Miracle Of Light - Palutena in SSB4 (Featuring Cereza from Bayonetta-series)

[PHP]

Aw, I'm sorry to hear the Lady Palutena. Don't worry, hopeful Sakuria will give you some buffs soon!

Maybe on the 30th

 

[TheRealPalutena]

Messing around with the new Shield properties. Her Bair / Smashes (U can probably shield break someone if u catch them overshielding..still hard cause of its speed) all have really good shield damage now.

On a different subject: Has anyone REALLY experimented with Palutena's Extended Dash Dancing? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azRrqKUJ-5o like shown here.

I originally thought it was very impractical with her but after practicing it yesterday I feel like it can be used at least for spacing mindgames instead of having to shorthop all of the time >.<

 

[PHP]

Messing around with the new Shield properties. Her Bair / Smashes (U can probably shield break someone if u catch them overshielding..still hard cause of its speed) all have really good shield damage now.

On a different subject: Has anyone REALLY experimented with Palutena's Extended Dash Dancing? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azRrqKUJ-5o like shown here.

I originally thought it was very impractical with her but after practicing it yesterday I feel like it can be used at least for spacing mindgames instead of having to shorthop all of the time >.<

Shield endurance was decreased so they can't take hits as well. And apparently her explosive flame's final hit doesn't hit through shield anymore. She literally got nerfed custom moves this patch. Sakurai why?! You can't tell me he doesn't hate this character

 

[MysteriousSilver]

I did break a shield last night in friendlies without even trying, which has never happened before. I forget what did the breaking, but I think it was bair.

Not likely to happen much in a real match, but it seems more possible now

 

[Maraphy]

Shield endurance was decreased so they can't take hits as well. And apparently her explosive flame's final hit doesn't hit through shield anymore. She literally got nerfed custom moves this patch. Sakurai why?! You can't tell me he doesn't hate this character

The EF nerf was probably because it's easier to break shields; if someone is shielding too much you can punish them hard with normal moves now, rather than needing to use EF.

Lightweight's "nerf" was a bug fix they've long been ignoring that people have criticized since the beginning... she's still amazing in customs, she doesn't even need constant Lightweight. Now people won't be able to call us cheap.

 

[PHP]

I guess you're right but I still think she should have gotten at least a buff this patch. She's worse than Ganon now because he gets buffs that actually improve him. All Palutena got in 9 patches that's significant enough to get noted is angle changes with dtilt, hit box fix with up tilt. The damage increases don't even matter if every kill move she has can be easily avoided with either DI or shielding

 

[Maraphy]

RedCap-BlueSpikes Was that you in that custom tourney just now?

GG man, the lag tho X_X

 

[RedCap-BlueSpikes]

(just gonna re-post what I said in the other thread)

Hmm?

*Checks player history*

Oh, I suppose it was! Yeah, GG. Sorry about my connection, it's pretty inconsistent around that time of night.

 

[MysteriousSilver]

How do you guys feel about chasing ROB offstage?

I fought a ROB for the first time last night, and since I had no experience against him I just waited around instead of challenging his recovery without knowledge, but especially against heavier characters Palu needs those early kills and I'd like to be able to keep him away if it's reasonable

 

[Eisal]

As long as you're above him, you can approach with f-air or perhaps even a d-air.

B-air is good too.

 

[kmpyj]

How do you guys feel about chasing ROB offstage?

I fought a ROB for the first time last night, and since I had no experience against him I just waited around instead of challenging his recovery without knowledge, but especially against heavier characters Palu needs those early kills and I'd like to be able to keep him away if it's reasonable

To add on to what Eisal said, I also find using Nair is a great off stage move as well. It could end in either 3 ways, with one being less likely. Either A, Nair hits your opponent; B, you hit your opponent but your opponent hits you and you cancel your opponent out while slightly spiking them; Or C, your opponent hits you and the attack does nothing. C is the less likely option, it's either going to be A or B.

 

[Maraphy]

Ryo's been doing a solid job repping Palutena in BH5 (though he got matched up against a pikachu and diddy in doubles, which was unfortunate)

 

[MysteriousSilver]

I've started using the hit on reflect to poke people's shields when they're above me on platforms and it's hilarious

Nothing amazing but 5 damage is 5 damage, and I feel like it will encourage people not to sit in shield on platforms and that can lead to bigger rewards for us.

 

[TheRealPalutena]

Can anybody critique my overall gameplay for doubles in these videos. I am still learning how to truly play doubles since I got an official partner now >.<


https://youtu.be/AVaeB2JrjBQ?list=PLOIVDZCiJchE_TpKRI77lJyKzVgpeIN4v (Winners Semis, Game starts @ 2:30)
https://youtu.be/TKnvecWngDs?list=PLOIVDZCiJchE_TpKRI77lJyKzVgpeIN4v (W finals, Game starts @ 2:03)
https://youtu.be/uYSzj7sA1_g?list=PLOIVDZCiJchE_TpKRI77lJyKzVgpeIN4v (G finals, Game starts @ 5:45)

I feel like I played a lil sloppy in some matches. So I'm looking for advice on what I could be doing better (In general) and how could I be assisting my partner better. Thanks in advanced <3

Edit: My mistake...I should have posted this in video thread >.<...

 

[kmpyj]

If I could change anything about Palutena without changing her default set (basically a balance patch) I would change:

1. Decrease the endlag in Reflect

2. Decrease the endlag in Forward Smash

3. Decrease the endlag in Down Smash

4. Increase the attack frames on Up Smash (I always felt Up Smash's endlag was understandable)

5. Slightly decrease the endlag in Up Tilt

6. Decrease the endlag in Forward Tilt

7. Bring the Infinite Lightweight and Super Speed Exploit back.

8. Bring back Counter Slide.

9. Decrease the endlag in Up Air

But yeah that's just about it. I've learned how to make do, but it wouldn't hurt to get some kind of buffs.

 

[Maraphy]

If I had the opportunity to redesign her ENTIRE moveset, I would actually keep all of her aerials the way they are except make her D-air this: http://imdsound.tumblr.com/post/127611845635/palutena-sketch

..as for the rest of her moves that's another story

 

[kmpyj]

If I had the opportunity to redesign her ENTIRE moveset, I would actually keep all of her aerials the way they are except make her D-air this: http://imdsound.tumblr.com/post/127611845635/palutena-sketch

..as for the rest of her moves that's another story

Yeah, I was kinda hoping for a lot more light based attacks with her moveset when I first thought of it. The way she fights in this game, makes me think she just holding back.

But nevertheless, I'm glad we at least got her in. Some Smash player's character requests we're not so fortunate.

 

[PHP]

If I could change anything about Palutena without changing her default set (basically a balance patch) I would change:

1. Decrease the endlag in Reflect

2. Decrease the endlag in Forward Smash

3. Decrease the endlag in Down Smash

4. Increase the attack frames on Up Smash (I always felt Up Smash's endlag was understandable)

5. Slightly decrease the endlag in Up Tilt

6. Decrease the endlag in Forward Tilt

7. Bring the Infinite Lightweight and Super Speed Exploit back.

8. Bring back Counter Slide.

9. Decrease the endlag in Up Air

But yeah that's just about it. I've learned how to make do, but it wouldn't hurt to get some kind of buffs.

Forward tilt needs less startup, more hit boxes, and less end lag. This move is near useless atm

Less start up and end lag, and a wider hit box on down smash

Reflect needs a stronger push, less end lag, and it needs to stay out longer

She needs
startup invincibility on her warp

Auroreticle on the other hand needs to be completely reworked. It can go in one of 2 directions:
1) it has less startup and more knock back
Or 2) it keeps the startup it has, but the marker follows the opponent until it fires the shots

Her counter needs to cut 4 frames of start up or they need to give it more bkb

 

[Underhill]

I don't know if this post belongs here, but I'll say it anyway. If you guys ever have a Palutena amiibo, then how have you ever got her to kill you so early below 80%.
I was Jigglypuff in 8-man smash 4-man team with my amiibos, one time and my Palutena amiibo and I were the only ones left. Palutena was at 150% and I was 57%, and she caught me off guard with a fresh up-smash with a lot of rage, giving me no time to react and she killed me so early and I was like "WTF".

 

[Shrokatii]

Forward tilt needs less startup, more hit boxes, and less end lag. This move is near useless atm

Less start up and end lag, and a wider hit box on down smash

Reflect needs a stronger push, less end lag, and it needs to stay out longer

She needs
startup invincibility on her warp

Auroreticle on the other hand needs to be completely reworked. It can go in one of 2 directions:
1) it has less startup and more knock back
Or 2) it keeps the startup it has, but the marker follows the opponent until it fires the shots

Her counter needs to cut 4 frames of start up or they need to give it more bkb

She needs intangibility on the end of her warp too. I've somehow been hit right before I grab the ledge way too much because of those weird extra frames

Might be wrong about this but that what it seems lol

I don't know if this post belongs here, but I'll say it anyway. If you guys ever have a Palutena amiibo, then how have you ever got her to kill you so early below 80%.
I was Jigglypuff in 8-man smash 4-man team with my amiibos, one time and my Palutena amiibo and I were the only ones left. Palutena was at 150% and I was 57%, and she caught me off guard with a fresh up-smash with a lot of rage, giving me no time to react and she killed me so early and I was like "WTF".

Actually the higher leveled amiibo they are, the have higher defense and attack stuff

 

[Underhill]

Actually the higher leveled amiibo they are, the have higher defense and attack stuff

I know, but I'm asking if you ever died so early below 80% by your Palutena amiibo. Her up-smash hits more than a truck, thanks to a lot of rage on 150% and the move being fresh XD

 

[Shrokatii]

I know, but I'm asking if you ever died so early below 80% by your Palutena amiibo. Her up-smash hits more than a truck, thanks to a lot of rage on 150% and the move being fresh XD

Oh then no because I don't have a palutena amiibo

But I do have a pikachu amiibo that has killed me pretty early

 

[Underhill]

Oh then no because I don't have a palutena amiibo

But I do have a pikachu amiibo that has killed me pretty early

Ok. I bet his attacks hurt like h*** because I also have a Pikachu amiibo as well. One time, my Luigi amiibo caught me off guard with my back turn with a up-b and killed me early below 75%, at least. The Luigi amiibo's Fire jump punch does 42% of damage.

 

[Eisal]

Got major problems playing Palutena these days. Pikachu eats me.

 

[MysteriousSilver]

She needs intangibility on the end of her warp too. I've somehow been hit right before I grab the ledge way too much because of those weird extra frames

That's universal, actually, there's a 2 frame window of vulnerability when a character snaps a ledge

 

[Underhill]

Forward tilt needs less startup, more hit boxes, and less end lag. This move is near useless atm

Less start up and end lag, and a wider hit box on down smash

Reflect needs a stronger push, less end lag, and it needs to stay out longer

She needs
startup invincibility on her warp

Auroreticle on the other hand needs to be completely reworked. It can go in one of 2 directions:
1) it has less startup and more knock back
Or 2) it keeps the startup it has, but the marker follows the opponent until it fires the shots

Her counter needs to cut 4 frames of start up or they need to give it more bkb

Her up-throw can use more koing power like with Lucian's up-throw and Marth's.

 

[Melonz]

I'm having a serious character crisis after patch 1.1.1 with Palutena. I feel like all the hard work I invested into learning a low tier character has been for nothing. Patch 1.1.1 only served to destroy palutena's defensive game. Her OOS are not fast enough because her only decent OOS after 1.1.1 is grab and that can be easily outspaced. My moves don't feel any more safer (well except for back air, but that was already pretty ok) while on the other hand I've been getting literally overwhelmed by the new agressive playstyles that I can not punish due to her slow OOS options (OOS jab used to be good, and with the new shield mechanics it is not fast enough to punish anything). I play competitive locals (and even went to EVO) and have recently felt like quitting due to this patch. I stood with Palutena even after customs were no longer used because I believed I could still compete with her, but this patch (I feel) has indirectly nerfed the already low tier Palutena. What keeps you guys motivated to use her in this new meta? Any new techniques that make her viable? Shield stun has not made Palutena any safer, and has only made other character which had better frame data better.

 

[MysteriousSilver]

Any new techniques that make her viable?

She's not viable, and she never will be viable without some serious overhauls in patches. Do not play Palutena if you want to play a viable character and do well in bracket. Only play Palutena if you really like Kid Icarus but don't like Pit, or if you really like the unique things about her character (Dash attack/Bair, Usmash, Warp cancels etc.), or if she's your waifu or something. But even in those cases, remember that you're trading in Ws for those things. You WILL NOT get as far with Palu as you will picking almost the whole rest of the cast. We're all idiots (<3 you guys) for playing this character in a competitive environment. It's like trying to win a foot race in flip-flops.

That being said, while the shield changes didn't work any miracles for her, I personally think bair being safer is amazing. It's already a pretty reliable button since it beats out nearly every offensive option in the game, making it more spammable is great. Fair is also crazy safe now when spaced. Jab isn't safe exactly, but safe-r. The frames on everything are genuinely better, it's just that so much of our stuff is so crazy slow that it's nearly irrelevant.

 

[kmpyj]

I'm having a serious character crisis after patch 1.1.1 with Palutena. I feel like all the hard work I invested into learning a low tier character has been for nothing. Patch 1.1.1 only served to destroy palutena's defensive game. Her OOS are not fast enough because her only decent OOS after 1.1.1 is grab and that can be easily outspaced. My moves don't feel any more safer (well except for back air, but that was already pretty ok) while on the other hand I've been getting literally overwhelmed by the new agressive playstyles that I can not punish due to her slow OOS options (OOS jab used to be good, and with the new shield mechanics it is not fast enough to punish anything). I play competitive locals (and even went to EVO) and have recently felt like quitting due to this patch. I stood with Palutena even after customs were no longer used because I believed I could still compete with her, but this patch (I feel) has indirectly nerfed the already low tier Palutena. What keeps you guys motivated to use her in this new meta? Any new techniques that make her viable? Shield stun has not made Palutena any safer, and has only made other character which had better frame data better.

Tbh, patch 1.1.1 really hasn't affected me much if any. I still play the same way, and still get the same results.

One of my old problems with Palutena was I relied way too much on aerials. And you get seriously punish for mainly using aerials in Smash 4, especially for Palutena's case. It was a problem that stuck with me for awhile.

I tried making some quick fixes by getting faster with Palu, and using Jab more, but that only did but so much on characters like Sheik and Diddy. I came to the conclusion that I needed to improve my ground game.

So I started pivoting. Was surprised just how effective it was. With this, I made use of things like DTilt, UTilt, Grabs, and Jabs. Something that I knew of since launch, but never made use of (I blame Mario for that).

The results, are satisfying. I manage to make Second place in a local Tourney with her alone. And I'm starting to feel more comfortable fighting Sheik and Diddy. Zero, Pikachu, and Luigi are manageable, but I still need work with Rosy. That Luma ruins everything, lol. Even when I use Mario I still have a hard time. But than again, I haven't fought many Rosalinas, so that could be a reason. :/

 

[TheRealPalutena]

Tbh, patch 1.1.1 really hasn't affected me much if any. I still play the same way, and still get the same results.

One of my old problems with Palutena was I relied way too much on aerials. And you get seriously punish for mainly using aerials in Smash 4, especially for Palutena's case. It was a problem that stuck with me for awhile.

I tried making some quick fixes by getting faster with Palu, and using Jab more, but that only did but so much on characters like Sheik and Diddy. I came to the conclusion that I needed to improve my ground game.

So I started pivoting. Was surprised just how effective it was. With this, I made use of things like DTilt, UTilt, Grabs, and Jabs. Something that I knew of since launch, but never made use of (I blame Mario for that).

The results, are satisfying. I manage to make Second place in a local Tourney with her alone. And I'm starting to feel more comfortable fighting Sheik and Diddy. Zero, Pikachu, and Luigi are manageable, but I still need work with Rosy. That Luma ruins everything, lol. Even when I use Mario I still have a hard time. But than again, I haven't fought many Rosalinas, so that could be a reason. :/

I can't agree with this enough.

IMPROVE YOUR GROUND GAME WITH THIS CHARACTER. I used to basically shorthop>fastfall 24/7 simply because it made her movement ambiguous and things like empty jump>grab works alot on this game. But after a while people began punishing me lots for jumping around so much. So Eventually i had to sit back and think about what I could be doing differently and better and decided that learning to play grounded is something I had to work on. And as Kmpyj says...you will learn to use Utilt/Dilt/Jab and whatnot (still not using Ftilt doe) and @ my last local I showed much improvement.

As far as the patch goes...Hmm...It hasn't personally effected me all that much I guess from what I can tell. (aside from the really obvious things) Maybe I need to play it more.

I'm working on those Palutena extended Dash-Dances too. Its mad hard to do with her compared to most cast IMO but I think its worth it =p

 

[PHP]

Has anyone noticed any different with patch 1.1.2? Or is it just a Diddy fix?

 

[Lakuto]

If I could change anything about Palutena without changing her default set (basically a balance patch) I would change:

1. Decrease the endlag in Reflect

2. Decrease the endlag in Forward Smash

3. Decrease the endlag in Down Smash

4. Increase the attack frames on Up Smash (I always felt Up Smash's endlag was understandable)

5. Slightly decrease the endlag in Up Tilt

6. Decrease the endlag in Forward Tilt

7. Bring the Infinite Lightweight and Super Speed Exploit back.

8. Bring back Counter Slide.

9. Decrease the endlag in Up Air

But yeah that's just about it. I've learned how to make do, but it wouldn't hurt to get some kind of buffs.

I think the Dair needs more hitbox, at least ones that matches the actual animation.

 

[RedCap-BlueSpikes]

I'll always find it... interesting how us low(er)-level Palutena players constantly complain about her but almost all of the high(er)-level ones think she's decent. Like, I've yet to talk to a single well-placing Palutena who thinks she's blegh. It's really weird.

 

[MysteriousSilver]

I'll always find it... interesting how us low(er)-level Palutena players constantly complain about her but almost all of the high(er)-level ones think she's decent. Like, I've yet to talk to a single well-placing Palutena who thinks she's blegh. It's really weird.

My placings are largely unimpressive and I think she's trash, so I dunno, I guess that fits.

I'm just not seeing what she has to compete with the better characters in this game.

 

[RedCap-BlueSpikes]

It's challenging but people manage to compete against good players and good characters with her. Like, to give a couple examples, TLTC has beaten K9 and Zenyou before and Prince Ramen has taken sets off Wizzrobe multiple times over the months (Ramen beat Wizzy 3-1 in WFs at a local a couple weeks ago). I heard that IceNinja took games(???) off Ally at Summit, but I can't find any footage of the set so I'm not sure.

IDK. Sometimes I get a little doubtful and worry that I'm wrong about Palutena being decent-ish, but when I see/hear stuff like that I can't help but think "She can't be that bad if she's capable of something like this, right???".

 

[Lakuto]

I'll always find it... interesting how us low(er)-level Palutena players constantly complain about her but almost all of the high(er)-level ones think she's decent. Like, I've yet to talk to a single well-placing Palutena who thinks she's blegh. It's really weird.

She ain't a trash character at all. It's just that it's sometimes frustrating to play her when most of the time all you can rely on is her A moves... Tbh, I don't really like her custom too but that's all about taste right?

 

[kmpyj]

I'll always find it... interesting how us low(er)-level Palutena players constantly complain about her but almost all of the high(er)-level ones think she's decent. Like, I've yet to talk to a single well-placing Palutena who thinks she's blegh. It's really weird.

I always found Palutena to be decent, but her play style is just very.......different from the rest of the cast. I think that is what threw off players (including myself) when they first tried to pick her up. Coming from someone who mains Mario, Palutena was very difficult for me to learn.

I think the real problem is most players buy into tier list WAY too much. Automatically assuming your going to lose to Sheik is a bad mindset; you might as well forfeit the match. Sure, Sheik, Luigi, Pikachu, Rosalina, Zerosuit, and other high tiers are good, but they are only as good as the PLAYER makes them out to be. I can't tell you how many times at tournaments players thought Palutena was a great character after I finished a match with her. While I was flattered from the positive comments, I'd always tell them that in the mass, Palutena isn't considered good; which would come to a shock to them. Now there where some occasions where players laughed at me for picking Palutena (assuming they knew where she fell at by the mass), but they'd stopped laughing when the match was over.....

I won't be the one to say Palutena is for everyone, but it's up to the player on how good they make her. When you hit a weakness with her, do you try to acknowledge and correct it, or do you ignore it and give up? That goes for everyone, not just Palutena. You acknowledge their strengths and their weakness, and work your way around them. That is what maining a character means.

This wasn't directed at you or anything, and I don't mean to preach, but just felt it had to be said while the topic was up.

 

[MysteriousSilver]

I don't want to discourage anyone from playing a character they love, but neither do I want to lead some starry-eyed newbie into thinking they're likely to do well with Palutena. Unfortunately, a win here and there doesn't really mean anything other than that a character isn't 100% broken. I recall M2K losing to X or Espy or someone in Brawl, but no one in their right mind thinks Sonic is good in that game. Reflex did good things with Pokemon Trainer, but it was clear that he was an outlier, and it was a case of a player's skill exceeding that of what their character could usually do. Palutena players taking games off of people here and there is immensely impressive, moreso because of what she has to do to get that W. I mean, we're relying on mostly single incidents here as opposed to the domination even mid tier characters have in their regions.

The fact is that in a game with a cast as varied as Smash, some characters objectively do no have the tools to compete on the same level as others, and Palutena is extremely lacking in almost every category compared to the characters who are actually viable. It's possible to win a footrace in sandals, you just have to out run the other guy so hard. It's possible to win a game of chess starting with pieces missing but no one would ever think starting with missing pieces is any sort of advantage or equal to a full set. If your goal is high placings and win money in competitive Smash Brothers, you have chosen your character poorly. This character has -nothing- to compete with the likes of Shiek's neutral, Mario's safety, ZSS's combos and recovery options, quick attack and Pika's offstage game in general, MK death combos, ROB aerials and zoning, etc. etc.

If you're trying to get results with Palu, of course it's a terrible idea to think that Sheik is an auto L, and it's very possible to win. But it's important to understand that your character is weaker than theirs, understand why and how, and have a gameplan to work around that. Arrogance in our character's tools will not get us any farther than defeatism. It's tempting to look at the things that Palu can do and think they're pretty good, because they help improve her game in a vacuum, but they pale in comparison to the actual strong tools of the game.

If you're a fool like me and want to main the character anyways, by all means do so. Push her to her limits, understand everything she can do and understand how to overcome the areas she's lacking in. But don't for a moment think that you won't get much farther putting that effort into another character.

 

[Underhill]

It's challenging but people manage to compete against good players and good characters with her. Like, to give a couple examples, TLTC has beaten K9 and Zenyou before and Prince Ramen has taken sets off Wizzrobe multiple times over the months (Ramen beat Wizzy 3-1 in WFs at a local a couple weeks ago). I heard that IceNinja took games(???) off Ally at Summit, but I can't find any footage of the set so I'm not sure.

IDK. Sometimes I get a little doubtful and worry that I'm wrong about Palutena being decent-ish, but when I see/hear stuff like that I can't help but think "She can't be that bad if she's capable of something like this, right???".

I'll have to look those up when I find there. I always thought that she could be a mid-tier, but after doing more testing on her frame data and options, I was wrong unfortunately. Yeah, I say that she has the potential to be a mid-low tier along without customs and if she can do well on several MUs like , , and , then she may prove herself worthy of being alittle higher or so. At least she's better than Zelda.

 

[kmpyj]

Like MysteriousSilver said, we are all a bunch of fools for trying to main her. In a sense, I kind of like the idea of using a "bad character". Only makes it look good if you win with her right?

Lol, anyways, anyone up for any matches? They don't have to be ditto matches, but I'd just like to see where my Palu stands. I can't do today, but tomorrow I'm free if anyone wants to.