Megaman Mains - What do you feel your weakness is?

[Locke 06]

Autocancels? I'm not seeing it/didn't know it did that. How are you getting it to auto cancel?
Yes it has good range, but it's not completely safe on shield if you don't auto cancel it (like how fair isnt safe on shield).

It's a decently safe option, with not too much landing lag and good range, but it's not truly safe on shield.

Also @ D Doval MM's Fair and Bair has 19 and 20 frames of landing lag, which is less than the air dodge lag.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Yeah I should really stop posting when I'm tired. Meant to say dair autocancels and bair outranges. I edited my post to clarify.

My point on that, though, is what exactly do you think is going to punish a correctly spaced bair? Between the shield drop and any startup frames, most moves in the game that have the range to punish it don't come out in time. And most moves just don't have the range. Like I said, bair has a stupid range/priority that beats most aerials and smashes in the game. It's better than you think.

Also we have a difference in the word "mistake". Mega man can force the opponent into a risky situation. This is not an error on the part of the opponent, but rather a side effect of mega's godly zoning game. Essentially they have to continue eating pellets and other projectiles, roll, or jump... All of which are beneficial for mega man with proper reads. This is almost universally true, with a few characters having decent counters to the zoning game.

 

[Locke 06]

I think you're having 2 different discussions with 2 different people. I know how good BAir is against other moves. I'm only saying that it's not completely safe on block, so let's keep our discussion about that.

I could see a roll canceled grab being a possibility. Especially since you then have to take time to interrupt or avoid the grab. Mac & DK ftilt could probably work. If doval's post is correct with shield dropping being 7 frames, that's 13 frames to work with.

I guess I'm too literal when I think of pronouncing something safe on block. That said, I do want to learn to space it better against grounded opponents.

Also, I'm not the biggest fan of Dairs as a consistent pressure option. The hitbox is really narrow away from Mega Man's body. But that's another conversation.

 

[Doval]

Where'd you get the 7 frames of shield drop? I've been looking for that number for a while (hoping to figure out the frames for shield drop-->utilt). Also, no approach is safe from perfect shield. But nobody's frame perfect. Also, Greninja/Sheik can't punish like Mega Man (Little Mac can, but he has other problems).

I recorded video at 120 FPS using a camera, split it up into the individual frames and counted. Shaya got the same results independently. It's the same as Brawl, I believe. You don't need to be frame perfect for a perfect shield, it's a 4 frame window in every other game and I doubt they've nerfed it.

By the way, perfect shield doesn't negate stun, it just lets you attack out of shield drop. It gives you more options but doesn't directly give you frame advantage over regular shielding.

My point on that, though, is what exactly do you think is going to punish a correctly spaced bair? Between the shield drop and any startup frames, most moves in the game that have the range to punish it don't come out in time. And most moves just don't have the range. Like I said, bair has a stupid range/priority that beats most aerials and smashes in the game. It's better than you think.

The landing lag on b-air is around 20 frames. A 5% hit barely has any shield stun, dropping a shield takes 7 frames and you can bypass it if you have a move you can do straight out of shield. So every character with a tether will punish you. It's likely most characters have enough time to drop shield and tilt.

Also, sidesteps become active on frame 2 in previous games and I highly doubt they've changed that. All of the multihit moves I've been hit with have so little shield stun that I have to manually keep my shield up between hits. I'll bet most characters can hit confirm the first hit on block and simply sidestep (but not roll) before the 2nd or 3rd and get even more frame advantage.

I can't test it right now but I highly doubt there's anything you can do against an opponent who knows his options. Remember, you're assuming you land shortly after the third hit. Your opponent saw you jump backwards and wait until after the apex of your jump. He knows what you're up to. I've completely ignored the fact that he has options to trade or hit you out of the b-air instead of passively waiting to punish.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Locke, I'm having the same conversation with you and doval, just without quotes.

This is what I'm saying though... There are comments like "any character with a tether will punish you" and (paraphrase) "they can just drop shield and tilt". That's exactly what I'm saying isn't possible for most of the cast.

Roll canceled grab, I believed, was only out of a buffered roll, so you couldn't actually do it after shielding. Has that changed?

Tether grabs don't come out quick enough to reach mega man before he can react (also, tethers are so rare that even if it were true, it doesn't negate the point for most matchups). Again, he's more than a smash attack's distance away at landing. And zairs go above him. Most tilts just don't have the range to connect. Some chars do have long range fast tilts that work like you're suggesting... But most chars do not.

And please don't metagame and say things like "discounting that they can just see you Sh and punish". First, bair out prioritizes most of the aerials in this game. Second, there are so many other options or scenarios where bair is used that obviously I'm not saying we should play like jiggly here. I'm saying it's safe on shield against MOST chars.

Also, if they are able to take the first hit on shield and spot dodge out of the other 2, it doesn't give a frame advantage (spot dodge takes longer than bair finishing). I'm also not suggesting that all 3 hits have to connect

 

[Doval]

And please don't metagame and say things like "discounting that they can just see you Sh and punish". First, bair out prioritizes most of the aerials in this game. Second, there are so many other options or scenarios where bair is used that obviously I'm not saying we should play like jiggly here. I'm saying it's safe on shield against MOST chars.

How is that "metagaming"? The only way to have even the slightest chance of making b-air safe is to land immediately afterwards. The only way for bair to come out so quick your opponent can't see it coming is to do it on frame 1 of your jump. Those scenarios are mutually exclusive. If your opponent sees you jumping backwards at him it's obvious you want to b-air.

Also, if they are able to take the first hit on shield and spot dodge out of the other 2, it doesn't give a frame advantage (spot dodge takes longer than bair finishing). I'm also not suggesting that all 3 hits have to connect

If don't let all three hits connect all you've done is screw yourself out of shield damage and stun. Each hit does more damage than the last so for maximum shield stun you must let the final hit connect.

That a spot dodge would take longer than b-air is blatantly false. Here's all the spot dodge data for Brawl. You have to put up with 20 frames of landing lag plus the remaining two hits of b-air plus however much it takes you to land. If you can spot dodge there's at least a 2 frame gap between hits. We can safely assume a spot dodge takes and average of 25 frames. The data is similar in Melee and there's no reason to believe it's changed significantly in Smash 4. Additionally the opponent has the benefit of buffering moves out of the spot dodge for perfect execution while you can't consistently land b-air as close to the ground as possible.

 

[Fenrir VII]

How is that "metagaming"? The only way to have even the slightest chance of making b-air safe is to land immediately afterwards. The only way for bair to come out so quick your opponent can't see it coming is to do it on frame 1 of your jump. Those scenarios are mutually exclusive. If your opponent sees you jumping backwards at him it's obvious you want to b-air.

false on several accounts. The biggest one being that you seemingly forget empty short hops, double jumps, metal blades, etc etc etc are possible instead of bair in that scenario. That's why I say you are metagaming. The jump to "if you jump backwards, you're going to bair" is ridiculous, and indicating that the opponent KNOWS you are doing that without the consideration of mixups on our part is one-sided bias, and leads us down a discussion that has nothing to do with the original topic of "is bair safe on shield?"

If don't let all three hits connect all you've done is screw yourself out of shield damage and stun. Each hit does more damage than the last so for maximum shield stun you must let the final hit connect.

Implying that the main goal is maximum shield stun, and timing/spacing variation (which would throw off several of your counterpoints) is unimportant. This is not true... There are reasons to vary timing on multihit moves for different hit boxes and effects, not even mentioning that varying timing does not allow your opponent to always know when a punishment is safe (one of the reasons Link's fsmash first hit is safer than it should be). 2 examples: A) the first 2 hits of bair can cause trip and spike, which are both great for us if they hit; and B) if you start it early and only hit the 3rd hit on a fast fall after a full hop or 2nd jump, the first 2 hits cover a jump as well.

That a spot dodge would take longer than b-air is blatantly false. Here's all the spot dodge data for Brawl. You have to put up with 20 frames of landing lag plus the remaining two hits of b-air plus however much it takes you to land. If you can spot dodge there's at least a 2 frame gap between hits. We can safely assume a spot dodge takes and average of 25 frames. The data is similar in Melee and there's no reason to believe it's changed significantly in Smash 4. Additionally the opponent has the benefit of buffering moves out of the spot dodge for perfect execution while you can't consistently land b-air as close to the ground as possible.

You misunderstand. I am saying starting a spot dodge to avoid 2 hits of the bair after the first connects leaves you less frame advantage than if you just shield the 2 hits. I believe this is true, and the average spot dodge length of 25 frames supports that, and indicates a frame disadvantage if the bair is ground canceled before all 3 hits.

 

[Doval]

false on several accounts. The biggest one being that you seemingly forget empty short hops, double jumps, metal blades, etc etc etc are possible instead of bair in that scenario. That's why I say you are metagaming. The jump to "if you jump backwards, you're going to bair" is ridiculous, and indicating that the opponent KNOWS you are doing that without the consideration of mixups on our part is one-sided bias, and leads us down a discussion that has nothing to do with the original topic of "is bair safe on shield?"

An empty jump is crazy unsafe. Metal blade is unsafe if it leaves you anywhere near the opponent and won't have any real repercussions for them if they block. Double jump leaves you in a horrible position if you get hit and you have no decent follow up to it against a grounded opponent. If you come at a grounded opponent from the air, you're going to lose more of than not.

You can justify any unsafe move by saying you could mix it up, but that doesn't make it safe. Yes, you might fake out the opponent with a b-air, but why would you even risk it unless he's at kill range? You're more likely to get punished for it than to succeed and it doesn't lead to any guaranteed follow-ups.

I'll concede that spot dodging probably has less frame advantage than shielding.

 

[Fenrir VII]

An empty jump is crazy unsafe. Metal blade is unsafe if it leaves you anywhere near the opponent and won't have any real repercussions for them if they block. Double jump leaves you in a horrible position if you get hit and you have no decent follow up to it against a grounded opponent. If you come at a grounded opponent from the air, you're going to lose more of than not.

You can justify any unsafe move by saying you could mix it up, but that doesn't make it safe. Yes, you might fake out the opponent with a b-air, but why would you even risk it unless he's at kill range? You're more likely to get punished for it than to succeed and it doesn't lead to any guaranteed follow-ups.

"An empty [short] jump [at bair range, which again is more than most chars smash attacks] is crazy unsafe [even though the opponent doesn't know you won't bair]"
"Metal blade [again at a decent distance] is unsafe"
"Double jump [aerial zoning at a 45 degree angle that NO CHARACTER can punish with anything that you can't react to] leaves you in a horrible position"

Yeah I think I'm gonna be done with this discussion. It's clear that you and I VASTLY disagree on what makes moves safe/unsafe so I don't feel like the debate will do any good here. It's like you're saying Mega Man doesn't have a safe mid range zoning game, which is something that the majority of players seem to take as fact now.

empty SH in particular has been an amazing offensive mixup in EVERY smash game, so calling it unsafe blows my mind. At worst, it's just a positional reset, and the opponent doesn't know when he can attack you.


My point in this thread is essentially this..
Mega Man has possibly the best mid range zoning game in SSB4. He has tools to safely pressure opponents shields and push them into a corner without giving them a good way out of it. buster shots, MB and his aerials generally outrange any countermeasures, so the opponent is forced to A) stay in shield [a completely negative position] B) roll [punishable on reaction] or C) jump [either punishable on reaction or on landing against MOST characters]. Without the opponent making a "mistake" (choosing the best option given to them), MM can force them to take a negative position and punish.
Add to that the fact that he DOES have good kill options (will be better with a better controller and no lag), can escape otherwise guaranteed combos with Rush (making some characters unable to reliably kill him), has a decent recovery, and is a good edgeguarder against almost everybody, and I really think MM has a lot of potential in this game to be a very good character.

 

[Doval]

You keep confusing "unpredictable" with safe. An empty jump is the most unsafe thing you could ever do because it leaves you in a completely vulnerable position within the enemy's attack range for an extended period of time. Can you get away with it every now and then? Absolutely. Can you use it with any kind of regularity? Absolutely not. Lemons are safe. There's almost nothing the opponent can do to punish you for them even when he knows it's coming.

Regarding metal blades and double jumps, they're unsafe at the range you'd hit with b-air. If you do it any further behind it's no longer a mixup with b-air because the opponent knows you can't b-air from there. You could get away with the Metal Blade if you b-reverse it to bounce away from your opponent but there's a chance you'll screw up either the b-reverse or aiming the Metal Blade.

You're vastly overstating b-air's reach. Any character taller than Mega Man has a good chance of having a Smash Attack with that range. You could argue that if you do it while rising you have time to move away before you land, but you're also giving them time to move towards you after shielding or use a laggier attack with more reach (e.g. Short hopped side B's out of shield, horizontal Up Bs).

 

[Locke 06]

Yeah, I think the problem here is we have 2 different definitions of "safe." If there is an option to punish, it's unsafe. Like doval said, if they know what is coming and know their options and cannot punish, it is safe. Similarily, safe on shield means if they shield it and know their options, they cannot punish.

You said "safe against most characters" so I think you understand that you cannot just blanket call this move safe.

Edit: I'm pretty sure the input for RCG is forward --> roll --> grab. And the grab interrupts the roll.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Yeah, I think the problem here is we have 2 different definitions of "safe." If there is an option to punish, it's unsafe. Like doval said, if they know what is coming and know their options and cannot punish, it is safe. Similarily, safe on shield means if they shield it and know their options, they cannot punish.

You said "safe against most characters" so I think you understand that you cannot just blanket call this move safe.

problem is... we're using the same definition of 'safe' and coming to different conclusions.

Empty SH is always safe with some distance because at any time the opponent does anything, you can react to it. I don't want to go too far down the well here, but if you are far enough away that opponent has to move to reach you, rather than just throwing an attack (which even then, you can react to), it's safe. It's not like by jumping, we're set to an arc where we can't act or adjust, so there's no justification for calling that unsafe or vulnerable. (even being high in the air isn't necessarily considered a bad position for MM, given his good aerial movement with rush jumping, etc)

And yes, I've carried that "against most characters" pretty consistently because there are exceptions to rules. However, because this is a "mega man's weaknesses" thread, I'm using as close to "average" conditions as I can get, so if a move is safe/good/whathaveyou against MOST of the cast but DK stomps it for whatever reason... that shouldn't really count as a weakness, instead of a matchup-specific thing. An inverse of this is something like the leaf shield footstool edgeguard. It's REALLY good against a small number of chars, so it just gets lumped into "edgeguarding options" for me, because you can't ever say it's a universally good idea.

So let me try once more for the bair discussion using actual examples. first off, I've been shorthanding a bit that could have led to some confusion, so I will go more in depth this time. Bair does have a disjoint at the edge, and all my posting is assuming good spacing by using the tip of the disjoint. The opponent's shield is a circle around them, so contact with the shield occurs at a larger radius than contact with the opponent. What this does for my discussion is essentially guarantee that the upper and lower slashes of bair connect with the shield, even if only the middle slash would hit the opponent. It also adds range to the shield pressure of the bair that wouldn't actually hit the opponent, but I'm mostly going to neglect that.

Assuming good timing and spacing, bair connects with the shield directly before landing, at the tip of its range. At this point, the opponent has ~20 frames of time to react and punish (for the sake of sanity, I am assuming that the time between when the bair hits and MM lands to be roughly equal to the shield stun that the hit inflicts on the opponent). The opponent has a minimum of 7 frames of lag to drop shield after the attack and punish. MM is currently outside of opponent grab range of anybody without a tether (tether doesn't have time to come out, either), and is about the range away of a decent sized smash attack.

Here's where my shorthand has come in. At this point, most chars A) don't have a single attack to reach MM without a dash first [which takes too long] or B) have an attack that will reach, but is too slow to come out at that range in 13 frames.

Example A) Lucario. He drops shield and can't run fast enough to reach MM, and doesn't have a reaching forward move (other than fsmash or force palm) to reach MM, and both of those are too slow to connect, so MM doesn't get punished. (there are quite a few other chars in this group, who have fast moves or ranged moves, but not both)

Example B) Ike, Ganon, Bowser, etc. Have a plethora of moves that would reach, but nothing fast enough to connect

Example C) Mario, Doc, Luigi, Peach, etc. Don't have moves that reach MM without moving. Can't move in time.

All that said, I KNOW THERE ARE EXCEPTIONS here. For example, I believe Samus can drop shield ftilt to punish... but again those are (imo) exceptions and not the rule for the "average" matchup.

 

[Doval]

Empty SH is always safe with some distance because at any time the opponent does anything, you can react to it. I don't want to go too far down the well here, but if you are far enough away that opponent has to move to reach you, rather than just throwing an attack (which even then, you can react to), it's safe.

I see what happened. I assumed you meant an empty jump at close range. E.g. Pretend you're going to aerial and then land and grab. An empty jump at a distance is safe but kind of irrelevant to the b-air discussion.

Ganondorf's d-tilt has crazy range and came out in 10 frames in Brawl. It's the same animation in Smash 4 so that probably still works. Ganon also has an interesting alternative now with up smash because it does massive shield damage and he might bait you into blocking.

I question the claim that most of the attackers can't reach. It only takes 2 frames to whip out an instant dash attack. Any dash attack of the "quick burst of movement, high recovery" variety poses a threat. Peach's hits on frame 6 in Brawl. Sheik's probably works too. ZSS and Link can just grab you straight up. Bowser can use Flying Fortress straight out of shield, so he has about 19 frames to reach, or he can short hop fire breath which is safe for him and forces you back. It's safe to assume C. Falcon, Sonic, and Fox have the speed to close the gap. Lucario's reach depends on %. Mario had a 3 frame up B in Brawl so he has 10 frames to get in range. Alternatively he has a 5 frame f-tilt, he might reach if he walks. Marth had a 5 frame Up B but more range. His d-tilt probably hits anyways. Every sane Kirby will run Jumping Inhale which is noteworthy because you can't shield it and you might still get pulled in by the wind box if you roll.

There's a lot of candidates for punishes.

 

[shinhed-echi]

I would have to play offline against someone, because I can't think of anything I'm doing wrong except bad attack timing due to lag.
But if I had to take a guess, sometimes I just.... run out of ideas when I'm close to my opponent. My gut reaction is to slide, because if I slide AT him, he gets knocked away, and if I slide AWAY from him, well, I managed to put some distance between us.

I think I'm using Fsmash way more than I should be, too.

 

[jhoon]

no neutral air

 

[Conda]

no neutral air

I miss my ftilt a lot too. I mean, mega buster as jab should've worked just like nair - activate it as a jab and then you're free to move with the control stick afterwards. Cause I'd like a ftilt please thanks. All I can really use instead for this purpose is dtilt, which can get preditable as it's our only good close-range 'get off me' option. Lemons don't doo enough hitstun and you can usually be punished after the third shot due to endlag if your opponent is in position to.

 

[Knight Dude]

I'm only a decent player at best. So I can't say I'd be the best to go in super deep detail. But I can say that one weakness is that I tend to Spam Forward Smash alot more than I should. Especially since Up-Smash and Up-Tilt are good K.O moves too.

 

[andilex]

there's a hit box on mega man neutral a on his blaster.

I think it's decent oos

 

[Fenrir VII]

RE: the bair discussion...

Here's a video of me vs a DDD that I think highlights what I am saying (I also just think this is an entertaining match - RazrX is really good). Now I get that DDD isn't exactly the "AVERAGE" character, but I think it's a decent showcase as I just abuse his shield with bair without getting punished (when spaced correctly).
He tried grab and dtilt but didn't come close. perhaps he had other options, but what I am saying is that I think it's safer on shield than speculation would allow.

Obviously we don't really have frame data to take into account specific shield stun, shield pushback, etc... but everything combines to make it a pretty useful tool. Take a look:

 

[ChopperDave]

Nice use of bair there.

My experience with bair is that it's safe on shield against certain characters, when spaced correctly due to the slight pushback, but it's not safe on dodge. You have to be careful against people who spot dodge to grab or another quick punish. And as @ D Doval says, characters like Bowser can hit you with powerful OOS attacks.

I personally prefer rising fair to falling uair approaches, because the fairs give you a nice lingering disjointed hit box while the multiple hits and windbox from uair covers most of your punishes. It also does more damage than bair approaches, as I find bair more useful for its knockback (which you don't want to stale) than its damage.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Nice use of bair there.

My experience with bair is that it's safe on shield against certain characters, when spaced correctly due to the slight pushback, but it's not safe on dodge. You have to be careful against people who spot dodge to grab or another quick punish. And as @ D Doval says, characters like Bowser can hit you with powerful OOS attacks.

I personally prefer rising fair to falling uair approaches, because the fairs give you a nice lingering disjointed hit box while the multiple hits and windbox from uair covers most of your punishes. It also does more damage than bair approaches, as I find bair more useful for its knockback (which you don't want to stale) than its damage.

Well typically, if somebody is prone to spot-dodge they'll punish me for something once. The next time, I'll bait the spot dodge and so-on so-forth. I usually space the bair enough that spot-dodge won't allow them to grab. They'll sometimes get something else out of it, but it's usually on the order of a dash attack or something that doesn't hurt THAT much. I'm honestly curious about whether spot dodge or just shield drop gives more frame advantage to them.

I had a Bowser try to OOS fortress me and I shielded before he got to me. Might be a single-case, but I'm not sure that one is true.

I'm not a huge fan of falling uair as an on-shield option, because they really can just shield-grab it, and I don't want to back off their shield to give them space. I agree with Fair but typically go with bair for 2 reasons: A) if it hits, it's more likely to setup an edgeguard opportunity (better knockback) and B) Fair is not great as a falling option, so essentially it limits you to nair as your best option for the 2nd attack (imo)

Also regarding stale moves... I have no data on which to make this claim, but this is how it feels to me.
In Brawl, the staling was very high... where if you hit an attack that would kill at like 2% higher than they currently were, then it WOULD NOT kill them next time you hit it, even though you did damage with the first attack. In this game, it seems a heck of a lot more mild to me... meaning, if I hit a bair and they ALMOST die.... then hitting another bair seems to kill them. Again I'm not sure if this is true, but it seems less impactful this time around.

 

[Locke 06]

RE: the bair discussion...

He tried grab and dtilt but didn't come close. perhaps he had other options, but what I am saying is that I think it's safer on shield than speculation would allow.

Not sure if you're changing your point or not... Comparatively, it is safer on shield than the majority of aerials in the game. No doubt, it's a great tool to mock-WoP as you showcase well. But the discussion was if it was "safe on shield," not if it is "safer on shield," which the former shouldn't really be tested in a real game where people care about winning. Like we established earlier, the opponent has to know what's coming, and their according options, and not be able to do anything in order for it to be safe on shield.

Also, you're using it much differently than I imagined. I thought you were landing right after the 3rd hit (reducing the time between the hit and your first actionable frame), but you're retreating in the air after the hit, which makes a big difference in terms of how much lag Mega takes before he can do anything after BAir.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Not sure if you're changing your point or not... Comparatively, it is safer on shield than the majority of aerials in the game. No doubt, it's a great tool to mock-WoP as you showcase well. But the discussion was if it was "safe on shield," not if it is "safer on shield," which the former shouldn't really be tested in a real game where people care about winning. Like we established earlier, the opponent has to know what's coming, and their according options, and not be able to do anything in order for it to be safe on shield.

Also, you're using it much differently than I imagined. I thought you were landing right after the 3rd hit (reducing the time between the hit and your first actionable frame), but you're retreating in the air after the hit, which makes a big difference in terms of how much lag Mega takes before he can do anything after BAir.

My quote was "safer than speculation would allow". Meaning yeah we can talk all day about "I think x or y would beat it", but nobody has any evidence (including me, to be fair) that isn't based in assumptions currently. My initial hypothesis was (and still is) that bair is safe on shield against most characters in this game. This obviously has a fair amount of mystery, as we don't currently have the shield stun or pushback values to determine it scientifically. So I'm arguing anecdotally... saying if I abuse good players with an attack and consistently do not get punished for it, then one of the following is true: A) the attack is safe or B) they are not punishing optimally. When I combine that with my speculation, it makes me believe that the attack is safe based on the range that I am away from the opponent once they can actually start to react (which is a larger distance than I think most people are aware of).

being an example of drifting away after the attack and

being an example of landing right after the attack

Both of these pictures were taken asap after his shield dropped. in the first, his grab just came out, in the second, he's starting his dtilt.
And considering we are discussing this for use in a real game where people are trying to win, I don't see your objection to using that as the testing ground. It's not as scientific, of course, but it is indicative of a real match.

I wanted to ask you about the statement "but you're retreating in the air after the hit, which makes a big difference in terms of how much lag Mega takes before he can do anything after BAir". What do you mean by that? is the landing lag actually different during different parts of the attack, or are you saying the attacker gets more frames to punish before MM lands?

 

[Locke 06]

My quote was "safer than speculation would allow". Meaning yeah we can talk all day about "I think x or y would beat it", but nobody has any evidence (including me, to be fair) that isn't based in assumptions currently. My initial hypothesis was (and still is) that bair is safe on shield against most characters in this game. This obviously has a fair amount of mystery, as we don't currently have the shield stun or pushback values to determine it scientifically. So I'm arguing anecdotally... saying if I abuse good players with an attack and consistently do not get punished for it, then one of the following is true: A) the attack is safe or B) they are not punishing optimally. When I combine that with my speculation, it makes me believe that the attack is safe based on the range that I am away from the opponent once they can actually start to react (which is a larger distance than I think most people are aware of).

Pics

Both of these pictures were taken asap after his shield dropped. in the first, his grab just came out, in the second, he's starting his dtilt.
And considering we are discussing this for use in a real game where people are trying to win, I don't see your objection to using that as the testing ground. It's not as scientific, of course, but it is indicative of a real match.

I wanted to ask you about the statement "but you're retreating in the air after the hit, which makes a big difference in terms of how much lag Mega takes before he can do anything after BAir". What do you mean by that? is the landing lag actually different during different parts of the attack, or are you saying the attacker gets more frames to punish before MM lands?

I'm unsure what you meant by "speculation would allow" because you can speculate anything. Speculation is making a hypothesis without evidence. That's why I left it out of your quote.

I don't see why you're leaning towards A rather than B. There are few situations where people are TAS perfect (optimal punish), and they might not know the matchup well enough to know what the optimal punish is (which leaves out any execution errors). You go on to say "it's not as scientific... but it is indicative of a real match," which is a problem when we're making a statement about optimal conditions (original hypothesis: BAir is always safe on shield against certain characters when spaced correctly). It's like saying converting a 7-10 split in bowling is impossible because nobody in your bowling league has converted one. It's not that they're not trying to win or that they're not good players, but they probably did not execute perfectly or know the way to do it.

We don't have the numbers to do this all theoretically, but we do have the ability to test the situation in a controlled environment. Testing against someone that is part of the testing process allows you to control both sides and be as perfect as you can be with the punish. This, I think we can agree, is better than testing against someone who you have no control over. Using high level matches, which are essentially case studies for your hypothesis, for a factual statement to be made like "bair is safe on shield against most characters," just doesn't make a lot of scientific sense. There are too many uncontrolled variables (namely the knowledge base and execution level of your opponent) to make that kind of conclusion. "Most characters have difficulty punishing a well spaced BAir" sounds like a solid conclusion from everything that you've said so far.

The landing lag isn't different (not to my knowledge), but there is that period of time between time of the last hit and the time that you land that gets added to the attacker's punish window. That time does not exist (or is minimized) if you land right after the last hit. (so the second of your two thoughts about what I meant)

Research is kind of my life... so that's why I'm enjoying/continuing this discussion. For use in game, I think you've hit the nail on the head in that it's a great WoP tool that is difficult to punish (whether that be impossible when spaced perfectly or just difficult).

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

There are some reflector moves that just seem too tough to punish. It's not groundbreaking, but I have to say reflector moves are a big hindrance to MM's neutral game. When fighting a ROB that spammed side B as a safety move, I had about had it when I fired a hard knuckle and missed his head, allowing it to come back up and strike me. Yes, I should always keep on the move during hard knuckle shots, but he's a moving target during the move, so I didn't have the easiest shot to make. Pit/Dark Pit can also read Mega Man's F smash with their side B that also sends them forward, affording no time for you to block your shot.

Alternatively, I feel like Mega Man excells on spacing characters like Marth and Zelda. By knowing their exact range, buster shot really screws with their playstyle when you space even further then them.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Going to split this up for simplicity.

I'm unsure what you meant by "speculation would allow" because you can speculate anything. Speculation is making a hypothesis without evidence. That's why I left it out of your quote.

Basically I was arguing against the main arguments I have seen in this thread which consisted of "such and such can probably beat it" I'm saying yeah, you can say that, but with experience, those things don't work. We don't know enough of the scientific data to correctly argue that at this point.

I don't see why you're leaning towards A rather than B. There are few situations where people are TAS perfect (optimal punish), and they might not know the matchup well enough to know what the optimal punish is (which leaves out any execution errors). You go on to say "it's not as scientific... but it is indicative of a real match," which is a problem when we're making a statement about optimal conditions (original hypothesis: BAir is always safe on shield against certain characters when spaced correctly). It's like saying converting a 7-10 split in bowling is impossible because nobody in your bowling league has converted one. It's not that they're not trying to win or that they're not good players, but they probably did not execute perfectly or know the way to do it.

I'm leaning towards (A) mainly because it has proved out in experience and the eye test shows that we can connect bair from freaking far away (even without the drift). The amount of time that players have to close that gap and throw an attack is limiting for most chars. I formed the opinion that I have by watching people fail to punish, and I really haven't been surprised by a punish yet. So it hasn't happened, and it seems from the timing like it can't. Those 2 things are why I believe A more.

We don't have the numbers to do this all theoretically, but we do have the ability to test the situation in a controlled environment. Testing against someone that is part of the testing process allows you to control both sides and be as perfect as you can be with the punish. This, I think we can agree, is better than testing against someone who you have no control over. Using high level matches, which are essentially case studies for your hypothesis, for a factual statement to be made like "bair is safe on shield against most characters," just doesn't make a lot of scientific sense. There are too many uncontrolled variables (namely the knowledge base and execution level of your opponent) to make that kind of conclusion. "Most characters have difficulty punishing a well spaced BAir" sounds like a solid conclusion from everything that you've said so far.

Got no problem with this paragraph, but I'm not going to be testing this any time soon.

The landing lag isn't different (not to my knowledge), but there is that period of time between time of the last hit and the time that you land that gets added to the attacker's punish window. That time does not exist (or is minimized) if you land right after the last hit. (so the second of your two thoughts about what I meant)

not sure it makes a sizable difference, as with the fade away, you're farther away. so which one is better is likely based on your opponent's run speed.

Research is kind of my life... so that's why I'm enjoying/continuing this discussion. For use in game, I think you've hit the nail on the head in that it's a great WoP tool that is difficult to punish (whether that be impossible when spaced perfectly or just difficult).

I'm perfectly fine with wrapping this discussion as "Bair is a great WoP tool that is difficult to punish (whether that be impossible when spaced perfectly or just difficult)."

 

[Doval]

RE: the bair discussion...

Here's a video of me vs a DDD that I think highlights what I am saying (I also just think this is an entertaining match - RazrX is really good). Now I get that DDD isn't exactly the "AVERAGE" character, but I think it's a decent showcase as I just abuse his shield with bair without getting punished (when spaced correctly).
He tried grab and dtilt but didn't come close. perhaps he had other options, but what I am saying is that I think it's safer on shield than speculation would allow.

Obviously we don't really have frame data to take into account specific shield stun, shield pushback, etc... but everything combines to make it a pretty useful tool. Take a look:

First, thanks for digging up some gameplay to back up your points, I respect that. Second, that was some nice Metal Blade usage.

That said, I don't think Dedede knew his options besides grabbing. He seemed fairly reluctant to do anything out of his shield, and even let a Flame Blast slide.

He did have one reasonably fast option that would've reached - forward tilt. I just tested it and it's a guaranteed punish on rising b-airs. It's hard for me to get conclusive results on falling b-airs on my own but it seems to work at least part of the time from max range, and if you screw up the spacing the hammer hits earlier on its way out. To have any chance of stopping it you'd have to commit to shielding since a roll would add another 3 frames of vulnerability and I think f-tilt has more active frames than what a sidestep would cover.

I don't disagree it's pretty hard to counter. When I wrote what I wrote I was thinking of top players that will know the matchup.

 

[digiholic]

I find it hard to finish off people who know about Mega Man's kill moves. I can get someone to high percent, and as long as they don't commit to a heavy attack and make sure to focus on shielding and spotdodging instead of rolling, I can't land an Upper or a Charge Shot to finish the deal. I've had games against fatties like Dedede where he's gone to 200% and above before I managed to get F-air to kill him.

 

[atom8bit]

Really, my main difficulty with him is that it's hard to recover. I get knocked around a lot
I'm a casual player though, and still - the blue bomber is by far my best character.

 

[PKPro]

one thing i hate greninja's up smash gets me everytime i want to recover

 

[Taokaka]

D-smash make megaman super vulnerable. He has a lot of ending lag. His uppercut is amazing but if not timed right you can get punished way hard. But overall, I think megaman is a pretty good character.

 

[YurtZoire]

As megaman, I feel that if you can catch me consistently between my arieals and my ground game by being right up in my face at that very moment and that you have good grab game to go with it, I'll have a hard time indeed.. Other than that, megaman is very well rounded with sharp aerials (his bair and fair) as well as many gimmicky maneuvers of which are voraciously complimented by his vast approach game along with his specials. He can zone around effectively, move on into ya when you're not ready and nail you with grabs, up smashes, bairs & fairs, and if I can get a read in the soft distance, a gnarly side smash! So yeah, definitely with megaman, I don't like when my opponent moves in on me while I'm just done nairing around or something of that sort.. Nope, no good..

 

[xIvan321]

its neither reflectors or fast characters, because I can always keep up with them easily. For me my kryptonite seems to be high priority projectile spam and here were talking Spamus for example. The life in me has a really hard time when an opponent makes it his whole damn game.

 

[p1ay6ack]

my biggest weakness is not being able to short hop conistently. i use y to jump and a to shoot, and it makes my button input weird and clunky, cuz im using my thumb to both shoot and jump, and its hard

 

[Twewy]

My weakness is Water Balloon.

On a more serious note, I feel my weakness is the limitations of being stuck to the 3DS version and its controls. I constantly find myself doing moves I don't mean to or missing my Metal Blade completely. I'll go for an up tilt and suddenly being doing an uair.

 

[Red Shirt KRT]

My weakness I think is not changing up my strategy enough. It seems the first game I get the win and try and do the same thing for the next 2 games and they catch on to it and punish me for it.

 

[Drippy]

I have tons of weaknesses and I have a list of what they are. In short it's my punish game is weak, I have a rolling habit, I don't learn at enemy's weaknesses thus I adapt poorly, and I'm still get used to the game's controls overall and will often put in the wrong input.

my biggest weakness is not being able to short hop conistently. i use y to jump and a to shoot, and it makes my button input weird and clunky, cuz im using my thumb to both shoot and jump, and its hard

Dude that's me too and it's really difficult for me. I'm still trying to practice it as well as short hopping with the shoulder button which is the hardest of it all.

 

[Fenrir]

Dropping a shield only takes 7 frames

Apparently it's 11 frames in this game. Doesn't necessarily negate what you're saying but I'm just pointing that out.

Edit: Also I guess that was a pretty old post. Apparently I'm bad at reading timestamps on this forum.

 

[Funkermonster]

My weakness is that I go for grabs too often, and my inability to perform Fullhop Metal Blade > Utilt

 

[Drippy]

My weakness is that I go for grabs too often, and my inability to perform Fullhop Metal Blade > Utilt

I was actually practicing this today and trying to get used to learning the range of the Metal Blade in training mode. Seems so essential to playing Mega Man considering how big a kill option up tilt is.