Melee Techniques Being Left out of Brawl

[TheBuzzSaw]

They should take out recovering. That gives players unfair advantages, especially if they have practiced it.

 

[Junpappy]

Did you never consider the fact that maybe the users of advanced tactics (or people I like to call cheaters) like playing each other using advanced tactics and like seeing how well they can play by using those advanced tactics? Why should their way of playing be completely removed just so you don't have to learn the advanced tactics?

If you actually took the time to practice the advanced tactics, you would enjoy the game on a level you never knew existed.

 

[Dogenzaka]

Just because you choose not to learn and apply it doesn't mean it's unfair.

It does make it unfair to the majority of the Smash community when others exploit these altruistic techniques and can't play unless they do it. No matter what crap you say, NO ONE should be FORCED to learn these techniques if they want to play with someone. Period. End of.

They should take out recovering. That gives players unfair advantages, especially if they have practiced it.

That's a legit technique in the manual.

You suck at analogies.

like playing each other using advanced tactics and like seeing how well they can play by using those advanced tactics?

I already touched on that subject and noted that I don't care about that and that doesn't bother me.
It's when it involves people who don't know these tactics wherein lies the problem.

 

[spikehappy07]

This is one of the most ridiculous arguments on this forum. Guys, just take it to the debate hall. This place is for discussion, not *****in'.

 

[Dogenzaka]

This is one of the most ridiculous arguments on this forum. Guys, just take it to the debate hall. This place is for discussion, not *****in'.

de·bate /dɪˈbeɪt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[di-beyt] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation noun, verb, -bat·ed, -bat·ing.
–noun
1. a discussion, as of a public question in an assembly, involving opposing viewpoints: a debate in the Senate on farm price supports.
2. a formal contest in which the affirmative and negative sides of a proposition are advocated by opposing speakers.

 

[sugarpoultry]

That's a legit technique in the manual.

You suck at analogies.

Wow you totally missed that one. It wasn't an analogy and he's pointing out that if you guys think L-Canceling (programmed into the game) is unfair and cheap, then why isn't returning?? (also programmed into the game).

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

It does make it unfair to the majority of the Smash community when others exploit these altruistic techniques and can't play unless they do it. No matter what crap you say, NO ONE should be FORCED to learn these techniques if they want to play with someone. Period. End of.

They are only altruistic in your mind (and your little community's). You are right. No matter what crap I say, no one should be forced to learn these techniques if they want to play with someone. And you know what? NO ONE IS FORCED TO LEARN THESE TECHNIQUES! Did I say that they had to learn them? I don't recall. You'll have to quote me on that one. Regardless, I am not making anyone do anything. However, if they intend on beating me then they might wanna look into it.

 

[Anther]

Dogenzaka. There are techniques in everything you're forced to learn if you want to be able to compete.... Not wanting to have to devote the time or not being able to devote the time to learn them isn't really the fault of the community.
Dunno, just seems like you're arguing against having to learn things that aren't explicit in the manual. TopSpin wasn't in tennis manuals when it was unveiled.

 

[Junpappy]

I already touched on that subject and noted that I don't care about that and that doesn't bother me.
It's when it involves people who don't know these tactics wherein lies the problem.

If player A knows advanced techs, and player B doesn't know advanced techs, obviously player A would be expected to win. If both players agree not to use advanced techs, what would happen? Player A would still win, because even without his advanced techs, practicing them and playing in tournaments has made player A transcend the level that casuals will never transcend until playing with experienced players instead of just their friends. So in the end, it doesn't change the outcome for player B, because he only plays the game casually, and therefore can't and rightfully shouldn't expect to stand a chance against player A, who plays the game on a more frequent basis. Removing the advanced techs only hurts people when player A runs into player C, and both know the advanced techs and like using the advanced techs.

 

[Vijin]

It does make it unfair to the majority of the Smash community when others exploit these altruistic techniques and can't play unless they do it. No matter what crap you say, NO ONE should be FORCED to learn these techniques if they want to play with someone. Period. End of.

I never said they should be forced. Like you said earlier, we're the MINORITY. You're drasticly exaggerating how many casuals are going to randomly run into a pro player (whether it be melee or Brawl online) and lose because of L canceling and wavedashing.

 

[Anther]

If player A knows advanced techs, and player B doesn't know advanced techs, obviously player A would be expected to win. If both players agree not to use advanced techs, what would happen? Player A would still win, because even without his advanced techs, practicing them and playing in tournaments has made player A transcend the level that casuals will never transcend until playing with experienced players instead of just their friends. So in the end, it doesn't change the outcome for player B, because he only plays the game casually, and therefore can't and rightfully shouldn't expect to stand a chance against player A, who plays the game on a more frequent basis. Removing the advanced techs only hurts people when player A runs into player C, and both know the advanced techs and like using the advanced techs.

That's kind of wrong. Neither are hurt, the game just potentially loses some depth, as long as the techniques are options.

 

[Dogenzaka]

(and your huge community's)

Fix'd.

NO ONE IS FORCED TO LEARN THESE TECHNIQUES! Did I say that they had to learn them? I don't recall.

They have to if they want to play evenly with someone like you or me.

If player A knows advanced techs, and player B doesn't know advanced techs, obviously player A would be expected to win. If both players agree not to use advanced techs, what would happen? Player A would still win, because even without his advanced techs

Obviously. But this thread isn't about who would win, it's about why they should or shouldn't be out.

But let's change the scenario.

Player A and B are twin brothers who play the game together and have the same amount of experience and are easily advanced. One day one of them learns to wavedash and L-cancel. Who has the advantage?

You're drasticly exaggerating how many casuals are going to randomly run into a pro player

It's not when you consider how many times people run into snakers online in Mario Kart DS.

 

[Ixninjax]

That's a legit technique in the manual.

You suck at analogies.

Teching when you hit the floor isn't in the manual, is that cheap and unintended? The thing is you really have no idea how the developers feel about how we play, but i'll bet that whatever makes us happy probably makes them happy as well. Why do you think smash bros is so customizable? Because they want us to play the way that makes us the most happy, they NEVER said the game is meant to be played in a certain way. But ppl still assume such non-sense. If the game was meant to be played a certain way, wouldn't they mention that in the manual? lolz.

 

[Junpappy]

Dogenzaka, I just realized who you are. You're Mrs. Broflovski from southpark (Kyle's mom)

 

[Dogenzaka]

Teching when you hit the floor isn't in the manual

Isn't it when you press A or something when you hit the floor to recover from a fall?

That's a BUTTON PRESS. People don't unintentionally assign a button to a command.

The thing is you really have no idea how the developers feel about how we play, but i'll bet that whatever makes us happy probably makes them happy as well. Why do you think smash bros is so customizable?

It's customizable but why do you think these techniques are out?

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

To be honest, Dogenzaka, you are the minority. Every casual smasher I play either makes fun of me for spending too much time smashing and being way too good (an understandable insult), or they see the possibilities and become eager to learn. You believe you speak for the rest of the smashers in the world, but I strongly doubt they all feel the same way you do. As I mentioned in a previous post, you represent this weird borderline community of smashers who are competitive but unwilling to adapt. That community is smaller than the "cheating" community.

 

[Vijin]

Fix'd.




Player A and B are twin brothers who play the game together and have the same amount of experience and are easily advanced. One day one of them learns to wavedash and L-cancel. Who has the advantage?

Nobody.
You don't learn how to wavedash and suddenly become some superb player. So you can wavedash, so what? It doesn't help much if you wavedash right into your opponents attack.

 

[Dogenzaka]

You believe you speak for the rest of the smashers in the world

Not really. I don't speak in terms of their opinion for them, but I speak for their defense.

To be honest, the people who CAN'T use these techniques, are the majority. So you're right, I'm the minority, because I can use them.

As I mentioned in a previous post, you represent this weird borderline community of smashers who are competitive but unwilling to adapt.

Or unable? Or have lives and can't spend time perfecting it with every character?

Nobody.

Wrong answer. The person who can wavedash and L-cancel does, because he's faster, and cancels out natural lag.

You don't learn how to wavedash and suddenly become some superb player. So you can wavedash, so what? It doesn't help much if you wavedash right into your opponents attack.

Never said that. However, he has the advantage. They both have the same skill level, only one is able to wavedash and L-cancel, so he's faster, and nimbler. That's called an advantage.

 

[sugarpoultry]

Like I said before, tournaments make you better. Not wavedashing. If you haven't been to a real tournament, you really have no say in how the game should be played or not.

Wrong answer. The person who can wavedash and L-cancel does, because he's faster, and cancels out natural lag.

Wow, that sounds like a really good gaming technique!!!!! Good thing I can already do it, use them well, and I'm on my way to a tourney this weekend.

 

[Anther]

Player A and B are twin brothers who play the game together and have the same amount of experience and are easily advanced. One day one of them learns to wavedash and L-cancel. Who has the advantage?

I'm sure if Player A learned how to edgehog and chaingrab while player b learned wavedash and L-cancel, we'd be hard pressed to know who has the advantage.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Wavedashing consists of the following:

(1) -- jumping -- not a glitch
(2) -- air dodging -- not a glitch
(3) -- sliding upon contact with the ground -- not a glitch

#3 is what seems to rub you the wrong way. The programs put those physics into the game. It's not an accident that characters slide upon coming in contact with the ground. Why do you think different characters have different levels of friction? Under that logic, most combos are glitches since they were never intended. Did the creators intend Fox's up-throw to up-smash? If so, how do you know? If not, should it be illegal? One of my favorite Link combos is jab then down-smash. Is that a glitch? It is an unintended combination of non-glitches to form a glitch according to your mode of thinking.

Wavedashing is not a glitch. Get over yourself!

 

[Dogenzaka]

Like I said before, tournaments make you better. Not wavedashing. If you haven't been to a real tournament, you really have no say in how the game should be played or not.

I'm not talking about who's FCKING BETTER. I'M TALKING ABOUT THE ADVANTAGE PEOPLE RECEIVE FROM THESE TECHNIQUES.

(1) -- jumping -- not a glitch
(2) -- air dodging -- not a glitch
(3) -- sliding upon contact with the ground -- not a glitch

True, L-canceling is however.

Perhaps glitch is a strong word. I like cheapass techniques better.

 

[Junpappy]

To be honest, the people who CAN'T use these techniques, are the majority. So you're right, I'm the minority, because I can use them.

You're the minority because you're part of the group that actually wants wavedashing and l-canceling taken out of the game. The majority of people don't know what a wavedash even is, so can't possibly want them to remove it from Brawl.

Or unable? Or have lives and can't spend time perfecting it with every character?

Please try to realize that learning how to wavedash and l-cancel doesn't take 8 hours a day of practice ...ok?

 

[Anther]

Wavedashing consists of the following:

(1) -- jumping -- not a glitch
(2) -- air dodging -- not a glitch
(3) -- sliding upon contact with the ground -- not a glitch

#3 is what seems to rub you the wrong way. The programs put those physics into the game. It's not an accident that characters slide upon coming in contact with the ground. Why do you think the combining of all three constitutes a glitch? Under that logic, most combos are glitches since they were never intended. Did the creators intend Fox's up-throw to up-smash? If so, how do you know? If not, should it be illegal? One of my favorite Link combos is jab then down-smash. Is that a glitch? It is an unintended combination of non-glitches to form a glitch according to your mode of thinking.

Wavedashing is not a glitch. Get over yourself!

That's very true. Wavedash is a lot more logically in the game as opposed to l-cancelling, which was them making something that seemed to be a glitch in the first game a controlled technique...

 

[sugarpoultry]

I'm not talking about who's FCKING BETTER. I'M TALKING ABOUT THE ADVANTAGE PEOPLE RECEIVE FROM THESE TECHNIQUES.

And those happen to be the best players. What's your point? Getting beat too much?

True, L-canceling is however.

Perhaps glitch is a strong word. I like cheapass techniques better.

And yeah, its not in Brawl anymore. So yay for you, you got your way. Too bad for you its perfectly legal in Melee.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

L-canceling is not a glitch either. It was recognized from Smash 64 and thus modified into Melee. It being removed in Brawl has nothing to do with whether it is considered a glitch. It was clearly intended to be there. Sure, they are taking it out in Brawl, so that supports your "I hate it because it's cheap" theory, but it is not a glitch no matter what you say.

And why are you against players having an advantage? Why are you against people getting better at the game? We're sorry people have lives and don't have time to learn advanced techniques. Why should we be denied the depth of the game to make them happy? If you total the hours put in by the competitive community, suddenly they become the minority. One competitive smasher easily puts in the hours to cover 1000 casual smashers. I know I have. Why on earth should we sink to their level? It is their choice to ascend to ours.

 

[Anther]

Dogenzaka, I know you're being bombarded, but still. Learning to wavedash and L-cancel, which are staple moves on every character, doesn't give an immediate advantage.

 

[Dogenzaka]

I'm sure if Player A learned how to edgehog and chaingrab while player b learned wavedash and L-cancel, we'd be hard pressed to know who has the advantage.

The answer is they both have advantages, it's just impossible to tell who has the most advantage.

Please try to realize that learning how to wavedash and l-cancel doesn't take 8 hours a day of practice ...ok?

It requires practice, however, and some people earn a living through jobs and not smash bros. tournaments, and for some, it IS hard to pull off. It took me a few weeks to perfect wavedashing. Most people lack that time.

You're the minority because you're part of the group that actually wants wavedashing and l-canceling taken out of the game.

How does that make me the minority? You only THINK it's the minority because the majority of people at this ridiculous forum want it IN.

The majority of people don't know what a wavedash even is, so can't possibly want them to remove it from Brawl.

If I went up to someone and they asked me what it was and I replied "It's when someone does a fast button combination and takes advantage of the games physics system to make them unnaturally fast and cancel out natural lag set into the game" they'd say "well that's cheap!!!"

I say this because I've done it before and people responded that way lol.

And those happen to be the best players. What's your point? Getting beat too much?

Oh come off the insults. I'm getting angry and frustrated with the unbased insults. How does that have anything to do with my skill?

The best players are the best because of skill, not because of the techniques. People said it themselves. Therefore, there's no logical reason why these techniques should be in the game anyway. They're unnecessary.

And those happen to be the best players. What's your point? Getting beat too much?

But it technically does, considering, it makes you faster and cancel out lag. Speed is a big factor in tournaments.

It was clearly intended to be there.

How? Chances are Nintendo didn't even know this thing existed.

 

[Vijin]

Wrong answer. The person who can wavedash and L-cancel does, because he's faster, and cancels out natural lag.

Like I said earlier, just because you know how to wavedash doesn't mean you know how to use it. Somebody who just learned how to wavedash isn't going to automatically know the spacing in which he has to wavedash backwards or forward. Also, ,missed L-cancels will result in shield grabs.

Try again.

 

[Anther]

L-canceling is not a glitch either. It was recognized from Smash 64 and thus modified into Melee. It being removed in Brawl has nothing to do with whether it is considered a glitch. It was clearly intended to be there. Sure, they are taking it out in Brawl, so that supports your "I hate it because it's cheap" theory, but it is not a glitch no matter what you say.

And why are you against players having an advantage? Why are you against people getting better at the game? We're sorry people have lives and don't have time to learn advanced techniques. Why should we be denied the depth of the game to make them happy? If you total the hours put in by the competitive community, suddenly they become the minority. One competitive smasher easily puts in the hours to cover 1000 casual smashers. I know I have. Why on earth should we sink to their level? It is their choice to ascend to ours.

I like that Buzz, He'll argue that the other people are spending more money on the game though. Which is also true. He's not going with the same argument that you're going with =].

 

[Goldkirby]

Why isn't this thread closed yet? It's degenerated into a stupid flame war, with dog boy here flame baiting in a more subtle way then the normal trolls who post on this board.

dog, the way you have structured your language just blatantly calling people's OPINIONS wrong IS flame baiting, and hopefully I can get this thread closed asap. I'm fine with you thinking l-canceling and wavedashing is cheap, but personally, I don't think so. It's all a matter of OPINION. You are not wrong, and neither am I. I just choose to play the game to it's maximum potential. You choose not too with your friends, claiming that it is honorable. That's fine with me, but I'd rather win while being called cheap then play with so called "honor". In my opinion, playing honorably is not fun.

 

[sugarpoultry]

The best players are the best because of skill, not because of the techniques.

O_O It goes both ways! That was a poor argument...

 

[Dogenzaka]

with dog boy here flame baiting in a more subtle way then the normal trolls who post on this board.

I am not flame baiting ANYWHERE. I am discussing. I haven't insulted anyone, or personally attacked, or flamed anyone. If people decide to start a flame war, it's from their lack of self-control. Your argument is moot.

dog, the way you have structured your language just blatantly calling people's OPINIONS wrong IS flame baiting, and hopefully I can get this thread closed asap.

You can discuss with us or leave. We're having a fine discussion. There's no such thing as "flame baiting" or you can turn anything into "flame bait". This thread doesn't concern you.

but I'd rather win while being called cheap then play with so called "honor". In my opinion, playing honorably is not fun.

I never mentioned honor.

People can discuss without babies going "OMG A DISCUSSION CLOSE TEH THREAD"

O_O It goes both ways! That was a poor argument...

What do you mean?

Like I said earlier, just because you know how to wavedash doesn't mean you know how to use it.

My example was assuming he was able to pull them off. Ugh.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

How? Chances are Nintendo didn't even know this thing existed.

The lag reduced is different from move to move. How is that an accident?

 

[Anther]

The answer is they both have advantages, it's just impossible to tell who has the most advantage.


The best players are the best because of skill, not because of the techniques. People said it themselves. Therefore, there's no logical reason why these techniques should be in the game anyway. They're unnecessary.

The game's more fun because there are a lot of techniques in tournaments. You can say the extra techniques make it less fun for casuals, but what's a casual player doing trying to win a tournament anyway o_O?
There are techniques and counters, and the game advances as such, as more and more are developed... it's not going to be stopped o_O. The game's fluid with lots of variables, thus fun.

If I went up to someone and they asked me what it was and I replied "It's when someone does a fast button combination and takes advantage of the games physics system to make them unnaturally fast and cancel out natural lag set into the game" they'd say "well that's cheap!!!"

I say this because I've done it before and people responded that way lol.

If I described anything in a negative sense in the way you are to people that have no idea what's going on, they're naturally going to dislike it.

 

[Mama]

I'm not talking about who's FCKING BETTER. I'M TALKING ABOUT THE ADVANTAGE PEOPLE RECEIVE FROM THESE TECHNIQUES.



True, L-canceling is however.

Perhaps glitch is a strong word. I like cheapass techniques better.

And that sir is why you fail and continue to fail. Like it or not L-canceling has been part of Smash since day one (on the 64). Honestly how is it cheap if everyone can take advantage of it? All you have to do is press L before you hit the ground after an aerial. Thats it. Its the timing that takes practice. You refuse to practice and because of that everything else is cheap to you because you want to suck.

And basically you're saying that you want to take away the competitive aspect of the game (simply because you choose not to learn anything). As long as there is competition there will be people who are just better because they're dedicated. Thats why we turned Melee into what it is. Thats how tournaments evolved to the standards they now have.

You say that you want the game to be "played how Sakurai intended" when thats an ignorant and idiotic statement. Without people changing up the way things are done then there would be little point in competing in the first place and everyone would just be the same old boring person. Its against human nature to ask that everyone play Brawl the same. There will always be people who learn that certain thigns work differently and will change things up by innovating. But you fail to see this and its sad.

By the way the majority of the smash community does not even know about the advacned techniques. When they do learn about them (like I did) they can either choose to follow your way as a failure or they can decide to expand their way of play. If something is equally available to all then you tell me how thats cheap?

 

[Dogenzaka]

The lag reduced is different from move to move. How is that an accident?

Perhaps it was an accident in SSB64. But because L-canceling was near unheard of back then, they never realized the mistake they made, and therefore never bothered to fix something they never knew was broken?

Just a thought.

If I described anything in a negative sense in the way you are to people that have no idea what's going on, they're naturally going to dislike it.

But it is true :/

The game's more fun because there are a lot of techniques in tournaments.

Of course with people who can pull them off, but if you throw someone who knows these techniques with others who don't, it becomes frustrating to the others.

And that sir is why you fail and continue to fail.

You've been reported a third time. Enjoy your ban.

Honestly how is it cheap if everyone can take advantage of it?

Because your logic is "EVERYONE HAS TO LEARN IT IF THEY WANT TO PLAY".

You refuse to practice and because of that everything else is cheap to you because you want to suck.

You assume I can't do it lol.

 

[Mama]

I'm doing my part to try and get this thread closed as well hehe. Hurting poor lil ol dogs feelings so that he reports to the mobs and subsequently gets this silly thread closed.

I don't need to flame to get my point across. Logic is better at pwning (pronounced own with a p not pawn for me) than flaming is. And yes Dog you are flame baiting.

 

[Junpappy]

There's still some debate left in this thread, although I'm sure it will be closed sometime this morning.

If I went up to someone and they asked me what it was and I replied "It's when someone does a fast button combination and takes advantage of the games physics system to make them unnaturally fast and cancel out natural lag set into the game" they'd say "well that's cheap!!!"

If you explain it that way, then yes, you would get your desired answer from that person. If they were to hear the explanation from two different people, one who is pro-wavedashing and one who was anti-wavedashing, what makes you so sure that they would still call it cheap?

 

[Dogenzaka]

I'm doing my part to try and get this thread closed as well hehe.

Why? Have I flamed you at all like you flamed me?
Find something better to do. It's a discussion which you choose to pollute with insults and flaming.

There's still some debate left in this thread, although I'm sure it will be closed sometime this morning.

Probably. The internet lacks justice nowadays.

If you explain it that way, then yes, you would get your desired answer from that person. If they were to hear the explanation from two different people, one who is pro-wavedashing and one who was anti-wavedashing, what makes you so sure that they would still call it cheap?

I'm not sure. However, I don't know anyone that knows wavedashing in real life. That's how rare it is.

I don't need to flame to get my point across.

But you do it anyway.

And yes Dog you are flame baiting.

How?

It's not my fault people lack self control in discussions.