MetaKnight: A deadend character?

[SleuthMechanism]

ver 1.04 is out and metaknight is now pretty great so this thread is now kind of obsolete.

 

[ndayday]

A stronger nair and bair make him great (these are the most significant changes)?

 

[SleuthMechanism]

his damage output on all his normals is significantly buffed and bair and dimensional cape kill at significantly higher percents. basically he can actually hurt people now.

 

[TKD]

Stronger nair and bair make his edgeguarding a lot deadlier. The drawings still need to be fixed though omg

 

[Float SSB]

He is not that bad

This match is FANTASTIC

 

[daedgaem]

They should remove meta knights jab and replace it with his forward tilt. It's nothing but a self stunlock for 10 seconds.

 

[MagiusNecros]

They should remove meta knights jab and replace it with his forward tilt. It's nothing but a self stunlock for 10 seconds.

But if a dummy rolls too much the jab is a nice little trap while they yell obscenities.

 

[daedgaem]

They'll roll right through you and give you a huge punish.

Meta Knights jab has no priority or range, coupled with a massive duration making it more risky to use than a forward smash. If they removed it entirely, I would actually be glad, which is ironic.

 

[MagiusNecros]

They'll roll right through you and give you a huge punish.

Meta Knights jab has no priority or range, coupled with a massive duration making it more risky to use than a forward smash. If they removed it entirely, I would actually be glad, which is ironic.

I think MK's main problem is his abysmal range on basically about every attack he has. Which in the end you are relying on making your opponent make that first move or accurately predicting what they will do. Meta Knight plays the Bait and Punish game but sadly other characters play the same game, and perform better at it. With less work and effort too. And it's really sad to see.

 

[daedgaem]

Well, we are playing super lag rolls 4, so expect the gameplay to be campy.
Honestly, I don't find the range to be the main issue, more like how he has 10 seconds lag time after every areal and every special move, which makes Meta Knight one of, if not the easiest character to punish in the entire game.

I also severely dislike how his Downsmash has like what? 1 frame where it deals damage, making it effectively worthless against rolls. They will roll right through it 99% of the time, setting you up for a punish, even if you read them perfectly, which is outright ridiculous.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Yeah all the lag for our short master swordsman hurts him quite a bit. I almost want Galacta Knight as a MK clone that restores MK to his old glory. Of being completely stupid or at least a counter to Diddy Kong since he seems all the rage right now. I'm just still not used to not being able to cancel Shuttle Loop out of Jab and not having as much range as I used to. You pretty much have to be in their face.

 

[DiggersBoy]

I got a solution:

If you don't like him, don't play him. I love GDorf in Melee and Project M. I can't play him in Brawl. So, rather than ******** about how much I hate him on the subforum with devout followers of the Dorf, I just shut up and find a new main.

Meta Knight was broken in Brawl. Of course he's gonna have nerfs in Smash 4. However, don't ***** about the nerfs. Just find someone else who fits your playstyle, like how Meta Knight has filled the hole that Smash 4 Ganondorf has left behind quite nicely.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Personally I play Meta Knight because he is hard to use and is a challenge and ends up being a lot of fun against my friends since he looks so cool doing what he does. And is super satisfying when you land a Shuttle Loop kill. Or Offstage harassment. Which flusters just about everyone.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Metaknight has the best dash grab in the game; in terms of speed, you can dash grab someone instantly from mid range.

 

[daedgaem]

I got a solution:

If you don't like him, don't play him. I love GDorf in Melee and Project M. I can't play him in Brawl. So, rather than *****ing about how much I hate him on the subforum with devout followers of the Dorf, I just shut up and find a new main.

Meta Knight was broken in Brawl. Of course he's gonna have nerfs in Smash 4. However, don't ***** about the nerfs. Just find someone else who fits your playstyle, like how Meta Knight has filled the hole that Smash 4 Ganondorf has left behind quite nicely.

That's some nice problem solving skills you got there. You will get far.

Please cease and desist.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Woah, cool your jets, man. No need to flame people just because you don't agree with their ideas.

 

[MagiusNecros]

That's some nice problem solving skills you got there. You will get far.

Please cease and desist.

Personally when someone gives advice that really isn't helpful at all I tend to just ignore them. Has worked a whole ton.

 

[ChivalRuse]

We don't gain anything from bashing each other. Instead, we could try respectfully suggesting some steps to take to grow in skill for those who are interested in doing so.

 

[Narth]

I think Meta Knight's biggest problem is how he racks up damage. I mean, whenever I play as Meta Knight, I feel like I'm getting the other player into decent combos, but when I look at their percentage, I realise I haven't done as much damage as I had expected. If his attacks (like Fair, Uair and side attack) got a little more damage, he could be a more respected character.

Yes, there is the issue of range also, which could definitely improve him overall.

His KO power is unfortunately a little inconsistent. His side smash has a lot of KO potential, even uncharged, yet other moves that maybe should have more, like the down or up smash attacks, don't.

A little buffs here and there would make MK a lot more viable, without making him the ungodly (or godly, depending how you see it) mess he was in Brawl. (but damn, he was a lot more fun to use!)

 

[MagiusNecros]

I think either he keeps the crap range but buff the damage or increase his range and keep the crap damage. If you have no range your attacks have to be strong methinks.

 

[Narth]

I think either he keeps the crap range but buff the damage or increase his range and keep the crap damage. If you have no range your attacks have to be strong methinks.

I'd personally prefer the attack buff, I've gotten used to his range. But, it's still a fair point that his range needs buffing, too.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Can somebody explain to me the up-b sweetspot (the part that KOs)? Does this change depending on if you're grounded or airborne? Thankss.

 

[Steam]

this is the most beautiful thing I've ever seen. Brings a tear to my eye. :,)

 

[MagiusNecros]

MK just needs to be able to hit people reliably. I mean we can Dash attack and set up all we want and go into Down Throw Combos but as MK we want to keep our opponents guessing and it's really taxing to do so with Bowser Klaw range on our attacks.

 

[Metaa]

im surprised that this thread exists lol. metaknight is literally a bit of recognition away from being a top tier character. he is insanely fast with an extremely good ground and air game with lots of attacks that rack up damage really fast. he isn't someone who you can just blindly spam abilities with which is why most people try to avoid him imo. however, there is a reason why whenever he shows up in tourneys he can crush every single top tier character that exists. any buff would utterly break him and make him in a higher tier than diddy is due to how little weaknesses he actually has and i can guarantee this 100%. give him too much range and NOTHING will be able to stop his combos. give him more damage (as if he doesnt already kill from 70-80% with nair/bair/usmash and fsmash) and then he will spike you at 50%.

just give him an actual chance and don't write him off because you can't just mindlessly spam with him. he is a character that will absolutely crush you for the slightest error.

 

[MagiusNecros]

He just needs less lag on his aerials.

 

[ぱみゅ]

im surprised that this thread exists lol. metaknight is literally a bit of recognition away from being a top tier character. he is insanely fast with an extremely good ground and air game with lots of attacks that rack up damage really fast. he isn't someone who you can just blindly spam abilities with which is why most people try to avoid him imo. however, there is a reason why whenever he shows up in tourneys he can crush every single top tier character that exists. any buff would utterly break him and make him in a higher tier than diddy is due to how little weaknesses he actually has and i can guarantee this 100%. give him too much range and NOTHING will be able to stop his combos. give him more damage (as if he doesnt already kill from 70-80% with nair/bair/usmash and fsmash) and then he will spike you at 50%.

just give him an actual chance and don't write him off because you can't just mindlessly spam with him. he is a character that will absolutely crush you for the slightest error.

What? No.
Meta Knight is (in the most competitive-demanding sense) a mediocre character, his damage output is low (even with a couple strings), range overall is poor (except for Dash Attack/Dash Grab/Shuttle Loop) and can't reliably kill (Puh-lease, Fsmash will never actually hit a thinking, non-lagging opponent, the move has tons of startup; the other option is gimping, which isn't really reliable, and mostly situational).

He would not be broken with only damage or only range buffs, even in Brawl he was barely better than everyone else, and now he doesn't glide, has no Invincible Shuttle Loop, Nado lost most of its properties and he can't plank.

 

[Narth]

What? No.
Meta Knight is (in the most competitive-demanding sense) a mediocre character, his damage output is low (even with a couple strings), range overall is poor (except for Dash Attack/Dash Grab/Shuttle Loop) and can't reliably kill (Puh-lease, Fsmash will never actually hit a thinking, non-lagging opponent, the move has tons of startup; the other option is gimping, which isn't really reliable, and mostly situational).

He would not be broken with only damage or only range buffs, even in Brawl he was barely better than everyone else, and now he doesn't glide, has no Invincible Shuttle Loop, Nado lost most of its properties and he can't plank.

I agree with everything until you mentioned that he wasn't that much better than everyone in Brawl. He's ****ing mental in Brawl. He's fun though haha

 

[ChivalRuse]

He just needs less lag on his aerials.

Not really. Uair auto cancels with ease and depending on how when you activate them, his other aerials can all auto cancel as well; and he has multiple jumps. Just requires you to experiment with them until you have a better grasp of when you can cancel each aerial.

 

[daedgaem]

He just needs less lag on his aerials.

Seconded.
A huge part of having at least one areal that doesn't carry huge landing lag is to be able to have more approaching opportunities than just dashing. Not even asking for all of his areals to have less landing lag, just one that isn't his uair with abysmal range unable to hit grounded opponents. Personally, I believe his neurtal air is the one that at least should have a short landing lag, because of the range and how it is easily outprioritized.

Not really. Uair auto cancels with ease and depending on how when you activate them, his other aerials can all auto cancel as well; and he has multiple jumps. Just requires you to experiment with them until you have a better grasp of when you can cancel each aerial.

Finishing the entire animation before landing /=/ auto cancel. m8 pls

 

[eradication0]

good thing casual player dont pick him and destroy me...

 

[ChivalRuse]

Finishing the entire animation before landing /=/ auto cancel. m8 pls

It's equivalent in terms of application (at least in the context that I was using it). I wasn't implying that you could fast fall the aerial or anything. I was basically just saying that you can work around the laggier aerials to still use them reasonably effectively.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Accidental double post.

 

[daedgaem]

It's equivalent in terms of application (at least in the context that I was using it). I wasn't implying that you could fast fall the aerial or anything. I was basically just saying that you can work around the laggier aerials to still use them reasonably effectively.

Ah, my bad in failing to decipher your post then.

Either way, while it is indeed true that he carries huge inherent properties in finishing his moves before landing. If I am not entirely mistaken, you cannot do this with the height a shorthop creates. Neither with a jump in the air, because more often than not, you get too much height setting you up for a punish.

Just watch vods and play for yourself. Approaching with an areal move just doesn't work at all with meta knight, because of the landing on all (worthwhile) areals.

 

[ChivalRuse]

His aerials are better suited for catching an opponent who is airborne with their disjointedness or for edgeguarding. On the ground his tilts, jabs, and grab are what you're going to be utilizing for the most part. His special moves are all pretty laggy and risky, compared with the Brawl incarnation.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Only aerial I ever have an issue with in regards to lag is pretty much Bair. Takes a bit before you are back in control again for another attack. Uair and Dair are fine.

As far as specials they seem more to either escape or land a good punish. And if you botch a Drill Rush and it gets shielded just go down and bounce off the ground.

Fsmash hitbox is so misleading with it's hitbox and the fact it's so telegraphed is basically to never use it.

I've been doing better with MK. Not Ito level but good enough I get compliments for playing with style through the Enter Name system. Feels good when you can respect yourself as Meta Knight.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Now that he's regarded as "not good" I finally have a reason to play him lol.

 

[Katakiri]

What? No.
Meta Knight is (in the most competitive-demanding sense) a mediocre character, his damage output is low (even with a couple strings), range overall is poor (except for Dash Attack/Dash Grab/Shuttle Loop) and can't reliably kill (Puh-lease, Fsmash will never actually hit a thinking, non-lagging opponent, the move has tons of startup; the other option is gimping, which isn't really reliable, and mostly situational).

He would not be broken with only damage or only range buffs, even in Brawl he was barely better than everyone else, and now he doesn't glide, has no Invincible Shuttle Loop, Nado lost most of its properties and he can't plank.

You've gotta be joking. The only valid point you've made was his damage output is low.

Just a heads-up, a lot of this stuff isn't directly aimed at you, Kyokoro. The whole board seems to lack an understanding of MK in this game that genuinely baffles me when I read it.

His range is fine, it's shorter than some but about on-par with what are currently considered the best characters in the game and it's all disjointed due to being a sword so when we win a trade, we're totally safe. (This really comes into play for Up-Tilt and Up-Smash as they beat just about any characters aerials.) To add to that, MK has some of the best frame data in the game for both ground and air. Unless you're attempting to short-hop B-Air for a KO or N-Air OoS, MK's landing lag should be a non-issue. (Short-hop F-Air is useless, don't even bother.) Even Nado shouldn't get you punished too often because A: You should always be jumping slightly before you nado due to it having faster start-up in the air and the option to rise high enough to cancel landing lag and B: If you just nado on someone's shield it will shield-poke most characters before the nado ends due its insane shield-pressure. And if you do shield poke, I like to Dimensional Cape more liberally because Cape Slash will break their shield if it's that low but enough of that tangent.

Meta Knight has one of the best KO toolkits in this game: Shuttle Loop OoS, B-Air, F-Smash, Back-half of D-Smash, Up-Smash, Dimensional Cape, combos from throws/D-Tilt that KO, and just straight-up dominating the off-stage game. Very few characters wouldn't trade in their KO moves for MK's KO options. Also Forward Smash is damn near lagless and its startup lag isn't enough to make MK miss out of punishing whiffed moves and rolls. I often find myself spamming it at mid-range to get a reaction out of my opponent due to the lack of ending lag making the move stupidly safe yet threatening enough to bait a reaction.

Gimping is more match-up dependent than anything but it's certainly reliable overall if I need to; often I don't need to because of all the other aforementioned KO options MK has. You do need to get a little creative to gimp in this game sometimes tho but I've more than adjusted to that. MK is just as vicious off-stage as always so long as you don't make your gimping attempt extremely obvious by charging towards them off-stage like an idiot. (That video is exactly what you look like.) If you jump off-stage, you've limited your own options just as much you've limited theirs by launching them. Don't chase. Intercept. It's far safer to run off the ledge real quick and N-Air/B-Air as they recover than it is to go deep off-stage fishing for a F-Air before they've even used their mid-air jump.

And backing up to the damage, his combos net him a lot of damage and can be guaranteed to upwards of 70~%. At my last tourney, I was showing-off that MK is like Lay's potato chips: "You don't get hit just once." MK's attacks just chain into each other and have so much hitstun that they're basically hit-confirms, if you have an eye for it, you can look at your opponent's DI while you're chasing them and position yourself to pick-up the combo. And then Nado is still really good as long as you're using it intelligently as, again, it punishes anything.

I struggle to think of a downside to MK that's not just his light weight.
He has speed, recovery, disjointed attacks, solid approach options, legitimate combos (not just low % strings), viable KO options, 6 jumps for evasion (he never has to approach if winning because no projectile beats 6 jumps), Nado that heavily punishes defensive options (shielding, rolling, and weak projectiles), and teleportation to just flat-up ignore ledge-guarding and projectile walls.
Explain to me how that equation makes a "mediocre character." I think the problem is mediocre players or players with no frame of reference for high-level MK play giving the character a bad reputation spreading, largely, misinformation ('worst range in the game, MK wields a toothpick, more lag than Ganondorf, etc.') and the character himself being more demanding than Brawl's pick-up-and-play MK. No one on this board has ever created a remotely convincing argument as to why MK is bad and frankly I don't think it can be done.

I feel like I'm the only one on this board that sees MK as a top character and has any legitimate frame of reference at high-level play as to why but that might be because I'm the only MK making money with him on a weekly basis.

 

[DiggersBoy]

I don't see him as a mediocre character; he's more of the Bottom of the A tier. To me, he feels like Melee Samus: Really strong, yet not a Fox. Maybe it's just because I don't play him and make da moniez, but I still don't feel like he's a Diddily or a Rosetta & Chico. He's really good though, I keep telling people that.

 

[ChivalRuse]

The rumors of Metaknight's death have been greatly exaggerated.