Metaknight's worst matchups

[AcidJazz]

Who and why?

 

[ChromeSonic00]

Try Pit, he has good projectiles, a spammable special (Sde-B) and is good at close combat.
(I could be wrong, of course.)

 

[lorddave551]

link can be pretty nasty his down air tends to kill floaty characters like metaknight pretty early.

 

[yoonkwun]

Rob usually tends to **** my Meta Knight, but maybe it's just me.

It's always that dreidel-type projectile, I don't know what it's called.

 

[PukeTShirt]

Its his gyro. And ROB ***** everyone lol

 

[yoonkwun]

Its his gyro. And ROB ***** everyone lol

Yeah, and not to mention his neutral A(?) I think it is, it's where he continuously smashes the ground with pretty good range.

One of the Rob's I've played spammed that, I tried dash attacking him but got hit, B-> but got hit, and when i tried doing a shorthop dair he smashed me and I died, so it sucked.

 

[J0K3R]

Snake is a ***** for MK because of how easy snake can KO him with camping projectile game.

 

[greenmetaknightfan]

I gotta say marth just beause he has counter and he can change directions quickly with his side b so when he does counter meta knights D cape is useless against him due to quick followups.

COUNTER IS GAY

 

[Admiral Pit]

Pit is an obvious choice. Projectiles give Meta Knight problems. Thankfully, Pit is one of my mains. The shield could be used as an offensive weapon (this is a pro's tactic). Arrows are typical. I dont need to say anything else about this magnificient Angel ^^

Zelda causes trouble with Din's Fire. As we all know, Brawl's Din's fire has greater explosion range and is easier to control. Zelda's kill moves (The lightning kicks, U-Smash, F-Smash, U-Air and sometimes D-Smash) have chances of KOing Meta Knight before he hits the 100% line, especially U-air. Her teleportation, when used a lot (This is my strategy) can cause frustration for Meta Knight. The Projectile is the main reason.

Though I think Donkey Kong is 100% Meta Knight counter, he's still a decent counter. With all those KO moves, the Meta Knight player had better know how to avoid the moves before he gets to the 100% line, or lights out. DK's F-Smash and U-Smash are 2 dangerous attacks that can KO Meta fast.

Similar to DK's, Bowser is a Tank and it takes a while for Meta Knight to KO him. If Bowser's Power attacks connect, Meta Knight will be in trouble. Bowser is only effective in close-combat, and without Projectiles, Meta Knight must engage the Tank. Fire breath causes trouble when used correctly. In this matchup, skill can play a major factor in achieving victory. A pro Bowser could level even a pro Meta Knight if that Meta does not have much defensive skills.

I dont know why I'm mentioning a character I hate, but Pikachu... yea. His Thunder does good when Meta Knight is Gliding. I know this because my Pit suffered from some Pika Thunders by gliding (Even though i still say Pit is a counter to Pika). Pika's Projectile is also trouble.

A Link player that has mastered his projectiles can pose a threat to Meta Knight.

Marth outranges Meta Knight, but i dont want to talk about this guy, because I dont like him.

That's all I can give you. May it help you well.
This is the Admiral, Over and Out.

 

[J0K3R]

Pit is an obvious choice. Projectiles give Meta Knight problems. Thankfully, Pit is one of my mains. The shield could be used as an offensive weapon (this is a pro's tactic). Arrows are typical. I dont need to say anything else about this magnificient Angel ^^

Zelda causes trouble with Din's Fire. As we all know, Brawl's Din's fire has greater explosion range and is easier to control. Zelda's kill moves (The lightning kicks, U-Smash, F-Smash, U-Air and sometimes D-Smash) have chances of KOing Meta Knight before he hits the 100% line, especially U-air. Her teleportation, when used a lot (This is my strategy) can cause frustration for Meta Knight. The Projectile is the main reason.

Though I think Donkey Kong is 100% Meta Knight counter, he's still a decent counter. With all those KO moves, the Meta Knight player had better know how to avoid the moves before he gets to the 100% line, or lights out. DK's F-Smash and U-Smash are 2 dangerous attacks that can KO Meta fast.

Similar to DK's, Bowser is a Tank and it takes a while for Meta Knight to KO him. If Bowser's Power attacks connect, Meta Knight will be in trouble. Bowser is only effective in close-combat, and without Projectiles, Meta Knight must engage the Tank. Fire breath causes trouble when used correctly. In this matchup, skill can play a major factor in achieving victory. A pro Bowser could level even a pro Meta Knight if that Meta does not have much defensive skills.

I dont know why I'm mentioning a character I hate, but Pikachu... yea. His Thunder does good when Meta Knight is Gliding. I know this because my Pit suffered from some Pika Thunders by gliding (Even though i still say Pit is a counter to Pika). Pika's Projectile is also trouble.

A Link player that has mastered his projectiles can pose a threat to Meta Knight.

Marth outranges Meta Knight, but i dont want to talk about this guy, because I dont like him.

That's all I can give you. May it help you well.
This is the Admiral, Over and Out.

Are you serious with DK?

DK can get gimped so easily his vertical recovery doesnt stand a chance

 

[Orpheus]

Link gives me a hell of a time.
Stupid range.

I fear Ike's fast KO abilities.

 

[Verdugo]

Anyone with good vertical KO abilities can cause a lot of trouble for MK.

 

[AcidJazz]

I don't know why people keep saying Marth out ranges Meta... That's only in certain situations. MK's priority doesn't allow marth's range to have a factor. If you dair, marth can't uair without getting hit granted the range may technically be longer. A lot of situations like that holds true. MK's forward smash outranges my normal attack and attacks as fast or faster than my normal attack.

Marth has too much lag vs MK. Dodging is worthless vs MK as marth and his moves are always out prioritized. ROB is kind of predictable to be a solid competition against top tier but maybe I just need work with him. He does die really late.

I'm going to give pit and pikachu a try.

 

[.kR0]

Snake and Ike.

For obvious reasons.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Snake and Marth are the most obvious ones IMO.

They are comparable as characters. And they both rack up damage fast, but the main thing is that Marth DOES outrange Metaknight and Marth kills Metaknight alot sooner then he kills Marth.

Metaknight is faster then Marth, but not enough to make a huge difference. They are comparable in speed.

They are not comparable in power though. Marth hits far harder then Metaknight. Marth can camp Metaknight hard which gives him the advantage. And Marth and MK are pretty even in priority although Marth may have a bit more.

Marth really can't gimp Metaknight, but that's ok since Marth kills MK early around 80%. And Marth isn't extremely easy to gimp either, unlike say Wolf who is pretty much the easiest character to gimp in the game.


Marth has advantage in the match-up. They are both fast, but MK's can't rack up damage as well as Marth because he isn't as strong. Marth has dancing blade and is generally stronger. Airdodge denies MK's possible combos while Marth has dancing blade and d-tilt combos to fall back on. MK also has d-tilt combos, but will have less opportunity to use them since he has trouble getting in. Also MK won't kill Marth until usually around 120%, which gives Marth more time to deal damage and KO MK.

Also Marth only lags more on his smashes, but a smart Marth isn't going to be throwing out smashes left and right. He he will use them to net kills and that's it. Marth can use his non-laggy moves to zone MK and make it hard to approach.

There is simply no way MK has advantage or even has a 50/50 match-up with Marth.

Snake has a solid advantage. His tilts have the same range as Marth's and more power and alot of priority. He can kill MK just as easily as Marth. And he can camp the hell out of MK making it very hard to approach. And when MK gets in he has to deal with Snake's superior range, power and priority not to mention that even though Snake moves slow he attacks FAST with all his tilts and his jab combo.

This is probably MK's worst match-up.

 

[Admiral Pit]

Are you serious with DK?

DK can get gimped so easily his vertical recovery doesnt stand a chance

Dont underestimate the Ape or the Flame Tank. They can be harder than you think. If my Meta Knight lost to a DK (he did before), then DK is good to use, though he aint the best to use. I'd stick with Pit and Zelda on countering Meta Knight, and occasionally use Bowser to keep my Bowser Pride.

 

[lonelytraveler8]

@Emblem Lord

I have no comments on Snake, but I think you're overestimating Marth a bit. Meta Knight does indeed have a noticeable speed difference over Marth, but you're right that it won't help tons (but it will help). But the main thing is that Marth's sword is shorter in Brawl than it was in Melee and only a few of his attacks (neutral B and fsmash, for example) have a much large range than Meta's attacks.

The lag after attacks by Marth are definitely have more lag than Meta's and Meta Knight can just as easily air dodge much of Marth's attacks.

Also, Meta Knight as a lot more approaching options and combo options to keep the Marth guessing, and then the Meta can throw in mind games. Marth's approaching options are very limited in comparison, and other than mind games, a good Meta player should be able to prepare themselves a fair amount of the time.

The one thing I hate that Marth has against Meta is his counter. Meta will be all over Marth once he gets that first hit in and that counter can just come out of nowhere and screw with possible combos.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Marth and Meta are tied for best approach IMO.

You said combo. My brain just exploded. There are no "combos" in Brawl. Airdodge denies it.

Does it make me sad? Yes it does. But it is so.

Meta has trouble vs camping characters just like Marth does. In this match Marth can camp right in Meta's face and MK will have a hard time with him.

If Marth aggro's Meta then it's even. But if Marth camps him and plays smart then MK is at disadvantage.

I mean what options does MK have to approach that Marth doesn't besides his dash attack that are viable in high level play? Also Marth has better aerials for approach because they actually do set up for a combo that isn't escapable at lower percents.

I'm not overestimating Marth, Notice how I said he ahs slight advantage. If you want to see gross overestimation talk to gimpyfish who thinks that Marth ***** MK, which I do not believe.

Also if you compare all of thier attacks Marth has more range on everyone and that's all that matters really. Yes, Marth has less range then in melee. So what? This isn't a melee and brawl comparison. This is match-up analysis.

The main reason MK is at disadvantage is that Marth can camp him which allows Marth to control the match and Marth will kill MK early while MK will struggle to kill Marth.

 

[Dakoshie Yukazami]

Pit is really bad for Meta......but what I do is get in range with one of my specials and start comboing the mess out of them

 

[lonelytraveler8]

This post is a little unorganized because I'm being a little rushed.

Marth and Meta are tied for best approach IMO.

You said combo. My brain just exploded. There are no "combos" in Brawl. Airdodge denies it.

Does it make me sad? Yes it does. But it is so.

Meta has trouble vs camping characters just like Marth does. In this match Marth can camp right in Meta's face and MK will have a hard time with him.

If Marth aggro's Meta then it's even. But if Marth camps him and plays smart then MK is at disadvantage.

I mean what options does MK have to approach that Marth doesn't besides his dash attack that are viable in high level play? Also Marth has better aerials for approach because they actually do set up for a combo that isn't escapable at lower percents.

I'm not overestimating Marth, Notice how I said he ahs slight advantage. If you want to see gross overestimation talk to gimpyfish who thinks that Marth ***** MK, which I do not believe.

Also if you compare all of thier attacks Marth has more range on everyone and that's all that matters really. Yes, Marth has less range then in melee. So what? This isn't a melee and brawl comparison. This is match-up analysis.

The main reason MK is at disadvantage is that Marth can camp him which allows Marth to control the match and Marth will kill MK early while MK will struggle to kill Marth.

I was just making sure you realized that Marth didn't have that much range on Meta Knight.

And combos in this game are different than in melee. There are combos, there's just not ability to continuously hit someone while they are stunned. Yes, you can airdodge, but it's not going to get your out of every situation.

Marth's aerials may be good, but I still only see a handful of options for approach. MK has gliding, two specials (drill rush, which shouldn't be used excessively, and Mach Tornado), SH aerials, dash attack and dash grab. Marth has three of these, which is only half. That's not counting the various mind games to mix up the situation and attempt to confuse the opponent.

Speaking of which, trying to fake out Meta Knight is a lot harder than faking out a Marth. The lag on most (but not all, of course) of MK's attacks are near lagless. The same is definitely not true for Marth.

Another problem with Marth is that I tend to find is recovery fairly easy to gimp. He definitely does not have bad recovery, but it's slow enough to give MK ample time to move out and do just about whatever he wants to.

Marth has range and power. Meta has speed and options.

It comes down to who can utilize their strengths better. Marth was my alternate in Melee (Dr. Mario, too!). I loved him. I still use him now. The difference in how they move is very different and missed attacks by Marth tend to leave him wide open. But then MK gets knocked around like the cotton ball he is. Analyzing their strengths and weaknesses doesn't get too far in this situation. Beyond their sword, they have nothing in common. If one does indeed have an advantage, the difference is small enough that other variables, such as stage, can easily shift the balance on that.

PS - I mentioned the glide as an approach, but I left out the glide attack part because we both know that although the glide attack has an ridiculous amount of range, Marth's fsmash is basically a wall, so utilizing the glide for anything else other than mind games would be deadly.

Also, does anyone know who's dtilt is better? I won't be able to play again for another day or two. I think MK's comes out a little bit faster and might have a little more range. Well, I'm not completely sure about the range, but it does have the nifty property of pushing him foward slightly, so if you're just out of range on the first try, the second one might hit without having to readjust your position.

 

[Emblem Lord]

A combo is a string of consectutive hits that can't be escaped.

That's what a combo is. Let's leave it at that. I'm not gonna argue aboutt he definition of a combo since half the brawl boards is about just that.

Thier d-tilts are pretty equal IMO. Both come out fast, Marth has more range, and slighyl more power and it leads to free hits. MK's trips you and leads to a free d-smash or follow-up attack. Both thier d-tilts move you forward.

Look you are saying alot of stuff but you aren't touching upon the stuff that matters the most. How can MK effectively deal with Marth's camping in his face and how does he kill Marth consistently before Marth kills him. The answer is he can't.

Marth has an easier time in this match, because MK's pressure leads to nothing and Marth is over stronger. Marth controls the match therefore it's his advantage.

Marth doesn't need to approach. He outranges MK. MK has to approach and Marth can shut down alot of them with little effort.

Drill rush? Counter it on reaction or use shieldbreaker.

Mach Tornado? Counter it on reaction or use shieldbreaker.

SH aerials? No. MK loses in range so using SH aerials isn't wise, plus you lose momentum when you SH which kills your approach. SH aerials as approach isn't that great.

Marth has the best SH aerial approach since even though he loses momentum he has very little lag on landing and has good range so it's easy to stay safe on block. MK has less range so it's harder to stay safe on landing with an aerial. Who can use them to zone by using SH aerials then DIing back, but this sin't wise vs Marth since he will just camp.

Being near lagless means little if MK has to get in close and risk attacking which means Marth will outprioritze him thanks to his range and power. Also SH Fair will beat MK's dash attack and his dash grab approaches. I'm not saying MK has no options. He does, but they are risky and put him in danger.

Marth is in less danger and is more of threat to MK then MK is to him. Also Marth's dancing blade punishes any mistake MK makes and one wrong move means MK dies at 60 -70 from tipper f-smash.

You said Marth has range and power while MK has speed and options.

This is incorrect.

Marth has options, range, and power. All MK has is speed.

This match goes to Marth.

 

[lonelytraveler8]

You can disregard this post, if you wish. I don't take back any of what I said, but since we're arguing based strictly on the attributes on the characters, I'm going to thoroughly test their various attacks' range and priority and record my findings in video. I'll post my findings on here and a complete evaluation on the match-up based on the results. It won't be perfect, of course, but I'll do my best.


Alright, by that definition, Brawl definitely does not have any combos. At least none that are more than 2-3 attacks in length. Even these disappear quickly after knockback is diminished and damage increases.. I'll leave it at that if you wish.

I can't disagree with a lot of what you said, but I find your point on approaches to be somewhat weak. SH aerials are by far the best approach for MK and that doesn't change against Marth. The only problem is that you can't simply rush in and expect to win automatically. So playing Marth will mean that MK has to play differently than he typically does. He'll, of course, have to be more defensive and evasive. He's one of the best at punishing mistakes.

There is one big issue here that I can't leave out. Most, if not all, of what you say is based on the assumption that the Marth will make no mistakes and on the assumption that if MK can't rush in and win head to head encounters, then he's screwed. Tippers on the fsmash, for example, are not so easy anymore. Countering on reaction, again, assumes that the player can see it coming and react before it's too late. All of the options that I listed and you rejected can be played as mind games rather than attacks, if necessary.

I'm going to stop here for now. I have little knowledge on the specifics of range and priority in this match-up, so I can't honestly post anything more. I'm going to test various aspects of the match up when I get back home.

I'm completely clueless on priority between the two, and I have reason to believe that Marth's range is not as significant as I think it is at the moment (based on a couple lousy videos I just watched. It's not definitive proof, hence why I want to test it). In fact, I think MK may have more range or similar range in some situations (ftilt vs ftilt, MK usmash vs Marth dair, fair vs fair, etc). I know Marth's sword is shorter than in Melee, but I didn't realize this until after I had played around with him. At the current moment I have no idea how long it actually is...I can only bring the Melee sword to mind, which was insanely longer than MK's sword is here in Brawl.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Of course they will both make mistakes. But I think I talked about that before.

Marth can make more mistakes then MK can simply because MK will have more trouble killing Marth then Marth will with MK.

MK makes a mistake and he is over 80 then he is dead.

Marth can make more mistakes and still be ok until about 120%

See what I mean? If a character has to work harder and doesn't have the attributes to even things out when they get in their hits then it's their opponent's advantage.

They can both play mindgames so this isn't relevent to the argument.

By that logic you could say Pichu could mindgame shiek in Melee. It wouldn't mean that the match-up was in Pichu's favor.

For match-ups you look at attributes and then look at the best strats for both characters and apply them to the match-up to see who comes out on top.

I'm not saying Marth destroys MK or ***** his **** or that MK can't win.

All I'm saying is that MK has to work harder for little reward and he doesn't control the match.

So from this we can come to the conclusion that it is Marth's advantage.

 

[lonelytraveler8]

Last thing I have to say before I come back with definitive information. And even then, I'll be able to state with better certainty what I'm about to say.

MK is not screwed once he hits 80%. I've watched various videos of MK vs Marth, and did my best to find some good players. I found set of fights that was really good (and quite fun to watch). even against a good Marth, the Meta Knight player consistently survived over 120% and sometimes as high as ~175%. Yes, a tippered fsmash would kill a lot lower (more around 90-100), but as I said before, a tipper fsmash is not so easy to hit with, especially if the opponent is smart enough to be wary of them.

I'll post the findings of my research so we can discuss again.

Here are the two best videos I found. One went to MK, the other two Marth. I'm not going to critique their ability. That would be pointless right now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sd9KOiFhZnU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDzH7vTzVZk

 

[Emblem Lord]

Ahh, but if MK can consistently live till 120 then how high will Marth live?

180?

Also tipper f-smash will kill around 80. Non-tippered F-smash is trash.

Thing is alot of Marth's spam f-smash and don't know wtf they are doing.

 

[lonelytraveler8]

A lot. Sure. But that Marth definitely new what he was doing. The 180 was partly a fluke and partly due to the games knockback reduction.

MK can gimp Marth's recovery and kill him as low as...40% sometimes. Not common, but it can happen. A well placed Shuttle Loop can finish almost any character around 80-90%. And dsmashes killing capability widely vary. They can kill with a powerful blow as low as 90-100% or just knock them off the stage as high as 120%. It depends on where they get hit by it and how often the MK player uses it. MK doesn't need to build damage to 150%+ to kill. In fact, if you don't finish them off at or earlier than 120%, it can get tricky until you land a dsmash or Shuttle Loop, which will almost always KO at those percentages.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Ugh at those matches.

Seriously the MK was fine but not the Marth. At first he camped well, but you could tell that when he was losing that he was getting very impatient and just mindlessly SH fairing.

Plus his spacing was't too great.

Where was the ground game as well?

Gah.

 

[mrk]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dh2d7Sl155s

I personally like that MK vs. Marth a bit better...

 

[Zenjamin]

I would just like to say, that DDD counters most all of your counters that you have listed.

even marth... well, nobody really really counters marth, but DDD does better against him then most.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I don't think Marth has any bad match-ups really.

I think he goes even with Dedede.

 

[DrSalvador]

I would have to say that Marth isn't a bad matchup for MK, but he certainly isn't a good one either. He is fairly neutral. A good MK versus a good Marth will probably lead to a lot of dodging and air time.

Wolf is actually a good matchup for MK... while he is on the ground. Once he gets off the stage however, MK gimps ftw.

PIT is pretty much an MK with kill power and projectiles. This means he is a awful matchup for the MK player. The only advantage MK would have is when Pit ends up under the stage and has to use him Up-B. Thats an easy gimp.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Actually I take back what I said about Dedede vs Marth. I forgot about Dedede's chain grab.

Marth vs Dedede is definitely in Dedede's favor.

 

[MLG Masa]

I would have to say that Marth isn't a bad matchup for MK, but he certainly isn't a good one either. He is fairly neutral. A good MK versus a good Marth will probably lead to a lot of dodging and air time.

Wolf is actually a good matchup for MK... while he is on the ground. Once he gets off the stage however, MK gimps ftw.

PIT is pretty much an MK with kill power and projectiles. This means he is a awful matchup for the MK player. The only advantage MK would have is when Pit ends up under the stage and has to use him Up-B. Thats an easy gimp.

Personally I dont have trouble with pit. MK beats Pit once in the air. However a character like DDD that has the KO potential and awesome airs poses a bigger threat to MK. Only thing, he is slow and its easy to air dodge just about anything he can dish out. But DDD airs vs MK, DDD wins. For the most part, the hardest characters fo MK would have to be characters with good recovery. Its so easy to take someone to thier death or dair a few times after you knock em off the stage to get kills.

 

[Phyvo]

[edit] Oops, delete this, I posted in the wrong thread. >.> [/edit]

 

[W.Jr]

i say pit or marth

 

[X6488]

Pit is no problem for Meta Knight. Mach Tornado cancels out most of his arrows if they aren't perfectly aimed, and he lacks KO moves just like him.

The worst matchup for him is probably Snake. He's heavy, can cover the stage with powerful explosions, and his tilts are both extremely strong AND fast. I think they have more priority than most of MK's attacks, too.

 

[Christova]

Ike causes problems for MK, but whenever I play MK I see huge problems against Zelda, Marth, and Pit. I think everyone's already covered the reasons why this is so, but I'd like to add that since Zelda and Pit handle in a way that is a little more ...agile, for lack of a better word, MK players have to constantly be on guard. Also, watch out for sideB.

 

[KHaN_911]

Pikachu. It is difficult to get back on the stage and into position with his down b. He isn't the easiest to edgeguard either.

 

[Terra-SB]

thanks guys, all the more ppl that make battles harder with MK just makes thing much more fun.

well i guess its time to train on all these and counter all MK's weaknesses. ^^

 

[boom-man97]

im gonna say wolf cause his forward smash has crazy long range and can kill meta easily