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MetaKnight: A deadend character?

SleuthMechanism

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A legitimate question, is metaknight good at anything anymore? His range is ****, his damage is so bad what he does in fiuve hits is what most characters can do in 2, he has little to no kill power, has little priority, and is straight up KO'd at some of the lowest percents in the game. I was interested in subbing him this time around but to be honest metaknight just seems to have nothing decent going for him at all. So if i'm wrong i'd like to be given informative responces as to what he has going for him that doesn't make him complete rubbish as a character since i'm really struggling to find anything.
 

ぱみゅ

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He's not *that* bad. Bair is a good spacing tool, and his running options are decent, he also juggles opponents very well. He's basically a character that punishes mistakes well, and it might get difficult to reset to neutral against him.

He doesn't play like in Brawl at all, he's now more reliant to bait and punish rather than zoning and pressuring the whole time.
 

TKD

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MK's good. I can send you some replays if you teach me how to send them (I really only started playing a portable for this game so I don't know how to use it).

I'm thinking of maining him. Can't be sure what to main until the WiiU game comes out, though.

My biggest complaint isn't even related to competitive play. His animations don't match the hitboxes. LOL
 
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Mettie7

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Kyokoro's right, he's a bait and punish character now. It's gonna take some getting used to if you used him in Brawl a lot. I don't PM but it might be a similar transition.

I also agree with TKD, I wish his animations matched his hitboxes
 

DiggersBoy

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He aint bad. In fact, he's one of the only characters in this game that I feel confident in playing (One example of why I can only play him is that I hate self-spike dairs, crossing out essentially half the cast). I feel like he can combo well, he has an okay approach game (Although I feel like that can still be improved upon), and he actually has a lot of kill moves (Neutral, Side, Up and Down B can all kill at ragemode-ish percents depending on where you are and how you space the move). Plus, I like the new Up-B. I hated his old Up-B.

This is how I play Meta Knight. I'm not the best, but I feel like this works well.

Mainly what you do with Meta Knight is do what Mettie said. Play him as a bait-and-punish character. I prefer to start off with a dash, cancel that into shield, and bait out a dash attack or an aerial. After that, grab them.

As soon as you have that grab, change your mindset. Your mindset is not to kill them, nor is it to do a small hit and run away. No, your goal as soon as you land that grab is to deal as much damage as you possibly can before it becomes unfavorable to you. At low percents, it could be unfavorable as soon as you land that d-throw to fair. Sometimes, you can land the dash to f-throw to Tornado before it becomes unfavorable. You need to gauge the situation, but don't take too long, or you'll miss the opportunity to go on the full offensive.

After that, back out. Smash 4 is a pretty defensive ground-based game, so you just need to wait for another shot.

When the dude's around the 120%-ish zone, start hittin' those B-moves. However, don't just throw them out again and again: stale move stacks quickly and you become predictable. Combo it into a couple of throws (I remember someone on here said Dash to f-throw to up-B works really well), or just randomly throw it out when they least expect it.

Works pretty well, in my opinion. He's actually not that bad of a character, and he could be really good if we play him right (Kinda like Bizzarro Flame and his Ganondorf in Melee. Gdorf is midtier, but Bizzarro plays him like a boss). It just takes a lot of determination and the will to win. Plus changes to his visual animations. However, he will never be as good as he was in Brawl. But that Up-B is amazing.
 

TKD

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This is how I play him (I use Fox/DDD/MK)

Remember the last days of Brawl? Top players would use MK's dash attack as their main approach option. Well, it's unchanged, and it opens up the game as much as dthrow does. To dash attack quickly without a c-stick, flick the circle pad so you've let go by the time you press the attack button. To manage spacing, walk or short hop around. Dashing/walking and powershielding helps deal with most projectiles.

Upb is an out of shield move, a juggling tool, and a KO move. One of the game's best moves. You can surprise with it, use it high up offstage and drift back to the ledge, wait out an airdodge or aerial and punish, or combo it out of dthrow/dashatk/uair. Remember you have slight horizontal control over each slash so you can land the second hit. It'll be very easy with a good controller and no lag in the WiiU.

Downb, combined with MK's 5 airjumps, lets you regain ground or get back from the ledge easily since it becomes invincible and invisible and it covers a lot of distance.

Nado is useful but very risky. It counters ledgeclimb, ledgejump, and hits people out of anything that involves whiffing attacks, not attacking and not blocking. Plus it can deal 20% even on small characters.

That's mostly it. My combo staples from dthrow are dash attack, dash upair, dash full hop fair or upb with or without dash. From dash attack, they're uptilt, uair or upb. From uptilt, they're utilt, uair or upb. From uair, they're uair or upb. If you have good enough execution to accurately follow the opponent's DI, you can deal around 50% from any series of follow-ups that lead to uair, and a series of airjump uairs into upb, but my experience (maybe because most of it's online) has proved that the safest thing is to ensure a hit by finishing the combo with upb as early as possible. Any of these combo options may lead to walking around in order to counter a response.

Luma has let me gimp Rosalina upwards (hilarious but true) by hitting me out of upb, so I airjump after Rosalina and upb her again offscreen for the KO. Megaman is probably susceptible to the same thing if you get a chance to spring off his Rush Coil. If an opponent, in a juggle attempt, jumps after you to high altitude and tries to land an aerial, you can kill them with airdodge into upb (or at least damage them).

I don't have an edgeguarding method yet; too many options (both MK's and his opponent's) to consider. I kind of wing it and think that eventually we'll gimp characters like Falcon, Lucina, Lil Mac etc. at least once per game (specially Mac, of course; they designed him to get gimped).

Remember to use dtilt (this one's quite good outside of shieldgrab range and stops dashgrab approaches well), utilt, and dsmash, and kill with usmash/fsmash (or whatever; just remember you have a lot of decent moves and you should use them). Usmash is one of the easiest kill moves to land so notice when they reach a % where it can kill. An observation of mine is that opponents usually become very easy to hit every time upb can kill them, because it's a very intimidating move that can kill very early (if you're in rage mode, they'll probably be terrified every time you put them in the air).

I think MK's main weakness are characters with KO power, as he has a great recovery but is very light. A secondary weakness would be projectiles (although I don't think unintimidating projectiles like Pit's, Sheik's and Falco's should cause too much trouble). Our worst match-up may be... Fox, I guess (at least that's what I can tell from my experience, which isn't too much to be honest). He combos and has KO power, has a very long range projectile, and his low edgeguarding ability doesn't really matter since MK's very strong against edgeguarding anyway.

I feel that our main edge would be against light characters that will die to upb at any moment, and characters with mediocre or worse recovery (that can -really- die at any moment).
 
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Judo777

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My biggest complaint isn't even related to competitive play. His animations don't match the hitboxes. LOL
TKD is my hero. I have literally been saying the exact same thing. Like its the most inexcusable part of the game on the developers. Why are they not even close? lol
 

Karasu

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I have the feeling the not matching hitbox is kind of a glitch or mistake because he was announced as a "light long-ranged fighter without projectiles". He just seems to have low priority because your opponent hits you before you could reach them
It's not just Meta Knight, even some grabs (Link and Greninja for example) don't have the same hitbox as the animation shows.

Hands down, Meta Knight is just not a good character. Yes, with alot of practice and skill you can do well with him but that is exactly the point. "The less skill you need to play with a character effectively the better he is." This is true for most competitive games I played but I hope this doesn't include Meta Knight.
I hope we will discover something about him that will make him a good character.
 

Judo777

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I have the feeling the not matching hitbox is kind of a glitch or mistake because he was announced as a "light long-ranged fighter without projectiles". He just seems to have low priority because your opponent hits you before you could reach them
It's not just Meta Knight, even some grabs (Link and Greninja for example) don't have the same hitbox as the animation shows.

Hands down, Meta Knight is just not a good character. Yes, with alot of practice and skill you can do well with him but that is exactly the point. "The less skill you need to play with a character effectively the better he is." This is true for most competitive games I played but I hope this doesn't include Meta Knight.
I hope we will discover something about him that will make him a good character.
I actually disagree with that definition a little bit. If a character if there are 2 characters and character A is super easy to use and win with and requires almost no effort, while character b requires ALOT of effort, but with said effort can beat everyone character a can and more (and maybe even character a) then b is a better character than a as long as bs effort is practical to maintain (in my example it is).

You could almost equate it in Brawl with medium level IC's play compared to Snake. At Medium level play, Snake is a much easier character to play then IC's (you basically win simply by using your tilts intelligently) where as IC's have to learn complex chain grabs. But IC's are in fact the better character (at least in the current meta with the stages selected) they just require the player to be on point for longer (which is possible).
 

Mr.Random

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MK is still really good. I have reasons.
1. Neutral game is still great. He can still space despite the shorter range with pivots, he has an amazing dash attack that is hard to punish, and a good dash grab for people who shield a lot (if they spot dodge pivot f-tilts beats it).
2. Speed of everything is still good. His dash is great, and he has amazing rolls that are hard to punish. Despite the added lag to some moves he is still able to space and use them effectively (they just aren't spammable).
3. Punish game is still one of the best in the game. Most of his combos do 30+ damage and are very reliable. D smash punishes rolls still. F smash and tornado punishes air dodge and rolls and can either kill or do a ton of damage (tornado does 22%). He can combo into his kill moves at kill percents. Down throw leads to up b on most characters or can frame trap most characters with up air (which leads to up b). Fsmash and down b punish anything laggy and can kill.
4. One of the few characters that can gimp most recoveries. Fair and b-air have more knock back and send people pretty far. D-air covers people with bad horizontal recovery. He can go super deep with his amazing horizontal and vertical recovery (I've gimped a Villager at 50% going deep with D-air s and F-airs).
The issues I can think of is that he can be vulnerable to camping and he dies pretty early (around 90-110%). He can have trouble killing heavier characters as well but I still consider him a great character.
 

Karasu

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I actually disagree with that definition a little bit. If a character if there are 2 characters and character A is super easy to use and win with and requires almost no effort, while character b requires ALOT of effort, but with said effort can beat everyone character a can and more (and maybe even character a) then b is a better character than a as long as bs effort is practical to maintain (in my example it is).

You could almost equate it in Brawl with medium level IC's play compared to Snake. At Medium level play, Snake is a much easier character to play then IC's (you basically win simply by using your tilts intelligently) where as IC's have to learn complex chain grabs. But IC's are in fact the better character (at least in the current meta with the stages selected) they just require the player to be on point for longer (which is possible).
That's why I said I hope this doesn't include this game. This is my first time playing Super Smash competitively (I only found out recently that Meta Knight was broken in Brawl).
Despite that I can see how you are supposed to use Meta Knight (in my opinion): Gimping and punishing careless playstyles. While I don't think this is bad at all Meta Knight lacks range to do this constantly (the key word here is "practical to maintain"). I think the video above me is a good example of this.
He played him exactly how I think he works best but his lacking range means that nearly every other Aerial can hit you before you are able to land one. It took way too long to gimp this Mario if you consider he has a bad recovery and should be easier to gimp.

I really don't complain about his damage (high damage + good at gimping seems a bit op for me) just his non-existing range. Maybe I didn't play and train enough but in the long round this could hurt him too much.
 

Conda

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At 3:10, check out this cool metaknight trick:

http://youtu.be/j0_ImjLbR3g?t=3m10s

Japan has been advancing these so-called 'dead end' characters that the US has been ignoring. Toon Link is looking alright too. Keep in mind they play without customs generally.
 

ndayday

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Yeah that's pretty good, all it takes is a pummel when you both get at the edge.

as for customs, I am almost thinking no customs is just fine. The fast drill maybe probably, but everything else is just...mmm.
 

DiggersBoy

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At 3:10, check out this cool metaknight trick:

http://youtu.be/j0_ImjLbR3g?t=3m10s

Japan has been advancing these so-called 'dead end' characters that the US has been ignoring. Toon Link is looking alright too. Keep in mind they play without customs generally.
Wait what even just happened how did he get Palutena off

Was that like, a dash into grab, pummel once, release to get her off edge?
 

Conda

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Wait what even just happened how did he get Palutena off

Was that like, a dash into grab, pummel once, release to get her off edge?
Not sure. Maybe there's movement in the throw animation that led to it?
 

HammerHappy

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His hitboxs need to be patched to either match the animations or have the animations match the current hitbox. Though honestly it's such an oversight I think it might have been a bug/mistake that they're going to fix eventually.

Metaknight is fine. A huge part of the game is going to be forcing people of ledges and attacking them. Basically as soon as you get someone off stage you can chase them off for a gimp/damage and if they recover to the ledge you force them off and then get a cheeky back air.

If you decide to remain on stage they're probably going to go for the ledge anyway, force them off and BA or one or two UAs.

I especially like his down B as a kill move. Shield a high lag attack and then punish. Or hit fighters like Fox and Greninja who I find often run under you for a quick upsmash. Any counter kid (the amount I meet in 4Glory) that doesn't know how to do anything else is also going to get their **** pushed in.
 

Lavani

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Wait what even just happened how did he get Palutena off

Was that like, a dash into grab, pummel once, release to get her off edge?
Pummeling lets you slide offstage during a grab, forcing a grab break and putting both characters offstage.

As for the thread topic, I'll just be the millionth person to say it'd be great if his hitboxes matched his animations.
 

TKD

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Everyone's talking so much about having to play opportunistic as MK. In my opinion, the most notable thing about playing him well is just abusing the hell out of shuttle loop. Everyone's terrified of it. If they're not because they've never played a good MK, they will be by the end of the first game; specially if they play light characters like Rosalina who start fearing for their lives from like 70%.
 

ぱみゅ

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I guess I'm just too used to Brawl MK and I'm still unfamiliar with this new Shuttle Loop to use it properly.
 

Karasu

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I guess I'm just too used to Brawl MK and I'm still unfamiliar with this new Shuttle Loop to use it properly.
I didn't play much Brawl (just story and few fun matches) so I don't know how he felt back then but it is still noticable that he is not like the other characters in this game. He just plays completely different (the recovery as primary kill-move is not very common).
Despite his range he is not bad just very different.
 

Oracle_Summon

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I am not sure if this has been posted already, but some tech for Meta Knight has already been found:

Credit to My Smash Corner.

 
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ItoI6

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the problem with that is that it doesnt work

every time i tried it in a match my opponent used an aerial after i had landed the 2nd hit of fair and bounced them up, before they hit the ground again they were able to just hit me and get a free punish

they can act immediately after the ground bounce
 
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Mettie7

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The thing is tho it does work, you just have to be faster with the dtilt, and it only works between a certain percent range
 

Ryu Myuutsu

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the problem with that is that it doesnt work

every time i tried it in a match my opponent used an aerial after i had landed the 2nd hit of fair and bounced them up, before they hit the ground again they were able to just hit me and get a free punish

they can act immediately after the ground bounce
It actually works though. You need to fast fall the Fair in order to avoid striking with the last hit of the move, then you have to act fast and DTilt them.

Back at the topic at hand, check this out:


This makes me want to cry. By the way, the update 1.0.4 will roll soon and it supposedly adjusts certain characters, hope they do something about this and fix Meta Knight's range.
 

ItoI6

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you dont understand what i mean and it has nothing to do with me inputting an action too slowly

if you hit someone with the 2nd hit of fair it doesnt send them into the ground, it bounces them off the ground a very small distance and then they fall onto the ground once more. They arent in any kind of stun when they get bounced up before they fall to the ground, so they can just hit you before the landing lag from mks fair even wears off. Keep in mind I'm not talking about after they are slammed into the ground, I'm saying they can hit you before mk is even able to move.


also while were talking about **** of mks that doesnt work, megaman can upb out of first hit of shuttle loop but it takes very precise timing, and it doesnt work if the 1st hit is from the base of the attack.
 
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Katakiri

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I think I'm the only person that feels like MK's nerfs were pretty tame. It's easy to point at images like Ryu Myuutsu's and dismiss the character as a shell of his former self but notice how in those images, MK's sword never touches them, only the sword trails. MK's not wielding a toothpick, he's just not wielding the Manado this time. His range is Galaxia now and nothing more, as it should have been in the first place tbh.

That said, the sword trails look like *gasp* a lazy port from Brawl?! In Smash 4? Never! It's disgustingly lazy and deceptive but I learned to ignore them after a while. Just focus on the sword unless it's D-Air. D-Air's the one standard move MK has that Galaxia doesn't mean **** for.

Aside from losing his disjointed hitboxes, MK's ground game honestly got buffed (which is good because they nerfed the hell out of his air game). Dash Attack and Dash Grab are still as good as they ever were with both now comboing into aerials even at low-high percents. Even Down-Smash seems almost as fast as it used to be and the C-Stick is only going to help MK on Wii U. Also D-Tilt is now a hit-confirm at high percents which can combo into KO moves like Up-B.

And while his on-stage air game got neutered by 20+ frames of landing lag for each move, his off-stage air game is still classic Meta Knight. You recover below the ledge, you're not coming back without a lot of percent damage or a stock loss.

Nado seems like a matter of just knowing what moves you can and can't Nado which is something I might have to research myself but Nado is still good for catching rolls and landing opponents.

Cape got crazy good. With all the nerfs MK got, buffing Cape this much seems like a weird choice but I love it regardless. It's basically the best counter in the game and is STUPIDLY disjointed for whatever reason. Sakurai took Meta Knight's kneecaps and he borrowed Snake's for this move, like it hits behind him even. You catch an opponent doing anything with lag, you can cape and I love it.
Meta Knight's new cape is like:
Every breath you take,
Every move you make,
I'll be there,
Behind you.

Gordo Toss? That's a cape. Luma Shot? Oh you know that's a cape. Metal Blade? More like Meta blade. Satisfying.

Definitely not a bad character and not nearly as nerfed as some people think, he just actually has downsides now being low damage and average range. Even the low damage can be mitigated by grab pummeling once or twice per throw.

The best advice I can give right now is to do the almost the opposite as I've seen some people on this forum say: Play MK like Brawl MK minus on-stage F-Air. My biggest obstacle as MK so far has been fearing my own moves and mostly because of word-of-mouth and topics like this thread for instance. It was to the point where always hovered at mid-range avoiding damage but too worried about losing my lead to net anymore damage outside of punishes. Clamor about the nerfs all you want but, at the core, this character is still Meta Knight. His speed and attack speed didn't go anywhere, his grab game only got better, and his aerials GAINED knockback for his already great off-stage game. If you can make it over the first hurdle of "muh range" he's a real solid character. Not as great as some others but still a nasty threat to them regardless.

So anyone else ready to stop moping about nerfs, get this Halberd off the ground, and advance the Meta metagame?
 
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Claxus

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I think I'm the only person that feels like MK's nerfs were pretty tame. It's easy to point at images like Ryu Myuutsu's and dismiss the character as a shell of his former self but notice how in those images, MK's sword never touches them, only the sword trails. MK's not wielding a toothpick, he's just not wielding the Manado this time. His range is Galaxia now and nothing more, as it should have been in the first place tbh.

That said, the sword trails look like *gasp* a lazy port from Brawl?! In Smash 4? Never! It's disgustingly lazy and deceptive but I learned to ignore them after a while. Just focus on the sword unless it's D-Air. D-Air's the one standard move MK has that Galaxia doesn't mean **** for.

Aside from losing his disjointed hitboxes, MK's ground game honestly got buffed (which is good because they nerfed the hell out of his air game). Dash Attack and Dash Grab are still as good as they ever were with both now comboing into aerials even at low-high percents. Even Down-Smash seems almost as fast as it used to be and the C-Stick is only going to help MK on Wii U. Also D-Tilt is now a hit-confirm at high percents which can combo into KO moves like Up-B.

And while his on-stage air game got neutered by 20+ frames of landing lag for each move, his off-stage air game is still classic Meta Knight. You recover below the ledge, you're not coming back without a lot of percent damage or a stock loss.

Nado seems like a matter of just knowing what moves you can and can't Nado which is something I might have to research myself but Nado is still good for catching rolls and landing opponents.

Cape got crazy good. With all the nerfs MK got, buffing Cape this much seems like a weird choice but I love it regardless. It's basically the best counter in the game and is STUPIDLY disjointed for whatever reason. Sakurai took Meta Knight's kneecaps and he borrowed Snake's for this move, like it hits behind him even. You catch an opponent doing anything with lag, you can cape and I love it.
Meta Knight's new cape is like:
Every breath you take,
Every move you make,
I'll be there,
Behind you.

Gordo Toss? That's a cape. Luma Shot? Oh you know that's a cape. Metal Blade? More like Meta blade. Satisfying.

Definitely not a bad character and not nearly as nerfed as some people think, he just actually has downsides now being low damage and average range. Even the low damage can be mitigated by grab pummeling once or twice per throw.

The best advice I can give right now is to do the almost the opposite as I've seen some people on this forum say: Play MK like Brawl MK minus on-stage F-Air. My biggest obstacle as MK so far has been fearing my own moves and mostly because of word-of-mouth and topics like this thread for instance. It was to the point where always hovered at mid-range avoiding damage but too worried about losing my lead to net anymore damage outside of punishes. Clamor about the nerfs all you want but, at the core, this character is still Meta Knight. His speed and attack speed didn't go anywhere, his grab game only got better, and his aerials GAINED knockback for his already great off-stage game. It you can make it over the first hurdle of "muh range" he's a real solid character. Not as great as some others but still a nasty threat to them regardless.

So anyone else ready to stop moping about nerfs, get this Halberd off the ground, and advance the Meta metagame?
He was severely nerfed though, we're talking about a character who had a ban fiasco who now is seen near-bottom. He lost a lot of things besides range, like his priority is pretty bad now and N-air being weaker.

That said, I agree he's underrated and written off too easily now, just not broken. He's still blindingly fast and agile, and has amazing specials. That cape though... It's definitely been my ace. It's like a teleport-counter that KOs. You can use the cape freely if you anticipate a move, then just warp away instead if you see them not do anything. It's crazy good, and will make opponents nervous about making moves. The warp itself is an overall useful tool.

Shuttle loop also makes people nervous. It forces into a trap mindgame. Air dodge and get shuttle looped off the top as punishment, or don't dodge and get hit in an instant. That, and it's quite the combo tool.

F-smash is more situational, but it hits like a truck... Hard to hit with, but wow, gets Meta Knight kills at 90%.

Drill is as hard to react to as ever, and goes through some projectiles. Pierced through an arrow and a boomerang and then their source... The tornado is weird though, its priority almost seems random (sucks up Sonic's spin dash, but then it didn't, but then it did). But nonetheless very useful, and usually safe if used well. Can also KO off the top late, which makes it deadly as it can't be air dodged.

D-tilt is awesome... When it works.

Seems like Meta Knight's specials and speed are more centric to his game now. His on-stage neutral game is also really good with D-throw and the dash attack, but his aerials are rather unsafe... Jumping D-air is a totally safe offensive option however.

Dimensional Cape though...

Edit: Forgot to mention, F-smash has absurd pushback when blocked, but I'm not sure how safe it is.
 
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ndayday

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Drill Rush is one of my favorite recovery options, especially on stages with the
___________
\__________/

pattern. if they are offstage trying to gimp you, you can drill rush to the ledge which catches them and takes them to when you hit the wall, which is the hardest hit obv. Boom stage spike.
 

DiggersBoy

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Drill Rush is one of my favorite recovery options, especially on stages with the
___________
\__________/

pattern. if they are offstage trying to gimp you, you can drill rush to the ledge which catches them and takes them to when you hit the wall, which is the hardest hit obv. Boom stage spike.
However, Drill Rush is kind of situational, as it does leave you stationary for quite a long time before you start moving. My sparring buddy is part-Jiggles Main, so I have to work extra hard to get back onto stage. To me, the best one is to either jump over their head and DownB cape to the ground, or go below them and up-b to stage. The up-b strategy is one of the best ones for me, primarily because of how versatile it is. If they're on stage, you can still hit them with the shuttle loop to gain a bit of poke and an easier time to get back on. It just... normally depends on the situation.

However, I feel like recovery is pretty bad overall in this game, particularly ledge recovery. Ledge recovery is exceptionally nerfed in this game, particularly because of the removal of ledge immunity after regrabbing ledge a second time, and the loss of wavelanding back onto stage. My best option for regaining neutral from ledge is to fast-fall down, Up-b once more, fast fall down, then Nair back onto stage. Tomahawking also works well in this situation. These are still bad options, but it has to make do. Meta Knight kinda helps with his 6 jumps plus highly mobile B moves, but for characters like Lucina, I feel the pain quite a bit.

I suppose you can say I'm *puts on shades*

REALLY FEELIN' IT
 

ndayday

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oh good one

yeah I'm not saying do it every time haha, but I mean it's just a thing you can do. I did it to a ROB, you know they threw out a move expecting me to recover low and while in the endlag I drill rushed back and stage spiked them.
And you say to recover low with up b but people that know will go for that every time since MK has no invincibility on the recovery, and there are only two hits which are pretty easy to see. Even so, trading a hit with aerial shuttle loop won't kill most people unless they're ridiculously high percent, right? hm but actually a Jiggly might not take that risk, but man a Bowser will for sure and a back air against the stage hurts.

So yes MK's ledge recovery is actually pretty terrible imo. I'm not comfortable using down b to snap to the ledge yet either, I usually accidentally do it when trying to drill rush (and get style points instead of drill rush). I do the upb, drop down > upb too, if it doesn't give me breathing room I like following with fair back on stage instead of nair though.

While we're discussing ledge though, guys always remember that fsmash hits people on the ledge!!! With people that like that regrab it really puts a stop to it (VIllager, Dedede...probably more, people afraid of your position on the stage).

I don't know. I know every says MK is really terrible, and maybe he is pretty bad, but man he's fun. Also why are the characters I play always grab-centric dear god.
 

Claxus

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Against some characters and exceptional players, you actually have to be careful with those up-Bs... Since Meta Knight takes a moment to ledge snap in his loop, I've been staged spiked out of it, and even been smashed out of it... It's pretty bad with Little Mac, he just down-smashes and tanks right through your up-B. Had a few instances with other characters but they got hit at the same time but they got the KO. It takes a lot of timing though so you can always try to delay it or do it earlier than they would think.
While-writing-edit: Ndayday ninja'd me a bit.

It's pretty rare to find players that know they can do that to Meta Knight... But just throwing it out there to be careful. I feel Drill Rush is safer if they're not chasing you off-stage because of its lingering hitbox and control with some pretty fair priority, but also because it instantly ledge-snaps. Down-B is also a good way to go if you're closer because of the invincibility. It's a bit tricky to ledge-snap though. Sometimes, you can even pretend you're going to grab the ledge and use Dimensional Cape while on level with the ledge or even below it, but you can actually bypass it and warp past them.

Oh, anyone ever Drill Rush'd off-stage? It's like a sort of MetaKnightcide. It can KO at 100%ish if they're near the edge, or a bit earlier if you chase them out. I mean, there was this guy that I just couldn't KO and they were at 180%, I knocked him off stage and just said screw it, chased him out with Drill Rush for the win.
 
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DiggersBoy

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Yeah, you guys are probably right. Hard for me to play against a variety, though. My sparring buddy is my brother, but competitivewise, a lot more people here are into CSGO or League than Smash :(

However, you guys are probably right. should encorperate more side-b into my gameplay. I've also tried Tornadoing onto stage, but you get reminded quite easily that Meta Knight has the range and priority of a stick.

But, anyone try tomahawking often? I think it's a remarkable tool for Meta Knight's essential grab game, yet it's also hard for me to do a little (I often do a jab combo or a roll/spot dodge). Also, I've seen Japanese players also do somewhat of a tomahawk, but with a dash. Is it that good or am I making it to be bigger than it should be?

There's so many tactics I need to learn and incorperate... Gotta start now before the WiiU, I guess.
 

Claxus

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Eh, I don't really have anyone to compete with aside from casual friends either, but when you play For Glory a ton you eventually find some great players on occasion.

Shuttle Loop is still a really good recovery, but I just find it's a good idea to mix it up with all three of his recoveries... Or four, because even the Mach Tornado can catch people off guard, but the drill really does that job better. One thing I like to do sometimes is drill towards them as a recovery, and if it's blocked/dodged, go past them and nosedive into the floor to bounce off (usually they try to punish where you were going), then fastfall from the bounce onto the edge. Pretty nice since you still get the ledge invincibility. Just a nice little trick to pull off once or twice.

I don't tomahawk too often, but it's definitely good with Meta Knight. With his super fast aerials, people tend to just try to avoid or block him when he's got momentum. But next thing they they've been faked out and grabbed. Only reason I say not often is because it can get a bit predictable if it's done too much. I tend to do it more after a D-air though. I hover over my opponents a lot with D-airs, so it's very hard to anticipate that I'll just do an empty fastfall.

Dash tomahawk, not too sure. But it's probably a good surprise, because Meta Knight has both an amazing dash grab and dash attack. Problem is that means they'll likely try to dodge or jump away from any ground approach by MK. Or maybe that's the good thing since then you can react to their evasion and punish.
 
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DiggersBoy

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Eh, I don't really have anyone to compete with aside from casual friends either, but when you play For Glory a ton you eventually find some great players on occasion.

Shuttle Loop is still a really good recovery, but I just find it's a good idea to mix it up with all three of his recoveries... Or four, because even the Mach Tornado can catch people off guard, but the drill really does that job better. One thing I like to do sometimes is drill towards them as a recovery, and if it's blocked/dodged, go past them and nosedive into the floor to bounce off (usually they try to punish where you were going), then fastfall from the bounce onto the edge. Pretty nice since you still get the ledge invincibility. Just a nice little trick to pull off once or twice.

I don't tomahawk too often, but it's definitely good with Meta Knight. With his super fast aerials, people tend to just try to avoid or block him when he's got momentum. But next thing they they've been faked out and grabbed. Only reason I say not often is because it can get a bit predictable if it's done too much. I tend to do it more after a D-air though. I hover over my opponents a lot with D-airs, so it's very hard to anticipate that I'll just do an empty fastfall.

Dash tomahawk, not too sure. But it's probably a good surprise, because Meta Knight has both an amazing dash grab and dash attack. Problem is that means they'll likely try to dodge or jump away from any ground approach by MK. Or maybe that's the good thing since then you can react to their evasion and punish.
I dunno, I've seen people use the dash tomahawk quite a bit. Upon relooking, many people use it when the opponent is retreating or rolls away. Could be seen in a lot of mixups in the future.

I also need to get better at nosediving with MK, that bounce angle is craaaazy.
 

ndayday

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The bounce is an absolute godsend. as noted most people go for the obvious punish, but nosediving just flings you right over them lol. Of course later on, people will realize that possibly the best option after avoiding an oncoming drill rush is to shield it and grab, the lag is long enough that they should be able to react without needing to read. faster moves might be an even better option, of course it's all opponent dependent.
And yes, shuttle loop very often will not autosnap to the ledge and kind of loop near the lip of the stage. To fix this recover a bit lower, and aim to the ledge (yes, you can aim the up b in either direction ever so slightly I think).

and mach tornado is only good to me as a hard punish, I would much rather take a chance at shuttle looping. Although I did once catch a Wario out of their bike with it and KO :3
 

DiggersBoy

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Tornado is sexy. Especially in early percents, when you can rack on an easy 20%. Normally, at around 10%, it's not wise to Shuttle Loop, as very little damage would come out of it and there wouldn't be enough knockback to kill.
 

ndayday

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that's what I meant, but just that I don't throw it out randomly, just when they do something like airdodge into the ground or are falling helpless, etc.
 

DiggersBoy

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that's what I meant, but just that I don't throw it out randomly, just when they do something like airdodge into the ground or are falling helpless, etc.
Oh, that. I do that all the time, XD

It feels like when I throw a tornado every now and then, I intimidate them by showing them that my character can literally dish out 20% if they mess up at all. However, if I do it too often, it gets very predictable, and can be countered.

I get pretty aggressive with my tornados: I often jump off stage, a little bit below them, and catch them with a tornado as they're recovering back onto stage. However, this gets pretty bad, as I do SD from tornado free fall every now and then :p
 
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