Data Meta Knight Match-Up Discussion Directory

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Katakiri
#1
Welcome to the Meta Knight Match-Up Discussion Directory!:4metaknight:

Having trouble finding the match-up thread you want? Want to talk about a match-up there's no thread for yet? Want to suggest the next character we discuss?
If you said yes to any of those questions, consult your doctor you're in the right place!

Match-Up Scale:
  • 100:0 - Nearly impossible to lose
  • 90:10 - Massive Advantage
  • 80:20 - Strong Advantage
  • 70:30 - Moderate Advantage
  • 60:40 - Slight Advantage
  • 50:50 - Evenly Matched
  • 40:60 - Slight Disadvantage
  • 30:70 - Moderate Disadvantage
  • 20:80 - Strong Disadvantage
  • 10:90 - Massive Disadvantage
  • 0:100 - Nearly impossible to win
On-Going Match-Up Discussions (Most are out-dated):
:4sonic:45:55 http://smashboards.com/threads/meta-knight-match-up-discussion-1-sonic.392531/
:4sheik:40-60 http://smashboards.com/threads/meta-knight-match-up-discussion-sheik-re-discussed.429641/
:4luigi:50-50 http://smashboards.com/threads/meta-knight-match-up-discussion-3-luigi.391495/
:4zss:40-60 http://smashboards.com/threads/meta-knight-match-up-discussion-4-zero-suit-samus.392743/
:4falcon:45:55 http://smashboards.com/threads/meta-knight-match-up-discussion-5-captain-falcon.393793/
:4diddy:50:50 http://smashboards.com/threads/meta-knight-match-up-discussion-6-diddy-kong.394623/
:rosalina:60:40 http://smashboards.com/threads/meta-knight-match-up-discussion-7-rosalina-luma.395463/
:4ness:60:40 http://smashboards.com/threads/meta-knight-match-up-discussion-8-ness.396871/
:4fox:55:45 http://smashboards.com/threads/meta-knight-match-up-discussion-9-fox.398059/
:4rob:50:50 http://smashboards.com/threads/meta-knight-match-up-discussion-10-r-o-b.401093/
:4metaknight:- - :- - http://smashboards.com/threads/meta-knight-match-up-discussion-10-5-meta-knight.401098/
:4mario:55:45 http://smashboards.com/threads/meta-knight-match-up-discussion-11-mario.402416/
:4yoshi:45:55 http://smashboards.com/threads/meta-knight-match-up-discussion-12-yoshi.403923/
:4olimar:50:50 http://smashboards.com/threads/meta-knight-match-up-discussion-13-olimar.405737/
:4pikachu: --:-- http://smashboards.com/threads/meta-knight-match-up-discussion-14-pikachu.409554/
 
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#3
With the 1.0.6 update looming, after this week (:4fox:), we're going to have a recess period to find and get used to any changes. During that time, all currently open discussions are up for reevaluation. Just make sure your opinions are well-informed and not jumping the gun like "Diddy's garbage now. 70:30 MK wins.:dkmelee:"
 

Bonk!

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#4
Just make sure your opinions are well-informed and not jumping the gun like "Diddy's garbage now. 70:30 MK wins.:dkmelee:"
Lol.. Speaking of which I really hope we get more buffs than just kill power this time, if anything.
 

(Buddha)

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#5
I think Meta Knight should be used more often... He can be good... I would use him in tourneys but no one responded to my thread.
I hope MK gets buffs in the next patch. Like getting his spike back, if it was taken away from him.
 

Kaffei

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#6
I think Meta Knight should be used more often... He can be good... I would use him in tourneys but no one responded to my thread.
I hope MK gets buffs in the next patch. Like getting his spike back, if it was taken away from him.

The only change I want is a better fair, I wish he still had his Brawl fair (does 10% instead of 6% and auto cancels)
 
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#7
You don't want MK to have a lagless F-Air. That's exactly why Diddy and Sheik have incredibly silly neutral games where they're always positive on shield. Giving him THAT tool back would honestly make MK just as broken as his Brawl incarnation if not moreso if that's even possible. MK's flaws in this game are: light-weight + a predictable and punishable neutral game. Brawl F-Air would take away the punishable part and make him a character with no real flaws. You don't want his F-Air buffed. MK's perfect as is minus his D-Smash & F-Tilt still having bad hitboxes/visuals.

A proper "jab" in the form of a less laggy F-Tilt is about all he could ask for without becoming the new Sheik.

But anyway, let's keep the 1.0.6 hopes & dreams in the social thread. Once the patch has officially released, I'll throw up a 1.0.6 discussion thread to have all our findings in one place (I'll probably post it Monday so it's up before the patch).
 

Kaffei

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#8
You don't want MK to have a lagless F-Air. That's exactly why Diddy and Sheik have incredibly silly neutral games where they're always positive on shield. Giving him THAT tool back would honestly make MK just as broken as his Brawl incarnation if not moreso if that's even possible. MK's flaws in this game are: light-weight + a predictable and punishable neutral game. Brawl F-Air would take away the punishable part and make him a character with no real flaws. You don't want his F-Air buffed. MK's perfect as is minus his D-Smash & F-Tilt still having bad hitboxes/visuals.

A proper "jab" in the form of a less laggy F-Tilt is about all he could ask for without becoming the new Sheik.

But anyway, let's keep the 1.0.6 hopes & dreams in the social thread. Once the patch has officially released, I'll throw up a 1.0.6 discussion thread to have all our findings in one place (I'll probably post it Monday so it's up before the patch).


Alright, that's fair. But can it do more damage at least, for something that has so much lag it's really underwhelming (does 6% which is about the same as Sheik's fair but Sheik's fair auto cancels)

Maybe like 9%~10% or something :|
 
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Ulevo

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#9
You don't want MK to have a lagless F-Air. That's exactly why Diddy and Sheik have incredibly silly neutral games where they're always positive on shield. Giving him THAT tool back would honestly make MK just as broken as his Brawl incarnation if not moreso if that's even possible. MK's flaws in this game are: light-weight + a predictable and punishable neutral game. Brawl F-Air would take away the punishable part and make him a character with no real flaws. You don't want his F-Air buffed. MK's perfect as is minus his D-Smash & F-Tilt still having bad hitboxes/visuals.

A proper "jab" in the form of a less laggy F-Tilt is about all he could ask for without becoming the new Sheik.

But anyway, let's keep the 1.0.6 hopes & dreams in the social thread. Once the patch has officially released, I'll throw up a 1.0.6 discussion thread to have all our findings in one place (I'll probably post it Monday so it's up before the patch).
There were many, many, many reasons Meta Knight was silly outside of a lagless forward air, which he didn't have anyway. It was punishable on shield if spaced improperly, while Sheik's forward air is not. Meta Knight's Mach Tornado was incredibly stupid and out-prioritized almost everything, his range on everything was much better, he had planking mechanics, glide, air dodges with no penalty, a down smash that actually kills. The list goes on.

The reason Diddy Kong's fair is ridiculous is because of how long the hitbox is in addition to its attributes. I'd argue that next to his up air, it's the most overpowered attribute to the character specifically because of the hitbox size.

Sheik is just really good just by frame data. Her hitboxes are not atrociously hard to handle.

A Brawl forward air, purely on a basis of frame data, would make his neutral game less linear. But he still has to deal with the lack of sword reach, and it still at best would give him another option, not a better one. Dair camping was better than just relying on forward air in neutral even in Brawl, and I don't think it would suddenly change here even if he had a less punishing forward air.

Brawl forward air was 15 on landing with the option to auto cancel. In this game it is 20 with no option. I think keeping the 20 but allowing for auto cancels would be fine considering Meta Knights other limited options in neutral.
 
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#10
@ Ulevo Ulevo I'm well aware of what made Brawl MK. I was pointing out that Sm4sh MK would be comparable if he had Brawl F-Air on top of his massively improved combo game. His neutral game is his biggest weakness in this game and buffing that by giving him the approach-stuffer that was Brawl F-Air mitigates that his weakness to the point that he, once again, would have no real weaknesses.

But yeah, MATCH-UP DISCUSSION, not the Fantasy Smash League. Tag me in the social if you want to continue the conversation.
 

AyeYoDeji

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#12
@ Ulevo Ulevo I'm well aware of what made Brawl MK. I was pointing out that Sm4sh MK would be comparable if he had Brawl F-Air on top of his massively improved combo game. His neutral game is his biggest weakness in this game and buffing that by giving him the approach-stuffer that was Brawl F-Air mitigates that his weakness to the point that he, once again, would have no real weaknesses.

But yeah, MATCH-UP DISCUSSION, not the Fantasy Smash League. Tag me in the social if you want to continue the conversation.
Can you start a MK vs Megaman matchup thread?
 

Mario & Sonic Guy

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#13
Rosalina is now analyzing Meta Knight at her match-up analysis thread. If you have anything to contribute for the Rosalina vs. Meta Knight match-up, Meta Knight will be analyzed until the end of 4/20.

Just keep note that the match-up will be under Rosalina's perspective at her sub-forum.
 

ZTD | TECHnology

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#17
I'm very well versed in this MU and I think its even.

If people wanna discuss this one next I'm happy to share my experiences here.
 
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#19
The Mario Match-Up Thread is coming real soon. I've had a lot on my plate recently but I'm sorry for the delay.
 
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#21
@ Knife8193 Knife8193 Meta Knight has a very slight advantage over Sheik due to his ability to get out of Sheik's traps via multiple jumps (we can burn jumps safely against Sheik while other characters get heavily punished for having no jumps against Sheik), fast fall speed, and ability to bypass ledge-guarding with Cape which makes MK a lot harder for Sheik to KO than most other characters. He can also challenge Sheik's approach if she gets at all predictable and doesn't care at all about needle pressure with his 6 jumps + platforms. It's fairly even ground overall but MK does have an easier time landing a killing blow on Sheik than Sheik does on MK.

The 55:45 benchmark exists just to note very slight advantages like that; read them more as 50:50s with a sidenote rather than 60:40s. We originally had the ratio as 53:47 or something and I felt that's just kinda pointless all things considered. We're far from "beating" Sheik, it's still very even so skill will win in the end, but we have an easier time against Sheik than most of the cast does.
 

warionumbah2

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#22
atm this is how i see the MUs
:4sonic:40:60
:4sheik:50:50
:rosalina:60:40
:4diddy:40:60
:4ness:60:40
:4fox:60:40

:4luigi:50:50
:4zss:40:60
:4mario:50:50
:4falcon:40:60
:4rob:
50:50
:4yoshi:
40:60(doing him soon anyway)


'spamming up b and not get punished' makes me laugh all the time.
 
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Ulevo

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#23
@ warionumbah2 warionumbah2

Here is my interpretation of our match ups currently.

:4falcon: 5:5
:4diddy: 5:5
:4fox: 5:5 - 6:4
:4luigi: 5:5
:4mario: 5:5 - 6:4
:4olimar: 5:5 - 6:4
:4pikachu: 5:5
:4rob: 5:5 - 4:6
:rosalina: 5:5 - 6:4
:4sheik: 5:5
:4sonic: 4:6 - 5:5
:4villager: 4:6 - 5:5
:4wario: 5:5
:4yoshi: 4:6 - 5:5
:4zss: 5:5
:4ness: 5:5 - 6:4

Ones that I think are worth covering despite being less common:

:4darkpit:/:4pit:
:4drmario:
:4duckhunt:
:4greninja:
:4megaman:
:4lucario:
:4pacman:
:4peach:
 
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warionumbah2

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#24
I don't think :4drmario::4duckhunt: are worth covering and :4pacman: is non-existant no point doing a MU that no ones played.

Can't wait to read your explanation on why :4villager: has the advantage in the future.
 
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#25
If anyone at all isn't happy with any of our current MU ratios, post about it in the character's thread. Again, our MU threads are always open because characters and opinions change constantly with time. There's some MUs I'd like to go back to myself soon.

These are my personal MK MU ratios + tier list (alphabetical order within tiers):

A | Exceptional positive traits with no big flaws; can come out on top in almost any match-up
:4diddy: 50:50
:4fox: 50:50
:4mario: 50:50
:4luigi: 45:55

:4ness: 60:40
:rosalina: 60:40

:4sheik: 50:40
:4sonic: 40:60
:4zss: 50:50


A- | Extremely solid but one or two flaws keep these characters from A-tier
:4falcon: 55:45
:4metaknight: :yeahboi:::denzel:
:4pikachu: 50:50
:4rob: 50:50
:4wario2: 55:45

:4yoshi: 50:50


B | Competitively viable with no insurmountable match-ups but have notable flaws to work around
:4darkpit: 50:50
:4kirby: 45:55

:4greninja: 50:50
:4lucario: Ora:Aura (Aura makes this MU a nightmare to dumb-down to a ratio)
:4megaman: 60:40
:4pit: 50:50
:4villager: 60:40

B- | The back end of the viable characters; flaws and MUs are harder to work around but can be done
:4bowserjr: 55:45
:4duckhunt: 60:40

:4link: 55:45
:4mewtwo: 60:40

:4pacman: 60:40
:4peach: 55:45
:4robinm: 60:40

C | Too many flaws to be viable on their own but they are viable secondaries for specific match-ups
:4bowser: 50:50
:4dk: 50:50
:4drmario: 60:40

:4marth: 50:50
:4miibrawl: 60:40

:4gaw: 50:50
:4olimar: 60:40
:4shulk: 60:40

:4tlink: 55:45


D | The start of "Low-tier". More bad match-ups and flaws than positive traits. Again, viable counter-pick characters but there are always better options
:4falco: 60:40
:4ganondorf: 65:35
:4myfriends: 55:45

:4jigglypuff: 70:30
:4dedede: 55:45
:4littlemac: 70:30
:4lucina: 60:40

:4palutena: 70:30

D- | The D stands for "Don't do this to yourself."
:4charizard: 70:30
:4miigun: 60:40

:4samus: 60:40
:4zelda: 80:20

Wii-tier | From the Wii's hottest titles
:4miisword: :Who's ever even played this MU?
:4wiifit: 70:30
 
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Exdeath

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#27
@ Ulevo Ulevo I'm well aware of what made Brawl MK. I was pointing out that Sm4sh MK would be comparable if he had Brawl F-Air on top of his massively improved combo game. His neutral game is his biggest weakness in this game and buffing that by giving him the approach-stuffer that was Brawl F-Air mitigates that his weakness to the point that he, once again, would have no real weaknesses.

But yeah, MATCH-UP DISCUSSION, not the Fantasy Smash League. Tag me in the social if you want to continue the conversation.
MK's Fair still wouldn't stuff anything other than dash grab.
 

CatcherAndTheRai

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#28
Please explain to me how MK beats Olimar?
I don't think that he easily beats Olimar but I believe we have a combo to get rid of pikmin(U-Throw > D-tilt) all pikmin except purple(needs an Fsmash i believe.)

That just helps with MKs neutral against Olimar i guess and Im not even sure if that still exists. But, that little trick definately makes the match ups much easier since we have an easy way of getting rid of the pikmin.
 

Myran

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#29
I don't think that he easily beats Olimar but I believe we have a combo to get rid of pikmin(U-Throw > D-tilt) all pikmin except purple(needs an Fsmash i believe.)

That just helps with MKs neutral against Olimar i guess and Im not even sure if that still exists. But, that little trick definately makes the match ups much easier since we have an easy way of getting rid of the pikmin.
You'd have to grab me to do that. Most characters get a lot of grabs anyway. The thing is how can you get past a wall of constant projectiles? I have ridiculous pivot grab range with whites as well. 2 purples is harder to fight through than you'd think.
 

ZTD | TECHnology

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#30
I have a very good Olimar in my state (Coco) and after playing him and the other Olimar multiple times in tournaments, I'm pretty convinced its dead even. We can do awful things to Olimar once we get in.

Key words: Once we get in.
 
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Myran

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#31
I have a very good Olimar in my state (Coco) and after playing him and the other Olimar multiple times in tournaments, I'm pretty convinced its dead even. We can do awful things to Olimar once we get in.

Key words: Once we get in.
Sounds like most characters. Olimar has poor landing options, meh frame data, and no priority on Pikmin. Like you said getting in is key, and that is where I'd say the MU shifts to Olimars favor.
 

ZTD | TECHnology

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#32
Since our neutral and approach game is weak and our punish game is really good, this MU kind shifts between really exaggerated advantage and disadvantage states for both sides because Olimar's neutral and zoning game is in general really effective. I have two stocked Coco and got steamrolled right back sometimes lol.
 
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Myran

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#33
Since our neutral and approach game is weak and our punish game is really good, this MU kind shifts between really exaggerated advantage and disadvantage states for both sides. I have two stocked Coco and got steamrolled right back sometimes lol.
Yeah that sounds about right, haha. Olimar is one of those characters where when he's on point it seems really one sided, but when someone gets in and has a feel for the Olimars movement they can eat him up.

I'd say based off of the tools the character has though that it would be in Olimars favor.
 
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#34
Please explain to me how MK beats Olimar?
I believe it's a slight advantage in MK's favor due to MK's defensive and punishing options being particularly nasty for Olimar.

The defensive side is similar to Brawl: MK has 6 jumps & a teleport to run away from Olimar for as long as he wants and N-Air removes any Pikmin that do attach. This is particularly notable on stages with high or off-stage platforms such as Smashville, T&C, Duck Hunt, Delfino, and Kongo. Time-outs shouldn't be uncommon in this MU.

An additional defensive perk to MK in this MU is that same 6 jumps + teleport on top of MK's increased Air-Speed compared to Brawl ensures MK never has to worry about Olimar Up-Smash unless he's recovering from ledge.

On the offensive side, MK has some of game's best tools for punishing whiffed moves and a very solid advantage-state but getting in does require Olimar to whiff something but, knowing Olimar's frame data, it's not particularly difficult; spacing and movement is key. When we do land a Dash Attack or Dash Grab, we combo then go for the juggle where Olimar's difficulty to land helps MK a lot.

MK also has the unique ability to kill all of the Pikmin in Olimar's line off an Up-Throw. Should Olimar ever get double Purples or a Blue when we're at throw KO range, we can remove them from play. Olimar does have time to pluck more Pikmin while we're killing them if he's very quick about it and doesn't hesitate but he gets knock-backed back too far to save his old Pikmin.

Additionally, Olimar's recovery is real bad in this MU. At 80-90%, MK B-Air flat-out KOs Olimar off-stage.

The reasons this MU is still close from the Olimar side are Olimar's superior spacing and zoning tools, purple priority, KO throws with Blue Pikmin, and his styling space suit. Olimar dominates the pace of the match as he can advance his defensive wall and push MK to the ledge or into the air where is punish game in the weakest. He also forces a reaction with Pikmin Toss which tells MK where he is and is not allowed to be on the ground.

If Olimar plays safe, so will MK. If Olimar plays aggressively, so will MK. That's what I mean by Olimar dominating the pace. If an MK doesn't respect that, he will lose. But if that MK plays Olimar's game, they'll find that Olimar needs MK to run into his moves to get much going and that's where MK's defensive tools shine through; MK's great at approaching most characters but, in MUs that call for it, he's great at running away as well and punishing attempts to chase him.

Olimar wins so long as he perfectly boxes MK out but the MU shifts far too hard in MK's favor when he sneaks in a move and gets stage control to call it even; Olimar's punishes are nowhere near as severe as MK's and I'll happily trade getting hit 3 times before getting one Dash Attack because MK can make-up that damage and more with stage control. But again, overall, I think it's a slight advantage towards MK.


All that said, the only Olimar I have tournament experience with are Freebeast and Nom but I'm sure not many other Olimar have solid MK experience either.
 

Myran

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#35
Olimar's punishes are nowhere near as severe as MK's and I'll happily trade getting hit 3 times before getting one Dash Attack because MK can make-up that damage and more with stage control.
My purple fsmash will kill earlier than any of your smashes. You'd be surprised how much damage I can get off one punish as well. I've got 70% off one dthrow and 2 uairs, because I had Pikmin attached right before I got the throw.

Furthermore you don't seem to take into account the extra frames of hitlag you stick yourself in when you nair a Pikmin off. If I'm close enough to you or I see an opening once you hit a Pikmin that gives me more than enough frames to get a punish. My recovery is pretty solid too. Sure you can bair me, but if I go low enough and ride the wall of the stage the more likely the punish will set me up to stage tech in which I recover for free more times than not. Olimar can wrack up damage faster, and throw out kill moves easier.

Plus once I get the percent lead, which I can do from afar, you have to come to me. This allows me to setup my wall, and that is where the MU shifts to my favor.
 
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ItoI6

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#40
yeah but the difference between rich brown and imhip, and random sheik players is that those two are the best of their character on the west coast. i mean i guess you could say theyre bad at the matchup but if you arent going to go off results then whats the point i mean you can theory craft all day about your characters strengths and make any character sound op
 
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