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Mekos Doubles Critique Thread + Tips

Mekos

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Hey guys it's Mekos. Alot of people have been asking me for advice for doubles and to critique there doubles gameplay, so I have decided to make this thread. For those of you who don't know me, I am a passionate doubles player who has a unique theory on how doubles should be played. My doubles playstyle is one that focuses on constantly working with your partner and being in sync. Credibility for the theory is that Otori and Kakera do it and won apex 2012! Also, I have not lost one tourney while doing it.(while having a partner that is doing it to. It takes two in doubles!) This thread will share that theory and be used to upgrade doubles in our smash community. We can do it!

This thread will have two purposes.

1. I will share my doubles theory and give tips on how to become a doubles pro! ;)

2. You guys can post vids of your teams doubles matches and I will honestly critique it. No longer am I going to do write ups. I will critique your vid via a Skype call.
Add me on Skype at Carrie v. Dewberry


As time permits I will constantly add to a guide for doubles.
For now here are three doubles tips vids I have created which is a great start for any player or team! It is basically the guide I will write in less detail and in video form. (Make sure you read the description under the vids) (Also, as you focus on me and the options I choose, try and watch all four characters on the screen at once)

Part 1 - Team Spacing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ieMjIbatoNw

Part 2 - Team Shield Pressure and "Sandwiching"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0L9NS-YXf00&list=UUxUgYC4CW36C-W8zcQvZkMw&index=2&feature=plcp

Part 3 - Follow ups & Punishes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGZ7YhZ8vs8&list=UUxUgYC4CW36C-W8zcQvZkMw&index=1&feature=plcp


This thread is one of positivity. Negativity is not wanted. Now lets all upgrade our teamwork and create some crazy doubles battles!! :bee:
Remember it takes 2! and no 1v1 battles!! ;)

SN: It is assumed that you have reached a certain level of individual skill and mastery of your character.
 

DeLux

Player that used to be Lux
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Subscribed. This could be awesome. If we get enough interest I'll sticky it.

Got some Vids:
Colorado Smash Tournament 5/26:
:zerosuitsamus: :pit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5ilhKRPi5A Fishbait :lucario: and Bees :rob: with MJG :snake: (WF)
:pit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYw-nCMhXQg Meno :peach: and Level Zero :luigi: with MJG :snake: (LF)
:pit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEcaLppdUxU Skull :dk: and Rubio :snake::marth: with MJG :snake:

Vengeance 4/7:
:zerosuitsamus: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwSHWbyCppM Overswarm :rob: + Kel :marth: with Fae :lucas:
:zerosuitsamus: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJNrBYX2_4o Luckay :pit: + Krystedez :wario: with Fae :lucas:
:zerosuitsamus: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Ce9-pkyuas Ally :snake: and Logic :olimar: with Fae :lucas:
:zerosuitsamus: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOhd0enj8rQ MJG :toonlink: + Kain :wolf: with Fae :lucas:
:zerosuitsamus: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ram1LHn2nxI Overswarm :rob: + Kel :marth: with Fae :lucas:
 

Mekos

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This thread will be amazing as long as people take it seriously. And there are alot of people who really do want to learn. My inbox is proof.

I'm willing to teach. Doubles is so much fun and awesome!
 

Mekos

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Awesome!! Already this thread is getting hype! :)
I'll start tomorrow and critique them in the order that I receive it.
Get excited guys! We will all become doubles masters and win tourneys!!

lol at Choco...I'll do my best. Teamwork concepts can be applied in every game.
 

Cassio

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Sweet. Doubles guide sounds hype, any extra tutorials or writeups would be greatly appreciated, I know you like writing those essays ;). Hard to find information on doubles and its something Id like to improve on.
 

#HBC | Scary

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ScaryLB59 said:
LSF vs. Gallax :snake: & 2-D Jeff :gw:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVdNVLr4vxs&list=UUpWV1TrJ29Y9cbJu_LpsTZw&index=4&feature=plcp (1)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIRI8m3LJTY&list=UUpWV1TrJ29Y9cbJu_LpsTZw&index=3&feature=plcp (2)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVBI_I5jLCo&list=UUpWV1TrJ29Y9cbJu_LpsTZw&index=2&feature=plcp (3)

LQF vs Kyon :peach: & Apple Jelly :rob:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_gyrC9FTz4&list=UUpWV1TrJ29Y9cbJu_LpsTZw&index=1&feature=plcp (1)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73ftQWf_bg8&list=UUpWV1TrJ29Y9cbJu_LpsTZw&index=10&feature=plcp (2)

WSF vs. HRnut :marth:/:snake: & GDX :diddy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nlsmv5oRF9o&list=UUpWV1TrJ29Y9cbJu_LpsTZw&index=9&feature=plcp (1)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6DisRmnJOn8&list=UUpWV1TrJ29Y9cbJu_LpsTZw&index=8&feature=plcp (2)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=diJdI3Cf5Ak&list=UUpWV1TrJ29Y9cbJu_LpsTZw&index=7&feature=plcp (3)

LF vs. Ryo :ike: & True Blue :sonic:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbXnSgTzwWI&list=UUpWV1TrJ29Y9cbJu_LpsTZw&index=3&feature=plcp (1)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzqpxCTIZV0&list=UUpWV1TrJ29Y9cbJu_LpsTZw&index=2&feature=plcp (2)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5wHxQdnD10&list=UUpWV1TrJ29Y9cbJu_LpsTZw&index=1&feature=plcp (3)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gg6AjrkQ6JQ&list=UUpWV1TrJ29Y9cbJu_LpsTZw&index=10&feature=plcp (4)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=en_5VXsqVi4&list=UUpWV1TrJ29Y9cbJu_LpsTZw&index=9&feature=plcp (5)

The 5th match glitches out at the end but I lost the 2v1 by running into aether and getting dragged off stage.

I really appreciate this man. The gimmick is that I throw fireballs while Fox jumps into them either using his aerials to clash them out as his hitboxes continue, or avoid them and follow up on airdodges or hits. Any input will be awesome man.
Moved from PMs, thanks man!
 

Mekos

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Guys just to let you know I'm going to be critiquing your gameplay. So many matches are not necessary. I will be able to tell how u play based on one video just to let you know.

I am happy so many of you are excited tho! Keep it up!

If you have a different partner then I understand.
Also if your name is different than your smf name tag make sure you let me know which one is you!! haha
 

zmx

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This thread is going to get trolled so hard. For no other reason than it's Mekos.
 

One-Up

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MEOW1337KITTEH

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Funny. I was about to post that :p

Btw, in terms of singles skills, Kira+K9 are ranked 2+3 respectively on our pr while wafty and I are barely HM and not ranked.
 

What's The Point

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I see you bring up Otori and Kakera a lot. Why? They had teamwork but not in the way you ever talk about. You complain about doubles turning into two 1v1s but their entire game play revolved around forcing two 1v1s. They won because they won two 1v1s per game. The only thing they ever do consistently with each other is Up-B after backthrows.
 

Eddie G

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^ I disagree. Their teamwork, team zoning, and combos whenever they occured were all on point. Being great 1v1 players was just a bonus that made things simpler whenever the fights were inevitably divided; it never came across as something they wanted to force since they usually scored the bulk of their damage the quickest by trapping someone between them. Your description would better suit M2K and Anti's pairing imo.
 

Mekos

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Exactly. Eddie G got it. Don't worry What's the Point if you currently don't see what they are doing.
Hopefully this thread will help you. Alright guys im gonna eat and then get to the vids.
 

Dcold

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There should be some sort of system, I'm afraid Mekos might get flooded with videos lol. Maybe a list of videos you're currently going to critique, and more videos posted after that, that way no one gets skipped and you don't get overworked lol. This thread is a good idea for those who want to get better at doubles though, good job Mekos.
 

Mekos

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@Delux I've used one vid to critique your individual doubles gameplay.
with Fae vs MJG and Kain

Tips
1:12 - If your partner is in the lead stay calm and setup your spacing so that you can follow up if he successfully lands a hit or so that you can land a punish if he gets hit. Instead you got in his way. Correct team spacing will lead to guaranteed hits.

1:25 – MJG is edge-guarding you and you successfully make it back. Remember it is about sandwiching. You should then have gone after Kain. This puts Kain in a terrible situation and also helps your partner. Instead you went back and forced a 1v1 situation. You will see that you missed a free punish as Fae gets grabbed at 1:32.

1:58 – That is an awesome team tactic by you and Fae. I love your positioning. You are healing and at the same time attacking. Very smart. Part of you guys overall strategy should be to simply knock away and then heal.

2:37 – Just to make sure you have a clear understanding at this moment you get a “punish”. Since Kain committed to that grab there is nothing he could do about it. Constantly have team spacing for punishes and followups. This is done easiest by sandwiching.

3:05 – Never never ever charge a smash behind your partner. It is not necessary and cuts off your partners options. Just stay calm if your partner is in the lead and look for a punish or followup. Even if you were looking to heal him, he didn’t need healing at 0% and the opponents were not knocked away. Never force a team tactic. The opportunity will come if you and your partner are in sync.

3:30 – Make sure you master your follow ups. Don’t just spam. This requires full mastery of your characters moves and good foresight on where your partner and opponent will land.

5:07 - Great punish! And now you have them sandwiched! Good job at 5:13! That was the correct option to roll to the outside of mjg which kept him sandwiched.

5:24 – Amazing Delux! That is doubles! You picked the right move to allow Kain to be setup for Fae and so that you could dodge Mjg’s attack behind you. That is playing like a doubles pro!!

7:40 – You knocked MJG up and then went and chased him. You would have been better off going to help Fae by setting up for a followup or punish. Kain seeing you come may back off and then you guys could have healed. Also, towards the end you guys are trying to force to many heals. Remember, knock away and then heal. Don’t chase. 7:53 is the best way to heal.

Alright those are some things you need to work on. They may seem small but they are huge game changers. Game 2 was a lot better due to you guys having better teamwork. You unfortunately lost it in the end do to some crucial missed team combos.

I am now going to give you an overall ranking on your dubs play by seeing how many follow-ups, punishes, sandwiching, and successful team tactics(pull of without being punished) you did. Also, I staying in an unneeded(not guaranteed kill or heavy%) 1v1 battle will hurt your score.

Game 1
Follow ups – 0 out of 5 – you had no followups
Punishes – 1 out of 5 – you had two punishes
Sandwiching – 0 out of 5 - Whenever you were had someone sandwiched it seemed you were confused as to who to attack. You never attacked the person who was sandwiched and lost the 1v1 battle to the person behind you. You kept getting hit and eventually just tried to roll behind your partner which isn’t good as it makes both of you cluttered.
Team tactics - 2 out 5 – I love when you guys would ZSS’s attack to heal and attack at the same time. You did it at the wrong time sometimes. For example, you tried to do it when Fae has just came back from dying. Also, you guys could have got a lot more healing off but that is connected to team spacing.
Stayed away from Unneeded 1v1 battles – 2 out of 5 – This match was basically two separate 1v1 battles. I gave you this score because you and Fae successfully healed sometimes.


Game 2
Followups - 2 out 5. Alot better than game 1. You had about three. Most of them were when you had an opponent sandwiched.
Punishes – 1 out of 5. Only saw about 1 punish. You have to be proactive in setting up for it. Don’t just react and hope it happens.
Sandwiching – 3 out 5 – You did a lot better with sandwiching this game and that is why you guys did so much better!
Team tactics – 3 out of 5 - Pretty good healing but you guys still missed a lot of opportunities. Remember you can also heal when they are knocked away vertically. Most people just see the opportunity when the opponents are knocked away horizontally. Don’t chase!
Stayed away from Uneeded 1v1 battles – 2 out of 5 – Had better sandwiching but you still sometimes picked the wrong option. Those small moments are game changers!

Overall score – 2.5 out 5 – You know you are doing something right if you are doing constant followups, punishes, and team tactics. This didn't happen often. Don’t get discouraged. All this means is that there is a lot of room for improvement but this is a good thing(as you guys did well at your current level). As you advance your skills you will see that you will be dominating dubs at the highest level of play. Compare game 1 to game 2. Game 2 you guys had a lot better teamwork. Upgrade your teamwork and I promise you guys will dominate the MW in doubles ;).

Last tip - It is not about who you are playing . Always stick to your team strategy. You and Fae’s basic strategy while utilizing dubs smarts should be to knock away and heal. A lot of times teams allow other teams to get in their head and just play 1v1 battles. Get away from that. This is doubles. You should always be working with your partner. One tip I tell Esam for our healing team is that it is about surviving not getting kills. The kills will come as we work together.


@BSP - No. This is for my doubles theory. I don't want people to get confused. I also, don't want to use this thread to debate. If people don't agree that is okay. But this thread is for my dubs theory that I'm sharing you know.
 

BSP

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Ok, just wondering. If La. ever gets some dubs up, I'll send them this way.

Edit: and I'm glad you made this thread. Your doubles videos never got enough attention and they actually help a lot, so this should help.
 

Mekos

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asa :olimar: + captainL :pikachu2: vs firefly :diddy: + breez :diddy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ru9pdYi0yhQ#t=17m40s

Thank you so much mekos! ^_^
OMG! I can tell. I am so impressed. The last game you guys did amazing. You guys were consistent with utilizing dubs smarts. You guys have good team spacing and very nice followups which lead to kills. You guys have mastery of your character and teamwork so that you guys don't hit each other while following up. Which is very good.
Since you guys did so well I am going to critique the match on sv that you lost :(. I will paste it here once I am done. I feel this will help you guys get better.

By the way you guys have made my day. I love watching dubs that has constant teamwork. This is so much fun!
And Asa you know I love your music. What is the song on SV and Delfino(is that a megaman 8 remix?)? haha


Tips
6:15 – I know you want to help your partner here but you have to understand his recovery skills. You should know that he is able to make it to that platform. You shouldn’t have went there as it made you guys cluttered. Also, you don’t want to go to that platform at the moment when you are at killing% unless you are 100% safe. This was a very small mistake that had good intentions but it cost you the stock. A better option would have been to go close to the edge and maybe shield. This would have protected you from the opponent behind you and most likely distracted the opponent on the ledge(because he would think you are about to edgegaurd him while he is trying to recover, while really you are just distracting him so your partner can land safely).

7:10 – Pick a less powerful option when you partner is recovering unsafely (unless you have the 100% guaranteed hit on the opponent. I have done this mistake before ;) )

Last game
Followups – 5 out of 5 - amazing followups. You guys had amazing team combos, which ended with guaranteed kills.
Punishes – 3 out of 5 – You guys missed a lot of punishes. Figure out a way to get some good punishes in your doubles gameplay.
Sandwiching – 5 out of 5 – You guys had great sandwiching which allowed for your amazing followups.
Team tactics – 0 out of 5 – I didn’t see any in the SV and YI matches.
Stay Away from Unneeded 1v1 battles – 5 out of 5 – I didn’t really see you guys look for 1v1 battles. You guys always chose to work together.

Overall score - 4 out of 5 – You guys have great team spacing, which can be seen by your constant followups and sandwiching. You guys didn’t have many punishes. This area needs work. I didn’t let it affect your score too much because you guys had good enough team spacing to help your partner (you just didn’t get a punish – a guaranteed hit after your partner got hit). You guys don’t really chase unnecessarily which is awesome. This is a hard habit to break for most players.
You guys are pika and oli but that is no excuse not to have a team tactic. I think you guys in another vid you sent me a while ago did one (but stopped after the team went double diddy). You guys did “team spam”. If you opponent in not sandwiched and you guys are together you should probably be setting up or doing a team tactic if one of you are not leading to setup for a sandwich or team pressure situation.
Team spamming is a simple team tactic, which I think you guys do sometimes just not against this team. Anyways, try to create an advanced team tactic with your team. For example, maybe figure out which stage allows for oli to get the most yellow pikmin. Then allow pika to lead while you stick him with yellow pikmin. This will make his attacks last longer(and throw of the opponents timing on how to deal with pika's attacks). That is just one cool idea. Be creative!!
Overall good stuff. I can tell you have seen the vids and have been working together to implement the fundamentals. Keep at it. Upgrade your punishes and develop some nice team tactics.


Last tip - Maybe the double diddy with bananas influenced you guys to never team spam again. Don't let another team influence you. Just master the team spacing for your team tactic and do it when you have the spacing for it. It doesn't matter if bananas are around. That just might mean you don't have the spacing for it at that moment. You guys don't have a crucial one like healing or bucketing so you don't have to be working toward setting up for your team tactic as much. But team spamming can lead to heavy damage and good setups as it forces the other team to go aggro.


Next up. Scary, Stingers, and then Wafty.
 

Brawlman1000

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Subscribed. Been looking for a way to improve my dubz game, this is perfect! :bee:
 

Mekos

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I'm currently on Scary's match. This is the match I am using to critique your individual doubles gameplay.
WSF vs. HRnut / & GDX
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=diJdI...7&feature=plcp (3)


Tips
0:11 – Right from the beginning you picked the wrong option. Remember it is about sandwiching. You should have acted like you were going after the diddy but then pivot/turned around and go after the snake. You would have got a punish but instead you missed it (Hrnut grabbed your partner).

0:32 – I see what you are talking about. Great team tactic! You guys do this very well.
(saw it in the other vids too)

0:52 – Always be paying attention to all the characters on the screen and occasionally check %s. You should not have chose this option. It is better to survive than get%/or go for a kill. You killed your partner.

1:42 – Good job!! You picked the right option and went after the person sandwiched(the snake). This helped your partner get back. Now if your partner was using dubs smarts he should have jumped up from the ledge and timed to hit snakes shield right after your fireball hit it for team shield pressure. But this is analysis is only for you. The next option you picked is wrong, Your awareness is off(you didn’t see snakes c4). You did a move to try and hit the diddy that has way too much cool down for that situation. You and your partner both died for it. After you did the fireball you should have rolled behind the diddy and this would have set up a sandwich.

Your team is fighting mostly 1v1 battles. The only time any teamwork is utilized is when you guys do your team tactic. Your score is below. I will give advice after your overall score.

Followups – 0 out of 5 – I didn’t really see any followups. The only time you got a followup is with your fireballs. I included that in your team tactic score. Master your characters moves that will allow for great follow-ups. I image her nair, reflector, and bair are good moves for following up. A lot of attacks have great shield pressure. Even if you miss the character during their stun pressure their shield and this will allow for your partner to follow up after. A team with Zelda should have good team shield pressure.
Punishes – 0 out of 5 – I didn’t see any punishes. You actually punished your partner on accident :(
Sandwiching – 0.5 out of 5 – You guys didn’t go for this at all. It was mostly two separate 1v1 battles unless you happened to have the spacing for your team tactic. You kinda did it once but it is obvious your partner actually asked you for help because it wasn't in sync and lead to both of you dying :(
Team tactics – 5 out 5 – Great team tactic. You guys are in sync when you do it. This means you guys understand you team spacing for it.
Stayed Away from Unneeded Battles – 0 out of 5 – Again you guys did mostly 1v1 battles. You chased a lot instead of going after the person that was in-between you and your partner.

Overall Score – 1 out of 5 – You guys have a great team tactic but you must realize it is not just about having one. You guys watch my vids, understand the doubles fundamentals(followups, punishes, etc), and master them. If you include these fundamentals in your gameplay you will do so much better. You guys need to master the basics of the dubs theory. Zelda doesn’t have the best options for 1v1 battles…why look for them? Consistent teamwork is better than mostly 1v1 battles gameplay.

Last Tip – Zelda strengths imo is that she has great shield pressure, stun power, and her bair. Master Zelda’s moves(figure out which moves are best to allow for easy followups and for controlling space) and create a doubles playstyle for her. When I team with a Zelda, I like for her to spam smashes. If she hits the opponent then I followup after as the smashes last a long time. If she hits the shield, I hit the shield right after her attack ends for some great team shield pressure. You and your partner need to master team shield pressure for your team. This will become easier as you master the basics.
One unique thing I definitely think you should learn is how to get some guaranteed kills with Zelda’s bair. One ex. Is Fox’s throw to your bair. Figure out which of Fox’s throws would be easiest to do this with and master the spacing for it. That is just one example of a great follow-up you could do with Zelda. Don’t get discouraged. You can do it! ;)

Next in line is Stingers and then Wafty
 

#HBC | Scary

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Tbh, we used to try sandwiching and 2v1ing a lot but then we came up with the gimmick. It appears we need to try and do both. It'll be hard because Zelda is a bit limited with pressure options though; however I will definitely look into the attack after a Zelda smash.
 

Mekos

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Exactly...the sandwiching is the positioning you guys should generally be doing. If you aren't sandwiching then you and your partner should have a team tactic that you are doing. It seems all your team has is a team tactic. So all other times you guys weren't doing the team tactic yall didn't do so well. Yer right Zelda is limitied alone. But this is doubles. You guys need to learn how to team shield pressure. Alot of people struggle to master this because they play their character like it is singles and pick moves that are safe for singles gameplay. This requires trust between you and your partner.
 

Tesh

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Mekos, how do you feel about shield reflection in doubles? I know its a pretty difficult to use technique, but I don't feel alot of people even understand it.
 

Asa

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would mario's cape (used to boost the knockback of moves) be a team tactic or just a followup?
 

Mekos

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uh I only play lucas but I'll answer this question. Do you think there is a character that shouldn't be played in doubles?

Not at all. The doubles metagame is very underdeveloped. There is so much room for creativity. People should get out and explore!! Hope that helps. People first should master these basics and then develop some unique team tactics! :)

Hope that helps
 

Tesh

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Explain shield reflection? I want to make sure I understand what you are talking about.
When there is a different between hurtbubbles size and shield bubble size, you can shield things that wind up "inside" your shield when you block them. This reflects projectiles off at an angle, but unlike normal reflection it can't harm the person that originally fired the projectile (so almost pointless in singles). Also unlike normal reflection, it don't think it increases the power of the projectile. I guess we would just call this "deflection".

But in doubles, you can use it to deflect projectile at high and low angles and still hurt the 2 players that didnt already fire or shield it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57OJ1VKVH2U&t=2m35s

Perfect example. Lucario fires a ridiculously huge aura sphere which is deflected at a downward angle and hits below the ledge.

Just curious about your take on it.
 
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