Data Meta Knight Match-Up Discussion Directory

[Myran]

yeah but the difference between rich brown and imhip, and random sheik players is that those two are the best of their character on the west coast. i mean i guess you could say theyre bad at the matchup but if you arent going to go off results then whats the point i mean you can theory craft all day about your characters strengths and make any character sound op

I mean I've 3-0'd the best Sheiks in Florida before. I didn't specify player name, but I'm just saying because you 3-0'd a couple Olimars doesn't mean the MU is in your favor.

It's very much possible that east coast Olimars could 3-0 you. I'd just recommend finding a larger sample size first.

 

[ItoI6]

how little do you think of rich brown and im hip to say east coast olimars would 3-0 me lol. rich brown is ranked 7th on socal pr and im hip is 13th

idk how you can tell me to find a a larger sample size when your sample size against mk players is literally zero. how many olimar players do i have to beat? at least my opinion is formed from actually playing against olimar players rather than just coming in here and saying "i think olimar wins because he is a good character and you do not realize this yet"

 

[Myran]

how little do you think of rich brown and im hip to say east coast olimars would 3-0 me lol. rich brown is ranked 7th on socal pr and im hip is 13th

idk how you can tell me to find a a larger sample size when your sample size against mk players is literally zero. how many olimar players do i have to beat? at least my opinion is formed from actually playing against olimar players rather than just coming in here and saying "i think olimar wins because he is a good character and you do not realize this yet"

I never said Olimar is a good character. I was just saying maybe West Coast Olimar players aren't very good in the MU, I'ma let you do you though since you seem to be getting a little frustrated. One last thing before I go, not all Olimar players play the same. I'd love for you to play me, and I'd be interested in seeing how you do vs Dabuz. Either way this conversation seems to be over. Happy smashing!

In the spirit of research I'd be more than happy to play some of your more experienced Meta Knight players so that I could get a better understanding if the MU if any one you would like.

 

[Amadeus9]

I never said Olimar is a good character. I was just saying maybe West Coast Olimar players aren't very good in the MU, I'ma let you do you though since you seem to be getting a little frustrated. One last thing before I go, not all Olimar players play the same. I'd love for you to play me, and I'd be interested in seeing how you do vs Dabuz. Either way this conversation seems to be over. Happy smashing!

In the spirit of research I'd be more than happy to play some of your more experienced Meta Knight players so that I could get a better understanding if the MU if any one you would like.

Ito is pretty much the authority on this character, and kind of invented all of the tech for him too. So I guess he's your guy if you want matchup knowledge. But it really seems more like you want confirmation of your own opinion on the matchup rather than his view ^^

 

[Bonk!]

I think we should do Pac-man after Yoshi. I've been playing a couple of them on the ladder and they can give MK a lot of trouble.

 

[warionumbah2]

Thats probably MU experience talking, how many competitive players main pac man? Rather do Wario, Villager and maybe olimar (since we apprantly lose this MU).

This whole convo gained us nothing tbh, lets end it since its basically one side actually giving an argument that isn't based on theorycraft.

 

[Ultinarok]

Doesn't MK have a great tool against Olimar in Up-Throw? Kills all of his Pikmin with a dtilt follow-up or something like that. Olimar basically loses at least a couple after every dash grab, so Olimar is forced to evade or Pikmin Throw spam to avoid losing them all.

 

[Myran]

Ito is pretty much the authority on this character, and kind of invented all of the tech for him too. So I guess he's your guy if you want matchup knowledge. But it really seems more like you want confirmation of your own opinion on the matchup rather than his view ^^

Well I stand by what I said. I'm happy to be proven wrong though.

 

[PUK]

Thats probably MU experience talking, how many competitive players main pac man? Rather do Wario, Villager and maybe olimar (since we apprantly lose this MU).

eventhub says MK wins
http://www.eventhubs.com/tiers/ssb4/character/meta-knight/

 

[Myran]

eventhub says MK wins
http://www.eventhubs.com/tiers/ssb4/character/meta-knight/

Eventhubs is a joke.

 

[Amadeus9]

eventhub says MK wins
http://www.eventhubs.com/tiers/ssb4/character/meta-knight/

Rofl they have Ness as one of his worst matchups. What kind of nonsense is that. What a good tier list guys

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

This mini discussion basically summed up why we don't leave the bat cave to discuss MUs too much anymore. Usually ends up like this.

 

[Dabuz]

@ Myran and @Ito16 Let's actually discuss this MU, K?

 

[Ulevo]

Rather than having the discussion here, why not open up an Olimar thread? He is a viable threat, and we need to discuss him at some point.

@ ItoI6 @ Katakiri @ Myran @ ZTD | TECHnology @ Dabuz

 

[Myran]

I'm down to discuss.

 

[Katakiri]

As much as I love watching Ito show why he wins the Myran MU, I'll set up the proper Olimar discussion when I get back from a tournament today. Keep it civil, people. We're all friends here.

 

[Dabuz]

BTW @ ItoI6 , do you have vids vs. RB and I'm Hip?

 

[warionumbah2]

As much as I love watching Ito show why he wins the Myran MU.

I'm dead bruh.

 

[ItoI6]

40-60
40-60
45-55
35-65
40-60
50-50
60-40
60-40
40-60
40-60
- - :- -
50-50
45-55
60-40

thats what im thinking atm

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

I agree with Ito except I feel like we lose to Diddy still, I think Rob is 45-55 and Yoshi is 40-60 to me. Everything else looks good. Oh except Oli. I still think its even but I'm not consistent at all with the MU so I'm not sure.

 

[Myran]

40-60
40-60
45-55
35-65
40-60
50-50
60-40
60-40
40-60
40-60
- - :- -
50-50
45-55
60-40

thats what im thinking atm

Is the first number the opponent or MK?

 

[Bonk!]

Is the first number the opponent or MK?

The first number is Mk and the second is the opponent.

I strongly feel like we have a major advantage against Luigi. If we take things slow there really isn't anything he can do aside from throw fireballs. That's literally like his only approach.

He also can't juggle us effectively. If we're in the air after something like an Up-smash. We can just Dimensional Cape auto-cancel away from him and he'll be to slow and slippery to catch up.

 

[warionumbah2]

We don't lose to Luigi, its even until MKs decide to actually play like cancer.


Nice double post Bonk you're on a roll, imma post here to stop the third.

 

[Bonk!]

Lel... when I typed the first one I didn't think it would go through for having too little characters, but I guess I just learned that the hard way XD!

 

[Ulevo]

Couple things I want to say. For starters, I think a little disagreement is healthy in these discussions because it means that there are parts to the match up puzzle each of us are missing. So long as we discuss thoroughly, then we can add to the overall picture. We do not have very one sided disagreements. No one here is saying Meta Knight goes 7:3 versus Luigi and other people saying it is 3:7. The differences are usually minimal.

Secondly, talking about the pros and cons of either character, where they excel, and the match up ratios...honestly have no place in these discussions. If I had to compare it to a book, its the superficial synopsis at the back and the appealing front cover. We need to talk about what we need to be doing in these match ups. If Sheik is charging Needle Storm, what do we do? If Sheik is edge guarding us, what do we do? If Sheik is at 90%, what are our options? What about 140%? Knowing a match up ratio, or that Sheik is a good character, is not going to help anyone who reads these threads win anything meaningful.

I am not saying there is not pertinent discussion happening, but a lot of it is frivolous and irrelevant. When I read these threads, I want to see information that will help me against a Sheik, not an explanation that I should or should not be winning the match up.

 

[W.A.C.]

BTW @ ItoI6 , do you have vids vs. RB and I'm Hip?

Vs. I'm Hip

vs. Rich Brown

I don't know if there are any other videos of Ito facing those players. Took me awhile just to find both of these recorded streams.

 

[Myran]

Vs. I'm Hip

vs. Rich Brown

I don't know if there are any other videos of Ito facing those players. Took me awhile just to find both of these recorded streams.

Neither video link is working, says the channel is gone.

 

[W.A.C.]

Neither video link is working, says the channel is gone.

Apologies for that. I should've checked the links.

Vs. I'm Hip (@1:38:00)

vs. Rich Brown

vs. Rich Brown (Loser's Finals Rematch)

 

[Qazoo306]

Any advice for beating a campy Marth? I played one on For Glory, and I'm going to a tournament on Saturday. I'm sure I'll see a marth or two while I'm there. Marth can use down tilt to beat grounded approaches and Fair and f tilt to beat aerial approaches. I know you can combo and destroy once you get in, but getting in is hard. Any advice?

 

[Katakiri]

So in your opinions, what is the current state of MK's match-ups? A lot of people seem to want some MU ratios change so this is your chance to change them without the need for some massive write-up about the MU. Just post which MUs you want changed and as long as it's reasonable and the consensus is behind you, we can change it pretty quickly. A sentence or two as to why is nice but not needed.

However if you do want to go over the changes in any MU in the character's actual MU thread, that's greatly appreciated since it helps newcomers not be confused by out-dated MU info.

@ warionumbah2 @ ItoI6 @ ZTD | TECHnology @ Ulevo @ Bonk!

MUs I personally want changed:

->50:50
Nerfs. B-Throw was the big issue. The F-Smash & Up-Smash nerfs didn't help Sonic's case either.

->50:50
Sheik gets KOs via manipulating and frame trapping her opponents. I know I preach this every day I post but we're a lightweight fastfaller with 5 mid-air jumps and a teleport; and now we have a solid FF N-Air as well. Sheik doesn't KO us nearly as easily as she can most of the cast. I'm not even remotely afraid of this character.

->50:50
Nerfs. Up-Air was by far the biggest reason it was 40:60 originally.

I might also sign for being more in her favor. I haven't played many great ZSS recently but I trust the people that have been talking about the MU recently.

 

[Bonk!]

I agree with all of that for the most part. I do think that is 45:55 in her favor if she plays lame. I also think is 55:45 in our favor if we play lame. I don't know what people think of Diddy.

 

[warionumbah2]

Changes
45:55(jab is hella useful to steal Yoshi's 2nd jump)
60:40(same as Luigi, we get the lead and its game over to put it bluntly)
60:40 or 55:45(we don't lose to snails guys, we dictate how the match goes)
40:60(this MU improved alot)
35:65(lol do i really need to explain?)
40:60
45:55(nerfs while we got buffs, even in customs MK can hold his own)
50:50(nerfs while we got buffs)
45:55
55:45
Keep the same we still beat them. Not sure about atm.

I disagree with 'if played lame' in a competition we or Sheik players have no reason to not play lame, when a Sheik doesn't lame you out that's insulting imo. I'll back hand any ZSS player that thinks its hard for them to win, you got so much over MK.

I'm just rolling with the 'everyone loses to Sheik train' didn't think Ito's tourney were looking at this thread tbh. I hope other members jump on an old MU thread cuz it'll be nice seeing input from MK users other than the usual(me,ulevo,bonk,kata,ito,fye,tech and w.a.c) don't be shy any input is worth it. Other than ZSS(i think),R.O.B and Olimar MU's our play,ratio and overall options has changed FOR THE BETTER.

30:70 = Clear disadvantage(We don't get 7:3 anymore but ZSS comes close imo)
60:40/40:60 = Slight advantage/disadvantage
45:55/55:45 = Round it to even or in their favour/Round it to even or in our favour

Alot of characters get wasted by top tiers so MK losing 40:60 is not and i repeat is not a big deal, its good to admit that your main doesn't go even steven with top tiers.

 

[Bonk!]

(me,ulevo,bonk,kata,ito,fye)

Don't forget W.A.C. & Tech <3

 

[Ulevo]

5:5 - 4:6
5:5
6:4 - 5:5
5:5
6:4 - 5:5
6:4
5:5
5:5
4:6 - 5:5
6:4
5:5 - 4:6
4:6 - 5:5
5:5
5:5
4:6 - 5:5
4:6

These are my current thoughts. Characters that would be worth discussing in the future include and , as well as and in the event we intend to talk customs.

 

[ItoI6]

sheik is even until she camps you with needles i think...but im ok with 45-55.

i agree with diddy 50-50 maybe even mk advantage, but its pretty close either way

i think sonic is much worse with customs on but even off i think its 45-55 his favor at least

 

[Ulevo]

I am going to make a claim that Roy is a potential problematic match up for Meta Knight. This is theoretical, as the character is still relatively new, however I have a basis for this hypothesis.

Roy has identical run speed, faster air speed, and faster fall speed than Meta Knight. All of these mobility specs allow him to keep up with Meta Knight rather easily. It makes certain combos on Roy unsafe as he is able to fall to the stage quickly for a punish. His normals are quite fast for the range he has, ranging from frame 5-7. All of his normals outrange the majority of Meta Knights move set. For instance, there is nothing Meta Knight has that can out space down tilt, and it is faster in recovery than Meta Knights forward smash. His aerials also out space ours. His Blazer has super armor from frame 4-10, and invincibility on frame 11, and when used on the ground, will kill Meta Knight with perfect DI and no rage at 110% ~ on Final Destination. He has many frame traps, making the already daunting task of entering his disjoint space an even larger issue. His damage is high; his neutral air does 15% by itself, and his combo game is both consistent and leads in to advantageous states. And while he has a hard time confirming in to knock outs, stray hits that normally would kill characters early will kill Meta Knight definitively.

From the testing I have done and the matches I have played, I believe Roy has the potential to be a 4:6 match up for Meta Knight. If players have any valuable input on how to handle Roy, I think that would be good to discuss. Roy will inevitably show up in tournaments in the near future as he is turning out to be both a good and popular character.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

At a glance:

50-50 - It was always about Up Air. New improved Jab also helps here a bit.

50-50 - I never believed we won this and we have a very good Fox in my scene that I clash with in tournament often enough. I am convinced its even.

50-50 - I think the reward Luigi can get from any percent is what keeps this from being in our favor in my opinion. But yeah, lame him out and it's entirely doable.

55-45 - This is a very mid range/neutral game very fight and the buffs that were recently bestowed upon this make that easier. I was pretty set that it was even before but I think we now have a very slight advantage.

45-55 - The nerfs make this a lot more doable imo.

60-40 - Nothing has really changed here.

50-50 - I'm not convinced we win. Getting in on Olimar is pretty hard, we just do awful things to him when we get in. I could maybe see 55-45 though.

50-50 - Pika's neutral is godlike. He just has trouble getting the kill.

50-50 - Everything I read from Katakiri/Mister Eric made sense to me.

55-45 - I think this Mu is easier said than done. However, I also suck at it so it could very well be 60-40.

45-55 - We never had the advantage against this character. Things get hard when they realize they can just camp us and beat us in the neutral over and over. The saving grace is the fact that we'll probably be at full rage against them in most cases when it comes time to get the kill.

45-55 - It was always about B-Throw. He's still pretty annoying. And you have to absolutely know what Sonic is capable of or you'll get bopped. Once you learn, it's a matter of being patient, opportunistic and very very safe.

55-45 - Rush down > Villager.

50-50 - The lame game does not work here. He benefits from it far more. His ability to reset and play the neutral game over and over is annoying. But once we get in on him, he's in a bad situation.

45-55 - As I grow more comfortable with this MU, I feel like its more attainable.

35-65 - I think we've established this is bad and why.

My impressions on the new DLC:

60-40 - It's like Ness imo.

55-45 - He's free off stage before he can use Blazer. But you can't get grabbed by him and you can't hit his shield anything dumb or you'll be losing stocks early.

50-50 (Not sure yet, we're not gonna see any godlike ones for a while)- He has a lot of end lag on his moves but he kills so early and has a great juggle game as well.

 

[warionumbah2]

MK doesn't go even with that many characters tbh.

I don't have an opinion on Roy, if I do say something Ulevo will tell me off for 'underrating Roy' and all that jazz.

Lucas is a weaker Ness good lord, if im missing anything please let me know.

Ryu I think beats us but I dont play good Ryu's and there's no high level Ryu's out there atm. Just theorycraft stuff like the Roy write up above shouldn't really talk about new characters IMO. Too much guessing(other than lucas).

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

I don't feel like ROB's strengths are enough to warrant a 40-60 for us. IF he won (and I don't think he does because I too have played Mister Eric and other ROBs) it would be no worse than 45-55. And I can agree that we might beat our Olimar but that is no better than 55-45 to me. And I definitely still think that we do not beat Luigi as of yet even if we become the cancer. Wario is definitely even. Diddy definitely seems even to me post patch. Pikachu seems quite even to me as well. We don't bop Fox like we originally thought we did. I'm confident it's even. Ryu is kind of a guess right now as he's a week old.

 

[warionumbah2]

In a competition we shouldn't be holding back our cancer play, its their fault for coming at MK with slow characters. There's over 50 characters why use a character that gets camped by MK?

R.O.B,Luigi and Olimar are not even MUs. You can argue for rob i guess but the other two aren't really debatable, only thing you can say is 'its hard to get in' these two must live with the fact that we can lame them out on any stage.