Mini Mafia Game Thread | Newbies are welcome! | Town wins Gheb's game | Zen next to host!

[Kantrip]

Yeah and I think the accusary tone of his posts and his general outlook on the game would justify his lynch.

Elaborate? That's pretty vague, man.

 

[Kantrip]

Whoops I'm still voting Xatres

Unvote

 

[Kantrip]

Why is Xatres a priority over DH Gheb?

Full reads please?

 

[Kantrip]

Xatres can definitely die. I will not let him get away with his "read" on Nabe and the fact that he feels the need to differentiate between the "scum" read on Nabe and the "Indy" read on DH is telling. A townie wouldn't care.

Unvote

This post doesn't read as reachy nor faked like Gheb scum pushes often are.

Why shouldn't a townie care?

Indy players and mafia players play very different games, which means they have different tells.

And DH, as for you saying I'm "only bringing this up since you voted for me," if you look at my earlier posts, you'll see that I hadn't taken a hard look at you or Gheb previously, because my attention was focused on RR/Nabe.

This lines up with both what I expect from Xatres and how I expect him to respond.

This interaction looks like TvT although I'm still wary of Gheb's original dislike for Xatres.

 

[Kantrip]

Vinyl town lean
Xatres town lean

I need to take another look at Ruy and Nabe later. Of the two I like Ruy more but I haven't looked at them too extensively

Gheb null with points leaning both ways

I've had a change of heart on Dark Horse, don't like his recent play

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Why is Xatres a priority over DH Gheb?

I never said he is?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I've had a change of heart on Dark Horse, don't like his recent play

Hm, I think DH actually has stepped it up a bit recently which is why I unvoted him. Maybe I give him a bit too much credit for it but I like the way he justified his push against Xatres. You think otherwse?

 

[Xatres]

Wow, talk about grinding to a halt.

If it will make you happy, Gheb, I'll do a reread sometime tonight and reevaluate my stances. I'll try to look at the game with fresh eyes and see if my opinions change. For now I'll say that I see DH's recent play as less "shaping up" and more "acquiescing to avoid getting lynched."

 

[Vinylic.]

V/LA for severe thunderstorm near me. Can't take chances of my computer frying.

 

[Xatres]

Thanks for the heads up, Vinyl. Stay safe.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Full reads please?

DH - scum lean
Xatres - no clue.
Nabe - scum
Gheb -town
Potassium- town lean
Vinyl -town
Ruy - Sly

 

[Xatres]

Did a reread, nothing really new to report other than figuring out how I mixed up the Nabe voting/unvoting thing. RR had an exchange with Vinyl about an unvote, which on first pass I accidentally mistake for being with Nabe.

I also left RR off my read list. He's in the town pile.

@ #HBC | Dark Horse - Still waiting on a more detailed response. You said you'd "get to it later."

 

[#HBC | Dark Horse]

So the order is a mess. I blame having to type all of this up on a phone.

Indy players and mafia players play very different games, which means they have different tells.

Not in this game. Right nowe, both anti-town factions have one player, know that there is another one-man anti-town faction, and have some method of removing a player. I don't see why they'd be playing signifigany different games toDay, which is why it's suspicious for you to make this distinction.

And DH, as for you saying I'm "only bringing this up since you voted for me," if you look at my earlier posts, you'll see that I hadn't taken a hard look at you or Gheb previously, because my attention was focused on RR/Nabe.

Speaking of that, what do you think of RR? I want you to go into more detail than "He's in my town pile."

Gheb was opportunistic because he jumped on scumreading something convenient that came up preemptively.

I still don't understand why you think what gheb was saying was opporitunistic. Was it because he was really quick to denounce the post?

There's no scum intent to saying reachy stuff if you admit it's reachy and don't try to stretch it to be more than it is.

But the bold is exactly what Xatres is doing. He's points are far too weak to be justified with "Yeah, I know my points are reachy." Saying it doesn't change anything.

You think Gheb is town right?

Ye

DH: His play has resembled what I have seen from indy in the few games I've played. He stated off avoiding direct interactions, playing things off as jokes, and generally trying to fly under the radar. Under legitimate pressure, he's quickly buckled and down whatever seems most likely to get people off his back. This includes voting Nabe when pressued by Gheb, and then finally starting asking questions when Vinyl pressured him about laying low. His play seems more interested in personal survival than anything else.

First of all, your distinction of indy raises flags.

I don't see where your "avoiding direct interactions." comes from. You mean not commenting on other players? Because, you know, you didn't do that either.

@mentions of questions: I had given questions earlier.

And you know what? I'll say that I am playing with a bit of survival mentality. You want to know why? I'm town, so if I were lynched today, and both mafia and cult targets go through successfully, it's 2v2v1. Unless town has a good (or lucky) doc/shrink, it's impossible to win. So if it wasn't obvious, I don't want to get lynched today.

 

[Xatres]

Welp, Dark Horse is definitely the cultist.

Vote: Dark Horse

Not in this game. Right nowe, both anti-town factions have one player, know that there is another one-man anti-town faction, and have some method of removing a player. I don't see why they'd be playing signifigany different games toDay, which is why it's suspicious for you to make this distinction.

Incorrect. Entirely incorrect. The cultist has to worry about drawing a NK, mafia doesn't. If the cultist gets killed N1, it's all over for his faction. He dies, he loses, end of story. If the mafia gets recruited, then he's still got a shot at winning with the cultist. The cultist will be looking to survive, just like nearly every indy role has to. The mafia has several options. He can ignore cultist in the Day phase and just try to kill him or the likely recruit. He can try to get the cultist lynched. Or he can even try to get himself recruited to increase his chances of winning.

There is absolutely zero percent chance that the two factions are playing the same game. You'd be fool to not examine player motivation with this information in mind.

Speaking of that, what do you think of RR? I want you to go into more detail than "He's in my town pile."

There's not that much to say that can't be inferred from other posts. I spent a lot of my early game looking closely at the RR/Nabe interaction. I view Nabe as the scum in that interaction. RR individually has been playing an active game with smart input and actual scumhunting.

But the bold is exactly what Xatres is doing. He's points are far too weak to be justified with "Yeah, I know my points are reachy." Saying it doesn't change anything.

I've already covered this pretty extensively, but you seem to be ignoring some of my earlier posts. Circumstantial evidence is perfectly valid, especially in a mini. And even if you don't think it's enough to convict, it IS enough to get conversation going and generate interactions.

First of all, your distinction of indy raises flags.

I don't see where your "avoiding direct interactions." comes from. You mean not commenting on other players? Because, you know, you didn't do that either.

If you were choosing to pay attention to another of my earlier posts, you would see that I was specifically mentioning your continued jokiness while most everyone else had moved out of RVS.

And you know what? I'll say that I am playing with a bit of survival mentality. You want to know why? I'm town, so if I were lynched today, and both mafia and cult targets go through successfully, it's 2v2v1. Unless town has a good (or lucky) doc/shrink, it's impossible to win. So if it wasn't obvious, I don't want to get lynched today.

Well stated. You ARE playing a survivalist game, which is EXACTLY what I expect indy to do in this situation. Town players should never play with the mindset of simply preserving their own life. Your job as town is to prevent all mislynches, not just your own.

 

[Xatres]

I'd also like to point out that one of biggest tells I see from indy players is blatantly ignoring posts if they can get away with it. You'll notice twice in DH's last post how he ignored posts I had already made that answered his objections, in the interest of just hammering his point over and over and hoping to gain momentum.

 

[Jdietz43]

With 7 alive it takes 4 to lynch!

[1] Red Ryu - Nabe
[1] Nabe - Red Ryu
[1] Xatres - Dark Horse
[1] Dark Horse - Xatres
[0] Gheb -
[0] Potassium -
[0] Vinyl

[3] Not Voting - Vinyl, Gheb, Potassium

Deadline is Midnight Central Standard Time Tomorrow, Thursday the 13th!

 

[Kantrip]

Hm, I think DH actually has stepped it up a bit recently which is why I unvoted him. Maybe I give him a bit too much credit for it but I like the way he justified his push against Xatres. You think otherwse?

I think the joking was non-conclusive and the justification for a Xatres push was opportunistic and reachy.

Didn't he piggyback off of your reasoning and call him scummy because he had reachy logic that he admitted was reachy?

 

[Kantrip]

@ Xatres - I ignored Vinyl's request to explain why I liked Dark Horse in the early game. Am I the cultist too?

 

[Vinylic.]

I hope I'm not looking at WiFOM.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Vote Xatres

Incorrect. Entirely incorrect. The cultist has to worry about drawing a NK, mafia doesn't. If the cultist gets killed N1, it's all over for his faction. He dies, he loses, end of story. If the mafia gets recruited, then he's still got a shot at winning with the cultist. The cultist will be looking to survive, just like nearly every indy role has to. The mafia has several options. He can ignore cultist in the Day phase and just try to kill him or the likely recruit. He can try to get the cultist lynched. Or he can even try to get himself recruited to increase his chances of winning.

There is absolutely zero percent chance that the two factions are playing the same game. You'd be fool to not examine player motivation with this information in mind.

Unless the mafioso somehow finds the cult recruiter on Day 1 it's his best bet by far to play it safe. All the other options are only viable if the mafioso is a very strong player because you have not accounted for the fact that the biggest concern of the mafioso is to make sure to not get lynched on Day 1. Since that also is the main concern of the cult leader, a townie will not see the difference between how a cult leaer ideally plays and how the mafioso ideally plays on Day 1. And right now Day 1 is all we have to draw our conclusions from. Their ways of playing this game will likely change over the course of the game based on what happens. As for toDay though, Dark Horse is right and you are not.

Well stated. You ARE playing a survivalist game, which is EXACTLY what I expect indy to do in this situation. Town players should never play with the mindset of simply preserving their own life.

I don't agree and would like you to back these claims up.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

@ #HBC | Nabe @ #HBC | Red Ryu

Would like to hear your input. Deadline's soon.

 

[#HBC | Dark Horse]

I'm getting hit by a nasty nor'easter, so there's a chance my power could go out. Right now I can still play, but it's still a possibility.

Didn't he piggyback off of your reasoning and call him scummy because he had reachy logic that he admitted was reachy?

I have explained multiple times how the fact that he said it was reachy doesn't change anything. Gheb also didn't even explain his reasoning for disliking Xatres until well after I started pushing him.

Incorrect. Entirely incorrect. The cultist has to worry about drawing a NK, mafia doesn't. If the cultist gets killed N1, it's all over for his faction. He dies, he loses, end of story. If the mafia gets recruited, then he's still got a shot at winning with the cultist. The cultist will be looking to survive, just like nearly every indy role has to. The mafia has several options. He can ignore cultist in the Day phase and just try to kill him or the likely recruit. He can try to get the cultist lynched. Or he can even try to get himself recruited to increase his chances of winning.

There is absolutely zero percent chance that the two factions are playing the same game. You'd be fool to not examine player motivation with this information in mind.

As gheb said, you know what happens when the mafia member is lynched D1? His faction loses. In addition, none of your reasoning for saying that I'm indy applies exlusivley to that faction, which is why it's shady for you to make that distinction.

RR individually has been playing an active game with smart input and actual scumhunting.

Thank you

I've already covered this pretty extensively, but you seem to be ignoring some of my earlier posts. Circumstantial evidence is perfectly valid, especially in a mini. And even if you don't think it's enough to convict, it IS enough to get conversation going and generate interactions.

You seem to be ignoring some of my earlier posts. Your reasons for pushing nabe were piss-poor excuses for circumstantial evidence and utterly reeks of of an opportunistic push on someone who other people think are scum.

If you were choosing to pay attention to another of my earlier posts, you would see that I was specifically mentioning your continued jokiness while most everyone else had moved out of RVS.

Unless you're talking about #3815, you had made a joke with your #3782, after I was done joking. If you are talking about my #3815, then quit reaching as much as you are.

Well stated. You ARE playing a survivalist game, which is EXACTLY what I expect indy to do in this situation. Town players should never play with the mindset of simply preserving their own life. Your job as town is to prevent all mislynches, not just your own.

http://i.imgur.com/PQpEprt.jpg

 

[#HBC | Dark Horse]

Also, let's take a moment to see how hypocritical Xatres is being here.

For now I'll say that I see DH's recent play as less "shaping up" and more "acquiescing to avoid getting lynched."

If it will make you happy, Gheb, I'll do a reread sometime tonight and reevaluate my stances.

You see how he's saying that I'm peddling to people so I don't get lynched, and then he goes to blatantly peddle to a person that thinks he's scum? Yeah.

 

[Xatres]

@ Xatres - I ignored Vinyl's request to explain why I liked Dark Horse in the early game. Am I the cultist too?

Two things.

1) It's about consistency. Failing to respond/recognize a single post isn't necessarily incriminating. Failing to respond/recognize several is.

2) Early game DH was still in "fly under the radar mode," which often results in town-leans and nulls thanks to the fact that they contribute little content. You had very little content with which to form your opinion at that point anyways, so I don't think you weren't entirely unjustified in not offering a long, drawn out explanation for your read.

 

[Xatres]

Unless the mafioso somehow finds the cult recruiter on Day 1 it's his best bet by far to play it safe. All the other options are only viable if the mafioso is a very strong player because you have not accounted for the fact that the biggest concern of the mafioso is to make sure to not get lynched on Day 1. Since that also is the main concern of the cult leader, a townie will not see the difference between how a cult leaer ideally plays and how the mafioso ideally plays on Day 1. And right now Day 1 is all we have to draw our conclusions from. Their ways of playing this game will likely change over the course of the game based on what happens. As for toDay though, Dark Horse is right and you are not.

Your reasoning fails to take into account the variables I examined in my original explanation. Two players with different objectives, win conditions, threats, and means of survival will ALWAYS play differently. Even if you believe that their ideal play D1 should be survival, there will be differences in their playstyle on a basic, psychological level.

Think of it this way: Two criminals are trying to get aboard an American Airlines flight from DC to Miami. One is committed a crime and is looking to flee the city, the other has a bomb strapped to his chest and plans to blow up the plain. Ideally, both men should be trying not to draw attention to themselves. They both should be acting like normal passengers in order to achieve their goals.

Psychologically, however, this is impossible. The first man, who alrady committed a crime, will likely feel more and more relieved as the day goes on. Each step takes him farther away from the police and closer to safety. He may start off looking nervous and exciteable, but by the time he reaches his gate, he might just sit quietly and feel happy for having gotten there. The second man, meanwhile, knows that each step brings him through another layer of security. He knows that every person he passes has a chance of seeing him act shifty and reporting him. If he gets searched by a guard, he's done for. Psychologically, he will behave differently.

Even though these two men ideally should act the same to achieve their goals, psychologically their actions will be different. It's the same with mafia vs indy. They have different goals and different tools. Even if their ideal play was to simply lynch the other person, they still have a lot going on behind the scenes that may give them away. THAT'S where the difference between mafia tells and indy tells comes from.

I don't agree and would like you to back these claims up.

Pretty sure I explained what I meant in the rest of the quote that you failed to include. Town players should be interested in preserving all town life, not just their own. Playing selfishly doesn't help reveal scum, it just creates a bubble of drawing or deflecting attention, depending on who notices what you are doing.

 

[Xatres]

The difference between your joking and mine was that you kept it going under direct pressure.

As for me doing a reread... I'll always do a reread if asked in a mini game. It's like 4 pages. Anyone who wouldn't is just lazy. In addition, if I were looking to truly acquiesce, I would have used the reread as a chance to change my stances and curry favor. Instead I stuck to my guns under pressure, which is kind of the opposite of being hypocritical.

Also, I reported you for flaming. If you want to insult me, at least do it openly instead of trying to dodge moderation with an outside link.

Respect other users. Flaming (insulting, heated arguing with) other members is not allowed. Demeaning or derogatory comments based on race, religion, sexual orientation, culture, ethnicity, handicap, nationality or gender will not be tolerated.

 

[Xatres]

Above post directed at DH, if the context wasn't clear.

 

[#HBC | Nabe]

Would lynch DH/Xatres.

 

[#HBC | Nabe]

Vote: Xatres

 

[Xatres]

That's L-1.

I can claim, or someone can unvote so we're not sitting a breath away from a mislynch.

DH, Gheb, and Nabe are all voting for me. Guaranteed at least 1 scum on this wagon (maybe both).

 

[#HBC | Dark Horse]

Your reasoning fails to take into account the variables I examined in my original explanation. Two players with different objectives, win conditions, threats, and means of survival will ALWAYS play differently. Even if you believe that their ideal play D1 should be survival, there will be differences in their playstyle on a basic, psychological level.

Think of it this way: Two criminals are trying to get aboard an American Airlines flight from DC to Miami. One is committed a crime and is looking to flee the city, the other has a bomb strapped to his chest and plans to blow up the plain. Ideally, both men should be trying not to draw attention to themselves. They both should be acting like normal passengers in order to achieve their goals.

Psychologically, however, this is impossible. The first man, who alrady committed a crime, will likely feel more and more relieved as the day goes on. Each step takes him farther away from the police and closer to safety. He may start off looking nervous and exciteable, but by the time he reaches his gate, he might just sit quietly and feel happy for having gotten there. The second man, meanwhile, knows that each step brings him through another layer of security. He knows that every person he passes has a chance of seeing him act shifty and reporting him. If he gets searched by a guard, he's done for. Psychologically, he will behave differently.

Even though these two men ideally should act the same to achieve their goals, psychologically their actions will be different. It's the same with mafia vs indy. They have different goals and different tools. Even if their ideal play was to simply lynch the other person, they still have a lot going on behind the scenes that may give them away. THAT'S where the difference between mafia tells and indy tells comes from.

This is a dumb example. Right now, mafia and indy have the same objectives (not get lynched to day) same wincons (be the majority, including over the other anti-town faction), and same threats (town, other anti-town faction). A more accurate example would be two terrorists, just with different operations once they get on the plane (say, one blowing the plane up and the other holding everyone hostage). They're both going always be on alert, as if either of them get stopped in the airport, they they will be unable to continue with their goals. This is more similar to the game, as if mafia/cult get lynched d1, then they are unable to continue with their goals.

The difference between your joking and mine was that you kept it going under direct pressure.

Was I really supposed to think that gheb had gotten a scum read off of a grand total of 2 posts, one of which was talking about pcp? No, and that's why I was joking about gheb's posts: I never thought he was serious, and even if he was, it wasn't much of a threat.

As for me doing a reread... I'll always do a reread if asked in a mini game. It's like 4 pages. Anyone who wouldn't is just lazy. In addition, if I were looking to truly acquiesce, I would have used the reread as a chance to change my stances and curry favor. Instead I stuck to my guns under pressure, which is kind of the opposite of being hypocritical.[/quote]

Do you mean this in terms of how nabe asked for you to explore them again, and how gheb liked it? In that case, why was your post addressed to gheb.

Also, I reported you for flaming. If you want to insult me, at least do it openly instead of trying to dodge moderation with an outside link.

I'm sorry, I just really, really used that image someday, and you happened to be the guy on the receiving end.

Would lynch DH/Xatres.

This reeks

 

[Xatres]

I love how both my scumpicks seem to agree with me about the other to some degree, yet both want me to die because I'm drawing attention to them as well.

DH, I'm not sure how else to explain my point about scum vs indy, but then I don't think you're going to agree with me even if I'm right (scum have a tendency to do that). I've explained the options mafia and cultist have on the table and why that alters their play. I've given examples from real life that apply. At this point, I'll wait to see if @ ~ Gheb ~ gets where I'm coming from. Arguing with you at this point seems fruitless.

At this point I'd ask one of @ #HBC | Nabe @ #HBC | Dark Horse or @ ~ Gheb ~ to unvote, then we'll hear from the rest of town to see if you even have a fourth vote. If the fourth vote is there, I'll claim, and then everyone can decide what to do from there. If the fourth vote isn't there, we should get on to lynching someone else.

 

[Xatres]

Also I've christened a new signature which I think perfectly sums up my ongoing mafia experience.

 

[#HBC | Nabe]

This reeks

there are two compelling slots who are currently monopolizing the thread
loss of either will simplify interactions with several players in the game: equal footing, then

one makes posts that don't mesh with what's actually going on in thread, which is uncomfortable enough, but then also talks about the other player's behaviour of "ignoring" posts, which I haven't observed

the other is (atm) gut on a player I don't have recent experience with, whom I feel scum on harder, but have no reasoning and could be wrong on

both players are options
but rational choice between the two is the first
vote applied

 

[#HBC | Dark Horse]

Xonar, I'm not sure how else to explain my point about scum vs indy, but then I don't think you're going to agree with me even if I'm right (scum have a tendency to do that). I've explained the options mafia and cultist have on the table and why that alters their play. I've given examples from real life that apply. At this point, I'll wait to see if @ ~ Gheb ~ gets where I'm coming from. Arguing with you at this point seems fruitless.

there are two compelling slots who are currently monopolizing the thread
loss of either will simplify interactions with several players in the game: equal footing, then

one makes posts that don't mesh with what's actually going on in thread, which is uncomfortable enough, but then also talks about the other player's behaviour of "ignoring" posts, which I haven't observed

the other is (atm) gut on a player I don't have recent experience with, whom I feel scum on harder, but have no reasoning and could be wrong on

both players are options
but rational choice between the two is the first
vote applied

Never mind, I like this explanation

 

[Xatres]

I'm sorry, I just really, really used that image someday, and you happened to be the guy on the receiving end.

Off-Topic: It's not an image you should really, really want to use. It's against the rules for a reason. We're trying to foster a community that is open and welcoming for everyone, and comments like that turn people away. While I'm not so sensitive to be mortified by something some guy in an internet game said to me, I DO want Smashboards to welcoming and growing community. In order for that to happen, rules like this one need to be enforced.

 

[#HBC | Dark Horse]

Off-Topic: It's not an image you should really, really want to use. It's against the rules for a reason. We're trying to foster a community that is open and welcoming for everyone, and comments like that turn people away. While I'm not so sensitive to be mortified by something some guy in an internet game said to me, I DO want Smashboards to welcoming and growing community. In order for that to happen, rules like this one need to be enforced.

Fine, fine

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I get where Xatres is coming from. It seems entirely irrelevant though.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Vote: Dark Horse

don't want a Xatres lynch, Nabe lynch seems to have no support.

Dunno what Gheb means by improved, I see the opposite.

 

[Xatres]

With Nabe willing to vote either DH or myself, that puts us at essentially 3 votes apiece.

I'm pretty sure Potassium will not vote to lynch me, so we'll have to see where Vinyl falls.

@ ~ Gheb ~ @ #HBC | Nabe @ #HBC | Dark Horse - One of you unvote, we'll see what Vinyl says, then if either Dark Horse or myself needs to claim, we can make that happen. No one else vote Dark Horse in the meantime. We should keep people at L-2 to avoid mislynches.