Middle Cup Discussion

[Wrath`]

Ok made a team, anyone want to take it for its first battle?

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Ok made a team, anyone want to take it for its first battle?

If our server was up I would. :|

 

[Deleted member]

ill play you wrath, Anytime tonight I can play.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

We played once earlier this morning. His lead is pretty unique and actually works well.
I'll be on later tonight as well.

 

[Wrath`]

As for the rest of my team..............I just need to find more synergy.

 

[UltiMario]

I am bumping this for Gen V Middle Cup.

Gen V Middle Cup is absolutely amazing and all of you have no excuses to not play this.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

I'd assume Evolution Stone has just as much merit as it does in the Little Cup metagame.
Are there any Inconsistent users in Middle Cup? I've heard about said ability being a bit out of hand for Little Cup players, and was wondering if something similar occurs in Middle Cup.

I can't use Zuruggu or Zuruzukin, though!

 

[UltiMario]

No inconsistent at all in middle cup.

You cans see the entire contents of the tier here:
http://veekun.com/dex/pokemon/search?sort=id&evolution_position=middle

 

[kirbyraeg]

What does the entire metagame do vs. evo stone trace porygon2/evo stone toxic stall dusclops.

And Light Ball Pikachu, who is also the 4th fastest pokemon in the metagame at base 90.

 

[UltiMario]

Evo Stone Trace P2:

Fighting Types. Machoke and Steel Girder Man team him apart, other fires can put a nice dent in him. Toxic works too.

Evo Stone Toxic Stall Dusclops:
Haunter Shadow Ball 2HKOs, and it's immune to Toxic and only like 3HKO'd by Night Shade (4HKO if you run pointlessly high amounts of HP or lefties or something). Again, Toxic also works.

I guess you'd want a Spinner, but Wartortle is the only one; and lets face it, while Wartortle isn't bad... he's not good either. Otherwise you're probably best off using TSpikes Roselia and Aromatherapy Chansey to keep Toxic off your walls.

Light Ball Pikachu:
Lol.

Chansey takes like 30% damage from Brick Break. It can just KO Pikachu with 3 Seismic Tosses while refreshing up with healing moves every now and then. That's leftovers Chansey. Specially Defensive Dusclops and P2 can do similar. Things clocking in faster can take a hit if they come in on neutral or resisted moves and OHKO Pikachu.

 

[kirbyraeg]

Evo Stone Trace P2:

Fighting Types. Machoke and Steel Girder Man team him apart, other fires can put a nice dent in him. Toxic works too.

Evo Stone Toxic Stall Dusclops:
Haunter Shadow Ball 2HKOs, and it's immune to Toxic and only like 3HKO'd by Night Shade (4HKO if you run pointlessly high amounts of HP or lefties or something). Again, Toxic also works.

I guess you'd want a Spinner, but Wartortle is the only one; and lets face it, while Wartortle isn't bad... he's not good either. Otherwise you're probably best off using TSpikes Roselia and Aromatherapy Chansey to keep Toxic off your walls.

Light Ball Pikachu:
Lol.

Chansey takes like 30% damage from Brick Break. It can just KO Pikachu with 3 Seismic Tosses while refreshing up with healing moves every now and then. That's leftovers Chansey. Specially Defensive Dusclops and P2 can do similar. Things clocking in faster can take a hit if they come in on neutral or resisted moves and OHKO Pikachu.

1: Pory2 naturally outspeeds both, meaning that if they try to switch in they can be gradually worn down. Either of pory2's special moves is roughly a 3hko if they run max hp and there's some hazards down. It can run Magic Coat over either either part of boltbeam to keep itself status-proof as well, and there isn't much offensively that can keep it from sitting there recovering and spamming attacks or magic coat as necessary.

2: Dusclops' Shadow Sneak 2hko's Haunter easily. Not very useful against most other threats, but worth it to take down its primary counter? I think so.

3: Pikachu can SubPunch, which would do enough damage to Chansey to be threatening.
0 atk pikachu vs. 252/252 bold evo-stone chansey: 408 - 480 (57.95% - 68.18%)
Throwing in a bit of attack (and again, having a layer of spikes on the field) means pika can throw a sub up as chansey switches in, and focus punch+tbolt will ko since you won't have leftovers. Non-evo stone chansey gets beaten hard by focus punch. pory2 and dusclops would do much better against it, but they could also probably be 2hko'ed by tbolt/focus punch.

 

[UltiMario]

Bla bla bla TRADE OFFS

1: Pory2 naturally outspeeds both, meaning that if they try to switch in they can be gradually worn down. Either of pory2's special moves is roughly a 3hko if they run max hp and there's some hazards down. It can run Magic Coat over either either part of boltbeam to keep itself status-proof as well, and there isn't much offensively that can keep it from sitting there recovering and spamming attacks or magic coat as necessary.

1: Drain Punch/DynamicPunch kills P2 a lot faster than P2 can reverse the effect. If either its Cuts boosted (I personally use Guts Machoke), P2 has no real hope to Survive without Max SpA Psychic on a predicted Switch-in, seeing as with Guts its pretty smart to run a high speed, of which will outpace Standard P2. If you run Magic Coat, it essentially means instead of having coverage, you're now losing to a ****ton of other stuff because you have only 1 attacking move in exchange for beating Toxic. If you don't predict the Toxic, then you're pretty screwed then, too. Oh, by the way, if either are guts sweepers and use Superpower/Close Combat, P2 is dead, or REALLY close to it, in a single hit.

Its all a trade off. Run Magic Coat to avoid predicted Toxics. Run BoltBeam for coverage. SpA and Psychic to deal with Fighters. Recover is mandatory to live, Toxic to wear down other attackers. Its all "What do you want to be countered by"

2: Dusclops' Shadow Sneak 2hko's Haunter easily. Not very useful against most other threats, but worth it to take down its primary counter? I think so.

As you said, the only reason to use Sneak would be to beat down Haunter. Otherwise its useless. You also have to put it over Pain Split, Toxic, WoW, or Night Shade. If you drop Night Shade, then you're limited to Status Damage. Pain Split? No Recovery. Toxic? No Toxicstall. WoW? You get a huge chunk of new counters because a lot of Physical **** wrecks you the worst.

Beat one, lose to another.

3: Pikachu can SubPunch, which would do enough damage to Chansey to be threatening.
0 atk pikachu vs. 252/252 bold evo-stone chansey: 408 - 480 (57.95% - 68.18%)
Throwing in a bit of attack (and again, having a layer of spikes on the field) means pika can throw a sub up as chansey switches in, and focus punch+tbolt will ko since you won't have leftovers. Non-evo stone chansey gets beaten hard by focus punch. pory2 and dusclops would do much better against it, but they could also probably be 2hko'ed by tbolt/focus punch.

SubPunch Pika means you Drop HP Ice, Grass Knot, or Surf out of whatever you're using. (You'd use GK over Surf on Lightningrod sets) to do that. Thunderbolt/HP Ice/Sub/Punch looks pretty solid, honestly, assuming you can keep the Sub up. However, this is still only a check, as you have to roll rather high with almost every mix and match of EVs a Standard Chansey would have (I'm even giving the benefit of the doubt with 4 Attack Pikachu!) in order to KO it with FP + Tbolt + Tbolt. If you don't, two you die from seismic toss. If you run a higher attack stat in order to KO Chansey, now you're leaving yourself open to not doing enough damage with Tbolt/HP Ice to other ****... unless you want to run something stupid like Sub/Punch/Volt Tackle/HP Ice or something for a Physically based set, which makes Pikachu die to Dusclops faster than usual.




But yeah, to some things up.

MOVE OPTIONS EXIST. I was just going through counters and **** that ruin the sets I used/have seen others use, if you run another set, fine, but then it has different counters still <.>


In other news, Daburan is one of the best sweepers in the metagame. Highest special attack stat, and basically only loses to physical dark moves or horrendously overpowered Physical moves in general.

 

[xxmoosexx]

This metagame sounds freaking awesome.

 

[ss118]

Depending on how common Chansey is, I would use a physically-oriented mixed Pikachu.

418 Atk vs 178 Def & 704 HP (120 Base Power): 303 - 357 (43.04% - 50.71%)

and

418 Atk vs 178 Def & 704 HP (75 Base Power): 252 - 298 (35.80% - 42.33%)

Volt Tackle and Brick Break, respectively. You can still keep Grass Knot and HP Ice, which I would assume would be enough with 274 SpA to deal just a bit to most of those bulky grounds.

 

[UltiMario]

Art, this is played at level 50, calcs screw up a bit.

Smogon Calc can factor level, so its best to try that.

Neutral Nature Max Attack Brick Break vs 252/252 Calm Evo Stone Chansey: 40.3% - 47.6%

Neutral Nature Max Attack Focus Punch vs 252/252 Calm Evo Stone Chansey: 79.6% - 94.1%

Neutral Nature Max Attack Volt Tackle vs 252/252 Calm Evo Stone Chansey: 47.3% - 56.3%

Physical Pikachu looks pretty good, it seems to hurt Dusclops pretty bad too, but if Dusclops comes in on anything other than Volt Tackle, that's Dusclops' win.

Maybe you could play around Physical Pikachu by forcing it to use a certain kind of attack or perish, then switch in something scarfed to take it, and take it out. Most notibly Scarf Waruvile, as it can even get you with Pursuit. Seems reasonable.

Edit:
Or, you know, Magneton ****s all over you because it can take BBs like a Champ. Same with Porygon2. It appears Grasses still **** on Pikachu, especially Bayleef and its bulky ****erness.

Edit edit:
Wait a second I'm stupid LOL
Shibibiiru (electric eel) is like the best Pika Counter Ever. Max Attack Pikachu Focus Punch like 5HKOs the thing bahahahaha

 

[Gates]

What about ScarfGabite?

 

[UltiMario]

If you don't come in on Sub or HP Ice you're fine.

But that assumes you won't come in on them.

SubPunch Chu be wreckin your ****.

 

[ss118]

I'm actually fairly interested in this. Seems very... fun. I'll think harder about stuff at a later time, but I should be able to come up with a comprehensible threat list after a lookthrough.

 

[Gates]

If you don't come in on Sub or HP Ice you're fine.

But that assumes you won't come in on them.

SubPunch Chu be wreckin your ****.

Why would you bring in anything on anything ever? Revenge killing is the ****.

 

[UltiMario]

Pikachu used switch!

Either that or Pikas still under that Sub lol.

There's a fair amount of crap that can take a hit, or 4, from Gabite.

Scarf Waruvile is probably better because you can Pursuit as well.

 

[Gates]

Break the sub, then send in Gabite.

And Dragon/Ground/Rock is great coverage when it comes to breaking through physical walls in this format. The only notable walls/bulky pokemon that don't get hit for super effective by that typing combo are Dusclops, Porygon2, and Chansey.

So anybody wanna play or what? Is there a PO server with a MC ladder?

 

[UltiMario]

There are none because MC is a horridly underdeveloped Metagame LOL

Its normally easier to IM me on something, so do that for a MC match.

 

[xxmoosexx]

So Pokemon families that only have 2 evolutions are kicked out lol?

 

[UltiMario]

Pokemon families that contain 1 or 2 Pokemon are kicked out for the 3-pokemon lines, yes.