mind games: how improve your game.

[ANTX]

people are always finding out how to be better. they read the guides, they learn the infinates, they DSHL and quad-fair, and link grabs to knees and such, but then they go against their link friend and get owned.

now why is that? they did it all right, they worked to be faster, quicker, and they can punish a lvl 9 with no mercy?

is the link cheating? or is there some other factor....

bum-bum-BUM! mind games. we all talk about it and most of us have no idea what one is. mind games psyche out the opponent and can set you up for your strong attacks and combos. wanna get on the mind game train game?

well i thought that this thread would be a good place to discuss mind games at their finest. some examples, you ask? sure!

your friend just sit there with [insert character name] and shield grabs, but you don't have any projectiles. your aerials seem pointless, what do you do?
you could:
A: run past them and reset the scenario with their back turned.
B: double jump as you get into their range and as they grab you dair them.
C: do some SHFFL somethings, and as you go to hit them with it, you wavedash land backwards and preform a dash-grab.
D:do a taunt half-way there....

well, you get the point.

so post some mind games that have worked out for you. if this conversation leads to nowhere, just close it, but maybe we could have some healthy, informative discussion. also, please add who you're doing this with. some mind games don't work with some characters. (taunting with mario persay, might not be so good...)

 

[MyNiggaNameDante]

hearing about people talking about mind games gets really old really quick. I dont know who the ******* was who got everyone into saying it, but its starting to remind me of WASSAAAAAAAAAAP, and it needs to stop.
If you want to get better start spending time playing the game and avoid this phycological bull**** that accomplishes nothing more than making you look like a fool.

It really messes with peoples minds when you are better than them, when you have your technical skills mastered and can predict well, aswell as have experience versus every character.

 

[Omni]

He's right. Explaining a strategy people use for mind games kinda defeats the purpose. The best mind game is being able to force your opponent into doing things that you want them to do, and most of it is common sense.

 

[ANTX]

Originally posted by MyNiggaNameDante

If you want to get better start spending time playing the game and avoid this phycological bull**** that accomplishes nothing more than making you look like a fool.

umm... i know how to play the game. technical skill isn't a problem for me, but there are a lot of people who would like to know how some people deal with some situations. I can wave shine a shiek from 0% to 80% and finish with upsmash, but it doesn't mean anything if i can't find a good way to approach them. this isn't a thread saying, "state all of your strats." this is a thread for people to discuss ways to psyche out their opponent.

and YOU SIR ARE NOT KIND!

and if no one wants to discuss this, then McFox will come in and close the poor poor topic. no skin off my back.

 

[only1Z]

Something that N64 talked about one day, * I believe he may be one of our greatest mindgamers in the crew* "If you are invincible, you can usually drop down to the opponent, and then they'll try to roll behind you." This situation gives you teh perfect opportunity to counter this roll, and smash / grab / or whatever. But also remember, not everyone will do this, N64 says i dont do this, but I FCKing suck at smash.

 

[GhostAnime]

A thread like this is very useful for me, as I now know I lack a lot of mind games. It would be appreciated if I could get some ideas though.

 

[Jesi]

Yeah seriously, tips on mind games would be awesome! I don't know if it's a mind game or not, but like whenever I play captain falcon, his dash dancing always screws w/ my head, if it weren't for my blaster that puts a stop to that, I'd probably be a lot more psyched out.

Also, when a character as fast as the captian or falco moves to the point it's like circles around you, that's also pretty disconcerting...speed in general combined w/ lighting fast moves, or strong attacks is scary as ****!! Even if someone is just running around like a mad man shooting out moves and not always hitting..it can really mess w/ your mind, you may find yourself wondering how to approach...

 

[ArC_man]

Mindgames can't be learned from just reading something.. you gotta actually go out there and play good people to build up your own mindgames...

If you really wanted to discuss "mindgames" and situations there would be pages without end on it because so many things can happen you can't just say "Do X when your opponent does Y, and counter with Z if he does A"... it's like tryinig to describe how to play "footies" in street fighter. You can't, you gotta actually go out, play, and experience it for urself.

 

[ANTX]

i agree with arc_man, but i believe that some good can come to those who would like to have a few basic hints. i.e. if they have trouble with a certain tactic (shield camping, hit and run, etc.) they could find a tip or strategy to help them.

i believe that the best way to learn is to play people, especialy those who are better than you. however i know many SWF members out there don't have access to other good smashers except the rare tournament, i would like to get a little inbetween-match-help.

 

[VilNess]

well ANTX just described some things I might do when I´ve noticed my enemy suffers from a slight lag and he/she has to put or her shield/roll/dodge because there isn´t time to do anything else.
WHAM! THINKING TIME!

just to keep the thread alive situation number 2.
You have uthrowed a sheik/roy/marth/DK or similiar, that aren´t exactly fastfallers but still fall quite fast (well yes there is difference between marth/roy but let´s not get nickpity).
Well they can jump before you can connect with an uair and DI after and before the jump. (depends on thrower but still)
Okay so you except they´ll jump and avoid your uair, what to do?
well you can fake in a projectile, like Ness´ PK thunder. than just jump on your enemy, doublejump and then attack, might be risky but still a viable option.
or like jump and airdodge down to platform or ground make them spend their 2nd jump.
If you get to intercept their landing they might not have much change to recover, like luigi/marth/sheik/falco/Ness and such

Keept its going

 

[dan smith]

STAY CLAM!

A very basic level on the pillar of mindgames is reacting instead of acting.

That's where DDing comes from, you DD until your opponent does something and then you use your momentum to punish them in responce.

Try playing your next game without taking any actions, only reacting to your opponent.

It builds patience...which will prevent you from making impulsive decisions in mentally taxing situations.

STAY CALM!!!!...

 

[Jesi]

what a solid piece of advice, jeez dan why don't you ever tell me these things when we're playin!!!!! lol

 

[Yuna]

Yuna's sucky guide, most of which is "Duh!":

- Don't be predictable. Mix it up. The occasional dodge will throw the enemy off, giving you time to, oh, I don't know, d-smash.

- Recover in a variety of ways, not always the same way. For some chars, up + b isn't really a good option.

- Wavedashing = Good. Yes, wavedashing is good. It's not essential and we all know Ken never WD:es (according to himself, 3-4 times per match), but it's good nonetheless. People go on and on about how worthless Peach's WD is, but it's so short and fast that if you WD backwards at the opportune moment, the enemy's lag after a smash/aerial, heck even a tilt, is so big she has the time to punish with a floatcancelled something or a dashattack/dashgrab. Short wavedashes aren't necessarily bad.

- Cheapness all the way. There is no such thing as cheap except for moves that take away 2/3rds of your lifebar. In Smash, there are no such moves. Combos, chaingrabs, edgehogs, whorenados, do anything it takes to get the win.

- Something I've seen in vids and that I'll start doing from now on: You'd be surprised how often people can get caught in a followup attack when they tech. Don't always go after them at once. Run towards them, but wait 'til they've teched to attack them. Peach's dsmash can do wonders in this situation.

- Fakeouts work well. I've managed to KO people by taunting at the opportune moment, knowing very well that they'll never make it to me in time. Wavedash fakeouts, shuffled "fakeouts" and dashdancing do wonders.

- Again with the wavedash: You can do a lot of things wavedashing. Moving forward only through wavedashing and then follow it up with something in expected.

Although I did it unconsciously, when rewatching some vids, I saw myself wavedash into dsmash, nair and floatcancelled attacks several times, catching the enemy by surprise and sometimes even killing them.

 

[VilNess]

More like a guide for Mindgames WITH PEACH!

no offense off course but whenever you make an example it´s 95% of the time with Peach

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

Here is some really good mind game...

do an attack on your opponent that is so incredibly amazing that they are scared of you for the rest of the match

of course Ness is the only one that can do that....having the best offensive UpB in the game....try a tail-reverse shot combo....

this post is a blatant plug for the super awesome pk thunder guide in the Ness section.....be sure to check all of the updates^_^


oh yeah...about mind games......

i like to combine dan's 'stay calm' game with a complete and utter beat down rush kind of non-stop attack that overwhelms

you gotta stay calm and focused to not fall for mind games...you gotta attack ferociously to overwhelm them and keep them from starting their own mind game...

of course to do this...you have to when to do what attacks^_^

 

[Yuna]

It's not really a guide on mindgames with Peach. It's a general "guide". I just used Peach as an example.

You could replace Peach with any given character and floatcancelling with normal l-cancelling and it would still work. I mean, Mario's/Doctor Mario's dsmash is also abuseable, what with that killer potential.

 

[CaliburChamp]

Mind games come with experience in fighting games etc. And after playing advanced people, you learn their style and adapt to it. Like with Link... the D-throw to Spin Attack doesnt work if they roll tech, but Link can just run and follow the roll tech and grab them again. Its important to think ahead like that.

 

[ANTX]

ahhhh yes. forming a style then diverging away from it can be very beneficial. as kirby, dan smith would always try the down-throw to up tilt, so i'd always tech away, but since he know knew that i would always tech away, he developed the advantage, by knowing what i was going to do. so i techrolled to the right, and he'd follow me there and either f-tilt or f-smash.

developing a play habit and letting it be noticed can give you an ironic advantage, because people think they know what you will do, but in reality, it's the other way around.

 

[only1Z]

That seems almost to simple. Does anyone else just follow their gut once they fall into a tournie match? I kinda just wait to see whats going to happen in the fight, I can't really plan ahead for it.

 

[ANTX]

dat's why yur a smash n00b...
i kid i kid. Z's my homie. i know alot of people react with their guts and do quite well, but for those of us with no guts, we do this. ^_^

 

[The Cape]

A personal favorite mindgame of mine involves landing an F smash (usually with Mario) that would have been quite easy to dodge, and yell aloud "MINDGAMES!" This actually has been known to throw off an opponent. They get very angry that its not a real mind game and forget about play for a second. Things like that make this that much more interesting.

 

[Varuna]

Soo many People hate this talk of mind games because its very subjective and no solid facts can be nailed down to it .. thats why when I am looking to improve my mind games I will watch a pro match bit by bit and look for mind games right there as they are happening... They dont always appear at first but if you just watch the same video over and over you can see some things that happen in the behavior that Strongly suggest the use of the things we call mind games so I find that one can learn better if this topic was maybe dealing with specific cases. so ANTX theres some advice for learning mind games (especially the part about watching a pro match over and over and over)and if you want more usesfull comments try to give out Some specific situations for discussion in this topic.

The more Specific the question the more specific the answer, the more usefull the answer.

Analogy:
You make a topic that says my friend beats me all the time. and people tell you... umm dash dance more


You make a topic that says exactly when where and with what move your friend is owning you and people tell you Exactly when where any why you should dash dance

 

[Big Burn]

in my opinion it will help u very little to talk about mindgames..... i mean it can help somewhat but in the end it all comes down to adapting to the person that u are playing. you find out there tendencies and punish them for it. being predictable is one of the worste things that u can do in this game. so yeah thats why if u play agiainst the same people all the time then u learn there tendencies and depend on the fact that someone else with the same character will do the same things, and when they dont u can conseqently lose the match even if there not better than u because if u cant adapt on the spot then u can be screwed..... now i am just kind of rambling but in the end i think any discussion on mind games is worthless

 

[Smashbros]

First off there's no such thing as a "mindgame", it's just a buzzword i guess, an easy way to explain playing smart.

Mindgames are not about doing certain techniques in certain ways. Mindgames are about taking advantage of your opponents mistakes and knowing how to counter what your opponent is doing. The only way to learn how to do this is by playing the game and getting experience. Playing against a wide varierty of opponents who all play with different styles and characters will develop your mindgames. You cant just come out say "what do you do if your opponent is holding up his shield waiting to shield grab you" then list X Y and Z options for this. It's not really something you can discuss, of course the obvious thing to do if your oppoent is standing with his shield is to go and grab him, but what about the next time ? If your opponent is smart he will not do it again. This is when you have to start thinking again because you're not going to be able to grab your opponent. In serious mathces strategies change all the time and you have to be the smart one and take advantage of the mistakes that are beingthrown your way. Even if you are able to predict what your opponent is doing, what about reaction times ? You still have to be there quick enough to take advantage of the mistake. There's far too many factors to take into consideration and this is why "mindgames" cannot be explained but only learned through experience.

 

[CaliburChamp]

The thing that gets me is when somebody says that the n00b has mad mind games, when that isnt the case.

n00b= very limited mind game and tech skill

intermediate or higher= mind games and tech skill

Cause you have to be experienced first in mindgames to be good at them. I think its just a sad excuse when some proclaimed pro gets n00bed saying he has mad mind games and yet still calls him a n00b.

 

[Rukazor]

My recommendation is to just watch your main opponents (usually friends) play against other people. Watch what they do. Learn how they play. Learn what moves they like to follow-up with after doing certain things.

Also, know the character you are playing against. Know their strengths, their weaknesses, and what to look out for and what not to do.

Other than that, mind games are nothing more than playing well.

 

[Zanguzen]

mind games are a hoax- its a general term to describe playing style but people make it seem like it's the one level that seperates noobs/intermediates with pros.

Smash is made of 2 things: predict and react. Reacting - you gotta be fast and know what to do. If they have their shield up then you can just grab if your range beats theirs otherwise do other stuff- it all comes from experience.

Predicting is just watching carefully how your opponent thinks- this takes practice in recognizing your opponent's style- this is the closest thing to "mind games."

My definition of mind games is playing with their mind with distractions. Like my friend just wavedashes like crazy everywhere- mind games. I like to short hop back and forth and switch up the jumping distance so my opponent has no idea where im goin. Forcin your opponents to get into a certain situation is hard unless you are doing a combo, so frankly, I think this thread should just be about how to counter certain strats cus "mind games" is too ambiguous to even discuss.

 

[stuntcuum3571]

To everyonewho saysk mindgames have become arbitrary to the game, i say what about baiting and trapping, poke offensives, and durastic playstyle changes midmatch?

 

[Thomas Tipman]

Originally posted by Smashbros
First off there's no such thing as a "mindgame", it's just a buzzword i guess, an easy way to explain playing smart.

whats so difficult about understanding that?

 

[MookieRah]

Someone mentioned to watch your opponent, and that is true. I don't bother looking at my character much anymore, cause I am the one inputting controls. I KNOW what I am gonna do with the exception of mistakes, but it's not like i can't see my character when I focus on my opponent, so why should my focus be on myself? Focus instead on your opponent and try to figure them out as much as possible. It helps more than one would think.

In defense of this thread, there are a lot of basic mind games that people use that are easy to discuss. There is no need to bash the posting of ideas in certain situations. Sure, it might not help against your best friend, but it might work on tons of other people. It's never a bad idea to try out new ideas. Everybody plays differently, so it's imperitive that you have multiple strategies against the same situation so you can mix it up and find a trick that works.

 

[Yuna]

Or you could just keep an eye on the both of you. Being a player of Bemanigames for some time, I'm good with that (but I refuse to play songs with superhigh BPM, such as the Max:es).

I rarely don't keep track of everything that happens on the screen except for in FFAs/Teams where I might only be focusing on 3 people (the 2 people closest to me).

 

[Smashbros]

Thomas tipman

what ?....

 

[ANTX]

ok, this is now a joint thread:
one thread is for posting anything that will improve your games, besides tech skill. (looking at your opponent, trying to find patterns, etc. etc.)
and one thread is for discussion on why this thread sucks. (i'm not trying to be funny, i think that there are definate reasons for this and discussion on what makes one a better player is truely viable).

 

[Aqualicy]

Meh.

I'm sorry, but the only way you will ever improve your so-called mind games is to play with people and develop them there. You don't need a guide to tell you that if you cancel your dash directly in front of someone as they execute their attack you can counter with one of your own moves while they recover from the lag. What you do need is the ability to read the game and realize when it has the potential to work. Before you can achieve good mind games you need a good understanding of the game itself, something that only comes from playing it. It's a mental thing.

Use this thread to collect some good basic advice, though; if people are just learning the importance of unpredictability, for instance, it could give them a kick start. It can help your game, just don't expect to improve your mind games drastically because of something you read in a thread, that's all I'm saying. Prove me wrong, please, I just think analyzing isn't enough.

 

[Paul55014]

Maybe someone could give me some advice:

I was playing a decent smasher the other night (I can usually beat him 4/5 matches) but this night he took me by suprise. I was Marth, he was Falco, Final Destination. I seemed to have trouble because all he would do is shield and wait for me to short hop, fair/nair. I would hit his shield and he would grab me, later on the same process would repeat. So I decided to play it cool, sit back and react to him, but his gun kept getting to me, so I would short hop, fair/nair, he would shield, and the process would repeat.

I tried grabs with some success, but couldn't complete the grab everytime. I tried Marths shield breaker, (neutral b) but it would only take most of his shield down.

So I guess what I'm asking is, what should I do aginst a shield camper (whatever the name is) when they have range and I don't?

Thanks for the help.

 

[ArC_man]

You need to space space correctly and he won't be able to grab you

some other stuff you can do:
- u can fastfall into a neutral a (or a dodge, or a roll) on the ground to disrupt his throw
- u can sh f-air and then jump again and fastfall into another f-air when he whiff's his grab (double jump to bait his grab)
- u can sh forward with enough momentum that your f-air will take you behind him.
- u can empty short hop and grab him
- if you're fast enough you can fastfall an aerial and grab him before he can react with his shieldgrab

 

[Zanguzen]

these are probably your two safest bets:

1) fair/nair but land behind him
2) sh towards him and wavedash from the hop into a wavegrab

marth's grab range > falco's grab range

your question has proved many ppl's points- a thread disccusing examples of mind games isn't helpful because ppl need to know how to react- they have to learn to get experience and learn how everything works so that they realize if someone is shielding go behind them or grab

so yes this thread "sucks" only because it's trying to make a concept that encompasses too many things into something tangible and specific

 

[CalDragon]

Back to the mind games. The only true way to pull it off is to find out what realy bothers that person and then repeating it over and over again until it doesn't work any longer. I was playing a friend the other day using peach and was using fox. i quikly realized that he hated turnips. i know that it seems easy to dodge them but when done correctly it never fails. when ever they reflect it you can pick it back up before it hits the ground it when you hit them you can grab it again and repeat. That realy angers people. Another fun thing to try even if you are not a peach fan is to just jump around and avoid all contact. Noobish to all extents but is sure to get the opponents a little on the angry and fustrated side. Especialy when you Keep hovering on the top of the map out of reach. One of the best get your buddy mad charecters.

 

[KuRoKuPo]

I've learnt something...you can't really improve mindgames when you are fighting with the same person over and over again.

I had a match with a Marth when I was using Jigglypuff , I had trouble trying to get him at first , but soon after , I started DDing and bair-ing. This made him fustraited as he always runs towards me and I kick him backwards , after that he went to a nair and uair frenzy , I can tell he was getting impatient at that time , so I started dair and l-cancel and after a while he started to go on a...full out offensive. Using that as an "advantage" I pounded him and he forgot to DI and I screeched him.

Out of fustraition he forgot to DI out.

If you can make him fustraited or lose his cool , you win half the match...

(This makes me sound like a real n00b. hehe...as most of you know that...)

 

[Thomas Tipman]

Originally posted by Smashbros
Thomas tipman

what ?....

i was agreeing with you, and asking everyone else whats so difficult about understanding that?