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Metaknight Is Impossible

Kabuto Mushi

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 25, 2008
Messages
252
Wow. I just lost like 5 times in a row to a really tough Metaknight player.

Tell me you have suggestions for how to step up my game with Olimar! he just chops up my pikmin and runs around doing that dash-A kick attack, then his Up smash to finish me off. PLEASE HELP!!!!!!

(BTW we were playing no items, Final destination... )
 

TrueRedemption

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 26, 2007
Messages
278
His range is nothing special, even on his dash attack. Learn the timing of your attacks (you should be getting fairly comfortable if you've been playing a fair amount since... yesterday =P) as well as the timing of his dash attack, its quick, but it doesn't mean you can't react to it =) Once you have the timing, just use your awesome range advantage, not with Latch necessarily, but grab or Fsmash/Dsmash. You wont be able to get a ton of damage from latch because of MK's ease removing them, but he has very little range on his attacks and poor KO moves, so exploit that.
You should be living easily to 180% + on FD if your DIing well, so just put in the effort to really watch his attacks, and react/anticipate correctly to make use of the range advantage. Its just like baseball, sure a fastball isn't easy to hit at first cause its moving fast. But after 20 fastballs, if you think about and learn from the first 19, you know how fast to expect it, and can then anticipate the speed and swing at the correct time. Theres a lot of characters, but to be good at SSBB we're going to have to learn the timing on just about all of their moves =) fortunately playing more will help you do this naturally, give it time, but if a single move is beating you, especially a small range quick move like MK's dash, just really put effort into learning the timing.


-True
 

Kabuto Mushi

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 25, 2008
Messages
252
His range is nothing special, even on his dash attack. Learn the timing of your attacks (you should be getting fairly comfortable if you've been playing a fair amount since... yesterday =P) as well as the timing of his dash attack, its quick, but it doesn't mean you can't react to it =) Once you have the timing, just use your awesome range advantage, not with Latch necessarily, but grab or Fsmash/Dsmash. You wont be able to get a ton of damage from latch because of MK's ease removing them, but he has very little range on his attacks and poor KO moves, so exploit that.
You should be living easily to 180% + on FD if your DIing well, so just put in the effort to really watch his attacks, and react/anticipate correctly to make use of the range advantage. Its just like baseball, sure a fastball isn't easy to hit at first cause its moving fast. But after 20 fastballs, if you think about and learn from the first 19, you know how fast to expect it, and can then anticipate the speed and swing at the correct time. Theres a lot of characters, but to be good at SSBB we're going to have to learn the timing on just about all of their moves =) fortunately playing more will help you do this naturally, give it time, but if a single move is beating you, especially a small range quick move like MK's dash, just really put effort into learning the timing.


-True
Ah, you rock, thanks for typing. :)

Sorry for being a noob, but "DIing" refers to dodge rolling, dodging... ? I'm definetly living up to 180-ish, thanks mostly to sidestep doging all over the place, and I can get him up to about half that, but then he always seems to get below be with that up-smash. Is there any technique that is especially useful for escaping (midair) from above a char that is charging their smash to knock you upwards? I know I should prolly just avoid getting up there in the first place... but I don't think Oli's d-air has a larger range than Meta's Up-smash, and because it's 3 consequtive hits ait dodge eems to not be very effective...

Plus he tends to knock me hrizontally of fthe edge when I'm at high %, however your fast ball analogy applies there, too..
 

Rhyme

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 14, 2006
Messages
1,600
Location
A stone's throw from insanity
Sorry for being a noob, but "DIing" refers to dodge rolling, dodging... ?
DI = Directional Influence

It's proven to be in Brawl but I haven't heard if it's similar or exactly the same as it was in Melee. Basically, when you get hit, flick and hold the control stick in the direction that you want to go (perpendicular, or 90 degree angle, to the default trajectory) and hold the c-stick in the direction you want to go (parallel to default trajectory).

So let's say, for example, you're at 130% and just got Usmashed by MK. As the last of the three swings hits you, press and hold the control stick either left or right (which is perpendicular). After the hitlag from the last swing ends (which is right when you're gonna get knocked upwards), press and hold the c-stick down (parallel) while continuing to hold the control stick in that left/right direction. The result should be that your character arcs away from MK rather than shooting straight upwards, and you should live longer. Also note that certain attacks have a preferred direction to DI in. Melee Fox's Usmash, for example, required that you DI towards the way he was facing, while Melee Marth's Fsmash required that most characters DI upwards and towards Marth's back. Take note of which direction seems to work better against MK as I have no idea myself.

Directional Influence can also be used to avoid combos. At low percents, DIing away from your opponent can make it harder or even prevent them from landing consecutive hits, making you more difficult to combo.

Is there any technique that is especially useful for escaping (midair) from above a char that is charging their smash to knock you upwards?
I can see why you might have trouble avoiding an Usmash while you're standing on the ground, but I'm having trouble picturing why you might be having trouble avoiding one while you're falling from above.

Your airdodge might have limited usefulness here. You could try anticipating where your friend will be and just DI to land next to him instead. Olimar's whistle has a few frames of super armor at the beginning, but I'm not so sure that'd work against a multi-hit smash attack (works against a few different multi-hit aerials so I'm not entirely sure). If you're anywhere near an edge then you could try falling out over the edge of the stage and either grabbing or upBing the ledge. As always, it's possible that the Dair has more range than you thought or you just need a bit of practice timing it. A last resort option (which I don't recommend, I mearly suggest) is to upB right before reaching MK's Usmash range--that little hop might be just enough to avoid the charged Usmash. Doing this will definitely provoke a follow-up attack, but it's something.

HTH. It's rather difficult for me since I've only fought MK a half-dozen times or less. =/
 

FloatingLuigi

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jul 3, 2007
Messages
15
Im still new to the brawl scene, but i understand where you're coming from when you say he gets under you and manages a good u-smash.
really an easy thing to do is just airdodge at the right time, since eyou can air dodge multiple times.
I play against a really good ZSS, and he juggles my poor little Olimar straight to the heavens.
using airdodge and predicting when your opponent will make their move is the easiest way to avoid being killed by a u-smash.
I use air dodge all the time to avoid any character who seems like they can run and u-smash me. Being able to read your opponent is the first step to getting better at Brawl. at least IMO.
 

Kabuto Mushi

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 25, 2008
Messages
252
Thanks guys. Just for the record, I can defeat (not without difficulty) a level 9 Knight with Olimar with no items on FD. I dunno if I've gotten better since Melee or Oli just rocks... I'll have to try that DI-thing, which basically I was doing naturally (Mashing the opposite direction I got thrown to). I'll obviously have the chance to practice..

The one thing my friend does and the computers don't do is spam that Dash, running up to me and finishing it with that "no delay" up-air/smash. THAT's what I have to get used to...
 

TrueRedemption

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 26, 2007
Messages
278
If its always a dash attack, or even an upsmash out of dash (yes, you can upsmash straight out of a dash with any character I believe, definitely Olimar and MK for this discussion though) you should really put some effort into learning how to shield grab. Its basically only as complicated as its name, but it should at least temporarily fix your issue. It'll kinda be like training wheels for learning timing so to stop fast attackers/attacks. All you do is start to shield as soon as you expect him to be coming at you, or he is coming at you really, because WDing/DashDancing can't change direction in Brawl like before. Anyway, your opponent will charge and do his dash attack, you'll pull up your shield, he'll hit your shield with the attack, and then when he is in lag from the attack, just press A so you do a grab, and you'll grab him. Obviously from there throw him whatever way you need and play on. Eventually he'll learn that your doing this effectively every time, and he'll start varying his play up, for instance a running grab which will grab you through your shield. You'll have to learn other things to avoid this, for instance FSmash timing/spacing or something, but at least you can force your opponent to adapt for a while, maybe they will struggle to overcome shield grabbing and you'll be dominant for a while. Anyway thats how you'll learn, developing a technique at a time as its needed to overcome an obstacle, just keep with it and do whatever you find works.


-True
 

David Mathis

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 11, 2007
Messages
36
Location
Beaufort, NC
lolool metaknight is easy to beat with olimar. ive been playing against MK for a while now, and a few online matches ive faced him, and my friends all play as him, and i pwn them lol. oli's meteor smash is great. especially with a red pikmin. spiking is really easy with oli. timing is everything though.

but oli isnt one of the best players, he isnt worth anything if he dosent have pikmin out.

but hes greeaattt :)
 

bovineblitzkrieg

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 26, 2006
Messages
360
Location
Boston, MA
I might have to disagree. One-on-one, Olimar can own alot of characters really easily... If you know how to use him...
It's not really that hard, just spam the **** pikmin and time your usmash, dsmash, and grabs...

pull out more pikmin whenever you land a hit...

he's pretty boring to play and play against, IMO. Spamming is lame.
 

Kabuto Mushi

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 25, 2008
Messages
252
It's not really that hard, just spam the **** pikmin and time your usmash, dsmash, and grabs...

pull out more pikmin whenever you land a hit...

he's pretty boring to play and play against, IMO. Spamming is lame.
I agree to an extent, but not if you are a pikmin fan. It's cool to see your favorite haracters win. xD
 

NoobasaurusRex

Smash Rookie
Joined
Sep 25, 2007
Messages
13
Location
California
True nailed it on the head with his last post. If MK keeps using dash attacks, just punish every single one of them with a shield grab until he learns to do something different. And... as True said already spacing with f/d/usmashes will win you matches against a MK who just charges in recklessly. Once you force him out of his comfort zone, just keep applying pressure while he tries to think of something else to do to not get punished.
 

Yakt-NJ

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 12, 2008
Messages
74
Shield grabbing is very important on the ground obviously.

Some characters present situations in which pikmin toss should be used carefully, if at all. A good MK is one of them due to the speed of his attacks. In my experience, MK is best fought with throws, Fairs, Uairs, and dash cancelled Usmashes. Obviously don't be predictable, but this is what seemed to work against a friend of mine who has a dastardly MK. If he starts to put pressure on you while you're re-grouping and plucking new Pikmin, you may be in trouble. Make sure he's far away and you're safely out of harms way before you start to play re-organization games. As always, watch out for his Up-B and his glide attack, they're pretty nasty when they connect!
 

Kabuto Mushi

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 25, 2008
Messages
252
Shield grabbing is very important on the ground obviously.

Some characters present situations in which pikmin toss should be used carefully, if at all. A good MK is one of them due to the speed of his attacks. In my experience, MK is best fought with throws, Fairs, Uairs, and dash cancelled Usmashes. Obviously don't be predictable, but this is what seemed to work against a friend of mine who has a dastardly MK. If he starts to put pressure on you while you're re-grouping and plucking new Pikmin, you may be in trouble. Make sure he's far away and you're safely out of harms way before you start to play re-organization games. As always, watch out for his Up-B and his glide attack, they're pretty nasty when they connect!

Yeah, I discovered Olimar's potential with the shield grab just yesterday... I'll be sure to put it to work against him next time we fight.

I plan to use it to start off the battle. He starts every fight the same way, so... it should be very predictable at what point to use the grab.
 

Engo

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 18, 2007
Messages
865
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the dog,the dog he's at it again!
I have the same problem with my friend's MK. It's really tough at first but later I just start finding patterns in his play and spacing my moves better and I end up handling him pretty good.
 

Diver

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 15, 2008
Messages
11
The problem I'm facing is that the Meta player I face off against, is that as soon as he knocks me into the air I'm dead.

He seems to out prioritize every one of my moves, and I can't DI out of his combos to land. If I airdodge or WAC he'll fly down and smack me up again. Then he gets me to the ledge, which is where he Wall of Pains me and I'm dead, because of my horrible recovery.
 

Psyflame

Smash Cadet
Joined
Apr 5, 2006
Messages
58
Location
Berkeley, CA
Don't throw your pikmin all at once, wait for him to use something like his neutral B (or maybe even his dash attack) and punish with a grab > throw > combo.
 

Starzonedge

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 31, 2005
Messages
605
Location
Richmond Hill, NY.
What I hate is when Meta Knight uses his dash attack, I put up my shield, and he goes behind me, I try to use my Down Smash, but he instantly uses his Down Smash (or was it Forward Smash?) and hits me from behind.
 

nmaster64

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MetaKnight's not to hard a matchup IMO, you just have to play a bit cheap. He'll tear you to shreds but he doesn't do crap damage with all his fancy moves, just spamming Latch for me usually keeps his percentage higher than mine even though he hits me ten times as often. Spam dodgeroll, Latch, and grab. This frustrates most MK players so they'll try to come at you with one of his spinning B moves that are nearly impossible to hit him out of. Once you get used to dodging those, they're just screwed...
 

Dr. Hyde

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 3, 2007
Messages
715
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Sarasota, FL
lol
I'm sorry I played against a meta knight in teams and he would do fine but once we did three, THREE, singles I won. 3 stocks out of three each time.

The key is control of the center of the stage, which in all three matches was battlefield.
I pretty much just let him do his little floating thing in the air after I got my licks in, by licks I mean a simple 60% combo, and then he started being campy.

Fine, **** you too I'm a better camper. I hate camping, in gaming and IRL.
Since I chase metaknights scared it seems they think they are better off backing away and letting me attack them while they defend instead of just attacking while I'm attacking, either way Olimar is victor.

Just to specify the person who played metaknight wasn't bad at all, he knew how to beat me but gimping Olimar means you chance getting a pikmin to the face and that I used my 2n jump.

Never, use your 2nd jump unless you are in combo.

Olimar's getting easy so I'm starting to branch out more, if metaknight plays fast and furious with swipes, swing first!
use purple, yellows and reds for your aerials and never give him room to land, stay below and he will ****.

And if you ever get caught above, like I have spend a jump to get room and Dair with a heavy pikmin, you will almost always get the spike, don't bother following up with an attack afterwards, unless they miss a tech, main goal is getting to the ground and control the match.
 
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