Mekos
Smash Master
Sorry I can't help you with that. I don't understand the properties behind that either(why it reflects at a weird angle). It is just seems random to me with my current understanding.
Sorry man.
Sorry man.
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Mekos Doubles Critique Thread + Tips
- Thread starter Mekos
- Start date
Mekos
Smash Master
I get your explanation. I guess your asking do I think it is something that should be looked into for doubles play. Personally I don't think so. Seems like it would be a pretty hard team tactic to land.
But you never know. A team could maybe create something amazing from it. My imagination right now just doesn't see it.
But you never know. A team could maybe create something amazing from it. My imagination right now just doesn't see it.
Mekos
Smash Master
Stingers
Hey Stingers! I used the second match starting at 4:30 and the third match starting at 9:45. Woah this is tuff not looking at myself and instead analyzing your actions instead of my own. But here I go!
Tips
4:43 – Beautiful job at 4:40 of trying to keep green team sandwiched.
5:03 – you are still doing a great job of keeping green team sandwiched. You are cutting off their options. You are taking advantage of Rob’s projectiles. With Rob you don’t have to be so close to keep the other team sandwiched.
6:10 – Good decision to go and help your partner
6:40 – you are trying to force a gimp. In doubles go for guaranteed stuff. You are playing the best lucas in the world
. Know your opponents and respect their skills. You should have jumped the snake with your partner. Always take advantage of 2v1s. One thing I recommend would be to act like you are going after the lucas which would cause his partner to run and help and then really attack the snake. These are advanced dubs tactics. Get away from putting a target on a one players back.
7:08 – Your partner is getting pressured hard and eventually dies. You needed to be more aggressive here in your team spacing. You should have entered the fight. Doesn’t matter if the c4 is there. Go around it.
9:50 – Good sandwich. It is clear you have this down and understand it. Good job.
12:36 – Verty crucial. When you attack in doubles, make sure you are looking at all 4 characters on the screen and can’t get punished. This is hard and is advanced dubs play. I of course wouldn’t do such a risky move like pk thunder unless I trusted/communicated to my partner to get the punish.
Alright, now it is time for your ranking. I am going to combine both games.
Followups - 1 out of 5 – I didn’t really see any followups. You need to work on this part of your doubles game Stingers.
Punishes – 0 out of 5 – Didn’t see any punishes.
Sandwiching – 5 out 5 – Excellent job sandwiching. You use Rob’s fair well. And even from afar you use Rob’s projectiles. Just be careful because sometimes you should pressure harder in order to be there for your partner(projectiles are too week and a doubles pro will be aware of it).
Team Tactics – 1 out 5 – I didn’t see any. Maybe DK pounding the ground to your fair is one but that just looks liked sandwiching to me.
Stayed away from Unneeded 1v1 battles - 2 out of 5 - You chased of the stage a lot to try and get the kill. Only do this if it is guaranteed. If not jump the person on the stage and rack up %.
Overall score – 2.5 out of 5 – You have great sandwiching skills but that is about it. You seem to be playing Rob exactly how you do in singles. Develop a doubles playstyle that allows you to get some punishes and followups in. I know the DK player is you main partner. Develop some team strats and tactics with him. One simple tactic is for him to save his fully charged power punch until you get a grab. Rob has one of the best grabs in the game and when you play dubs you immediately throw like it’s singles. In dubs pummel or throw to your partner so they can followup. You are a great player but your singles skills are carrying you through doubles. Master these dubs fundamentals and you will shine brighter my friend.
Wafty
Hey wifi buddy!!
Tips
Game 1
:18 – ooh already you missed a followup from your partner. Remember always want to look and go after guaranteed situations. After you hit the Rob you should have immediately went to attack the mk. You don’t have to focus on one person the whole time. There aren’t really combos in singles but there are in brawl!! I see you tried after but the mk is already out of stun. Too late. Good job recognizing the sandwich though.
:54 – Stop throwing immediately unless you and your partner do this on purpose. Pummel and right when he attacks stop. And if your partner is behind you downthrow. Wario has one of the best throws for following up in the game(his downthrow). Throwing immediately is a singles tactic. When you hold it allows for your partner to followup up and makes the opponent’s teammate go aggro and try to save them. You then can punish their teammates aggro.
3:50 – You guys are unfortunately mostly fighting two separate 1v1 battles. Your partner has got hit by mk so many times and you are never there for the punish. One tip to over come this is to act like you are fighting the rob but you are really keeping good team spacing(being close enough) to your partner so that you can followup or get a punish. Right after you get a kill. But the amazing things that are happening are individual. Not team tactics or teamwork.
4:08 – I know this is for you but tell your partner that g&w’s bair/turtle is extremely good for shield pressure. This will allow you to more easily followup for a continued team shield pressure.
Game 2
:34 – That is good. You want to have things like that happen constantly.
:47 – You are sticking to an unneeded 1v1 battle. You should have went to help your partner. Who knows what would have happened because you see the mk messed up. Potentially what could have happened is as you rushed over and saw the mk slip up, your partner grabbed the ledge, and you then hold off the rob. That would have been a kill. Always focusing on the team brings about kills.
1:03 – Save crucial attacks like farts or buckets for guaranteed situations. Like if your partner gets a grab for example. Or your partner forces a roll or airdodge.
1:48 – Good punish. You should have the teamspacing to get those consistently.
3:40 – Oh noooo haha. This isn’t you, it’s your partner but you are still responsible for communicating. Smash is a mental game and in a 2v1 most teams want to rush and get it over with. Don’t do this! When Esam and I are in this situation I constanly keep telling him to stay calm and keep the situation 100% in our favor. No need for risky stuff or to try and end it early. No reason at all. An you guys sadly lost because of it
Ranking time!
Followups – 0 out of 5 – I think you saw the opportunities because a lot of times you go and try to do it after it is too late. This is being “reactive”. Follow these dubs tips and you will have the spacing that will automatically make you be “proactive”. You will have the spacing for followups and punishes.
Punishes – 1 out of 5 – Ready up ^. Saw very very few
Sandwiching – 2 out of 5 – You did it sometimes
Team Tactics – 1 out of 5 – I’m disappointed because you guys should have some team tactics developed. You have the fart. Incorporate that into a team tactic. You guys should have some auto kills. I saw you do it on wifi. You were a double wario team and one would throw an opponent into his partner’s and the partner would fart. It was awesome! Develop some stuff for your offline play.
Stayed away from Unneeded 1v1 battles – 0 out of 5 – You guys got some great individual skills but respect your opponents and use the skills towards teamwork and not forcing 1v1 situations.
Overall score – 2 out of 5 – Work on your punishes and followups. Learn how to fart as a punish or followup. Develop some team tactics and don’t throw immediately. This dubs set looks like the average US doubles gameplay. Both teams are mostly just doing two separate 1v1 battles. Learn these doubles fundamentals and get away from that. You can do it Wafty!
Final Tip – Wario and G&W are both great punishers(powerful smashes and the fart)!! You guys have to include good team spacing to get some punishes in your gameplay. Tell your partner to go crazy with the turtle (bair) and you learn how to followup and team shield pressure off of it. Good luck Wafty!
Hey Stingers! I used the second match starting at 4:30 and the third match starting at 9:45. Woah this is tuff not looking at myself and instead analyzing your actions instead of my own. But here I go!
Tips
4:43 – Beautiful job at 4:40 of trying to keep green team sandwiched.
5:03 – you are still doing a great job of keeping green team sandwiched. You are cutting off their options. You are taking advantage of Rob’s projectiles. With Rob you don’t have to be so close to keep the other team sandwiched.
6:10 – Good decision to go and help your partner
6:40 – you are trying to force a gimp. In doubles go for guaranteed stuff. You are playing the best lucas in the world
. Know your opponents and respect their skills. You should have jumped the snake with your partner. Always take advantage of 2v1s. One thing I recommend would be to act like you are going after the lucas which would cause his partner to run and help and then really attack the snake. These are advanced dubs tactics. Get away from putting a target on a one players back. 7:08 – Your partner is getting pressured hard and eventually dies. You needed to be more aggressive here in your team spacing. You should have entered the fight. Doesn’t matter if the c4 is there. Go around it.
9:50 – Good sandwich. It is clear you have this down and understand it. Good job.
12:36 – Verty crucial. When you attack in doubles, make sure you are looking at all 4 characters on the screen and can’t get punished. This is hard and is advanced dubs play. I of course wouldn’t do such a risky move like pk thunder unless I trusted/communicated to my partner to get the punish.
Alright, now it is time for your ranking. I am going to combine both games.
Followups - 1 out of 5 – I didn’t really see any followups. You need to work on this part of your doubles game Stingers.
Punishes – 0 out of 5 – Didn’t see any punishes.
Sandwiching – 5 out 5 – Excellent job sandwiching. You use Rob’s fair well. And even from afar you use Rob’s projectiles. Just be careful because sometimes you should pressure harder in order to be there for your partner(projectiles are too week and a doubles pro will be aware of it).
Team Tactics – 1 out 5 – I didn’t see any. Maybe DK pounding the ground to your fair is one but that just looks liked sandwiching to me.
Stayed away from Unneeded 1v1 battles - 2 out of 5 - You chased of the stage a lot to try and get the kill. Only do this if it is guaranteed. If not jump the person on the stage and rack up %.
Overall score – 2.5 out of 5 – You have great sandwiching skills but that is about it. You seem to be playing Rob exactly how you do in singles. Develop a doubles playstyle that allows you to get some punishes and followups in. I know the DK player is you main partner. Develop some team strats and tactics with him. One simple tactic is for him to save his fully charged power punch until you get a grab. Rob has one of the best grabs in the game and when you play dubs you immediately throw like it’s singles. In dubs pummel or throw to your partner so they can followup. You are a great player but your singles skills are carrying you through doubles. Master these dubs fundamentals and you will shine brighter my friend.
Wafty
Hey wifi buddy!!
Tips
Game 1
:18 – ooh already you missed a followup from your partner. Remember always want to look and go after guaranteed situations. After you hit the Rob you should have immediately went to attack the mk. You don’t have to focus on one person the whole time. There aren’t really combos in singles but there are in brawl!! I see you tried after but the mk is already out of stun. Too late. Good job recognizing the sandwich though.
:54 – Stop throwing immediately unless you and your partner do this on purpose. Pummel and right when he attacks stop. And if your partner is behind you downthrow. Wario has one of the best throws for following up in the game(his downthrow). Throwing immediately is a singles tactic. When you hold it allows for your partner to followup up and makes the opponent’s teammate go aggro and try to save them. You then can punish their teammates aggro.
3:50 – You guys are unfortunately mostly fighting two separate 1v1 battles. Your partner has got hit by mk so many times and you are never there for the punish. One tip to over come this is to act like you are fighting the rob but you are really keeping good team spacing(being close enough) to your partner so that you can followup or get a punish. Right after you get a kill. But the amazing things that are happening are individual. Not team tactics or teamwork.
4:08 – I know this is for you but tell your partner that g&w’s bair/turtle is extremely good for shield pressure. This will allow you to more easily followup for a continued team shield pressure.
Game 2
:34 – That is good. You want to have things like that happen constantly.
:47 – You are sticking to an unneeded 1v1 battle. You should have went to help your partner. Who knows what would have happened because you see the mk messed up. Potentially what could have happened is as you rushed over and saw the mk slip up, your partner grabbed the ledge, and you then hold off the rob. That would have been a kill. Always focusing on the team brings about kills.
1:03 – Save crucial attacks like farts or buckets for guaranteed situations. Like if your partner gets a grab for example. Or your partner forces a roll or airdodge.
1:48 – Good punish. You should have the teamspacing to get those consistently.
3:40 – Oh noooo haha. This isn’t you, it’s your partner but you are still responsible for communicating. Smash is a mental game and in a 2v1 most teams want to rush and get it over with. Don’t do this! When Esam and I are in this situation I constanly keep telling him to stay calm and keep the situation 100% in our favor. No need for risky stuff or to try and end it early. No reason at all. An you guys sadly lost because of it
Ranking time!
Followups – 0 out of 5 – I think you saw the opportunities because a lot of times you go and try to do it after it is too late. This is being “reactive”. Follow these dubs tips and you will have the spacing that will automatically make you be “proactive”. You will have the spacing for followups and punishes.
Punishes – 1 out of 5 – Ready up ^. Saw very very few
Sandwiching – 2 out of 5 – You did it sometimes
Team Tactics – 1 out of 5 – I’m disappointed because you guys should have some team tactics developed. You have the fart. Incorporate that into a team tactic. You guys should have some auto kills. I saw you do it on wifi. You were a double wario team and one would throw an opponent into his partner’s and the partner would fart. It was awesome! Develop some stuff for your offline play.
Stayed away from Unneeded 1v1 battles – 0 out of 5 – You guys got some great individual skills but respect your opponents and use the skills towards teamwork and not forcing 1v1 situations.
Overall score – 2 out of 5 – Work on your punishes and followups. Learn how to fart as a punish or followup. Develop some team tactics and don’t throw immediately. This dubs set looks like the average US doubles gameplay. Both teams are mostly just doing two separate 1v1 battles. Learn these doubles fundamentals and get away from that. You can do it Wafty!
Final Tip – Wario and G&W are both great punishers(powerful smashes and the fart)!! You guys have to include good team spacing to get some punishes in your gameplay. Tell your partner to go crazy with the turtle (bair) and you learn how to followup and team shield pressure off of it. Good luck Wafty!
Mekos
Smash Master
But it's separate analysis wow I just saw the power of a mod. That was amazing!!
stingers
Smash Obsessed
thanks for the writeup =D
Mekos
Smash Master
No prob Stingers. You got potential with those sandwiching powers
GDX
Smash Hero
I namesearched into this weird thread. is someone critiquing me and HRNUT team vids to see where we're good/bad?
Probably wont learn much from it but have fun with that
Probably wont learn much from it but have fun with that
Mekos
Smash Master
Not at all lol. The team that faced you asked for a critique of their gameplay...
Not about u son!
Not about u son!
GDX
Smash Hero
ah ok. carry on then
ZEEFEET
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- May 30, 2012
- Messages
- 3
- 3DS FC
- 3883-5629-3580
Hey Mekos, new to posting and what not bit what you're doing here is awesome!
Now I'm definitely new to the professional play but me and my friends went to a doubles tourney yesterday and did terribly... if you don't take into account of our opponents. Now I definitely see things we did wrong (we didn't know what to expect haha) but would love some help. Thanks!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcQt77VNkn8
Now I'm definitely new to the professional play but me and my friends went to a doubles tourney yesterday and did terribly... if you don't take into account of our opponents. Now I definitely see things we did wrong (we didn't know what to expect haha) but would love some help. Thanks!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcQt77VNkn8
Mekos
Smash Master
haha thanks for the feedback brother! Your video is next in line
And remember it doesn't matter who your opponents are in doubles. There are actual combos in brawl and guaranteed team setups! So like in MvC3 once the opponent commits to a certain action or is in a certain situation there can be a certain outcome no matter the player!
Hmmm...
Zeefeet to be great in doubles you have to have reached a certain level of individual skill. In this match Anti's and Nairo's power level is too high above yall's that I couldn't really judge your playstyle. You didn't get a chance to do much. With that said great job getting those kills my lucas brother!
Tips
You need to advance your individual skills. This can be done by playing 1v1 battles against players who are better than you or by analyzing your own youtube vids(and asking yourself what you could have done better and try it next time). Also, u can watch youtube vids of players better than you and try and incorporate some of their playstyle into your own.
Now after you have done that try and master these dubs fundamentals. Of course still try and do these fundamentals while you play doubles. I'm just saying advancing your skill is priority.
If you play on wifi I don't mind playing with u sometime. I think that would help.
And remember it doesn't matter who your opponents are in doubles. There are actual combos in brawl and guaranteed team setups! So like in MvC3 once the opponent commits to a certain action or is in a certain situation there can be a certain outcome no matter the player!
Hmmm...
Zeefeet to be great in doubles you have to have reached a certain level of individual skill. In this match Anti's and Nairo's power level is too high above yall's that I couldn't really judge your playstyle. You didn't get a chance to do much. With that said great job getting those kills my lucas brother!
Tips
You need to advance your individual skills. This can be done by playing 1v1 battles against players who are better than you or by analyzing your own youtube vids(and asking yourself what you could have done better and try it next time). Also, u can watch youtube vids of players better than you and try and incorporate some of their playstyle into your own.
Now after you have done that try and master these dubs fundamentals. Of course still try and do these fundamentals while you play doubles. I'm just saying advancing your skill is priority.
If you play on wifi I don't mind playing with u sometime. I think that would help.
B_AWAL
Smash Master
Subbed
Mekos
Smash Master
Thanks! I take it you play sonic.
I personally feel that sonic has amazing potential for dubs. He has really great assets for it. He has the speed to get alot of punishes and followups that other characters might not be able to reach in time.
He is also good at distracting. If you can learn the basics and develop a doubles sonic playstyle u will ****! I guarantee it!
I personally feel that sonic has amazing potential for dubs. He has really great assets for it. He has the speed to get alot of punishes and followups that other characters might not be able to reach in time.
He is also good at distracting. If you can learn the basics and develop a doubles sonic playstyle u will ****! I guarantee it!
Mekos can we talk about how hilarious DK can be in doubles?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSThPOXZumM
Wario too, with his awesome dthrow setups (its the perfect pass) and crazy item game.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSThPOXZumM
Wario too, with his awesome dthrow setups (its the perfect pass) and crazy item game.
B_AWAL
Smash Master
I've already been doing most of those things without myself even thinking about it so I'm GLAD I'm on the right path. Now the HARD part is teaching my friends so I can practice these strats.
Mekos
Smash Master
@B_AWAL - Yes!! Doubles is a teams game. It takes two! U can do it bro. Some advice tho...I've realized some people sadly cannot get it. They will stick to singles habits. If your partner cannot at least visualize their mistakes, you may want to try a new partner.
One simple example is grabbing. Alot of players in singles immediately throw. U rarely want to do this in dubs(unless your partner has the spacing for a followup or u have a guaranteed setup). Alot of people can't seem to break that habit. And that small habit causes alot of teams to lose. A grab to a partner followup is a free kill or heavy % in alot of situations.
@Tesh - sure buddy haha. I haven't seen the vid yet but I bet there are a bunch of sick followups and punishes!!
Wow already both teams don't focus mainly on 1v1 battles! This is great. The Japanese are awesome! Maybe they saw my tips vids!
One simple example is grabbing. Alot of players in singles immediately throw. U rarely want to do this in dubs(unless your partner has the spacing for a followup or u have a guaranteed setup). Alot of people can't seem to break that habit. And that small habit causes alot of teams to lose. A grab to a partner followup is a free kill or heavy % in alot of situations.
@Tesh - sure buddy haha. I haven't seen the vid yet but I bet there are a bunch of sick followups and punishes!!
Wow already both teams don't focus mainly on 1v1 battles! This is great. The Japanese are awesome! Maybe they saw my tips vids!
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
There is no such thing as being unable to break a habit.
Lovage, a very technical Melee Fox, managed to change from stick jumping to button jumping.
Lovage, a very technical Melee Fox, managed to change from stick jumping to button jumping.
Mekos
Smash Master
That is great to know Grim. Anything is possible if we put our mind to it huh?
@Tesh - Yo tesh u see how good DK's up B lowers shield!! I was talking to Will about that! Man DK has some great team shield pressure potential. The sky is the limit!!
Dk in my imagination breaks shields left and right in dubs!! Yer right about the Wario dthrow. I hope it happens during this set because wario dthrow to dk power punch is broken!!
The team tactics in doubles is almost endless. Such a beautiful thing. I love it! So much unexplored ground as well.
@Tesh - Yo tesh u see how good DK's up B lowers shield!! I was talking to Will about that! Man DK has some great team shield pressure potential. The sky is the limit!!
Dk in my imagination breaks shields left and right in dubs!! Yer right about the Wario dthrow. I hope it happens during this set because wario dthrow to dk power punch is broken!!
The team tactics in doubles is almost endless. Such a beautiful thing. I love it! So much unexplored ground as well.
Mekos
Smash Master
OMG I love that team edge guarding at the end of the first match. Thanks so much for showing me this. I enjoy and love watching dubs matches with real teamwork.
Figured Tesh. People in America say double mk is broken. That is false and true.
It is true if they are fighting a team that is not using teamwork. U are basically fighting the best character in two separate 1v1 battles. Of course the best character should win at high level play.
It is false if both teams or the non-double mk team has great teamwork(not just fighting two separate 1v1 battles. In fact this is rarely going on. They are working together the whole time) Other teams have alot more team tactics and killing power. Mk dies early compared to alot of characters and doesn't have that great of raw killing power.
Guys it is very interesting how the DK chooses not to power punch as a follow-up sometimes. He picks a smash sometimes. And it doesn't kill when a power punch would. I am not judging the guy tho. I see the genius behind it. It is a great scare tactic! Smash is a mental game. Opponents are terrified of a DK walking around with a power punch ready! Awesome stuff!
Wow at the end. See how teamwork makes the dream work. They were down and one team tactics changed the game. He threw him to wario fart. Beautiful! Great synergy!
1 punish and 1 team tactics changed the game around. No 1v1 battles did that guys. Teamwork is so crucial. I'm so excited we are seeing good examples. Thanks again so much Tesh!
SN: I really do think my analysis of the DK is correct. At the end he still had the Dk power punch haha. Awesome scare tactic.
Figured Tesh. People in America say double mk is broken. That is false and true.
It is true if they are fighting a team that is not using teamwork. U are basically fighting the best character in two separate 1v1 battles. Of course the best character should win at high level play.
It is false if both teams or the non-double mk team has great teamwork(not just fighting two separate 1v1 battles. In fact this is rarely going on. They are working together the whole time) Other teams have alot more team tactics and killing power. Mk dies early compared to alot of characters and doesn't have that great of raw killing power.
Guys it is very interesting how the DK chooses not to power punch as a follow-up sometimes. He picks a smash sometimes. And it doesn't kill when a power punch would. I am not judging the guy tho. I see the genius behind it. It is a great scare tactic! Smash is a mental game. Opponents are terrified of a DK walking around with a power punch ready! Awesome stuff!
Wow at the end. See how teamwork makes the dream work. They were down and one team tactics changed the game. He threw him to wario fart. Beautiful! Great synergy!
1 punish and 1 team tactics changed the game around. No 1v1 battles did that guys. Teamwork is so crucial. I'm so excited we are seeing good examples. Thanks again so much Tesh!
SN: I really do think my analysis of the DK is correct. At the end he still had the Dk power punch haha. Awesome scare tactic.
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
I think Jigglypuff has untapped teams potential.
1. Mobility. She isn't super fast, but she's no slouch either.
2. Can recover without assistance.
3. Can avoid lots of loose traps and combos with ease.
4. Pound to cover options and break shields.
5. Rest is easier to land and harder to punish.
6. Sets up 2v1 situations with ease thanks to up throw.
7. Rollout frame traps.
8. Her main problem in singles (easily countered approach) comes into play way less often.
I wonder who would work well with her...
I think double MK is the best team. They control space and punish soooo hard.
1. Mobility. She isn't super fast, but she's no slouch either.
2. Can recover without assistance.
3. Can avoid lots of loose traps and combos with ease.
4. Pound to cover options and break shields.
5. Rest is easier to land and harder to punish.
6. Sets up 2v1 situations with ease thanks to up throw.
7. Rollout frame traps.
8. Her main problem in singles (easily countered approach) comes into play way less often.
I wonder who would work well with her...
I think double MK is the best team. They control space and punish soooo hard.
Actually MK dies alot later in doubles compared to singles because of the viability of his drill rush braking. You can survive as absurd percents and your partner can just clips you with tornado/fair/softnair and its going to be okay because you are amazing in the air.
I think if you look at Apex doubles GF you can see how much stronger Otori and Kakera were together even though M2K and Anti are both probably better than Kakera. Shuttle loop is very easily setup by pretty much everything because of the huge range. Tornado is great for breaking up tough situations for your partner (the strongest way to deal with tornado is to shield and punish, which isn't as viable in doubles and won't protect your partner).
MK is also one of the strongest stock tanks in the game. America just doesn't have an MK/MK team with the same synergy as gnes/razer shaky/riddle etc. because our best MKs come from alot of different places and usually only team up at nationals.
Yea at the end, that grab setup looks legit. Wario dthrow to DK cargo throw to Wario regrab. Nice little game of catch they would have had going.
I think if you look at Apex doubles GF you can see how much stronger Otori and Kakera were together even though M2K and Anti are both probably better than Kakera. Shuttle loop is very easily setup by pretty much everything because of the huge range. Tornado is great for breaking up tough situations for your partner (the strongest way to deal with tornado is to shield and punish, which isn't as viable in doubles and won't protect your partner).
MK is also one of the strongest stock tanks in the game. America just doesn't have an MK/MK team with the same synergy as gnes/razer shaky/riddle etc. because our best MKs come from alot of different places and usually only team up at nationals.
Yea at the end, that grab setup looks legit. Wario dthrow to DK cargo throw to Wario regrab. Nice little game of catch they would have had going.
Mekos
Smash Master
@Grim - I agree man! I can just imagine the **** team gimps she can set up.
@Tesh - I disagree buddy. Remember my definitions of "followups" and "Punishes". Those are both when your opponent can't do anything about it. If they were to play a team utilizing teamwork(having the team spacing for followups and punishes) then they would have got alot of punishes and followups on them as well. It is inevitable in dubs.
Whenever u attack u have cool down time. So if you choose to attack someone in theory the other person has frames to attack u when there is nothing u can do about it. That is a "punish". It's not just a theory tho...this is reality haha.
Whenever you attack someone who is in stun(they can't air dodge or attack), this is called a "followup". These things happen randomly sometimes in USA dubs. But the key is to create a doubles gameplay where this is your focus. If it is your focus you will see alot of team combos like the vid you posted.
So if the double mk team is facing a team who is not playing as a team then yea.
But punishes and followups are inevitable my friend for a team utilizing teamwork as I have described it.
One last thing. In america mk gets away with running to the ledge and camping. One of his opponents usually chase him and two separate 1v1 battles are happening. A smart team should simply jump his partner. Now you could say "what if both opponents are mk and camping?".
But Tesh that is what I was saying earlier. That is where team tactics come in. If a double mk is playing a bucket team or healling team then they are forced to go aggro. Or even a "charge"(I just made that up hehe) like DK and wario, will force a double mk team to go aggro. As time goes by wario gains his fart and Dk can charge his power punch. A double mk team will not want them to charge that after the few times the DK/wario pulls a fart or punch off while using teamwork.
This is my opinion on the matter of course. Please don't think I am being negative towards your opinion or anything.
By the way Tesh. I am struggling finding other new Japanese dubs vids. Please feel free to post them here if they have great teamwork in them.
@Tesh - I disagree buddy. Remember my definitions of "followups" and "Punishes". Those are both when your opponent can't do anything about it. If they were to play a team utilizing teamwork(having the team spacing for followups and punishes) then they would have got alot of punishes and followups on them as well. It is inevitable in dubs.
Whenever u attack u have cool down time. So if you choose to attack someone in theory the other person has frames to attack u when there is nothing u can do about it. That is a "punish". It's not just a theory tho...this is reality haha.
Whenever you attack someone who is in stun(they can't air dodge or attack), this is called a "followup". These things happen randomly sometimes in USA dubs. But the key is to create a doubles gameplay where this is your focus. If it is your focus you will see alot of team combos like the vid you posted.
So if the double mk team is facing a team who is not playing as a team then yea.
But punishes and followups are inevitable my friend for a team utilizing teamwork as I have described it.
One last thing. In america mk gets away with running to the ledge and camping. One of his opponents usually chase him and two separate 1v1 battles are happening. A smart team should simply jump his partner. Now you could say "what if both opponents are mk and camping?".
But Tesh that is what I was saying earlier. That is where team tactics come in. If a double mk is playing a bucket team or healling team then they are forced to go aggro. Or even a "charge"(I just made that up hehe) like DK and wario, will force a double mk team to go aggro. As time goes by wario gains his fart and Dk can charge his power punch. A double mk team will not want them to charge that after the few times the DK/wario pulls a fart or punch off while using teamwork.
This is my opinion on the matter of course. Please don't think I am being negative towards your opinion or anything.
By the way Tesh. I am struggling finding other new Japanese dubs vids. Please feel free to post them here if they have great teamwork in them.
MK has the best frame data, which helps just as well in doubles for avoiding these punishes for hitting someone's partner. If I Nair you with MK, your partner will have a much harder time punishing than if I dair you with Snake or something. I'm not saying there aren't things that won't make MK go aggro, but he still has one of the strongest if not THE strongest aggro game in doubles too.
You assume that characters with worse frame data are harder to punish? That weaker characters score kills better? That characters with worse recoveries and momentum cancelling will stock tank better? Aside from easily dismantled powerhouse gimmicks, MK is still the strongest in doubles. MK/Snake with the Omnigay is far more potent than healing (using a low/mid tier fighter) or buckets(using 2 borderline/high tier characters) because its 2 GREAT characters with an instantkill gimmick.
You assume that characters with worse frame data are harder to punish? That weaker characters score kills better? That characters with worse recoveries and momentum cancelling will stock tank better? Aside from easily dismantled powerhouse gimmicks, MK is still the strongest in doubles. MK/Snake with the Omnigay is far more potent than healing (using a low/mid tier fighter) or buckets(using 2 borderline/high tier characters) because its 2 GREAT characters with an instantkill gimmick.
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
Mekos
Smash Master
Great post! And I agree. I thought u were talking about "double mk". If you are saying mk is one of the best doubles characters then I agree with you. Simply because he is such an amazing character. And these basics of dubs of course can be applied by him.
And if you are saying mk/snake is one of the best teams, then I also agree with you. I think you are helping my point. A mk/snake team using teamwork is much better than a double mk team. The team tactic "omnigay" is very good and is instant death if used correctly.
My point was a "double mk" team is not broken like the alot of US players say it is. There are other teams much better like a mk/snake team which u mentioned.
Last point: Be careful calling characters GREAT. Doubles is different from singles and their is alot of untapped potential for alot of characters in doubles. I feel many characters can be GREAT in doubles. Even if we are unaware right now.
Alot of characters weaknesses are gone in doubles with teamwork. Also, their strengths are heightened. Like my boy grim is imagining about Jigglypuff. She basically has an instant kill move. After she gets the rest as a followup or punish her partner can jab her to wake her up. These things are possible. Just takes synergy and not fighting to separate 1v1 battles.
Actually one more point haha: Remember think of my definition of a "followup" and "punish". A person cannot avoid that. The only way it is avoided is if the player misses the timing for the followup or punish. Just like you can't avoid a combo in traditional fighters, u can't avoid a punish or followup which is called "team combos" in brawl.
Again with team spacing it is inevitable. I wish the tourney match of Esam and Mekos vs Will and M2k got saved. I could have showed u what I am talking about.
And if you are saying mk/snake is one of the best teams, then I also agree with you. I think you are helping my point. A mk/snake team using teamwork is much better than a double mk team. The team tactic "omnigay" is very good and is instant death if used correctly.
My point was a "double mk" team is not broken like the alot of US players say it is. There are other teams much better like a mk/snake team which u mentioned.
Last point: Be careful calling characters GREAT. Doubles is different from singles and their is alot of untapped potential for alot of characters in doubles. I feel many characters can be GREAT in doubles
. Even if we are unaware right now. Alot of characters weaknesses are gone in doubles with teamwork. Also, their strengths are heightened. Like my boy grim is imagining about Jigglypuff. She basically has an instant kill move. After she gets the rest as a followup or punish her partner can jab her to wake her up. These things are possible. Just takes synergy and not fighting to separate 1v1 battles.
Actually one more point haha: Remember think of my definition of a "followup" and "punish". A person cannot avoid that. The only way it is avoided is if the player misses the timing for the followup or punish. Just like you can't avoid a combo in traditional fighters, u can't avoid a punish or followup which is called "team combos" in brawl.
Again with team spacing it is inevitable. I wish the tourney match of Esam and Mekos vs Will and M2k got saved. I could have showed u what I am talking about.
1v1 still has to happen in doubles sometimes. Its an unavoidable part of doubles that will eventually happen.
To create those stronger 2v1 situations you often need for 1 part of the team to succeed 1v1 first to get 1 player offstage or in the air. It helps to have a character that isn't there just to be part of a gimmick that isn't helping you atm.
Or if a doubles match comes down to 1v1, you don't wanna be gnw/ness/lucas/dk, you wanna be MK/Snake
To create those stronger 2v1 situations you often need for 1 part of the team to succeed 1v1 first to get 1 player offstage or in the air. It helps to have a character that isn't there just to be part of a gimmick that isn't helping you atm.
Or if a doubles match comes down to 1v1, you don't wanna be gnw/ness/lucas/dk, you wanna be MK/Snake
Mekos
Smash Master
Ah not really my friend. Look at at this match. U will see I'm winning alot of my 1v1 encounters.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqHKKXCfa0g
The key is sandwiching...most of the time. If u are in a 1v1 situation u are still thinking about the team. After u end your 1v1 encounter you should make sure your team spacing is good. What most people do tho is "chase". This is extremely bad to do and what alot of US doubles consist of. That is why u see so many separate 1v1 battles.
So of course there are 1v1 encounters but after you have entered one don't force another one by chasing unless u have a guaranteed setup. If it is not guaranteed then focus on sandwiching, followuping up, punishing, team edge guarding, team sheild pressure, or a team tactic. See there are many "team" things that can be done that is so so much better than chasing and forcing a 1v1 battle.
Your second sentence is not true imo. U will notice that alot of players will not have good team spacing to get the punish. So take advantage of that and abuse that factor. That is what I do. Now if both teams have great teamwork then that is when advanced dubs gameplay is needed.
I havn't talked about that.
But one part of advanced dubs gameplay is mastering how to lead the attack and take the smallest punish. U will most likely get sandwiched and have to have great foresight of the different punishes that can befall u. Another part is your defensive game. Alot of people after they are hit try and get "revenge". This is just as bad a chasing. U should DI and lead your character so that you have good team spacing(even if u take a few followups from the other team). U see how everything should constantly be connected? This is what it means to be working as a team constantly. The 1v1 encounters should be very minimal compared to singles.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqHKKXCfa0g
The key is sandwiching...most of the time. If u are in a 1v1 situation u are still thinking about the team. After u end your 1v1 encounter you should make sure your team spacing is good. What most people do tho is "chase". This is extremely bad to do and what alot of US doubles consist of. That is why u see so many separate 1v1 battles.
So of course there are 1v1 encounters but after you have entered one don't force another one by chasing unless u have a guaranteed setup. If it is not guaranteed then focus on sandwiching, followuping up, punishing, team edge guarding, team sheild pressure, or a team tactic. See there are many "team" things that can be done that is so so much better than chasing and forcing a 1v1 battle.
Your second sentence is not true imo. U will notice that alot of players will not have good team spacing to get the punish. So take advantage of that and abuse that factor. That is what I do. Now if both teams have great teamwork then that is when advanced dubs gameplay is needed.
I havn't talked about that.
But one part of advanced dubs gameplay is mastering how to lead the attack and take the smallest punish. U will most likely get sandwiched and have to have great foresight of the different punishes that can befall u. Another part is your defensive game. Alot of people after they are hit try and get "revenge". This is just as bad a chasing. U should DI and lead your character so that you have good team spacing(even if u take a few followups from the other team). U see how everything should constantly be connected? This is what it means to be working as a team constantly. The 1v1 encounters should be very minimal compared to singles.
Seagull Joe
Smash Legend
Mekos
Smash Master
A player has to request for their vid to be critiqued.
Bring one of your doubles vids. I would love to critique it and give tips.
I really like UTDZac in dubs by the way. I would team with him at Whobo4.
Bring one of your doubles vids. I would love to critique it and give tips.
I really like UTDZac in dubs by the way. I would team with him at Whobo4.
Fragger
Smash Journeyman
Yo Mekos, is there anything I need to work on in doubles that you saw?
Mekos
Smash Master
Yea. Try not to chase as much. Always look for the 2v1s. The kills will come. Trust in the team and not your individual power
Mekos
Smash Master
Delux!! 
I did a full critique for u already! xD
I did a full critique for u already! xD
Player-1
Smash Legend
mekos critique plz:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZNQwbLK7Uw&feature=g-all-u
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZNQwbLK7Uw&feature=g-all-u
Gadiel_VaStar
Smash Champion
Our Pit/G&W team needs help Mekos, we would love some tips, and I'd love some tips on how I can be a better teammate: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFBUG2kPx6E
Mekos
Smash Master
@Delux - U did amazing my friend. U just need to learn how to better utilize your invincibility when u are coming back after u lose a stock(For example, wait until they run away from u. They will not wanna challenge u since u will be invincible. Then instead of going after them, go and heal me). Also, you were not under alot of hard pressure. I can better judge u playing with me if we are playing people at your level or better.
@Player 1 - You are first up.
@GV - No problem. I'll critique your vid and give tips bro. You will be after Player-1. U guys are capable of the bucket tactic. I can't wait to help you with this.
@Player 1 - You are first up.
@GV - No problem. I'll critique your vid and give tips bro. You will be after Player-1. U guys are capable of the bucket tactic. I can't wait to help you with this.