Palutena will unfortunately have to play out of her mind to beat him.
This is the most open-ended MU for Palutena. If Mac is not some stereotypical FG player, then you'll have to play under his pace. It's difficult to initiate against him in the neutral, since he, too, has a shield. Jab setups do not work against him because of his stupid frame-2 n-air. He can literally just press A out of your jab and your combo will be his combo. His weak recovery and air game are the only things keeping the MU from becoming 70:30 in his favor. If you ever face a good Mac, be very cautious.

These are my thoughts on these particular MUs. Of course, I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that these MUs tend to go like this. However, I, too, am rusty from not playing Smash that much. I should be practicing when I can lol.

Didn't know the Zelda board can become flamey lol.

 

[kmpyj]

I'll explain some of the MUs I experience then.

Kirby
Kirby is definitely a very annoying character to deal with, especially with his good combo game and the d-air plays. While this gives Kirby ways to win matches against Palutena, all she really has to do is play defensively against him. Palutena's f-air and b-air pretty much beats Kirby's air game. This means that she can wall him out whenever both get in the air. Of course, the problem would be when Kirby runs in to grab. All Palutena needs to do in this case is to be on the defensive. D-tilt is a very good spacing tool against Kirby due to his relatively sub-par runspeed. Empty hopping to grab is another good tool against Kirby. Of course, there is the jab, but I would usually prefer d-tilt over jab against Kirby because he can crouch underneath her jab hitbox.
Of course, I am kinda simplifying how the MU goes, but all you really need to focus on is play very safe. Focus on retreating aerials and guard your ground with well-spaced d-tilts. Hit and run is very effective. Also, remember that since he's a light-weight, jab -> n-air/u-air works against him as a kill move. Palutena should win the neutral most of the time and the only reason the MU isn't 70:30 in her favor is because of Kirby's usual shenanigans.

Rosalina
Rosalina is obviously a pretty unique character in terms of gameplay. Your first and foremost goal is to get rid of the Luma as quick as possible. B-air is a decent move that can do this well. There's also multijab. If the Luma is tethered to Rosalina and you begin to jab on Rosalina's shield, don't stop. Just keep on multijabbing. It should shield poke on the Luma and damage it. Obviously, you'll get punished for it, but at least by then, the multijab should be finished and the Luma won't be there to damage you along with Rosalina.
Once you get rid of that little turd, just fight Rosalina the way you would fight characters with large range. Just keep in mind that since she's light-weight, she'll die to move earlier than usual (no duh lol). Jab -> n-air/u-air is a thing as usual, blah blah blah. Just keep in mind that Rosalina will be extremely defensive until the Luma spawns. This is why I usually avoid taking Rosas to bigger stages. Like, sure, she won't be able to kill me off with her stupid u-air strings in places like DH, but it'll take longer for me to take them down, too. I'm sure you'll figure it out with more practice, yourself.

Megaman
A good zoning character. I usually play extremely lame and just try to reflect most of his junk against him. Otherwise, there isn't really much to say about him. I would just avoid spamming reflect, since that'll make me too obvious.
This is an extremely boring MU, as you can see lol.

Little Mac
I honestly don't understand how you think Palutena outright destroys Mac. His air game and recovery may be terrible, but dealing with his ground game is extremely annoying. If Mac decides to play smartly, it's going to be an uphill battle for Palutena. He just covers the ground with his speed and frame data so well that Palutena will unfortunately have to play out of her mind to beat him.
This is the most open-ended MU for Palutena. If Mac is not some stereotypical FG player, then you'll have to play under his pace. It's difficult to initiate against him in the neutral, since he, too, has a shield. Jab setups do not work against him because of his stupid frame-2 n-air. He can literally just press A out of your jab and your combo will be his combo. His weak recovery and air game are the only things keeping the MU from becoming 70:30 in his favor. If you ever face a good Mac, be very cautious.

These are my thoughts on these particular MUs. Of course, I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that these MUs tend to go like this. However, I, too, am rusty from not playing Smash that much. I should be practicing when I can lol.

Didn't know the Zelda board can become flamey lol.

Re-Kirby:
I guess I'm a tad bit bias because my brother plays as this character. We go back and forth on our matches because we keep learning each others's play style. I get Kirby's attacks can be beaten out by most of Pally's attacks, but I'm not sure if you know the true dangers that can come from a crouched Kirby. Almost all of Pally's best moves become useless while Kirby is flat like a pancake. Jab will miss, grab will miss, and if you didn't time it correctly, Fair and Bair will miss. The best way for me to approach him in this MU is to have him in the air as much as possible. That's not to say it's impossible to beat him, but IMO the MU is widely in Kirby's favor. It's bad enough as is that he is a relatively solid character. So whenever I see a Kirby in tourneys, I just switch to Mario (unless I'm playing for fun).

Re-Rosalina:
Oh you know it. Once I see Luma by itself, I sac it immediately. No argument there. I place Rosaline on there because I feel like she really has a solid MU spread against most of the characters in the game. Now that I think about it, great disadvantage might be overstepping it a bit. She'd probably would be more of a slight disadvantage.

Re-Megaman:

You would think with most of his moves being projectiles that Palutena would have this one, but that's really not the case. Like you said, using Reflect too much would become dangerous. There's a really good Megaman player that I run sets with at my local tourney called 914 Goomba. He makes great use of his neutral b, and Jab, and surprisingly uses his down b pretty effectively. They way he uses him makes fighting with Pally a little troublesome due to her combat speed. I feel like he is one of those characters many players overlook.

Re-Little Mac:
Oh boy, where do I evem begin! This is by far my most favorite MU with Pally. It's so one-sided it's laughable. So lets break it down. Little Mac's whole gimmick is that he sucks in air (kinda, that nair is actually pretty nice), but he is like no other on the ground. In this MU, fighting Mac straight up on the ground would be suicide, especially for Palutena. The best way to handle with Little Mac is to respect him. Acknowledge that your ground game will simply be out-beaten by his. Restrain from using your ground tools as much as possible, and rely on your air tools. Whether or not you beat Mac depends on if you got him off the stage during the match. Palutena has every tool necessary to beat out Little Mac's recovery.

*Tries to recover back to the stage with Side B* Action 1: Reflect!!

*Tries to recover back to the stage with Up B* Action 2: REFLECT!!

*Expects the Reflect, so tries to bait it out* Action 3: Jump off stage and use *insert aerial here*

*Expects the Reflect AND the off stage aerial, tries to either air dodge or counter* Action 4: Bait it out and proceed with Action 3.

Action 5:

Spoiler

It's that ridiculous. And I'm not just talking about the basic FG Mac, but I've played against some really good Mac players as well. 30 Seconds! I'll Reflect them off the stage in 30 seconds. Albeit, make one wrong move, and it could be game, but that goes for a lot of Pally's MUs. But yeah that sums up my matches with Little Mac in a nutshell.

The overall reason why characters make it to my disadvantages section is mostly due to speed or hitboxes. Oh lol and yeah, the Zelda threads get pretty hilarious. They raided this thread a couple of years back with the Zelda Sandwiches and the Palutena with seaweed hair memes. it was fun, we all had a good one.

Spoiler

 

[sjb.dario]

I'm getting a strong feeling you didn't read what I had to say about the Kirby MU. D-tilt is a good tool in general lol. It's even better against characters with slow mobility. It can even, you know, catch Kirby's crouch. Also, if he crouches too much, autoreticle becomes a viable option against him, too. Obviously, as I said, Kirby can still pull off his usual shenanigans against you. The only difference is, Palutena just has all the tools to beat Kirby in neutral. Just play safe and do not be overly aggressive against Kirby. Kirby's biggest problem is approaching. Expose it by using your superior movement speed and play with a defensive playstyle (like hit-and-run).

Rosalina's strengths are greatly overestimated a lot of times. Yes, she's a very good character, but she has disadvantages as well. Just look at how big she is. Just go aggro when she loses her Luma. Also, just because she does well against other characters doesn't particularly mean she'll do well against Palutena. Character X may beat more characters but character Y, but that doesn't automatically mean X will beat Y.

For Megaman, you pretty much stated the worst case that happens to Palutena. I never said she curb stomped Megaman. However, his projectiles are slow. They're not like Sheik's needles which are hard to react to. You can pretty much react to all of his projectiles unless if you're standing too close to him. As I said, this MU is going to be extremely lame. Camping him out is a legitimate tactic if he tries to shoot you with projectiles. They all travel in a straight line unlike Duck Hunt Dog's projectiles. He also has a mediocre run speed, so Palutena will be able to outrun him if she decides to run away from him. From my experience, playing extremely lame by keeping your distance and reflecting at the right time should keep you in the lead. Also, keep in mind that autoreticle also works a bit against Megaman. It's decent shield pressure in the right distance, and it'll force Megaman to react to you. Tl dr; just play lame and stay out of his range. Use reflect and autoreticles.

For Little Mac, I'm just going to say, I don't think you've fought a good Little Mac who knows the Palutena MU. If you fight a good Mac who knows how to fight Palutena, you won't be saying that like it's free. The MU is really extremely unique, and I can't really describe how it goes, myself. All I can say is, if the Mac is good and knows the MU, the set will be run under his pace for the most part. And, as I said, his poor recovery and air game are the only things keeping the MU 60:40. Good Macs will make you seriously wonder if they actually have good recovery for a moment, though. They're that annoying but fun to play against.

Obviously, I haven't written down every single detail of how the MU goes, but these are the key points.

Oh, and lol Zelda. I never knew that happened on this thread. Considering how this board is so dead right now, though, it would be a welcome twist to get raided again lol.

 

[kmpyj]

I'm getting a strong feeling you didn't read what I had to say about the Kirby MU. D-tilt is a good tool in general lol. It's even better against characters with slow mobility. It can even, you know, catch Kirby's crouch. Also, if he crouches too much, autoreticle becomes a viable option against him, too. Obviously, as I said, Kirby can still pull off his usual shenanigans against you. The only difference is, Palutena just has all the tools to beat Kirby in neutral. Just play safe and do not be overly aggressive against Kirby. Kirby's biggest problem is approaching. Expose it by using your superior movement speed and play with a defensive playstyle (like hit-and-run).

Rosalina's strengths are greatly overestimated a lot of times. Yes, she's a very good character, but she has disadvantages as well. Just look at how big she is. Just go aggro when she loses her Luma. Also, just because she does well against other characters doesn't particularly mean she'll do well against Palutena. Character X may beat more characters but character Y, but that doesn't automatically mean X will beat Y.

For Megaman, you pretty much stated the worst case that happens to Palutena. I never said she curb stomped Megaman. However, his projectiles are slow. They're not like Sheik's needles which are hard to react to. You can pretty much react to all of his projectiles unless if you're standing too close to him. As I said, this MU is going to be extremely lame. Camping him out is a legitimate tactic if he tries to shoot you with projectiles. They all travel in a straight line unlike Duck Hunt Dog's projectiles. He also has a mediocre run speed, so Palutena will be able to outrun him if she decides to run away from him. From my experience, playing extremely lame by keeping your distance and reflecting at the right time should keep you in the lead. Also, keep in mind that autoreticle also works a bit against Megaman. It's decent shield pressure in the right distance, and it'll force Megaman to react to you. Tl dr; just play lame and stay out of his range. Use reflect and autoreticles.

For Little Mac, I'm just going to say, I don't think you've fought a good Little Mac who knows the Palutena MU. If you fight a good Mac who knows how to fight Palutena, you won't be saying that like it's free. The MU is really extremely unique, and I can't really describe how it goes, myself. All I can say is, if the Mac is good and knows the MU, the set will be run under his pace for the most part. And, as I said, his poor recovery and air game are the only things keeping the MU 60:40. Good Macs will make you seriously wonder if they actually have good recovery for a moment, though. They're that annoying but fun to play against.

Obviously, I haven't written down every single detail of how the MU goes, but these are the key points.

Oh, and lol Zelda. I never knew that happened on this thread. Considering how this board is so dead right now, though, it would be a welcome twist to get raided again lol.

Kirby MU: I think we're on two completely different wavelengths. I've read both your comments fully. What I was saying was that despite all of that, it is still not enough. Yes I agree, fighting Kirby defensively with Palutena is the best way to handle him, and yes I agree that Palutena has tools that can beat out Kirby's moves, but I think there is one thing you're completely overlooking, combat speed. I don't think I have to explain that. I've been playing against Kirby since Smash 64. You don't think I would've thought of hitting him with low moves by now? "It can even, you know, catch Kirby's crouch" And Kirby can even, you know, use Dtilt too. Kirby's Dtilt comes out at frame 4, while Palutena's comes out at frame 14. And if he trips you with that, he basically gets a free Smash attack. On top of that, if he copies your Auto Reticle, he would now have a way to pressure you to approach him, which would help soften his weakness.

Rosalina MU: Which is why I think some players underestimate her because she is overestimated by many. "...just because she does well against other characters doesn't particularly mean she'll do well against Palutena" with the way I worded my reasoning in my previous post, I can see why you said that response. Let me rephrase. Rosalina is strong, very strong. She has the strongest, and most reliable defense in the game. On top of that, she has solid reach on her normals, relatively decent frames on her moves, and has very safe kill confirms. All of this is ONLY possible because of Luma. Rosalina will short-hop fast-fall into a Nair, and even if her attack misses, Luma will still keep on attacking. While that happens Rosalina is completely free to grab you. Yes, you should target Luma in this match, but it will only take 13 seconds for him to respawn back. It's not that Palutena has a definitive weakness while fighting Rosalina, it's just that Rosalina is that much more of a solid character that it becomes a disadvantage. It's like having a Pokemon battle between two normal types. Both of them don't have a weakness to the other, but one of them is a lvl 50, while the other is a lvl 75.

Megaman MU: I never said that you said she could Rekt Mega. And I'm pretty sure most Megaman players are aware of his projectiles being slow. That's why they resort to using his Jab in footsies. Also, I'm not sure I follow with "worst case". If the capability is there it's there.

Little Mac MU: "..I don't think you've fought a good Little Mac who knows the Palutena MU" couldn't I say the same about you though? Take no offense to this, but I could say you haven't fought a good Kirby who knows the Palutena MU, as well as a good Rosalina or Megaman player. I could say those things, but I won't. Albeit, I do joke around a lot with this MU, so I apologize if I came off sounding like this MU is a free win. The point I was saying is you don't fight Mac on his terms, that will cost you the match. Getting Mac off the ground is the best thing you can do to him. Using Jab to *insert move here* wouldn't be safe at low percents because he can just as easily hit you with side b. He has super armor on his Smash attacks, but Pally has shield frames. Little Mac eats the damage but doesn't move, and Pally just blocks it. And if a Mac player makes the best out of Mac's recovery, you just have to learn to adapt. I just listed 4 potential options to deal with his recovery in my previous post, and there are probably a lot more.

Overall: The recurring theme here is Palutena has 2 MAJOR flaws: Sluggish normals, and cracks under high level pressure. The characters that I listed as disadvantages are capable of exploiting said flaws. Keyword here is capable, meaning that it doesn't mean Pally can't beat them, it just means the outcome of the match is going to be based on who outplayed who (though, that goes for everything really).

But at the end of the day, these are just our opinions. I can tell, my Palutena is very aggressive (I blame Mario for that), and from the sounds of things, your Palutena is very defensive. Which probably explains why our MUs are different.

 

[sjb.dario]

Believe me when I say my playstyle revolves around what the MU allows. Everyone has different opinions on my style because of it. By nature, I am an aggressive player, and my Lucina and pretty much all of the characters I use in other fighting games show that. I used to lose in a lot of MUs as Palutena because of it.

Sorry if I sounded too aggressive with my tone. However, I do really encourage you to try doing what I wrote about the Kirby MU. Palu's d-tilt is super disjointed and also has a special property that allows it to beat out moves. It may start slowly, but it has good recovery frames that allows it to be a safe-on-shield move. This is something I learned by discussing it with other Palutenas who knew the Kirby MU very well, so I assure you it's not just me saying this lol. I also did this against a good Kirby player in my scene. I even told him what I was aiming to do when I play against him, but it's clear to us he hasn't really figured out how to deal with my campy plays. The only time he would get me is when I get too impatient and decide to go in to fight him anyway. I think your Kirby friend is just an insane player and is heavily outplaying you.

Similar story with the Little Mac MU. Every Palutena players with decent results I talked with say that the MU is either even or in Mac's favor. It's clear both of us know Mac will be controlling the pace, but it really is a lot more painful than you think. Most characters that beat Mac usually have one thing in common: good OoS options. Mac's attacks are stupidly safe on shield against Palutena. Even his smash attacks are impossible to punish properly if spaced right. Marth and Lucina have side-b and OoS up-b to deal with Mac's attacks. Sonic is just so fast that he gets to dash grab after shielding Mac's attacks. Unfortunately, as you know, Palutena has no decent OoS options, which makes it incredibly hard for her to properly deal with Mac. Not only do I know this by heart, both Palutena players and Mac players I have asked have told me this, too. I don't think it's coincidence that all have said the same thing.

I can't say much else about Megaman and Rosalina, since they are based mostly on my experience and thoughts. I know I could be right or wrong.

II do agree with you that Palutena just lacks the tools to have a good CQC and pressure-escaping methods. In the end, though, it is as you say it is; it's only what the characters are capable of doing. It's up to the players to really get things going in matches.

 

[kmpyj]

Believe me when I say my playstyle revolves around what the MU allows. Everyone has different opinions on my style because of it. By nature, I am an aggressive player, and my Lucina and pretty much all of the characters I use in other fighting games show that. I used to lose in a lot of MUs as Palutena because of it.

Sorry if I sounded too aggressive with my tone. However, I do really encourage you to try doing what I wrote about the Kirby MU. Palu's d-tilt is super disjointed and also has a special property that allows it to beat out moves. It may start slowly, but it has good recovery frames that allows it to be a safe-on-shield move. This is something I learned by discussing it with other Palutenas who knew the Kirby MU very well, so I assure you it's not just me saying this lol. I also did this against a good Kirby player in my scene. I even told him what I was aiming to do when I play against him, but it's clear to us he hasn't really figured out how to deal with my campy plays. The only time he would get me is when I get too impatient and decide to go in to fight him anyway. I think your Kirby friend is just an insane player and is heavily outplaying you.

Similar story with the Little Mac MU. Every Palutena players with decent results I talked with say that the MU is either even or in Mac's favor. It's clear both of us know Mac will be controlling the pace, but it really is a lot more painful than you think. Most characters that beat Mac usually have one thing in common: good OoS options. Mac's attacks are stupidly safe on shield against Palutena. Even his smash attacks are impossible to punish properly if spaced right. Marth and Lucina have side-b and OoS up-b to deal with Mac's attacks. Sonic is just so fast that he gets to dash grab after shielding Mac's attacks. Unfortunately, as you know, Palutena has no decent OoS options, which makes it incredibly hard for her to properly deal with Mac. Not only do I know this by heart, both Palutena players and Mac players I have asked have told me this, too. I don't think it's coincidence that all have said the same thing.

I can't say much else about Megaman and Rosalina, since they are based mostly on my experience and thoughts. I know I could be right or wrong.

II do agree with you that Palutena just lacks the tools to have a good CQC and pressure-escaping methods. In the end, though, it is as you say it is; it's only what the characters are capable of doing. It's up to the players to really get things going in matches.

No no no no, that's fine. I talk like that all the time, so it's fine by me. Similar to you, I as well was losing a lot with Palutena when I first got the game. That feeling that you get when you really want to main or secondary someone, but you just can't seem to make them work. It's actually thanks to my brother that I started to overcome that, and ever since, I've kept improving with her, which pretty much kickstarted my Youtube channel. He main's Kirby, and we do play Palutena MUs every so often. So when you we're giving me advice on how to handle with Kirby, you we're kinda preaching to the choir with that. Me acknowledging Kirby's strengths isn't me saying I don't know how to beat him. I've played against many Kirbys besides my bother you know, so it's not like he is the only one. Most good Kirby's I've won against barely if ever play against Palutena. She's that rare. The ones I have lost against either understood Palu's shenanigans, or simply adapted to my play style, and out played me. But it's not like I was born yesterday. I place relatively high with her at my locals. All a Kirby player has to do to combat a defensive Pally is to play defensively themselves. Like I said before, if Kirby copies your special, he now will have a tool he can camp with as well. Eventually, you will have to approach him. All a Kirby player has to do is be patient.

As for Little Mac, I'm interested now. Do you have any match examples I can look at? Are these Pallys playing too defensively? Are these Pallys making wrong reads? I'm really am curious now. The idea of dealing with Mac by keeping him in the air isn't something exclusive to Pally. This is something everyone does. It's a universal strategy. Some characters are better at dealing with this than others, I agree, but Palutena is more than capable of doing so. I really recommend the advice I gave with Mac not just to you, but to the other Pally players you've spoke of. I can't really speak on this any further without me diving into my personal experience. So I'll leave it at that.

Nevertheless, this is a pretty fun discussion. This thread has been dry for months. This is kinda a random question, but out of curiosity, what other fighters do you play?

 

[Bowserboy3]

Not totally sure if this is the best place to ask (but all the other threads look a little dead so I chose here!), but here goes.

I am looking to learn some quick, basic Palutena stuff!

I have a "Low Tier" tournament happening at my weekly in a couple of days. Whether or not she is or is not a low tier character, she's amongst the list of characters available to use this time. I already have a decent-to-good Zelda, and an average Charizard, but I really want to use this opportunity to dabble with Palutena a bit. She's always interested me to some extent.

I have been messing about with her and getting to know her toolkit a bit over the past few days and learning autocancels, lag times etc (and misc things like her shield mechanic on Bair and Dash Attack).

I'm just looking for some basic advice, because I only have a couple of days left to practice a few things. Could I ask for some pointers please?

Just basic things like good combo starters, good combos etc. I would also appreciate a basic rundown on her best playstyle and how to play her in neutral/what moves to be using in neutral. Finally, things like best stages etc would be much appreciated.

Thanks in advance!

 

[kmpyj]

Not totally sure if this is the best place to ask (but all the other threads look a little dead so I chose here!), but here goes.

I am looking to learn some quick, basic Palutena stuff!

I have a "Low Tier" tournament happening at my weekly in a couple of days. Whether or not she is or is not a low tier character, she's amongst the list of characters available to use this time. I already have a decent-to-good Zelda, and an average Charizard, but I really want to use this opportunity to dabble with Palutena a bit. She's always interested me to some extent.

I have been messing about with her and getting to know her toolkit a bit over the past few days and learning autocancels, lag times etc (and misc things like her shield mechanic on Bair and Dash Attack).

I'm just looking for some basic advice, because I only have a couple of days left to practice a few things. Could I ask for some pointers please?

Just basic things like good combo starters, good combos etc. I would also appreciate a basic rundown on her best playstyle and how to play her in neutral/what moves to be using in neutral. Finally, things like best stages etc would be much appreciated.

Thanks in advance!

I'll probably be over simplifying things a tad, but I'll go over a basic rundown.

Preface: Palutena is a character with fast movement speed, but slow combat speed. So the best way to use her is to have patience, and make solid reads. You use that movement speed, along with the safe moves I'll mention below, to add pressure to your opponent. She ISN'T a killer! She won't have that guarantee Hoo-Hah combo, or that easy set up smash attack. She beats her opponents by dealing out damage first and then going for the kill. I know that is a very basic, and simplified response, but I can't stress enough how important that is to know.

On the ground, Jab is going to be your friend with this character. It comes out relatively quick, and has decent stun and reach to it. It's great for footsies, and is somewhat safe on block. DTilt is her best and most safe tilt, and it's also a relatively decent move. Like Jab, it has great reach and is good for footsies. Grab is pretty straightforward. Down Throw leads to a lot of follow ups, and will be your most used throw. Though be careful, if you run into a player who knows the Palutena MU, down throw to moves like Nair or Uair become useless. In this case switch to using either Fair, or my most recommend, Bair if you can pivot fast enough. Near a ledge, down throw (DI'ed) to Bair can actually kill. An example of this was done by Prince Ramen when he fought against ZeRo. As for smash attacks, use them only as reads. Palutena can't afford to miss or have her smash attack be blocked. Dash attack hits hard, but is unsafe if blocked or missed. It's best to use either after a landed Fair, or when your opponent is about to attack due to those shield frames that you've mentioned. It can also kill too due to it's knockback.

In the air, Fair and Bair are going to be your best approach tools, along with Jab, DTilt, and Grab of course. Fair has little landing lag, and has excellent reach, and Bair has those shield frames, and it does decent damage and has strong knockback for an aerial. Nair comes out very, very quick, and is one of her best combo linkers. It can also be used as a pretty decent edge guard tool. Uair has a lot of landing lag, and for good reason. It is her best killing move imo. Your more likely to land this one more than her smash attacks, and when you do, the get sent flying straight up. Down throw into Uair is a kill combo, but it can be DI'ed. Dair is kinda straightforward, it's spikes people.

As for Specials, Auto Reticle is great for spacing and adding pressure to your opponent. It can also gimp players off stage as well. Reflect looks pretty basic, but there is more to it. For starters, it's unblockable if you hit a player with it. Great to catch players off guard. Of course, it also pushes people, but it can actually push players to their death when they're trying to recover, Little Mac and Cloud to name a couple. Warp is also a pretty decent move. I'm not sure if your familiar with Warp Canceling, but that option is always that at your disposal. Counter is pretty straightforward.

Quick Basic BnB's for this character:

Jab 1 > Jab 1

Jab 1 > Grab > DThrow

Jab 1 > Dash Attack

Jab 1 > *Insert Aerial* (specifically Fair, Nair, or Uair) if the percent is high, or fighting against lightweights.

*Fast Fall* Fair > Fair

Fair > Jab (You can even short hop with this at Neutral)

Fair > Dash Attack at roughly 25+ percent

DThrow > 1. *Insert Aerial*
2. Nair to Nair
3. Nair to Uair
4. Nair to Bair (if opponent pops on other side)
5. Nair to Fair

Nair > Nair > Nair > Uair in that order if on Battlefield and your hoping from Platform to Platform.

Best stage options for her IMO:

1. Battlefield or any Battlefield like variant (Dream Land 64, Miiverse, etc.) due to platforms
2. Smashvile or Town and City also due to Platforms.

Notable stages:

1. Final Destination isn't half bad for her. Though it does leave her to resort to a Dog-Fight like match.
2. Lylat Cruise is pretty decent with also due to Platforms, but recovering could be a bit wonky due to the stage tilting and whatnot.
3. Castle Siege is actually a pretty good alternative to Battlefield or Smashvile.

Sorry everything was all very simplified, but I have to head out shortly. Just thought I could quickly type something to help. If it also helps anymore, I made a guide video almost two years back. The material is still fresh to use, so you don't have to worry about it being outdated. It's 17 minutes long though. Sorry if that's too long, but it covers everything I know about the character, with a section at the end showing off combos (at 15:13). You don't have to look at the whole thing, but I would recommend it.

Guide Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srHs0E6NZBw

Anyway, hope this helps, and good luck at the Tourney!

Edit: Wait a minute, I remember you now. I thought your name sound familiar. I remember you commented here some months back. Welcome back! Scratch the guide video then cause I think you've already seen that, lol. Still good luck!

 

[sjb.dario]

kmpyj Yeah, I felt like this thread needed some discussion lol. It was still pretty fun discussing about it with you.

I haven't really been playing much due to college, but I have started to play USF4 again recently. I get too bored to grind, though, and, as I said earlier, I'm pretty busy these days. So I just end up playing it once in a while. I am looking to play more fighters though.

 

[sjb.dario]

Bowserboy3 Kmpyj pretty much posted everything you need. Palutena isn't too hard of a character imo, so it shouldn't take you too long to get used to playing as her. Good luck in the tourney!

 

[kmpyj]

kmpyj Yeah, I felt like this thread needed some discussion lol. It was still pretty fun discussing about it with you.

I haven't really been playing much due to college, but I have started to play USF4 again recently. I get too bored to grind, though, and, as I said earlier, I'm pretty busy these days. So I just end up playing it once in a while. I am looking to play more fighters though.

Ahh. Yeah I know the struggle. This week is finals, and I haven't really got around to touch much. The same day the Guilty Gear Rev 2 demo dropped I had to study for my US History final later that day.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Thanks for the advice kmpyj !

Yeah, I've been here before; last time it was to get some advice on how to fight against her. Now, it's to how to use her, haha!

Well it looks like I have more time to prepare; I had it in my mind the low tier tournament was this week, but it turns out it's happening at the end of the month, so that's good!

Quick question though, is Palutena's extended dash dance any good? Is there a good timing for it? Marth and Rosalina have really good ones and I put them to good use a lot in my play. Bayonetta and ZSS's aren't too good but their initial foxtrot's are really quick (ie you can foxtrot the other direction really quickly) so you can just keep doing those. How are these for Palutena? I'll likely put them to good use if they're practical.

Also, Palutena's perfect pivot looks so strange lmao.

 

[sjb.dario]

Thanks for the advice kmpyj !

Yeah, I've been here before; last time it was to get some advice on how to fight against her. Now, it's to how to use her, haha!

Well it looks like I have more time to prepare; I had it in my mind the low tier tournament was this week, but it turns out it's happening at the end of the month, so that's good!

Quick question though, is Palutena's extended dash dance any good? Is there a good timing for it? Marth and Rosalina have really good ones and I put them to good use a lot in my play. Bayonetta and ZSS's aren't too good but their initial foxtrot's are really quick (ie you can foxtrot the other direction really quickly) so you can just keep doing those. How are these for Palutena? I'll likely put them to good use if they're practical.

Also, Palutena's perfect pivot looks so strange lmao.

It's good to hear that the tourney will be happening later. More practice is always better!

Funny thing about Palutena's extended dash dance, actually... Her EDD's distance itself is average, so it's definitely not useless. However, the animation of how her dash ends makes it hard to tell when you can continue to EDD. It's very weird, and her EDD is definitely harder to pull off than with Marth for that reason. Her foxtrot is okay. Just make sure to get used to when her dash ends for obvious reasons.

And yes, Palutena's perfect pivot is weird as heck lol.

Oh, fun fact btw, her ledge get up is 10 frames slower than everyone else's. This can be used to your advantage if your opponent doesn't know this, since he/she'll most likely mistime the normal getup punish.

 

[Bowserboy3]

It's good to hear that the tourney will be happening later. More practice is always better!

Funny thing about Palutena's extended dash dance, actually... Her EDD's distance itself is average, so it's definitely not useless. However, the animation of how her dash ends makes it hard to tell when you can continue to EDD. It's very weird, and her EDD is definitely harder to pull off than with Marth for that reason. Her foxtrot is okay. Just make sure to get used to when her dash ends for obvious reasons.

And yes, Palutena's perfect pivot is weird as heck lol.

Oh, fun fact btw, her ledge get up is 10 frames slower than everyone else's. This can be used to your advantage if your opponent doesn't know this, since he/she'll most likely mistime the normal getup punish.

I'll give things a look, see if I can get a good feel for them.

But the last point is interesting. So it's slower... in the fact that when you press regular getup, she gets up 10 frames slower than normal? Are her invulnerability frames correct for it too?

 

[sjb.dario]

Bowserboy3 That's correct.

Every normal get up has 2 frames of vulnerability. Since Palutena takes 10 frames longer to get up to the ledge using normal get up, she also has 10 more frames of intangibility than others.

Here's the actual data if you're interested:
http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/LedgeGetup

 

[sjb.dario]

Bowserboy3 A little late, but how did the low-tier tourney go?

 

[Bowserboy3]

Bowserboy3 A little late, but how did the low-tier tourney go?

Aha, I got the date mixed up; it's next week!

I've been practicing some Palutena stuff alongside my Zelda and I feel pretty good about them both, so we'll see how it goes!

 

[sjb.dario]

Aha, I got the date mixed up; it's next week!

I've been practicing some Palutena stuff alongside my Zelda and I feel pretty good about them both, so we'll see how it goes!

Good to hear. Didn't know you have a Zelda, too.
Good luck on the tourney!

 

[Bowserboy3]

Good to hear. Didn't know you have a Zelda, too.
Good luck on the tourney!

Oh yeah, Zelda is probably my best lower tiered character. It started off as a bit of a joke, and then I just started putting a bit of time into her now and then. She's by no means one of my best characters, and not one I'd seriously consider using in a real tournament, but if we consider the game has 58 characters, she's probably one of my top 10 best.

Zelda is quite fun to me, but at the same time she also makes me want to kill myself. Some of the things she has are so bad it's upsetting lmao.

 

[Rran]

Aha, I got the date mixed up; it's next week!

How did you doooooo...??

 

[Bowserboy3]

How did you doooooo...??

Worse than I'd hoped, but average overall.

I ended up relying on Zelda for most of the time, but I cannot deal with Little Mac as Zelda.

Unfortunately for me, I had to get through two Mac's, so I ended up going Palutena for those, and she worked really well for those.

It was unfortunate and extremely strange how I lost though. We were on Lylat and I was Zelda. Puff tried to rest me and failed, so I was about to go for the Up B elevator, and I started Up B, angled upwards, but Zelda didn't go upwards; she decided to go left and straight off the stage! I am not totally sure why it happened, but I managed to replicate it again. I'm thing it has something to do with the tilt on Lylat, similar to how when you use Up B with Zelda and Palutena on sloped walls and go the opposite way.

Alas, Palutena was really fun. I think I might go back to her soon.

 

[Rran]

So apparently a Palutena player (TLTC) made it to 33 at Evo... can't remember the last time we had a representation this high at such a stacked event, but I'm happy :D

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

It took me a good number of days, but I've finally finished developing my newly revised moveset hack for Palutena. You can all check it out at the following link...

http://gamebanana.com/gamefiles/4671

 

[snook]

Hey here's a dumb thing you probably will never get in bracket but might look cool if you do lol.

Spoiler

https://gfycat.com/LeanLittleAmericanpainthorse

Pretty situational, only tried it on the bigger characters and DK is the only one you don't have to do a reverse A.R to get the lock. Only works if they di wrong( or don't di at all) and do nothing after Fair (or try to jump)

Percent varies as well depending on the character, worked around 20-25% on DK but 10-15% on charizard (tbf though I only tested this for like 20 minutes lol)

So yeah more pointless tech that won't help anyone.

 

[sjb.dario]

Quick question. Does d-tilt reach below the ledge like u-smash? I tried checking the hurtboxes of Palu's d-tilt, but it's really hard to tell just from looking at that.

From what I got, it seems like it doesn't, but I'm a pretty crappy tester.

 

[kmpyj]

Quick question. Does d-tilt reach below the ledge like u-smash? I tried checking the hurtboxes of Palu's d-tilt, but it's really hard to tell just from looking at that.

From what I got, it seems like it doesn't, but I'm a pretty crappy tester.

I mean it should. Unless Sakurai un-patched it out then it should still hit under the ledge. It wasn't always like that though. Forgot what update Sakurai added that in.

 

[sjb.dario]

I mean it should. Unless Sakurai un-patched it out then it should still hit under the ledge. It wasn't always like that though. Forgot what update Sakurai added that in.

I double checked it. It doesn't reach under the ledge.

I'm not sure, but I feel like d-tilt is still such an underrated move when an opponent is hanging on the ledge. The disjoint on it allows Palu to challenge get up attacks and a good amount of ledge aerial attacks. D-tilt ends deceptively fast, so if the move misses somehow, or if you mistime it, you can just get into shield or jump away immediately. I should also add that d-tilt is a rather good kill move near the edge of the stage, so landing a hit with it would be rewarding.

I just feel like this needs to be said because a good chunk of Palu players I saw don't use this move near ledges. I understand people using u-smash to try catching ledge snaps, but this is too risky of a move to use consistently. I also saw people u-tilting near ledge, but I think d-tilt is far safer and yields just about as much reward as an u-tilt does.

Plz d-tilt more, ppl.

 

[snook]

I double checked it. It doesn't reach under the ledge.

I'm not sure, but I feel like d-tilt is still such an underrated move when an opponent is hanging on the ledge. The disjoint on it allows Palu to challenge get up attacks and a good amount of ledge aerial attacks. D-tilt ends deceptively fast, so if the move misses somehow, or if you mistime it, you can just get into shield or jump away immediately. I should also add that d-tilt is a rather good kill move near the edge of the stage, so landing a hit with it would be rewarding.

I just feel like this needs to be said because a good chunk of Palu players I saw don't use this move near ledges. I understand people using u-smash to try catching ledge snaps, but this is too risky of a move to use consistently. I also saw people u-tilting near ledge, but I think d-tilt is far safer and yields just about as much reward as an u-tilt does.

Plz d-tilt more, ppl.

I find doing jab covers the same options as dtilt, only you don't have to commit as hard due to shorter animation time and ability to shield after. I find throwing out one or two jabs while they hang on the ledge and then shielding is a good way to bait out a get up attack or roll, which you can then react to with a shield grab or turn around dash grab. If they're hasty with their option it can cover normal get up, ledge jump and, depending on the character, get up attack though it may trade with that.
Dtilt can certainly do the same job but I feel it's less versatile due to lack of follow ups after and frame data. On characters with bad recovery though I could see it being more useful at high percents to kill, like you said, via gimps.

And if I recall to get the hit under the ledge you have to space it so the middle part is above the ledge or something like that can't really remember, but the hit knocks them upwards, rather than away from you, and has less knockback than the tipper hit. I don't remember that being patched out but either way it's pretty hard to hit and not really worth going for. I've definitely hit it a few times on Falcon's recovery leading to air dodge read dairs.

 

[sjb.dario]

I find doing jab covers the same options as dtilt, only you don't have to commit as hard due to shorter animation time and ability to shield after. I find throwing out one or two jabs while they hang on the ledge and then shielding is a good way to bait out a get up attack or roll, which you can then react to with a shield grab or turn around dash grab. If they're hasty with their option it can cover normal get up, ledge jump and, depending on the character, get up attack though it may trade with that.
Dtilt can certainly do the same job but I feel it's less versatile due to lack of follow ups after and frame data. On characters with bad recovery though I could see it being more useful at high percents to kill, like you said, via gimps.

The single jab idea is not bad as well. I used to use that option before, myself, until I got into using d-tilt more.

Here's the frame data for both for reference:

Jab 1:
Hitbox Active: 8-10
FAF: 26

D-Tilt:
Hitbox Active: 14-24
FAF: 40

There's a 16-frame window that leaves Palutena vulnerable after throwing out both attacks. This means that for both jab 1 and d-tilt, it takes the same time to shield after the moves "stop hitting".

Jab 1 may have the advantage of coming out nearly twice as faster as d-tilt. But the problem with jab 1 is, it is only active for 3 frames (which is not even 12% of the whole move), leaves her vulnerable just as long as d-tilt after the hitbox sequence ends, and doesn't reach as far (only being slightly disjointed). On the other hand, despite having a long start up, d-tilt is active for 11 frames (which is over 25% of the move), leaves her vulnerable just as long as jab 1, and reaches very far (disjointed too!). If anything, I feel like it would be harder to punish people getting up from ledge with jab 1. Also, it's more likely to win trades with d-tilt than with jab 1, considering the hitbox's range and location of both attacks.

Also, the low startup of d-tilt may look daunting at first. But, another important fact is that nearly any actions a person can take while hanging on the ledge are pretty slow in general, so the move finally attacking at frame 14 isn't as bad as it sounds when used to pressure opponents on the ledge. And when you factor in the 11-frame hitbox window, the move is even more yielding. Of course, if all else fails, you can always shield right afterward. It's not like jab 1 ends any faster after the hitbox window ends. And it's definitely not like jab 1 starts fast enough anyway (frame 8 jab lol).

As for follow-ups, I feel like trying to create a chance to make a jab -> something combo on ledge is too inconsistent. Doing this requires proper spacing with jab 1, but considering the different options the ledge provides, the opponent can end up anywhere, and your spacing can get seriously messed up in many cases. There's also DI to consider, too. At this point, I think it's safer and more rewarding to just try to land the d-tilt and send the opponent away from the stage to force him/her to try and recover again. Of course, you can land a kill if the opponent is high enough, too.

Oh, and I'm not entirely sure about this, but I think d-tilt has a better knockback than f-air or b-air if sweetspotted. In this case, it would be a more consistent killing tool than finishing the more risky jab combo with one of those two aerials. I'm not 100% sure on this though.

And if I recall to get the hit under the ledge you have to space it so the middle part is above the ledge or something like that can't really remember, but the hit knocks them upwards, rather than away from you, and has less knockback than the tipper hit. I don't remember that being patched out but either way it's pretty hard to hit and not really worth going for. I've definitely hit it a few times on Falcon's recovery leading to air dodge read dairs.

Yeah, I've done that before, too. I don't think it's too bad though. I just connected it with a f-air, and it's not too hard to react to it.

I still think d-tilt is more effective than jab when used as a ledge-pressuring tool. Really, the only real disadvantage i see for d-tilt when compared to jab is its start up time. But considering how it takes time for the opponent to get back on to the stage from ledge and how slow jab still is, I think the pros of d-tilt outweigh the pros of jab 1.

It just feels safer and more consistent.

 

[sjb.dario]

I forgot to mention one small detail about d-tilt.

Palutena's d-tilt has a very interesting property called trample.

I think you know this, but in case you don't (or in case others actually reading this don't know), if a move has a trample property, it can beat out any regular attacks (not counting transcendent attacks like aerials). This means that, if my memories are correct, Palutena's d-tilt won't clank with a ledge get up attack; it'll just flat out beat it and damage the opponent. This isn't something her jab 1 can do, since it's only a regular attack and not a trampling move.

One thing that's unfortunate is that trampling moves lose to transcendent attacks, including aerials. This means that although Palu's d-tilt would be able to beat ledge aerials with no disjoints for obvious reasons, it won't be able to beat ledge aerials with disjoints (like Marth's f-air or Palu's u-air below ledge).

I know it isn't too much, but I still wanted to add this small advantage d-tilt has over jab 1 in terms of pressuring on ledge.

 

[sjb.dario]

I've been thinking.

Maybe OoS N-air isn't such a bad idea in stages with platforms.

It's still most likely a terrible idea if you're trying to use it purely as a punish move, but it might be different if you're trying to use it defensively in stages with platforms. For instance, on Battlefield, Palutena's N-air autocancels when she full-hop N-airs from the stage floor to the middle platform. If Palutena wants to get away from oppressive shield pressure while she's on the lowest floor of the stage, she might be able to get away from it by full-hop N-airing to the middle platform. If she's getting pressured on the middle platform, she can either short-hop N-air to the ledge or the floor, or she can full-hop N-air to the top-most platform, and so on. Basically, this might be a decent "gtfo" tool.

There are two advantages the "Full-hop OoS N-air onto the upper platform" technique has over OoS D-air. First one is that N-air's hitbox comes out on frame 5 while d-air's hitbox comes out on frame 10. The second one is that the "full-hop OoS N-air onto the upper platform" technique would autocancel upon landing on the upper platform while the "OoS short hop d-air" would cause landing lag upon landing on the ground.

The single but significant disadvantage OoS N-air would have compared to OoS D-air, however, is that OoS N-air would be nearly impossible (if not actually impossible) to use aggressively. OoS D-air, despite being twice as slower than OoS N-air, can be used to directly punish the opponent. Obviously, full-hop N-air wouldn't be able to do this. Also, another disadvantage would be that OoS N-air would be super limited in stages with no platforms, like Final Destination and Town & City's phase when no platforms are around.

I seriously doubt OoS N-air would ever completely replace OoS D-air, but I think using OoS N-air can be used in addition to OoS D-air for some good shield-game mixups.

Just a thought.

 

[QrowinSP]

I made a video about Palutena aimed at people who only know her from smash. Would it be okay to post here, or is that kind of self-promotion frowned upon?

 

[Rran]

For what's worth, I don't mind you posting it!

 

[QrowinSP]

For what's worth, I don't mind you posting it!

Alrighty then!

 

[Rran]

I enjoyed that--your assessment of the character rises above the typical fanboy fawning and, instead, addresses her less-than-flattering characteristics, but only so as to highlight the dynamic relationship she has with Pit.

Thumbs up, mate

 

[kmpyj]

Alrighty then!

Well said my friend. First time I've ever seen anyone tackle on how well of a Goddess Palutena is.

 

[QrowinSP]

I enjoyed that--your assessment of the character rises above the typical fanboy fawning and, instead, addresses her less-than-flattering characteristics, but only so as to highlight the dynamic relationship she has with Pit.

Thumbs up, mate

Any true Palutena fan loves her largely in part due to how flawed she is.

 

[sjb.dario]

The only flaw that matters to me most is how unviable she is.

 

[QrowinSP]

The only flaw that matters to me most is how unviable she is.

Ouch. Very true though.

 

[andimidna]

Oof
Pls buff