Social Melee Social Thread and stuff

[Folly]

What if tilting the stick was all you need to do to wavedash? Would that remove depth?

If you could still do everything you could do now, not at all. Though in theory that sounds like it just makes it very inconvenient, how would you move in midair?

I don't think depth has one single definition. There's also the technical/execution side of the game versus the gameplay itself.

Think about pool. In many cases, using a bridge to guide your aim with the cue makes executing an accurate shot much easier. But in the end, a shot is a shot, whether you steady the stick yourself or the bridge does. Just like an L-cancel is an L-cancel, whether you do it or the game does it for you. But wouldn't using the bridge for every shot remove SOME depth from the game (pool)?

Bridges lower the threshold of skill required to play, yeah, bridges are crutches, and they arguably do detract from pool but as far as the amount of options you're presented in pool they don't change much.

I don't think you even understand your own made up definition of depth. Your argument objectively makes no sense.

L-cancelling does open up a lot more options, offensively by allowing you to act quicker after aerial hits to combos and defensively by making shield pressure safer.

No, for l cancelling to give any sort of depth to the game according to my definition there would need to be several difference scenarios in which it is applicable, but you're forced to use L cancelling in the exact same way in the same instances every single time to achieve the exact same result, to reduce your landing lag. All those things you listed are merely a biproduct of having little landing lag, none of these would be affected we if just had little landing lag without L cancelling. That's not depth.

It separates the good players from the casual players. That pretty much is a text book definition of depth in a fighting game.

Really give up on this man, consider the overwhelming majority that disagrees with you objectively here. It's pretty obvious and I'm almost positive your mind will change once you actually play this game long enough. I've had similar conversations with players new to competitive Melee about game mechanics, their minds almost always change when they get experienced.

Okay. Me getting better isn't going to make my objection to the mechanic go away, I'm positive. I mean, it'll get more tolerable, I love lots of games that have some weird design in them, but it won't go away. I still see nothing I have said here as wrong.

 

[gmBottles]

L cancelling adds depth through execution. Some like it, some don't. It is still depth regardless.

 

[Dolla Pills]

What if I just pushed a button on the back of the controller and it 0-deathed my opponent? I could've done that myself but the button just makes it easier therefore having it wouldn't remove depth.

 

[-ACE-]

I still see nothing I have said here as wrong

Your definition of depth is just flawed.

 

[Folly]

New What if I just pushed a button on the back of the controller and it 0-deathed my opponent? I could've done that myself but the button just makes it easier therefore having it wouldn't remove depth.

That eliminates the need for you to do anything else, regardless of your other options. If you have no need for 99% of the things you can do, it's not a very deep game, is it?

 

[Crooked Crow]

80% of your posts on this website is you complaining about our game. Shod off and go play Bawrl if you want, you're a literal nobody, do you think we care?

 

[gmBottles]

If you're gonna complain about the game, that's fine. Criticism is a good thing. However, you should make your own thread for this, and try to understand people's opinions about it while also considering your own, instead of hijacking the social.

I imagine that if we jumped into the Smash 4 social and started berating people about their game, people wouldn't be too happy about it.

 

[Folly]

If you're gonna complain about the game, that's fine. Criticism is a good thing. However, you should make your own thread for this, and try to understand people's opinions about it while also considering your own, instead of hijacking the social.

I imagine that if we jumped into the Smash 4 social and started berating people about their game, people wouldn't be too happy about it.

I considered it, but I'm not quite sure if such a topic warrants it's own thread. This seems like the closest to a Melee general thread there is. And besides, if the reactions to what I have to say are going to be similar to other posts in here, I don't think I want that. Half the posts responding to me have been civil and the other half are no good.

 

[Dr.Peabody]

Free 21" crt TV, good working order, for anyone who wants it in the Kansas City area. I'm not using it and don't really have room for it.

 

[gmBottles]

I considered it, but I'm not quite sure if such a topic warrants it's own thread. This seems like the closest to a Melee general thread there is. And besides, if the reactions to what I have to say are going to be similar to other posts in here, I don't think I want that. Half the posts responding to me have been civil and the other half are no good.

"I didn't get the reaction that I wanted when I came into their social and criticized their game of choice without having proper reasoning that it is a bad feature"

Idk what you expected, but your ignorance is showing. It could have easily had it's own thread, could've been something like "What makes L Cancelling a good feature" or "How does L Cancelling add depth?"

 

[Folly]

"I didn't get the reaction that I wanted when I came into their social and criticized their game of choice without having proper reasoning that it is a bad feature"

Idk what you expected, but your ignorance is showing. It could have easily had it's own thread, could've been something like "What makes L Cancelling a good feature" or "How does L Cancelling add depth?"

No, some posts are just flat out bad posts, some have just been disrespectful. It doesn't matter whether or not you think I have any good points or not, a bad response is a bad response.

 

[gmBottles]

No, some posts are just flat out bad posts, some have just been disrespectful. It doesn't matter whether or not you think I have any good points or not, a bad response is a bad response.

I've only seen one response that was disrespectful, the rest were just disagreements and explanations.

 

[gmBottles]

This brings negativity to this thread, let's just talk about good things.

How about that Melee, folks? Good **** huh?

 

[Plunder]

Either way it doesn't really matter.

I'm not exaggerating or being hyperbolic with what I said earlier. You really will think your posts here are comical after you play melee for more than a few more months.

L cancelling becomes second nature, muscle memory, something you can sub consciously and do without thought. Much like breathing or blinking. It will become such a non issue that you won't even remember how you had such an odd stance about it's supposed depth. It's sort of like someone playing drumset for week and then concluding that its too hard to coordinate feet with hands and saying having to play with both arms and feet doesn't add any depth to the instrument.

My advice would be to spend more time practicing playing with other good Melee players for a while before posting about the games mechanics. You're being premature here and you don't realize you keep beating a dead horse, and really the horse was never a problem to start with.

 

[Crooked Crow]

I've only seen one response that was disrespectful, the rest were just disagreements and explanations.

Because trying to logically explain their lack of understanding, while providing sufficient reasoning and proof; clearly worked so well.

 

[Dolla Pills]

This brings negativity to this thread, let's just talk about good things.

How about that Melee, folks? Good **** huh?

Melee killed my son

 

[gmBottles]

Melee killed my son

Well obviously he didn't know the MU, he deserved it.

 

[Synnett]

Pichu should've been top tier so everyone would have had a character crisis.

 

[Folly]

Either way it doesn't really matter.

I'm not exaggerating or being hyperbolic with what I said earlier. You really will think your posts here are comical after you play melee for more than a few more months.

L cancelling becomes second nature, muscle memory, something you can sub consciously and do without thought. Much like breathing or blinking. It will become such a non issue that you won't even remember how you had such an odd stance about it's supposed depth. It's sort of like someone playing drumset for week and then concluding that its too hard to coordinate feet with hands and saying having to play with both arms and feet doesn't add any depth to the instrument.

My advice would be to spend more time practicing playing with other good Melee players for a while before posting about the games mechanics. You're being premature here and you don't realize you keep beating a dead horse, and really the horse was never a problem to start with.

That still has no impact on the mechanic's design. You can get used to any game with bizarre controls or game mechanics, and that doesn't make questionable design go away. I haven't gotten anything aside from "it adds skill". And while it does make high-level Melee more impressive to watch, there doesn't seem to be any strategic depth to it, it's not an extra option. If you keep getting hung up on "you just need to play more" then I'm afraid you're not understanding my point.

 

[Crooked Crow]

That still has no impact on the mechanic's design. You can get used to any game with bizarre controls or game mechanics, and that doesn't make questionable design go away. I haven't gotten anything aside from "it adds skill". And while it does make high-level Melee more impressive to watch, there doesn't seem to be any strategic depth to it, it's not an extra option. If you keep getting hung up on "you just need to play more" then I'm afraid you're not understanding my point.

How is it questionable game design? In all the blabbering and blithering you've done, I still haven't seen that. And yes, you need to play more to really understand the flow and feel of an engine. And yes, that goes for every single game.

If you keep getting hung up on "you just need to play more" then I'm afraid you're not understanding my point

But you do... otherwise all of this would appear to be quite silly. That's our point. Melee is regarded as the most competitively viable Smash game. You, some random person with a join date of August 2016, have better knowledge than people who have dissected it at top level? People who gave us frame data, tournaments to attend, and who make money off this game?

It's not often people irk me, but you are really, really, dense. People have literally told you everything you're trying to ask and have disproved everything you're trying to imply.

 

[Folly]

How is it questionable game design? In all the blabbering and blithering you've done, I still haven't seen that. And yes, you need to play more to really understand the flow and feel of an engine. And yes, that goes for every single game.



But you do... otherwise all of this would appear to be quite silly. That's our point. Melee is regarded as the most competitively viable Smash game. You, some random person with a join date of August 2016, have better knowledge than people who have dissected it at top level? People who gave us frame data, tournaments to attend, and who make money off this game?

It's not often people irk me, but you are really, really, dense. People have literally told you everything you're trying to ask and have disproved everything you're trying to imply.

I've repeated my opinion over and over. If you can't see that at this point, I can't help you.

What is with your obsession with status? My opinion isn't instantly invalidated just because I haven't been playing long enough. But besides, this would be understandable if this discussion was about the other Melee mechanics, like wavedashing, but L cancelling? I don't see it.

Your reaction to this dissenting opinion of Melee has not been mature or productive in the slightest. If I am irking you that is not my fault.

 

[.Marik]

My opinion isn't instantly invalidated just because I haven't been playing long enough.

Yes it is. Into the trash your "opinion" goes. And again, generic response. Not all opinions are equal.

But besides, this would be understandable if this discussion was about the other Melee mechanics, like wavedashing, but L cancelling? I don't see it.

So one mechanic that rewards you via execution is okay, but the other one isn't? This is what I mean. You talk out of your ass.

Some characters are bad enough as it is- Melee allows that depth to circumvent how lopsided it would potentially be without a plethora of little neat tricks to really push a metagame.

 

[gmBottles]

If the games after Melee cut landing lag in half automatically without the press of a button, I would understand and agree with you. In that case, it would definitely be "artificial depth" to some degree. However, as it stands, Melee gives you the option to reduce landing lag by pressing one button, and the other's after it do no such thing. Even having that option available to you provides depth to the game.

 

[Crooked Crow]

If the games after Melee cut landing lag in half automatically without the press of a button, I would understand and agree with you. In that case, it would definitely be "artificial depth" to some degree. However, as it stands, Melee gives you the option to reduce landing lag by pressing one button, and the other's after it do no such thing. Even having that option available to you provides depth to the game.

Muh-muh arbitrary standards! You haven't dis-disproven anything I've said! Melee is ca-casual easy mode with aritifical depth because additional options exist!

Check your PRIVILEGE, Lum!

Speaking of Lum, who mains Bowser- I think he can appreciate what L-Cancelling brings to the table.

 

[gmBottles]

Muh-muh arbitrary standards! You haven't dis-disproven anything I've said! Melee is ca-casual easy mode with aritifical depth because additional options exist!

Check your PRIVILEGE, Lum!

Actually I don't think the argument was that extra options exist, but that the landing lag wasn't reduced by default. Which is still stupid, since like I said, none of the games do that, but still.

Privilege checked, still a Bowser main.

 

[Crooked Crow]

Actually I don't think the argument was that extra options exist, but that the landing lag wasn't reduced by default. Which is still stupid, since like I said, none of the games do that, but still.

Privilege checked, still a Bowser main.

Wait, there's an actual argument? The guy is inconsistent as hell and makes no sense. He's attempting to paint pictures with only a few brushstrokes.

 

[gmBottles]

Wait, there's an actual argument? The guy is inconsistent as hell and makes no sense. He's attempting to paint pictures with only a few brushstrokes.

There's definitely an argument, it just isn't very good and it ignores a lot of factors that we've mentioned.

 

[Crooked Crow]

There's definitely an argument, it just isn't very good and it ignores a lot of factors that we've mentioned.

Tiers don exits.

 

[-ACE-]

That eliminates the need for you to do anything else, regardless of your other options. If you have no need for 99% of the things you can do, it's not a very deep game, is it?

Examples of extreme cases are often a good way to look at things. Like if you were a game developer debating on whether or not decreasing landing lag by a frame was good, it's good to imagine a game with no landing lag versus a game with lots of landing lag (and how the other aspects of the game would fall into place as a result of either). Don't just say "we aren't talking about eliminating all landing lag" without envisioning what that change would do to the gameplay. It'll give you a better idea of the grand scope of things. In this case, if you want to remove difficulty of execution in a certain aspect of the game, and you're debating whether or not it would remove "depth", you could look at a scenario where LOTS of difficulty of execution is removed, and see if you feel the game's depth takes a hit. The answer becomes more obvious then.

 

[Rᴏb]

L cancelling is a very bad mechanic, doesn't add anything except an unnecessary heightening of the skill ceiling

*skill floor

 

[Chainz]

Well this thread got interesting lol

 

[X WaNtEd X]

L-canceling definitely adds depth. It makes top level shield pressure harder to accomplish. Being able to a light press to L-cancel so you don't disturb your tech window is an intriguing mechanic. Also light shielding to cause people to miss an L-cancel is pretty cool. You have to be good with your spacing/positioning to get an edge cancel without hitting L/R. It also makes you want to learn your auto cancelled aerials so you don't hit R/L unnecessarily. It makes it so it takes skill to be fast. Pretty cool imo.

Bringing this post back up for anyone that wants to see where the argument really ended. I will say, however, that Melee would not lose much depth if l-cancels were automatic. Still, they obviously add some depth to the game.

Also adding to this, tilting your shield can be used to cause people to miss l-cancels as well!

 

[rare_hunter59]

Hey guys, just found my password. Its crazy how this forum has changed

 

[Ten of Nine]

Everyone has been going Fox locally....

 

[Dolla Pills]

Everyone has been going Fox locally....

Beautiful

 

[MonkBard]

Everyone has been going Fox locally....

If this isn't the most beautiful thing I've ever seen. :')

 

[Cpt. Slippy]

High sodium level is not good guys. Thought I should share:

 

[-ACE-]

This is totally random but somewhat related to smash since keeping hydrated is key to performing well at tournaments. Lol I'm just curious.... What is your favorite bottled water dudes?

Here's mine
1 Fiji
2 Eternal
3 Crystal Geyser
4. Evian

 

[X WaNtEd X]

This is totally random but somewhat related to smash since keeping hydrated is key to performing well at tournaments. Lol I'm just curious.... What is your favorite bottled water dudes?

Here's mine
1 Fiji
2 Eternal
3 Crystal Geyser
4. Evian

tap water masterrace

 

[-ACE-]

tap water masterrace

The tap water in SFL sucks tho.

I'm usually all about tap water and well water