Mii Size tournament rules

[Iceweasel]

We should standardize to either 1 Mii for all fighters or 1 Mii per type. This way, players know what to expect then they go to tournaments. We won't have to worry about what percentage this one dies at, or which combos this one has. If there's only 1 gunner, 1 brawler, and (*snicker*) 1 swordsman, we can learn these characters and how to fight them.

 

[kraven202]

Letting the miis use other sizes would be like letting them use equipments. It does the same thing, alter their power, speed and defense.

Also lets be real here...you all know what tiny mii brawler can do and how ******** it is and because of that most of you are ignoring the big picture here, allowing them to change their height and weight will bring far too many complications in the future with the rules since then for example will come the TOs that even tho they agree with customs they wont allow miis H/W to be changed, so that might separate the community EVEN MORE and that is the last thing we want.

Most of you keep using the "this project is to allow character to be the best they can be in the game" but here's the thing...to change the H/W you need to go outside the game which means it is not something that's part of the game, however the game comes with a few guest miis that all have default H/W, THOSE are the ones that should be used.

The custom moveset project is to allow custom MOVES, the miis have 12 diferent moves unlike the rest of the cast (except for palutena) and then you want to change the H/W too?? you're asking for too much imo

Besides tiny miis look ******** AF and it really bothers me to have to be stuck with that thing

 

[Jigglymaster]

Letting the miis use other sizes would be like letting them use equipments. It does the same thing, alter their power, speed and defense.

Also lets be real here...you all know what tiny mii brawlercan do and how ******** it is and because of that most of you are ignoring the big picture here, allowing them to change their height and weight will bring far too many complications in the future with the rules since then for example will come the TOs that even tho they agree with customs they wont allow miis H/W to be changed, so that might separate then community even more and that is the last thing we want.

Most of you keep using the "this project is to allow character to be the best they can be in the game" but here's the thing...to change the H/W you need to go outside the game which means it is not something that's part of the game, however the game comes with a few guest miis that all have default H/W, THOSE are the ones that should be used.

The custom moveset project is to allow custom MOVES, the miis have 12 diferent moves unlike the rest of the cast (except for palutena) and then you want to change the H/W too?? you're asking for too much imo

Besides tiny miis look ******** AF and it really bothers me to have to be stuck with that thing

I think this post takes the cake for what i'm trying to argue

 

[san.]

Shortest+thinnest swordsman looks fine with the ninja garb. Since default is easy to use anyways, might as well add the current optimal value and have 2 good options available at non-Evo regionals and greater.

 

[Bjurrse]

I completely agree with Kraven202. I dont wanna play as a ****** with a head larger than a barrel. And why add more variables, when the default miis are absolutely fine.

 

[Quickhero]

Default, please.

I want there to be a formality with Miis, and not only is this most optimal with the Mii versions that are ALWAYS available, but also prevents troubles from being set later. It makes sure that tournaments have a sense of regulation, rather than having even just 1 different weight and height Mii set. It not only provides attributes to Miis that provide inconvenience in-terms of setting up (admittedly, this only applies if we don't really know the most optimal Mii set) but it also makes it absolute hell to evolve the Mii match-ups. Like I mean think about it, imagine if you have a combo that only works on a certain spread but doesn't work on another, it would make the Mii match-up charts absolute hell and you will essentially have a completely different match-up even if your opponent is using the same character.

 

[kraven202]

Here's a little something, the reason equips are banned is because altering your stats in any way is not legal in tournament play. Mii fighters just like the rest of the cast come with a default weight, height, hitboxes and hurtbox, atk, def, speed, jump height, running speed, air mobility etc. that is included within the game with the guest miis the game brings by default. Altering any of those stats in any way is the equivalent to using equips and therefore should be banned. Not only that but in their case to do so they have to use a method OUTSIDE the game, so it is in fact something that's not part of the game.

So swordfighter wants less ending lag on his attacks and the others want more mobility, meanwhile chars like ganon could use at least 10 points in speed which is barely noticeable all around but allows him to do autocancel short hop dair and marth could use a smooth lander to patch up that landing lag on his aerials, but we don't allow that because its an equip, well with the H/W on miis is the same thing the only diference is the method used to alter those stats is the mii maker, which is even worst cause to do it you have to use an option that is not included within the game and changes more than just their speed, power and defense since it changes their hurtbox and hitboxes as well as other things.

Bottom line, modifying your stats in any way IS NOT ALLOWED in tournament play and that includes both equips and changing your height and weight.

 

[Helkulkhamen]

Here's a little something, the reason equips are banned is because altering your stats in any way is not legal in tournament play. Mii fighters just like the rest of the cast come with a default weight, height, hitboxes and hurtbox, atk, def, speed, jump height, running speed, air mobility etc. that is included within the game with the guest miis the game brings by default. Altering any of those stats in any way is the equivalent to using equips and therefore should be banned. Not only that but in their case to do so they have to use a method OUTSIDE the game, so it is in fact something that's not part of the game.

So swordfighter wants less ending lag on his attacks and the others want more mobility, meanwhile chars like ganon could use at least 10 points in speed which is barely noticeable all around but allows him to do autocancel short hop dair and marth could use a smooth lander to patch up that landing lag on his aerials, but we don't allow that because its an equip, well with the H/W on miis is the same thing the only diference is the method used to alter those stats is the mii maker, which is even worst cause to do it you have to use an option that is not included within the game and changes more than just their speed, power and defense since it changes their hurtbox and hitboxes as well as other things.

Bottom line, modifying your stats in any way IS NOT ALLOWED in tournament play and that includes both equips and changing your height and weight.

That's not correct though, the stat modifications to speed / attack / defense aren't what is problematic about equipment. In fact, those modifications are comparatively tame. The real problem with equipment (and why they are not allowed in tournaments) is two-fold: first, it takes a colossal amount of time to get "all" equipment, much more so than custom moves, and two, because a significant amount of custom equipments have game-breaking, random side-effects that help to turn matches into less a test of skill and more of a coin flip.

I can sympathize with not wanting to play a goofy-looking Mii though, so honestly the best solution would be to have both default and optimum miis playable. The real optimal solution would be to allow players to import their own miis during the tournament so that they could play with what they are most familiar with, but I understand that in a large tournament like EVO time may be too much of an issue. While the results of this poll favor optimum sized miis, I think enough players have expressed desire to play the standard guest miis that both options should be included in the case when the sizes need to be decided beforehand (when players aren't allowed to import their own).

 

[deepseadiva]

Here's a little something, the reason equips are banned is because altering your stats in any way is not legal in tournament play.

That's not why equipment is banned.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

What we are doing in the project right now is supporting optimal Miis (it was the overwhelming favorite result in this poll) but having a second, default sized set of Miis available specifically for Brawler. The reason is that it seems as though most support for default coming from Mii players comes from Brawler mains (while Gunner/Swordfighter mains seem more clearly set on "we need a good size for our character to be worth using") and further Brawler has far fewer custom sets than the other two Miis (Gunner and Swordfighter have something like 18 sets each even with just one size) so it is significantly less burdensome to support Mii Brawler with default size. The optimum sizes as agreed by the character boards are absolute smallest for Brawler and 1/4 height minimum width for both Gunner and Swordfighter.

---

Equipment is banned, to clarify it crystal clear, for three reasons. The first would be a fully sufficient condition for a ban by itself, the second is pretty close to a fully sufficient condition by itself, and the third would be highly contentious but is certainly a factor:

1. Equipment is randomly generated. Other than the handful of equipment pieces the player has at the start or obtains from the challenge board (and the challenge board equipment is different between the Wii U and 3ds versions!), no two players can expect to have the same equipment. This makes it logistically simply impossible for a Wii U tournament to be fairly run without making it absolutely mandatory for every last player to own a 3ds and copy of Smash Bros for 3ds, every player to have spent massive amounts of time grinding for equipment that they might want to use, and for every tournament set to involve both players mutually uploading their personal builds with equipment which will become quite costly in terms of tournament time very quickly. It's also a matter of fundamental unfairness that a random number generator will be consistently starting some players with mechanical advantages because they had better luck getting the best possible stats from their equipment; the way equipment stats are random is really a pretty unacceptable problem.

2. Equipment effects are completely broken. One of them gives you a random chance to do triple damage and knockback. With that effect applied, competitive smash is a joke. Many others can do things like give random final smashes or give absolutely massive statistical buffs under some conditions. We would need a complex series of bans on a lot of the equipment effects in an equipment legal metagame, and it would be essentially impossible to decide where to draw the line. It's better to nip it in the bud and not include equipment.

3. All of that aside, the equipment statistical parameters are far more severe than Mii Fighter size parameters. Most of the cast literally cannot catch a run-away max speed Sonic. Max power Ganondorf has so much kill power that he can win games in only a few blows. Max defense Mega Man, especially with Beat, will seriously live to 300% on a consistent basis. With these extremes present, it seems likely the game will degenerate into gimmicks and at least guaranteed that it will be a substantially inferior and less interesting game than the game with ordinary stats. This is in pretty sharp contrast to the Mii Fighter parameter shifting which is of a way, way lower magnitude than equipment stat changes and further seems to be something the Mii Fighters were designed around whereas it seems very obvious from playing the game that no balance effort whatsoever went into equipment stat changes.

I do not believe the severe problems with the equipment system (problems similar if not greater than the problems with the item system) are useful guidance to the situation with Mii Fighters.

 

[Epok]

Can I at least have the option of uploading on via my 3DS to play my "Optimal" as long as it doesn't have equipment attached to it?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Can I at least have the option of uploading on via my 3DS to play my "Optimal" as long as it doesn't have equipment attached to it?

EVO (and other nationals I guess) is the exception in that they are explicitly banning on-site imports. But in your local scene it shouldn't be a problem. Less people = less stress to meet strict time limits.

tl;dr it depends on the tournament but ideally yes.

 

[1FC0]

Bottom line, modifying your stats in any way IS NOT ALLOWED in tournament play and that includes both equips and changing your height and weight.

I am not feeling your argument. Maybe it must be purified. Just take a deep breath and try to rethink your argument.

GET IT ????

 

[Epok]

I think another thing people aren't taking into consideration is how many people are playing mii fighters? In my scene which is upwards to 40 people, I'm the only person maining a mii in any form. So the time issue of uploading miis my not be as problematic. I have never heard of or seen any tournaments that had an abundance of mii fighters.

 

[shapular]

I think if only one size is allowed it should be default. That will make it easier and more reasonable for everybody who wants to play Miis to be able to practice them. Things like "1/4 height min width" just creates an additional arbitrary barrier to even be able to play the tourney-legal version of a character which some people might not even know exists. QR codes are nice but add even another barrier for people who might not be able to use them easily or know how to use them. And what if you want to go over to your friend's house and practice your Mii but they don't have the optimum one? If defaults were legal you could just make your Mii in under a minute, but if you could only use the optimums then you have to go into their Mii Maker and spend several minutes trying to get your Mii exactly right. But that's for the people who actually know what the optimum size is. Say Joe Schmoe shows up to your tournament and he doesn't know anything about Smashboards but he's been training with his friends and has a mean Mii Brawler. Except he's been training with default and you have to tell him he can't use that and suddenly he doesn't quite know how to use his own character anymore. You have to think about things like this. And it's not just the mains. Anybody who wants to dabble with Miis has to go through the process of transferring the optimum ones over and making a new set instead of just spending a minute or two setting up a few sets. That makes it that much harder just to see if you might want to play one of those characters.

 

[popsofctown]

I really enjoy min size gunner so this thread makes me sad. Seems akin to banning Lucina and Dark Pit to restrict mii fighters down to a single size.

 

[Zzuxon]

I really enjoy min size gunner so this thread makes me sad. Seems akin to banning Lucina and Dark Pit to restrict mii fighters down to a single size.

It's not restriction per se, in a smaller tournament you'd be able to import your own. It is just a pre set.

 

[Epok]

It's not restriction per se, in a smaller tournament you'd be able to import your own. It is just a pre set.

Yeah but what if I qualify for evo (hypothetically) playing a non optimal mii fighter? What I do? Re-learn my character? Kinda lame. I play mii gunner also and I like the smallest size. I think the optimal is the short/wide one.

 

[Zzuxon]

Yeah but what if I qualify for evo (hypothetically) playing a non optimal mii fighter? What I do? Re-learn my character? Kinda lame. I play mii gunner also and I like the smallest size. I think the optimal is the short/wide one.

Well, no system is perfect. It's a shame, but that's the way it is. Some people will fall through the cracks, that is unavoidable.
The alternative would be default only, which would be further from your preference.

 

[popsofctown]

The better system is to just put Miis on the Wii U systems instead of putting Mii fighters. You can capture every size anyone would ever be interested in ever in about seven Miis. Then just let people make a mii fighter on the spot with the moves they want. The moves are unlocked by default. It takes like 2 seconds to make a Mii fighter. It doesn't even require on the spot ds or on the spot upload to do that, it just requires that miis named "short short" or "quarter-min" are on the wii U. A major can handle that easily.

That system would be more fair and more convenient to people who don't have DSes with them at tournaments of any scale.

 

[Judo777]

I really hate to detract from the far more important issue that is already being discussed, but I would like to point out the importance of trying heavily to avoid the possibility of creating offensive Miis.

I think the safest bet is to use the guest Miis skins (even if the height and weight are different).

Poop I realize now that this is technically the wrong thread for my post.

 

[popsofctown]

I really hate to detract from the far more important issue that is already being discussed, but I would like to point out the importance of trying heavily to avoid the possibility of creating offensive Miis.

I think the safest bet is to use the guest Miis skins (even if the height and weight are different).

Poop I realize now that this is technically the wrong thread for my post.

I'm not sure this challenge is actually unique to miis. Isn't offensive language used during a set also an issue?

 

[Judo777]

I'm not sure this challenge is actually unique to miis. Isn't offensive language used during a set also an issue?

Yes but controlling legal mii skins is very easily enforced, while language is much harder.

 

[John12346]

Well, that is part of the reason why I made the QR Codes for the Miis uneditable, to avoid that issue(the other being I don't want people messing with the height/weight dials). Although I guess that is kind of moot considering I released template Miis for the standardized sizes that you can freely edit anyway. Let's just hope people are responsible when designing Miis, eh?

 

[shapular]

I really enjoy min size gunner so this thread makes me sad. Seems akin to banning Lucina and Dark Pit to restrict mii fighters down to a single size.

Weren't you arguing to ban Miis entirely like two months ago?

 

[popsofctown]

Weren't you arguing to ban Miis entirely like two months ago?

I generally see restricting as worse than banning. It's less elegant, more revolting. I mean, the only thing worse than me not getting to play the Mii Gunner I play in friendlies in tournament is not getting to play the Mii Gunner I play in friendlies in tournament and then losing a tournament set to a 1/4th Mii Gunner.

I wasn't convinced that banning was the best move, I was just musing. I would contend banning them entirely is still better than restricting to an arbitrary unintuitive size that doesn't accomodate anyone who played min/min or max/max before they joined the scene. Especially when loading miis onto wii Us instead of loading setups makes so much sense. Especially when Mii Gunner's customs are so well balanced that it's possible for someone to feel good about literally any of the 81 move combinations Swordfighter is probably in a similar state.

 

[ooho]

How about smallest and widest Mii?
In Japan, this set is considered as the strongest size for Mii brawler.
It is the fastest, heaviest and the most powerful.