Mewtwo VS Sheik..

[bleblock]

Does anyone else see this match up as being entirely in favor of Sheik? Mewtwo is so damn floaty and Sheik can easily beat the hell out of Mewtwo with combos. I can hardly beat a level 9 CPU Sheik, yet when i'm matching up in for glory I get some fair wins while using Mewtwo. Any analysis as to why Sheik destroys Mewtwo would be much appreciated.

 

[Creede]

Destroys Mewtwo? I don't think do. At worst it would be 70:30 in Sheik's favor, which is still doable for the Mewtwo. Mewtwo just has to have his spacing completely on point and out-read Sheik. So yes, it's a tough match up, but I honestly think it's not terrible for Mewtwo.

 

[bleblock]

See for yourself. Match a level 9 CPU Mewtwo and lvl 9 Sheik on any omega map and Sheik will win most of the time. Or challenge Sheik yourself. There is an extreme amount of pressure while fighting Sheik, more so than any other character. I easily 3 stock any other fighter with Mewtwo, but with Sheik I always die once. Sheik simply beats out Mewtwo, her reactions are so fast. The only way I was winning was using tech and abusing the AI's limited knowledge.

Are there any advantages you can show me that could help Mewtwo out in this matchup? He mostly gets wrecked in air for me.

 

[Creede]

See for yourself. Match a level 9 CPU Mewtwo and lvl 9 Sheik on any omega map and Sheik will win most of the time. Or challenge Sheik yourself. There is an extreme amount of pressure while fighting Sheik, more so than any other character. I easily 3 stock any other fighter with Mewtwo, but with Sheik I always die once. Sheik simply beats out Mewtwo, her reactions are so fast. The only way I was winning was using tech and abusing the AI's limited knowledge.

Are there any advantages you can show me that could help Mewtwo out in this matchup? He mostly gets wrecked in air for me.

You're just going to have to learn how to be safe against Sheik. Mewtwo is a new character in Smash 4, so it will take some time to get good at him. He is a tough character to use, but you just have to learn.

 

[Uffe]

You should take into consideration that Mewtwo came out two days ago. It's going to be an uphill battle until you can fully utilize him. I actually fought a good Sheik today. I consider myself decent at Smash, but my Mewtwo got two stocked. Basically the match went down bad for me. I didn't land any hits on Sheik until I was at kill percent. I brought out my main and two stocked him back. So I'd say we were around the same level in terms of ability. I want to say that it's because Mewtwo is still fresh, but I couldn't really do much against this Sheik. Unless Mewtwo gets a buff in the next update, I see this match up being really bad for him.

 

[ZephyrZ]

Match a level 9 CPU Mewtwo and lvl 9 Sheik on any omega map and Sheik will win most of the time. Or challenge Sheik yourself.

That's not a very good indicator of matchup scores, actually. CPUs fight differently then real competitive players.

I'll agree it's a difficult battle for the 'Two, though, but I don't have a very strong opinion on the matchup yet.

 

[Psyruby]

I don't have that much of an issue with Sheik(I know a guy who mains Sheik that is about my skill level). Sure she gets lots of damage off a conversion, but generally you can out range her and set up combos too. Once Mewtwo and Sheik have both entered kill percents, Mewtwo has much more options to mix up and catch the Sheik player in a mistake.

 

[bleblock]

That's not a very good indicator of matchup scores, actually. CPUs fight differently then real competitive players.

I'll agree it's a difficult battle for the 'Two, though, but I don't have a very strong opinion on the matchup yet.

Okay? No examples gives no meaning to what you're trying to say. Back up what you are trying to say "why" *for example* I'm not sure where your perspective is coming from; that when CPU's fight it has no merit? Who is to decide what "counts" as a good indicator. Yes it is obvious players fight differently than CPU's.

My point was to try and elicit ideas or constructive analysis as to why it is a tough match up. For example, Mewtwo can create more ranged pressure with a fully charged shadow ball at kill percentages. I was looking for other people's ideas and experiences that would follow a similar structure.

I'm not looking for opinions. I'm looking for hard facts and data for this matchup. Not an argumentation thread where players state how they think this matchup feels. Concrete details would be much appreciated and implored.

 

[Psyruby]

Okay? No examples gives no meaning to what you're trying to say. Back up what you are trying to say "why" *for example* I'm not sure where your perspective is coming from; that when CPU's fight it has no merit? Who is to decide what "counts" as a good indicator. Yes it is obvious players fight differently than CPU's.

My point was to try and elicit ideas or constructive analysis as to why it is a tough match up. For example, Mewtwo can create more ranged pressure with a fully charged shadow ball at kill percentages. I was looking for other people's ideas and experiences that would follow a similar structure.

I'm not looking for opinions. I'm looking for hard facts and data for this matchup. Not an argumentation thread where players state how they think this matchup feels. Concrete details would be much appreciated and implored.

This fight is basically two stages.

The first stage is racking up damage(the neutral), this part of the game Sheik dominates. She can convert easy damage up to around 50% at least. At this stage of the game, I would charge up Shadow Ball but not use it until I am able to read when the sheik player likes to use needles. If the sheik player likes pressuring your shield with spaced aerials, I suggest using dash attacks as Mewtwo is much quicker than a lot of characters give him credit and his dash attack can be followed up with aerials. If the sheik player likes to grab, use spot dodges(as mewtwo's spot dodge is significantly better than his rolls) and punish with jab into jab into Ftilt or Dtilt. If the sheik player likes empty hopping into Ftilts, probably will have to wait that out. Another suggestion is to use your multijab as a wall. Mewtwo's multijab has much larger horizontal and vertical range than it looks and cancels out small projectiles while still keeping the wall up. Once your damage is high enough, Mewtwo can start air dodging out of all Sheik's kill options in the air, as mewtwo has the fastest air dodge in the game(frame 2, lasts 23 frames with low cooldown).

The second stage is when you both are going for the kill. Now in this stage, Mewtwo is significantly better at pressuring Sheik, now your Shadow Balls aren't just punishes for Needles, but also kills. Be sure to have fully charged Shadow Ball up as this will discourage extra damage from needles and allows for mix ups. Mewtwo can also provide platform pressure with Usmash, Fsmash is safe on shield, and Dsmash is safe in general. Confusion while easy to get out of if you spam it on your opponent, can be quite surprising if you suddenly whip it out at kill percents and can score an easy Fsmash while they are lost in the confusion(jokes). Finally, sheik is really pressured not to mess up an aerial as a simple grab or jab to grab can cause her to die. Meanwhile most of Sheik's kill options rely on Mewtwo being in the air, and as stated before you should be able to call her kill moves with your air dodge.

 

[godogod]

See for yourself. Match a level 9 CPU Mewtwo and lvl 9 Sheik on any omega map and Sheik will win most of the time. Or challenge Sheik yourself. There is an extreme amount of pressure while fighting Sheik, more so than any other character. I easily 3 stock any other fighter with Mewtwo, but with Sheik I always die once. Sheik simply beats out Mewtwo, her reactions are so fast. The only way I was winning was using tech and abusing the AI's limited knowledge.

Are there any advantages you can show me that could help Mewtwo out in this matchup? He mostly gets wrecked in air for me.

You can 3 stock a level 9 lucina who spam counters?

 

[DrRiceBoy]

Unfortunately, Mewtwo struggles against most of the top tiers. This includes an offensive Sheik, of course.

 

[flying_tortoise]

Okay? No examples gives no meaning to what you're trying to say. Back up what you are trying to say "why" *for example* I'm not sure where your perspective is coming from; that when CPU's fight it has no merit? Who is to decide what "counts" as a good indicator. Yes it is obvious players fight differently than CPU's.

wow you could have responded in a much better way to a person that didn't start anything.
in melee..Jigglypuff cpu gets destroyed by fox cpu. Yet when players get ahold of her like Hbox, he beats the best in the world.
The AI are programmed by people who may not even know what is best for the character to do in certain situations.
I provide melee as the example b/c those are the only cpus i can think off the top of my head, and I don't bother watching cpus fight.
Sheik is a rushdown character. All rushdowns will give slower characters a hard time, until the player uses the correct options to counter her. ppl are giving good advice on the rushdown thread.
And psyruby gave some good advice above.

 

[Stormfury12]

Mewtwo vs Sheik isn't too hard. Its mostly patience. Sheik players can be pretty predictable (Always goes for Ftilt, fair, BF, throw, and Uair) so my best advice is learn Mew2's HB's cause they're pretty wonky tbh. Mew2 overall has a MUCH better time killing than Sheik does. He's the glass cannon of Smash really. Zone them out with Shadow balls, nairs, fittest, dtilts, jab, and when they needle use SideB to reflect it. Its a game of patience and playing with their mind.

 

[bleblock]

This fight is basically two stages.

The first stage is racking up damage(the neutral), this part of the game Sheik dominates. She can convert easy damage up to around 50% at least. At this stage of the game, I would charge up Shadow Ball but not use it until I am able to read when the sheik player likes to use needles. If the sheik player likes pressuring your shield with spaced aerials, I suggest using dash attacks as Mewtwo is much quicker than a lot of characters give him credit and his dash attack can be followed up with aerials. If the sheik player likes to grab, use spot dodges(as mewtwo's spot dodge is significantly better than his rolls) and punish with jab into jab into Ftilt or Dtilt. If the sheik player likes empty hopping into Ftilts, probably will have to wait that out. Another suggestion is to use your multijab as a wall. Mewtwo's multijab has much larger horizontal and vertical range than it looks and cancels out small projectiles while still keeping the wall up. Once your damage is high enough, Mewtwo can start air dodging out of all Sheik's kill options in the air, as mewtwo has the fastest air dodge in the game(frame 2, lasts 23 frames with low cooldown).

The second stage is when you both are going for the kill. Now in this stage, Mewtwo is significantly better at pressuring Sheik, now your Shadow Balls aren't just punishes for Needles, but also kills. Be sure to have fully charged Shadow Ball up as this will discourage extra damage from needles and allows for mix ups. Mewtwo can also provide platform pressure with Usmash, Fsmash is safe on shield, and Dsmash is safe in general. Confusion while easy to get out of if you spam it on your opponent, can be quite surprising if you suddenly whip it out at kill percents and can score an easy Fsmash while they are lost in the confusion(jokes). Finally, sheik is really pressured not to mess up an aerial as a simple grab or jab to grab can cause her to die. Meanwhile most of Sheik's kill options rely on Mewtwo being in the air, and as stated before you should be able to call her kill moves with your air dodge.

This is very helpful. I did not realize how much easier it is for Mewtwo to spot dodge than roll. Also I would agree his dash attack has great speed and range. How would you follow up a dash attack with aerials? They usually just jump away from me at that point. And yes air dodging is good, but I did not know the frame data so thanks for that. I noticed his Dsmash has better knockback in general than his Fsmash if you are unable to hit the sweet spot with Fsmash at the time.

Also what do you think about the combo of: Side special > they miss tech hit the ground> small shadow ball as a jab> and then confusion during their vulnerable get up frames> then smash attack. It seems this combo is easy to execute if they miss the tech from your side B.

 

[ZephyrZ]

Okay? No examples gives no meaning to what you're trying to say. Back up what you are trying to say "why" *for example* I'm not sure where your perspective is coming from; that when CPU's fight it has no merit? Who is to decide what "counts" as a good indicator. Yes it is obvious players fight differently than CPU's.

My point was to try and elicit ideas or constructive analysis as to why it is a tough match up. For example, Mewtwo can create more ranged pressure with a fully charged shadow ball at kill percentages. I was looking for other people's ideas and experiences that would follow a similar structure.

I'm not looking for opinions. I'm looking for hard facts and data for this matchup. Not an argumentation thread where players state how they think this matchup feels. Concrete details would be much appreciated and implored.

Strategies, mind games, techs, combos, ect. It's not exactly like CPUs follow and learn from the competitive community.

If you really want an example, take Mewtwo's teleport. That move has so much potential. It is Mewtwo's single best option for escaping juggles; and yet, CPUs never use it for that. All they ever use it for is recovery. No mind games, no juggle escapes, just recovery.

 

[Psyruby]

This is very helpful. I did not realize how much easier it is for Mewtwo to spot dodge than roll. Also I would agree his dash attack has great speed and range. How would you follow up a dash attack with aerials? They usually just jump away from me at that point. And yes air dodging is good, but I did not know the frame data so thanks for that. I noticed his Dsmash has better knockback in general than his Fsmash if you are unable to hit the sweet spot with Fsmash at the time.

Also what do you think about the combo of: Side special > they miss tech hit the ground> small shadow ball as a jab> and then confusion during their vulnerable get up frames> then smash attack. It seems this combo is easy to execute if they miss the tech from your side B.

Okay, following up Dash attack at extremely low percents(we talking 0-10%) true combos into Fair whether you hit with sour or sweetspot. If they are 10%-30%, you can attempt Fair or bait air dodge then fair, or if they jump away, jump after them with a chasing Up Air. If they are higher, it is a crap shot, but I'd go with Uair if you feel confident in your chase. Dsmash is easier to throw out, but be careful for people who like to roll behind you as the long animation leaves you vulnerable despite having low cooldown.

Finally I wouldn't use that combo. That combo requires you to hit confusion, your opponent not jump or tech the attack, then not jump or tech confusion again. All these things are unlikely. The better strategy is to just Fsmash immediately as most characters can't tech before Fsmash goes off(the game registers the attacks as a true combo in training... despite the fact that it is possible to jump out of confusion). HOWEVER, if you do catch your opponent not jumping or teching and get the shadow ball reset, I suggest using Disable for style points and then charging Down Smash to kill.

 

[Dark Phazon]

Does anyone else see this match up as being entirely in favor of Sheik? Mewtwo is so damn floaty and Sheik can easily beat the hell out of Mewtwo with combos. I can hardly beat a level 9 CPU Sheik, yet when i'm matching up in for glory I get some fair wins while using Mewtwo. Any analysis as to why Sheik destroys Mewtwo would be much appreciated.

First day i got Mew2 i faced a decent sheik although he was not very good but i kinda destroyed him.
Mind you this was litreally within my first 3 or so games of playing with mew2 because i just got him
On for glory
I will post it here later on.

 

[bleblock]

Okay, following up Dash attack at extremely low percents(we talking 0-10%) true combos into Fair whether you hit with sour or sweetspot. If they are 10%-30%, you can attempt Fair or bait air dodge then fair, or if they jump away, jump after them with a chasing Up Air. If they are higher, it is a crap shot, but I'd go with Uair if you feel confident in your chase. Dsmash is easier to throw out, but be careful for people who like to roll behind you as the long animation leaves you vulnerable despite having low cooldown.

Finally I wouldn't use that combo. That combo requires you to hit confusion, your opponent not jump or tech the attack, then not jump or tech confusion again. All these things are unlikely. The better strategy is to just Fsmash immediately as most characters can't tech before Fsmash goes off(the game registers the attacks as a true combo in training... despite the fact that it is possible to jump out of confusion). HOWEVER, if you do catch your opponent not jumping or teching and get the shadow ball reset, I suggest using Disable for style points and then charging Down Smash to kill.

The combo has been successful for me quite a bit. But that is probably due to most players not understanding what is going on, or getting them off guard. For the sweet spot, I was talking about the ground forward smash and not Fair. Fsmash has bonus damage and knock-back towards the end of the shock wave.

 

[Psyruby]

The combo has been successful for me quite a bit. But that is probably due to most players not understanding what is going on, or getting them off guard. For the sweet spot, I was talking about the ground forward smash and not Fair. Fsmash has bonus damage and knock-back towards the end of the shock wave.

I play pretty good players a lot, and almost 9/10 times they either jump or tech confusion before Fsmash goes off. However that 1/10 chance is wonderful as it leads to an early stock or lots of damage. Confusion is really about punishing people who like to use projectiles or stay in shield too much.

 

[srn347]

Mewtwo vs sheik used to be quite possibly the worst matchup in the game. That said, since melee mewtwo has gotten better while sheik has gotten worse (though remained pretty good). Mewtwo doesn't do too badly against sheik now (I'd say it's about a -2, or 70/30 as said above), but he needs to apply pressure or she'll chase him for days.

 

[Dhillz521]

I kill Sheik with ease.

 

[Karsticles]

I kill Sheik with ease.

Posts like these just let everyone else know you haven't played any good Sheik players, not that Mewtwo beats Sheik. It's not a good matchup. Not Mewtwo's worst, though. I'll give that to Yoshi.

 

[bleblock]

Posts like these just let everyone else know you haven't played any good Sheik players, not that Mewtwo beats Sheik. It's not a good matchup. Not Mewtwo's worst, though. I'll give that to Yoshi.

Posts like these are irrelevant to the discussion and fail to contribute substance. You may provide methods for playing against Sheik; or elaborate person data from your Mewtwo experience.

Else; discarded.

Thank you.

 

[HakuryuVision]

Posts like these are irrelevant to the discussion and fail to contribute substance. You may provide methods for playing against Sheik; or elaborate person data from your Mewtwo experience.

Else; discarded.

Thank you.

...you were replying to Dhillon521, right?

 

[Chiroz]

...you were replying to Dhillon521, right?

He was stating that "is not a good matchup" doesn't help the thread/discussion at hand.



Also Yoshi isn't Mewtwo's worst matchup. In fact I don't think Yoshi is even a bad matchup (compared to others like Sheik or Mario). I have an easier time fighting Yoshi with Mewtwo than I do with most other chars.

Still Yoshi is my most hated character in general. Way too easy to use since his frame data is so ridiculous you can just spam your way to victory.

 

[Karsticles]

He was stating that "is not a good matchup" doesn't help the thread/discussion at hand.



Also Yoshi isn't Mewtwo's worst matchup. In fact I don't think Yoshi is even a bad matchup (compared to others like Sheik or Mario). I have an easier time fighting Yoshi with Mewtwo than I do with most other chars.

Still Yoshi is my most hated character in general. Way too easy to use since his frame data is so ridiculous you can just spam your way to victory.

His point was that the why I quoted contributed nothing to the thread. I told the guy off, but the OP, for some reason, thought it made more sense to get upset at me instead of him.

I have a Yoshi I want you to play. I get wrecked by him consistently with Mewtwo, to the point where I won't even try anymore. One of two things will happen:
1) You will be destroyed, and you will agree with me.
2) You will do great, save your replays, and send them to me so I can see what I am missing.

Interested?

 

[Chiroz]

His point was that the why I quoted contributed nothing to the thread. I told the guy off, but the OP, for some reason, thought it made more sense to get upset at me instead of him.

I have a Yoshi I want you to play. I get wrecked by him consistently with Mewtwo, to the point where I won't even try anymore. One of two things will happen:
1) You will be destroyed, and you will agree with me.
2) You will do great, save your replays, and send them to me so I can see what I am missing.

Interested?

Sure, I'll play him.

But honestly being destroyed doesn't mean I'll agree with you . I am not the best plater in the world, your friend can be better than me, doesn't mean Yoshi is the worst matchup for Mewtwo. I will reserve my opinions until after I've played your friend but I will say that I've played with Sheiks and Marios that basically combo me until I am very close to kill %, the match feels reaaally lopsided for me.



Anyways, this won't be very fun, I really hate Yoshis, I hate most characters that are just easy "spam until you hit confirm".

 

[NamikazeBurst]

Sure, I'll play him.

But honestly being destroyed doesn't mean I'll agree with you . I am not the best plater in the world, your friend can be better than me, doesn't mean Yoshi is the worst matchup for Mewtwo. I will reserve my opinions until after I've played your friend but I will say that I've played with Sheiks and Marios that basically combo me until I am very close to kill %, the match feels reaaally lopsided for me.



Anyways, this won't be very fun, I really hate Yoshis, I hate most characters that are just easy "spam until you hit confirm".

I guess I am the guy up for the job. NNID is NamikazeBurst.

Just saw your post about frame data. Please go look at Yoshi's frame data. It definitely is not in his favour in the majority of matchups.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Thing with mewtwo and yoshi is mewtwo has no safe move. While yoshi has every safe move in the book.

Mewtwo really only has dtilt. And only egg roll is unsafe for yoshi.

 

[NamikazeBurst]

Thing with mewtwo and yoshi is mewtwo has no safe move. While yoshi has every safe move in the book.

Mewtwo really only has dtilt. And only egg roll is unsafe for yoshi.

All smashes, dair, bair, side-B, down-B, pivot grab, grab, and dash grab are all unsafe for Yoshi. Mewtwo's dtilt is also better than Yoshi's.

 

[MagiusNecros]

All smashes, dair, bair, side-B, down-B, pivot grab, grab, and dash grab are all unsafe for Yoshi. Mewtwo's dtilt is also better than Yoshi's.

Well in my experience I find it difficult to punish Yoshi.

But Mewtwo is floaty and I play as fat lizards.

 

[Karsticles]

Sure, I'll play him.

But honestly being destroyed doesn't mean I'll agree with you . I am not the best plater in the world, your friend can be better than me, doesn't mean Yoshi is the worst matchup for Mewtwo. I will reserve my opinions until after I've played your friend but I will say that I've played with Sheiks and Marios that basically combo me until I am very close to kill %, the match feels reaaally lopsided for me.



Anyways, this won't be very fun, I really hate Yoshis, I hate most characters that are just easy "spam until you hit confirm".

At the very least, you will be able to sympathize with why I think it is a horrible matchup for Mewtwo. Nami is the guy I want you to play. I have played well over a hundred matches against his Yoshi.

All smashes, dair, bair, side-B, down-B, pivot grab, grab, and dash grab are all unsafe for Yoshi. Mewtwo's dtilt is also better than Yoshi's.

His smashes have quite a bit of pushback. Down B is extremely safe for the kind of move it is. Play Bowser and you will know what I mean.

Yoshi has safe OPTIONS in any situation, though. That is what matters. Nair, Fair, Uair, Jabs, and one of the best dash attacks in the game, combined with quite a bit of weight, recovery options that are hard to beat, excellent mobility, and an exceptional projectile game make him very safe and hard to deal with.

 

[Chiroz]

I guess I am the guy up for the job. NNID is NamikazeBurst.

Just saw your post about frame data. Please go look at Yoshi's frame data. It definitely is not in his favour in the majority of matchups.

Just added you.



You have 11 frames on landing lag and a frame 3 jab. You seem to be forgetting that there's shield stun (about 3 frames) and shield drop (7 frames) to go through and that many characters don't have attacks that are faster than 3-5 frames to beat/clash with your jab.

You also have 14 frames of landing lag on an attack that has more range than a sword wielder and has more hitstun that Bowser.

B-Air has so much pushback that the opponent will last longer in shield stun, shield drop and acceleration than you will in landing lag. D-Air pokes through shield if you initiate it on the opponent, although it is relatively unsafe if not initiated right on top of him.

Jab is almost unpunisheable by Mewtwo since our grab range is ass.

Your smashes have enough pushback where you can't be punished by anything but projectiles by a majority of the cast, the problem is the startup.



Compare Yoshi's frame data and his shield stun/shield push to other characters and you'll realize just how stupid his stuff is.



On top of that Egg Throw is one of the best projectiles ever since it's arc covers most approaches, aerial and grounded and you can change the trajectory to make it match your opponent's location.




Most of the time you need to PS Yoshi to actually punish him. Playing online also doesn't help with delay and lag making it hard to PS and taking away your 1-3 frames available to punish (since you have to account for shield stun, shield drop AND that Mewtwo doesn't have anything faster than frame 6).

 

[NamikazeBurst]

Just added you.



You have 11 frames on landing lag and a frame 3 jab. You seem to be forgetting that there's shield stun (about 3 frames) and shield drop (7 frames) to go through and that many characters don't have attacks that are faster than 3-5 frames to beat/clash with your jab.

You also have 14 frames of landing lag on an attack that has more range than a sword wielder and has more hitstun that Bowser.

B-Air has so much pushback that the opponent will last longer in shield stun, shield drop and acceleration than you will in landing lag. D-Air pokes through shield if you initiate it on the opponent, although it is relatively unsafe if not initiated right on top of him.

Jab is almost unpunisheable by Mewtwo since our grab range is ***.

Your smashes have enough pushback where you can't be punished by anything but projectiles by a majority of the cast, the problem is the startup.



Compare Yoshi's frame data and his shield stun/shield push to other characters and you'll realize just how stupid his stuff is.



On top of that Egg Throw is one of the best projectiles ever since it's arc covers most approaches, aerial and grounded and you can change the trajectory to make it match your opponent's location.




Most of the time you need to PP Yoshi to actually punish him. Playing online also doesn't help with delay and lag making it hard to PP and taking away your 1-3 frames available to punish (since you have to account for shield stun, shield drop AND that Mewtwo doesn't have anything faster than frame 6).

From the sounds of it, you are only thinking in terms of Mewtwo. If you think Yoshi is this good against Mewtwo, how is he not Mewtwo's worst matchup? The majority of the cast can shield grab Yoshi out of his jab. Yoshi's usmash is really his only good one. Fsmash has too much start-up, and you say the majority cannot punish because of the pushback, but from my thousands of battles of experience, the majority can punish.

You can't just talk about endlag and landing lag. Yoshi's fair is one of the slowest fairs in the game, and almost anybody can beat it out with a quicker move. Yoshi has a ton of trouble against Marth because our aerials get stuffed out, and then we have to utilize our ground game. Bair is easily punishable by a lot of characters, even when spaced. Go to the Yoshi boards and tell them Yoshi's frame data is amazing.

I cannot play right now and likely won't be able to until tomorrow.

 

[Chiroz]

From the sounds of it, you are only thinking in terms of Mewtwo. If you think Yoshi is this good against Mewtwo, how is he not Mewtwo's worst matchup? The majority of the cast can shield grab Yoshi out of his jab. Yoshi's usmash is really his only good one. Fsmash has too much start-up, and you say the majority cannot punish because of the pushback, but from my thousands of battles of experience, the majority can punish.

You can't just talk about endlag and landing lag. Yoshi's fair is one of the slowest fairs in the game, and almost anybody can beat it out with a quicker move. Yoshi has a ton of trouble against Marth because our aerials get stuffed out, and then we have to utilize our ground game. Bair is easily punishable by a lot of characters, even when spaced. Go to the Yoshi boards and tell them Yoshi's frame data is amazing.

I cannot play right now and likely won't be able to until tomorrow.

If you don't trust me then listen from Zero himself say in his video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oz56j_XB5f8): "Despite Yoshi having amazing frame data, there's just a lack of results, I would place him all the way on top tier but I have to be fair and look at results".

Also from a conversation I had myself with Mr. R and Vinnie just yesterday one of the two of them placed Yoshi in the top 5 chars of the game (I asked them both who they though were the best characters in the game, I can't remember who answered what but basically: Sheik, Rosa, Luigi, Mario, Fox, Pikachu, Yoshi, Sonic). The reason Mr. R or Vinnie said Yoshi was top 5 was because he had one of the best frame datas out of all chars and that he was a technical character who had lots of potential.



If you're just spamming F-Air randomly it can be punished easily, I am talking about spacing it and mixing it up between your projectiles and overall great mobility.

I am talking about endlag and landing lag because I am talking about punishing Yoshi, I never said Yoshi was OP, I am saying he can spam to avoid being punished and it works! Instead of, you know, intelligently having to think out when to throw attacks so he doesn't get punished.

For me, it's not as much that a good Yoshi is unbeatable (although apparently a lot of pros agree on him being really good, so there's that), it's that a bad Yoshi can do so much better than he should by just picking up Yoshi.

Same thing that happens with Luigi, you don't really need to be that great at the char to be semi-effective.




As for why I fight him with Mewtwo? Shadow Ball really helps a lot fight Yoshi. I find it easier to fight Yoshi with Mewtwo because I can take it slow and just make the few punishes that I get actually be worthwhile.

Also I would say fighting anyone with Mewtwo is hard. I legitimately don't know any matchup where I am actually happy to be playing Mewtwo. At most all I can think of is: "Well, at least we're about even". So Yoshi being hard is not a "special case", it's basically the life of a Mewtwo main.



Ok, let me know when you're available to play. You can quote me on this thread or just PM me.

 

[RayNoire]

I honestly don't see how Yoshi ever loses on WiFi.

Offline he's one of our harder matchups, but more in the "I'm just a better character" sense than the "hard counter invalidation" sense.

 

[Chiroz]

I honestly don't see how Yoshi ever loses on WiFi.

Offline he's one of our harder matchups, but more in the "I'm just a better character" sense than the "hard counter invalidation" sense.

This is what I believe too. Online makes it much harder since PSing becomes harder. Offline it's still a hard matchup but just go for PSs, if you don't get the PS then just don't try and punish. Play safe and patiently.

It's nowhere near as bad as Mario or Sheik.



And as I said I actually prefer fighting Yoshi as Mewtwo because I figure I can't punish him most of the time so I might as well make my punishes count (and Mewtwo's attack count :3, specially if you have a fully charged SB ready).

It's not really a "Mewtwo is good at this matchup" thing, it's more of a "I get too annoyed at Yoshi if I can only punish for 6% and then I get desperate and play horribly" thing, lol.

I hate Yoshi's, they beat me because I get too desperate. No offense Namikaze .

 

[MagiusNecros]

Mewtwo has to rely on hard reads, prediction and trickery.

Just like Ganon.

And a character that has problems like that just isn't high on the viability meter.

 

[Karsticles]

I can beat people with Yoshi, and I don't even know what I am doing. :/

I haven't had trouble beating Mario with Mewtwo. Sheik is definitely close to unwinnable if the opponent is competent, though.

I think Rosalina is even, though, and Luigi is doable.

Actually, the more I have learned to play Mewtwo like Dormammu, the better I have been doing. The only matchup I 100% HATE is Ness.

 

[NamikazeBurst]

This is what I believe too. Online makes it much harder since PSing becomes harder. Offline it's still a hard matchup but just go for PSs, if you don't get the PS then just don't try and punish. Play safe and patiently.

It's nowhere near as bad as Mario or Sheik.



And as I said I actually prefer fighting Yoshi as Mewtwo because I figure I can't punish him most of the time so I might as well make my punishes count (and Mewtwo's attack count :3, specially if you have a fully charged SB ready).

It's not really a "Mewtwo is good at this matchup" thing, it's more of a "I get too annoyed at Yoshi if I can only punish for 6% and then I get desperate and play horribly" thing, lol.

I hate Yoshi's, they beat me because I get too desperate. No offense Namikaze .

I am ready to play now, and probably for the rest of the night.

I can beat people with Yoshi, and I don't even know what I am doing. :/

I haven't had trouble beating Mario with Mewtwo. Sheik is definitely close to unwinnable if the opponent is competent, though.

I think Rosalina is even, though, and Luigi is doable.

Actually, the more I have learned to play Mewtwo like Dormammu, the better I have been doing. The only matchup I 100% HATE is Ness.

I can beat people with Mewtwo, and I don't know what I am doing. I mostly just try to copy your style but more aggressive. I obviously cannot beat good people, though.

Wouldn't that mean you hate Lucas too?