Q&A Meta Knight: Questions & Answers Thread (Don't make or reply to new threads just asking questions)

[I speak Spanish too]

What is MK's combo game?

 

[warionumbah2]

Katakiri made a catalog for a reason.

http://smashboards.com/threads/meta-knight-resource-catalog-youve-much-yet-to-learn.407351/

 

[I speak Spanish too]

well i didnt know thanks

 

[Lotuz]

Is it true that you can sdi out of mk's up b so that only the first hit connects?

 

[I speak Spanish too]

Is it true that you can sdi out of mk's up b so that only the first hit connects?

If that is true, we just lost our most reliable kill option.

 

[Meatbag]

No, who told you that?

 

[warionumbah2]

Don't listen to commentators lol "MK beats Sheik" and "You can mash out his Uair combos".

I have been researching Meta Knight recently and have a few tips of information.

1: Shuttle Loop 1 and Shuttle Launch 1 have two distinct hit boxes; the sweet spot and the sour spot. I had suspected this up until recently but never confirmed precisely how they worked. Shuttle Launch 1's sweet spot is right in front of Meta Knight as he leaves the ground. Shuttle Loop 1's sweet spot is the visual blade arc that is shown as he ascends, directly in front of Meta Knight, as well as in front and above. There is a star flash that happens when using Shuttle Loop 1. The sweet spot seems to end vertically just before that star flash. Shuttle Launch 1's sweet spot is a lot less defined and is much closer to Meta Knight's launch start position near the ground.

The sweet spot for both has high base knock back, and low knock back growth. To give you an idea of the kind of base knock back it has, if you take Sheik and bring her to Duck Hunt, bring her to the far left of the stage and then roll her to the right once, if you Shuttle Launch to the left and arc it forward so the 2nd hit misses, she will be launched high enough to land on the second tallest branch. If you repeat this at 150%, she will only go marginally higher, enough to reach the tallest branch. Shuttle Loop behaves in a very similar fashion. The base knock back and knock back growth as such that even as high as 200% or more, we will never miss the 2nd hit when sweet spotting as long as we arc correctly.

The sour spot has low base knock back, low knock back growth. However, the knock back growth on this is very important.

Essentially there are two reasons we as players miss our Shuttle Loops. We hit the sweet spot and arc Shuttle Loop incorrectly in tandem with our opponents DI, or we hit the sour spot near the end of the hit box and they are past a certain %.

To illustrate what I mean by the latter, take Sheik to Duck Hunt, put her on the fourth highest branch (left one), and roll Meta Knight towards the ledge. Do a short hop up air and buffer a Shuttle Loop. If done correctly, Meta Knight will be as low as possible to the ground while still doing a Shuttle Loop, not Shuttle Launch. This distance between Meta Knight and Sheik is approximately as far away as the opponent can be before Shuttle Loop 1 will begin missing. Up until 129, Shuttle Loop 2 will connect. After 130, Shuttle Loop 2 misses. Essentially this is the % where a Meta Knight would need to adjust the timing of the move so that he goes for more than just the tip of Shuttle Loop 1 in order to secure a kill.

 

[Ulevo]

Unless the information comes directly from a Meta Knight main, I would be skepticle. Most information is incorrect assumption or second hand misinterpretation.

 

[Number Three]

Okay, I keep seeing things online claiming that Meta Knight is actually good to use against Sheik (apparently the MU isn't terrible at all). Is this really true or is that just people saying things? If it is true, what about Meta Knight makes him good to use against Sheik? I've been trying to look for another character I can use to fight Sheik as I currently only have one (Rosalina) and I'd like to have two characters who fair well against Sheik just in case I have a really bad day with Rosalina and need another character to pull me through a set. I mained Meta Knight in the early 3DS days, but I eventually moved him down to "fun character" status in favor of maining Mario. I'd really consider picking up Meta Knight again if it means having a good counter to Sheik.

 

[I speak Spanish too]

What's the frame data for MK's Up-B?
Does the nair hitbox start in back or the front of MK?

 

[Pazx]

Okay, I keep seeing things online claiming that Meta Knight is actually good to use against Sheik (apparently the MU isn't terrible at all). Is this really true or is that just people saying things? If it is true, what about Meta Knight makes him good to use against Sheik? I've been trying to look for another character I can use to fight Sheik as I currently only have one (Rosalina) and I'd like to have two characters who fair well against Sheik just in case I have a really bad day with Rosalina and need another character to pull me through a set. I mained Meta Knight in the early 3DS days, but I eventually moved him down to "fun character" status in favor of maining Mario. I'd really consider picking up Meta Knight again if it means having a good counter to Sheik.

If you're looking for "a good counter to Sheik" please keep looking (and tell me if you find anything) because that sure as hell isn't MK. At this point in time we can't say for sure Sheik loses any specific matchup. She's that good.

That said, MK is one of the better characters at dealing with Sheik. Sheik probably has a slight advantage and it's not going to get much better for us (bar patches changing things) but a MK playing patiently has all the tools necessary to take the set.

I also advise you not to use MK if you're not going to put a lot of effort into him (ie you will struggle with him if you continue using the 6 characters in your sig). However if you're sure you want to use this character against Sheik, start reading. It will be worth the effort.

http://smashboards.com/threads/meta-knight-match-up-discussion-2-sheik.392532/

http://smashboards.com/threads/meta-knight-combo-compendium.405507/

 

[Lotuz]

How do you play Meta Knight's neutral game? I feel like you can't force dash attacks all the time, especially against characters with good horizontal zoning tools like Luigi and Villager. Once your opponent catches on to run up shield and roll behind he is lacking mix-ups and can't really force a mistake.

 

[warionumbah2]

MK just isn't a good secondary, after seeing pocket MKs crash and burn in the furst set irl or in videos i came to this conclusion. Its mainly due to his skill floor/ceiling which stunts your mains growth. You won't get nice results in terms of winning online frequently or placing well in tourneys for months. If you actually bounce back and forth between 3 or 4 characters don't bother learning MK.

Sheik wins 60:40(as people like to call +1 or -1) if she plays optimally, there's nothing we can do against a campy Sheik. Thankfully this isn't a perfect world where her camping is 100%, there's holes, she's light, she falls fast, her airdodge reads are insufficient, her damage per hit is awful. Its not easy for the Sheik player to needle camp. It requires a **** ton of focus which(despite my disgust of the playstyle) i respect it.

 

[Number Three]

If you're looking for "a good counter to Sheik" please keep looking (and tell me if you find anything) because that sure as hell isn't MK. At this point in time we can't say for sure Sheik loses any specific matchup. She's that good.

That said, MK is one of the better characters at dealing with Sheik. Sheik probably has a slight advantage and it's not going to get much better for us (bar patches changing things) but a MK playing patiently has all the tools necessary to take the set.

I also advise you not to use MK if you're not going to put a lot of effort into him (ie you will struggle with him if you continue using the 6 characters in your sig). However if you're sure you want to use this character against Sheik, start reading. It will be worth the effort.

http://smashboards.com/threads/meta-knight-match-up-discussion-2-sheik.392532/

http://smashboards.com/threads/meta-knight-combo-compendium.405507/

Thanks for this information. It really helps a lot and it clearly shows Meta Knight has the tools to take on Sheik. I definitely will have to drop someone if I decide to pick back up Meta Knight. It'll probably be Mario as he's my worst main. I know MK's difficulty curve is a ton higher in this game (not that I mind), so I'll definitely be putting in a good deal of practice with him if I decide to pick him back up. I just have to decide if it's worth dropping Mario for Meta Knight just because he does well against Sheik. Mario fairs pretty well against a majority of the top tiers (at least in the current meta) and some even say he could be a top tier himself. I know that, realistically, since Mewtwo most likely is the worst (tier wise) of my mains, I should just drop him, however, I'm not because I love Mewtwo, not as a Smash Bros. fighter, but as a character. Is that stupid? Probably. However, I have the most fun with the game when I play characters because I like them as characters or I like the games they come from, which is the case for all of my mains. So, I won't drop Mewtwo. Thank for these links, though. I'll have to experiment in the lab and see how to do all of the combos.

In terms of Sheik counters, I actually screwed up when I said counters. I really meant even MUs since Sheik is one of the two characters in the game that I believe don't loose to anyone with the other being Rosalina.

Rosalina is an obvious choice for an even MU against Sheik. I've heard people say it's even, some say it's in Sheik's favor, others say it's Rosa's favor. I personally think it's even.

These are also characters I've heard do the best against Sheik compared to the rest of the cast, but I don't have as much experience with the MU to say for sure:
-Mario
-Luigi
-Pikachu

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Pikachu does well against Sheik. Sheik beats Mario but Mario has a chance. Luigi gets bodied if the Sheik just camps the hell out of him. He has extreme difficulty catching her and he can't force her to do anything she doesn't want to do outside of close range footsie games.

EDIT: MK doesn't even need a secondary for Sheik. Just learn the MU better. You are almost always better off playing it with your main unless it's just a really bad MU. And its not. Its far more work to learn another character just to learn a MU rather than get better with the character you main. If got ***** by Sheik I'd understand. But we don't. MK alone takes enough time and energy to learn. But that said if you're gonna learn a character for Sheik and you really feel like that's the better option, Pikachu does well. But he's also super hard to master.

 

[warionumbah2]

How do you play Meta Knight's neutral game? I feel like you can't force dash attacks all the time, especially against characters with good horizontal zoning tools like Luigi and Villager. Once your opponent catches on to run up shield and roll behind he is lacking mix-ups and can't really force a mistake.

Just watch Ito play. Or wait for Ulevo to come online and talk you through it.

I'll link you to those specific MUs although his Villager match wasn't a good performance and it was custom Villager.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONvjdFvryYQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDE9KH5b8hA


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PO5b9An-o2E

 

[busken]

Honestly, if you are having trouble with the Sheik MU your best bet is to go for the Ditto tbh. Only notable character that doesn't have a bad mu against sheik is pikachu and his skill cap is also high. If you play MK alot all you need to do is learn the MU more, but then again MK isn't a character you can just pick up.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

I would never ditto a competent Sheik main personally. You are always going to be at a disadvantage if you're trying to 2nd or pocket the same character you're opponent is using unless you're just that much better than them or said character is very easy to pick up (which Sheik is not).

 

[Number Three]

Honestly, if you are having trouble with the Sheik MU your best bet is to go for the Ditto tbh. Only notable character that doesn't have a bad mu against sheik is pikachu and his skill cap is also high. If you play MK alot all you need to do is learn the MU more, but then again MK isn't a character you can just pick up.

I personally don't like playing Sheik in this game. She feels too different from how she does in Melee, the game I play her in. I wouldn't want to ditto someone with a character that they're obviously better with. I've had lots of success against Sheiks with Rosalina, as that's probably the matchup I have the most experience in, so I could just stick to her and maybe Mario because he can do a lot from what I know. I honestly just wanted to know what the Meta Knight-Sheik MU was so I could decide if I wanted to try Meta Knight out again. I know that his learning curve is pretty high, but I still have some experience from back when I mained him. I'd put in a ton practice with him if I do decide to, though.

 

[Trunks159]

Honestly, if you are having trouble with the Sheik MU your best bet is to go for the Ditto tbh. Only notable character that doesn't have a bad mu against sheik is pikachu and his skill cap is also high. If you play MK alot all you need to do is learn the MU more, but then again MK isn't a character you can just pick up.

Kinda difficult to beat a Shiek main with your Shiek secondary. Metaknight can deal with Shiek (not like Pika can of course). Good thing is we can't get gimped, and dash attack is good for jump happy Shieks.

I think its hilarious how Pikachu was the only one who could beat (even) Metaknight in Brawl and now he's one of the only characters who can face Shiek.

 

[Tito Maas]

Does anyone have Meta Knight's frame data? Just need to review his lag frames and such

 

[Meatbag]

http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Meta Knight Everything you need is right here

 

[warionumbah2]

His jab is frame 6, he can come to my door step and settle things face to face.

 

[Meatbag]

Wait, was nairs endlag reduce to 16 or 14

 

[Schilt]

K, so. I've got a question regarding the u-air strings. Moving aside from the fact that I can't consistently land u-air on characters at the moment, my question is regarding control schemes. How exactly do people who are capable of the strings get them down?

I struggle pretty hard with actually keeping the u-air going whilst still gaining height with the jumps. My control scheme is mostly defaults, with tap-jump and so on turned off. The way I've been doing it is by jumping, up airing, then rolling my thumb across the X and A buttons almost simultaneously so that I'm nearly pressing them at the same time. This is the only way I've been capable of achieving it without just losing height or missing an attack, but it doesn't exactly seem an optimal way to do it. So my question is, am I missing something obvious here regarding controls, or is it just a matter of practice in the end?

 

[warionumbah2]

There's no special trick to Uair combos.

 

[Meatbag]

Turn tap jump on, remember the percent when characters will get launched for the up air, and then make sure you hit the dash attack sweet spot.

 

[Amadeus9]

Tap jump is NOT necessary. Can make some things easier, but if you don't like tap jump, keep it off. The only trick to U-air strings is practice.

 

[Qazoo306]

I usually use X to jump, but when ever I practice Up Air > Up Air I use Y and A to hit my up airs rather than X. I think sliding your thumb for fast aerials from Y is easier than from X.

 

[Ulevo]

Tap jump is NOT necessary. Can make some things easier, but if you don't like tap jump, keep it off. The only trick to U-air strings is practice.

This is false.

Here's an exercise. Hit Y or X to jump and then hit up and B. Your goal is to do this fast enough to be able to do a Shuttle Loop from the jump squat animation. If you do an aerial Shuttle Loop, you failed the exercise. If you did a Shuttle Launch, you passed.

Can't do it? Of course you can't. This is why people use either tap jump or have to remap one of their other buttons to Shuttle Loop out of shield.

Your proficiency with your moves is highly correlated with the use of your control scheme. I have no problem with up air strings. I can do them in my sleep with no practice. Why? Because I use Y to jump and have my thumb resting on both buttons at the same time. This allows me to buffer an up air as I jump.

Anyone trying to hit X then A is going to experience some issues.

There are a few options to help this dilemma. You can set one of your other buttons, such as a trigger, to jump so that you can press the two buttons near simultaneously. You can keep tap jump on and use that to jump while you hit A to up air. Or you can use Y.

I appreciate the rewards of practice, but the concept "smarter, not harder" needs to be considered.

 

[Trunks159]

@ Ulevo
What controller are you talking about?

 

[Ulevo]

@ Ulevo
What controller are you talking about?

What I said applies to GC controller, though it could apply to Pro Controller.

 

[W.A.C.]

For up air strings, I use L to jump and the right stick for up airs with the Pro Controller. I'm able to do up airs strings regularly, but rarely get a kill out of them under 60%

 

[AmishTechnology]

Yeah I think you just need honest practice. Despite playing like 3 hours every 2 weeks, my 5x u-air has been getting better. I use tap jump off, but you absolutely have to remap a button to Special in order to pull off out of shield/initial dash shuttle loop, plus it comes in handy for other characters too (like Charizard Rock Slide, Ryu easy-Shoryuken out of shield, Link up-B out of shield, etc.). If you remap a shoulder button to Jump, you can rely entirely on the control stick for movement and the c-stick for u-air and aerials (and if you set the c-stick to Tilt Attacks instead of Smash Attacks, you will have slightly more air control but this is much more negligible for Meta Knight's "heaviness" compared to Jigglypuff). My left thumb accuracy isn't the best so I still screw up and do bair or fair accidentally, but when I'm on point, it works just as well as any other setup.

The only "trick" involved in the 5x u-air is that sometimes you will have to fast fall in between the jumps to adjust Meta Knight's positioning correctly. Another trick is that a super quick-double jump is just between a full hop and a short hop in height at roughly the same speed, so sometimes you need to use that to initiate combos instead.

You also have to be able to recognize when to stop the u-air chain and just go for a guaranteed option instead, such as an earlier up-B (probably your most common option), or a fair/bair/nair/even a dair depending on the positioning and circumstance.

 

[Urameshi_]

what are your options for getting back onto the stage from the ledge?

so far i have;

- Drill back onto the stage if i see an opening to do so (admittedly not a good idea like, ever.) but i can always angle it down to clang and immediately grab the ledge again if need be. it's not a good idea to do this a lot because it's a free punish for the opponent if they're quick enough

..and that's it.

i struggle getting back on stage from the ledge and was hoping to hear of some other methods.

 

[Fye]

You can ledge jump and immediately Dair to cover your opponent's option. Then there's the regular ledge getup that has a nice amount of invincibility. If you want to cover options in front of you, F-tilt and D-tilt or just a straight out grab are nice, quick options. You also have the option to roll from there as MK does have a solid roll. A roll-getup is kind of slow, but you can mix it in to keep your opponent guessing.

 

[LostinpinK]

^ all of the above + drop from ledge, jump, get back on stage, dtilt / ftilt / shield / roll. It's pretty good too.

The key is just to mix everything we've said so you don't get predictable. You should just know that rolling from the ledge is generally the worst option, and getup attack should only be used when your opponent is doing something stupid like charging a smash.

Oh and drilling is really terrible.

 

[Trunks159]

Also caping onto a Battlefield Platform, or at autocancel height.

 

[Chez G.]

How do you perform a forward smash out of a dash (demonstrated here)?

 

[warionumbah2]

all it is i just start an fsmash at the beginning of my next foxtrot and it causes you to stop in place. its a pretty good mixup for when you dtilt at high percents and they think youre gonna dash grab, or when theyre just under pressure.

Here