Media Chimes in on Competitive Smash (Prima Games)

[DrDogg]

The second issue is that there's very little advanced movement in the game. In Smash Melee, players use meticulous hand movements to create what is referred to as "wave dashing" or "dash dancing". The simplest explanation is that players can use advanced movement to drastically increase both the speed and agility of the characters in the game. This is a technique that is not present in Brawl, and one of the many reasons Melee is heavily favored among the competitive community.

When it comes down to it, the new Smash plays more like Brawl than Melee, and that's awkward from competitive standpoint.

http://www.primagames.com/games/sup...intendo-can-make-smash-bros-wii-u-competitive

Thoughts on this?

A follow-up article can be written, and will have more visibility at Nintendo than some of the posts here. Just want to make sure the "big" issues are addressed. By big, I mean things that actually have a chance of being changed before release.

 

[Mr. KoopaTurtle]

I somewhat agree with this article. I believe that some form of advanced movement should be present, but I'm fine with the falling speed. However, Smash 4 is a completely new Smash game and, regardless of being along the lines of Brawl, it has a new feel to it. The ledge mechanics have been revamped among other things, and old and new types of skills are encouraged. You really can't go into this game expecting Brawl 2.0 or Melee 2.0. It's Smash 4. Sure, there's things that definitely can be improved on, but the game is still promising as it is now.

It looks fun. I enjoy Melee, Brawl, and 64, so sign me up for Smash 4. I'm more hyped for this game than ever.

 

[ryuu seika]

Seriously? "add the advanced movement back into the game."?!

Returning Melee's physics flaws is not the answer and while I see nothing wrong with dash dancing as such, nor do I feel it would be a major boon here as it would only allow Kirby to fail at approaching without getting hit, rather than creating openings.
The answer is not to add unnecessary input complexity either, it's to work with existing game mechanics to produce better options. For example, allowing movement to be cancelled quickly into a roll that would let Kirby get through the attack.

Interestingly, while not relevant to the game as a whole, Kirby's Melee dash attack would have allowed him to plough through Samus' attacks and force her to take damage. It would not have left him unhurt but it would have left him in a more favourable position from which to continue the fight.

 

[Mr. KoopaTurtle]

Seriously? "add the advanced movement back into the game."?!

Returning Melee's physics flaws is not the answer and while I see nothing wrong with dash dancing as such, nor do I feel it would be a major boon here as it would only allow Kirby to fail at approaching without getting hit, rather than creating openings.
The answer is not to add unnecessary input complexity either, it's to work with existing game mechanics to produce better options. For example, allowing movement to be cancelled quickly into a roll that would let Kirby get through the attack.

Interestingly, while not relevant to the game as a whole, Kirby's Melee dash attack would have allowed him to plough through Samus' attacks and force her to take damage. It would not have left him unhurt but it would have left him in a more favourable position from which to continue the fight.

This is pretty much how I feel. Instead of trying to add more to this game, we should work with the options we have at our disposal now. If something is truly in desperate need of being changed, reworked, or improved, then it'll be suggested at some point or another. The games will be analyzed deeply upon release, and new tactics may be found. Right now, I trust Sakurai and his team in what they're doing with this game.

 

[RODO]

I think the game needs a little something that entices the competitive crowd myself.

 

[ryuu seika]

This is pretty much how I feel. Instead of trying to add more to this game, we should work with the options we have at our disposal now. If something is truly in desperate need of being changed, reworked, or improved, then it'll be suggested at some point or another. The games will be analyzed deeply upon release, and new tactics may be found. Right now, I trust Sakurai and his team in what they're doing with this game.

There appears to be a subtle difference between our viewpoints here.
You sound as though you think we should stick with the game, regardless of any flaws, and not ask for changes. I feel that, since Nintendo is actively listening, there is no reason not to be vocal about our concerns, so long as we ask for the right things. As is, however, I'm just seeing a community that's stuck in its ways and wants Melee back. I'm sure Nintendo sees that too.

I do see the grand finals we saw at E3 as demonstrating a gameplay flaw and, while it's possible the game as it is could provide answers if we had more time to study it, it's also possible that it wouldn't. Allowing such an unending defensive wall with no punishment options, even in specific character matchups, is a problem and, unless the fix is already in place and we just haven't found it, something needs to be done.

Where I diverge from the article, however, is on the nature of what needs to be done. Adding in complex hand motions for simple actions is not only needlessly awkward but also against the very concept of smash, a game designed with control scheme simplicity in mind. Adding in new movement mechanics also strikes me as overconvoluting gameplay.

If we are to see movement options that get round problems like this, they should be derived from existing mechanics and the roll, being a mechanic with a lot of untapped potential and little current use, seems like the perfect choice.

That said, dash turnaround tilts in all directions have already been proven to exist. Maybe dash turnaround shields and rolls will too and they will solve everything.

 

[Ulevo]

I think the game needs a little something that entices the competitive crowd myself.

What the game needs is for Sakurai to stop removing important game mechanics without replacing them with other, equally meaningful mechanics.

There appears to be a subtle difference between our viewpoints here.
You sound as though you think we should stick with the game, regardless of any flaws, and not ask for changes. I feel that, since Nintendo is actively listening, there is no reason not to be vocal about our concerns, so long as we ask for the right things. As is, however, I'm just seeing a community that's stuck in its ways and wants Melee back. I'm sure Nintendo sees that too.

I do see the grand finals we saw at E3 as demonstrating a gameplay flaw and, while it's possible the game as it is could provide answers if we had more time to study it, it's also possible that it wouldn't. Allowing such an unending defensive wall with no punishment options, even in specific character matchups, is a problem and, unless the fix is already in place and we just haven't found it, something needs to be done.

Where I diverge from the article, however, is on the nature of what needs to be done. Adding in complex hand motions for simple actions is not only needlessly awkward but also against the very concept of smash, a game designed with control scheme simplicity in mind. Adding in new movement mechanics also strikes me as overconvoluting gameplay.

If we are to see movement options that get round problems like this, they should be derived from existing mechanics and the roll, being a mechanic with a lot of untapped potential and little current use, seems like the perfect choice.

That said, dash turnaround tilts in all directions have already been proven to exist. Maybe dash turnaround shields and rolls will too and they will solve everything.

I'm interested to know what you think are complex mechanics versus simple ones. Because if you believe complex movements pertain to just wavedashing, or think that dash dancing is complicated without value, and yet you condemn Melee as having unnecessary physics with value, quite frankly I'm not impressed.

 

[Cassio]

http://www.primagames.com/games/sup...intendo-can-make-smash-bros-wii-u-competitive

Thoughts on this?

A follow-up article can be written, and will have more visibility at Nintendo than some of the posts here. Just want to make sure the "big" issues are addressed. By big, I mean things that actually have a chance of being changed before release.

Are you a writer there or just someone posting the link here?

I think its fairly inaccurate. The game has plenty of movement options, in this specific case the disagreement is on whether or not dashing should or shouldnt require a commitment. In melee dashing requires very little commitment, in Brawl its something you have to think about. Its hard to tell with the new game though what else may be useful in terms of movement or defensive options.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

There appears to be a subtle difference between our viewpoints here.
You sound as though you think we should stick with the game, regardless of any flaws, and not ask for changes. I feel that, since Nintendo is actively listening, there is no reason not to be vocal about our concerns, so long as we ask for the right things. As is, however, I'm just seeing a community that's stuck in its ways and wants Melee back. I'm sure Nintendo sees that too.

I do see the grand finals we saw at E3 as demonstrating a gameplay flaw and, while it's possible the game as it is could provide answers if we had more time to study it, it's also possible that it wouldn't. Allowing such an unending defensive wall with no punishment options, even in specific character matchups, is a problem and, unless the fix is already in place and we just haven't found it, something needs to be done.

Where I diverge from the article, however, is on the nature of what needs to be done. Adding in complex hand motions for simple actions is not only needlessly awkward but also against the very concept of smash, a game designed with control scheme simplicity in mind. Adding in new movement mechanics also strikes me as overconvoluting gameplay.

If we are to see movement options that get round problems like this, they should be derived from existing mechanics and the roll, being a mechanic with a lot of untapped potential and little current use, seems like the perfect choice.

That said, dash turnaround tilts in all directions have already been proven to exist. Maybe dash turnaround shields and rolls will too and they will solve everything.

Love the post, wish it would happen.

But you won't convince people who are addicted to complexity. Some people view simplicity as taboo, or horrible, which confuses me as they still play Smash...

 

[RODO]

Are you a writer there or just someone posting the link here?

I think its fairly inaccurate. The game has plenty of movement options, in this specific case the disagreement is on whether or not dashing should or shouldnt require a commitment. In melee dashing requires very little commitment, in Brawl its something you have to think about. Its hard to tell with the new game though what else may be useful in terms of movement or defensive options.

Having a commitment sounds like it gives dashing more depth and makes it a good thing, but really it just slows down the pace of the game it makes it slightly less enjoyable to watch (opinion). As someone who started playing Brawl competitively but never really got into Melee I can tell you right now that watching Melee matches were far more enjoyable.

 

[ImaClubYou]

I feel the devs should add these techs in a natural way. Seeing Peach doing wavedashes is weird. Seeing anyone do a wavedash other than maybe Mewtwo is weird.

If they implemented advanced techs in a way that looked natural, is intentional, and had official names I'd be down for it.

 

[Cassio]

Having a commitment sounds like it gives dashing more depth and makes it a good thing, but really it just slows down the pace of the game it makes it slightly less enjoyable to watch (opinion).

Those arent exclusive statements. In any case, pace is determined by the ratio of offense to defense. Its hard to say what that ratio may be yet, but something like ICs chaingrabs being removed would already push the game to move faster.

 

[RODO]

Those arent exclusive statements. In any case, pace is determined by the ratio of offense to defense. Its hard to say what that ratio may be yet, but something like ICs chaingrabs being removed would already push the game to move faster.

Obviously IC's chaingrab needs to go away, but I'm just talking about movement in general. Movement options=easier to follow up on combos=faster pace in general. If the game gets reset to the neutral game too much then the game inevitably slows down.

 

[Mr. KoopaTurtle]

There appears to be a subtle difference between our viewpoints here.
You sound as though you think we should stick with the game, regardless of any flaws, and not ask for changes. I feel that, since Nintendo is actively listening, there is no reason not to be vocal about our concerns, so long as we ask for the right things. As is, however, I'm just seeing a community that's stuck in its ways and wants Melee back. I'm sure Nintendo sees that too.

I do see the grand finals we saw at E3 as demonstrating a gameplay flaw and, while it's possible the game as it is could provide answers if we had more time to study it, it's also possible that it wouldn't. Allowing such an unending defensive wall with no punishment options, even in specific character matchups, is a problem and, unless the fix is already in place and we just haven't found it, something needs to be done.

Where I diverge from the article, however, is on the nature of what needs to be done. Adding in complex hand motions for simple actions is not only needlessly awkward but also against the very concept of smash, a game designed with control scheme simplicity in mind. Adding in new movement mechanics also strikes me as overconvoluting gameplay.

If we are to see movement options that get round problems like this, they should be derived from existing mechanics and the roll, being a mechanic with a lot of untapped potential and little current use, seems like the perfect choice.

That said, dash turnaround tilts in all directions have already been proven to exist. Maybe dash turnaround shields and rolls will too and they will solve everything.

No no no, I still think we should receive some changes to this game, but the game can still be analyzed in search for new types of options. I wasn't trying to say this game is not in need of receiving changes. I know Nintendo is listening and received feedback at e3, and I'm grateful for that. It isn't necessary to return to Melee physics though, as the article implied.

 

[Cassio]

"Movement options" or more specifically having tons of ways to cancel your dash are just a subset of offensive play that gives the game a faster pace, which must be measured against defensive play. Theres a lot of elements that come into play here.

The reason I gave ICs as an example is because removing their chaingrab isnt a change in movement options, but will definitely increase the games pace.

 

[RODO]

"Movement options" or more specifically having tons of ways to cancel your dash are just a subset of offensive play that gives the game a faster pace, which must be measured against defensive play. Theres a lot of elements that come into play here.

The reason I gave ICs as an example is because removing their chaingrab isnt a change in movement options, but will definitely increase the games pace.

The game definitely needs some work though. It already seems to be in the same vein as brawl which rewards defensive play more. There is nothing wrong with playing defensive but if it's too powerful then people abuse it and in turn slow down the game.

That grand finals at e3 where Zero camped for the win and people boo'ed in the crowd just goes to show what people think of the strat (and the crowd was filled with mostly just casual smashers). We know that Nintendo is already trying to get Smash 4 on the MLG circuit but you can't have a super defensive game and an exciting to watch one as well in most cases. At some point you have to reward people for getting hits. Just something as simple as being able to dash dance or cancel your dash with a crouch would go a long way. Not even asking for wavedashing here.

 

[Cassio]

Its no secret people dont enjoy camping, even when m2k does it in melee people go bananas.

That being said those arguing the game is too defensive arent really good enough to say that. I dont mean the people who are just repeating what they hear but the ones who actually felt they were able to tell. Yeah it doesnt have some of melees movement options, but you also have things like projectiles seeminly nerfed universally, and as I said in another thread no ones even able to buffer yet and already the game seems to have more combos than Brawl.

One last thing. Years ago when items were removed from melee the argument against it was the game would become too campy, and used evidence of a 24 minute match that happened before the timer with items off. Its hard to tell how the games mechanics will affect gameplay forsure. However all evidence points to it being more aggressive in general, even without melee dash cancels.

 

[smashbro29]

It just needs less float, auto cancelled aerials (like every other fighting game ever) momentum from runs into jumps, landing on the knees and dashdancing.

 

[ImaClubYou]

I don't know how good an example the GF's at the invitational is. Kirby vs. ZSS could purely be a bad match up or that's just how you're supposed to play the match up. These are inescapable situations in all Smash games like Jigglypuff time outs with Young Link or the recent one with Soft vs. Shroomed. I'm sure everyone who played to the clock were thinking the same thing, "I could go offensive, but why should I?" There were plenty of times when ZeRo got off a ton of hits on Kirby, and Kirby could've done the same thing. In fact, camping wasn't largely present until last stock.

So can we base this entire game off of the GF's? No. U don't think so.

I'm sure if we had Fox Vs. Greninja the set would've been so much more offensive!

 

[TimeSmash]

Well I think we can all agree weird things from Brawl like hitstun cancelling should be completely removed. But there are other things like Wavebouncing that did help add to the complexity of Brawl, albeit the game was still slower.

Maybe we need a new movement option that had as much sway as wavedashing did for Melee. No idea as to what that could be of the top of my head, but some kind of variable that all characters could perform, with different outputs (think of how every character had WDs of varying lengths)

We actually have some sway this time around, Nintendo is clearly listening to us and there's a lot of things patching could help with. So a word to the wise is for us to keep communicating with them after the game's release, and work together with them to make a game that we [both] agree is competitively viable.

I feel like this comes off a little stuffy haha. That's not my intention at all here

 

[WastingPenguins]

One last thing. Years ago when items were removed from melee the argument against it was the game would become too campy, and used evidence of a 24 minute match that happened before the timer with items off. Its hard to tell how the games mechanics will affect gameplay forsure. However all evidence points to it being more aggressive in general, even without melee dash cancels.

These pre-Melee analogies I keep hearing are so useless. At the beginning of Melee we had a few years worth of knowledge for ONE Smash game, with no competitive community to speak of. Now we have much more than a decade's worth of knowledge about how THREE different Smash games work (four if you count Project M), and mountains of evidence for how different kinds of mechanics affect competitive gameplay. There's just no comparison. Granted there is obviously a lot to discover about this new game, but the point stands.

 

[ryuu seika]

I'm interested to know what you think are complex mechanics versus simple ones. Because if you believe complex movements pertain to just wavedashing, or think that dash dancing is complicated without value, and yet you condemn Melee as having unnecessary physics with value, quite frankly I'm not impressed.

I never once said anything about complicated mechanics.

I said that too many different movement mechanics would resulting in overconvolution and leave the game with a lack of focus, probably making several of those mechanics redundant and worthless.

I also said something about complicated hand motions. What I am referring to is how certain actions such as wavedashing require the user to input precisely timed strings of buttons and stick motions that present a physical rather than skill based barrier to competition. This is a staple of many other fighting games but Smash has been designed to get full movesets out of single button inputs and, in my view atleast, that is an elegant design that lets anyone play, without detracting from more advanced usage. Dash dancing, does require a little timing precision but with only one stick and no buttons, it hardly seems like a problem but nor does it seem amazingly useful.

Wave dashing adds options and is pretty game changing but its inputs are overcomplicated and it is an exploit of the physics of the game. Yes, dodges into the ground were meant to keep some momentum for the sake of realism. No, they were not meant to be done straight out of the jump animation to replace and even add movement options.

Hypothetically, the ability to cancel movement into a directional ground dodge in any direction (including upwards) would fill most of the wave dash's roles with less "technical skill" barrier and a more natural animation, whilst also using existing mechanics to fulfil your movement option desires.
Personally, I would be inclined to further limit this dodge to being either in the direction of motion or down though platforms so as to keep it from opening the game up too much. I believe approach to back dodge would be too easy a fake out and remove too much of the commitment approaching should entail, whereas a short forward dodge would give just enough invincibility to pass though attacks if timed properly while still giving the attack user full knowledge of the approacher's trajectory.

 

[LancerStaff]

How seriously Nintendo will take these complaints depends on what Japan thinks of Melee vs Brawl. Really, what's considered better in Japan?

 

[Mr. KoopaTurtle]

How seriously Nintendo will take these complaints depends on what Japan thinks of Melee vs Brawl. Really, what's considered better in Japan?

I think this all comes down to Masahiro Sakurai. I think we all know some things that could be improved upon, but it all depends on if Sakurai wants to make those said changes.

 

[SKM_NeoN]

Wave dashing adds options and is pretty game changing but its inputs are overcomplicated and it is an exploit of the physics of the game. Yes, dodges into the ground were meant to keep some momentum for the sake of realism. No, they were not meant to be done straight out of the jump animation to replace and even add movement options.

Air dodging was designed to be usable at any point of your jump animation. Implying otherwise is simply wrong.

I also don't see how the input is overcomplicated. Jump, airdodge diagonally. How can it be simpler?

 

[Cassio]

These pre-Melee analogies I keep hearing are so useless. At the beginning of Melee we had a few years worth of knowledge for ONE Smash game, with no competitive community to speak of. Now we have much more than a decade's worth of knowledge about how THREE different Smash games work (four if you count Project M), and mountains of evidence for how different kinds of mechanics affect competitive gameplay. There's just no comparison. Granted there is obviously a lot to discover about this new game, but the point stands.

Actually, no. The analogy is very fitting, especially because as you mentioned theres a lot to discover and theres really no way of knowing how the game will blend together. On top of that theres maybe a handful of people who understand how all the games work competitively, none of whom are those that stuck with just melee.

 

[Pazzo.]

I think the game needs a little something that entices the competitive crowd myself.

Nintendo could care a lot less about the competitive scene, and with the increased speed and who-knows-what tricks in the final game, I don't think we should be complaining.

People are going to buy the game regardless of how competitive it is.

 

[ryuu seika]

I also don't see how the input is overcomplicated. Jump, airdodge diagonally. How can it be simpler?

It's two buttons and a stick with a fast and very precise timing window where the move becomes vastly less useful if performed too late or at the wrong angle. It's harder to pull off than many true command moves from other fighters and that is quite the juxtaposition with Smash's other controls.

 

[LancerStaff]

I think this all comes down to Masahiro Sakurai. I think we all know some things that could be improved upon, but it all depends on if Sakurai wants to make those said changes.

What I'm getting at is that Sakurai would be more influenced by the Japanese players then us. If they prefer Brawl, then SSB4 is about as offensive as SSB will ever get.

 

[EPsilon933]

What if dodge rolling got replaced with something like a wavedash? It'd be easy for casuals to do and it'd open up ground spacing options for the competitive players

 

[LancerStaff]

What if dodge rolling got replaced with something like a wavedash? It'd be easy for casuals to do and it'd open up ground spacing options for the competitive players

I'd rather keep rolling.

 

[smashbro29]

I'd rather keep rolling.

What if it still looked exactly like rolling?

 

[Mr. KoopaTurtle]

What I'm getting at is that Sakurai would be more influenced by the Japanese players then us. If they prefer Brawl, then SSB4 is about as offensive as SSB will ever get.

Well that wouldn't align with Sakurai's words. He talks about attempting to cater to all and any fanbases, so why would he be more influenced by other countries' input on the matter?

 

[SKM_NeoN]

It's two buttons and a stick with a fast and very precise timing window where the move becomes vastly less useful if performed too late or at the wrong angle. It's harder to pull off than many true command moves from other fighters and that is quite the juxtaposition with Smash's other controls.

I still don't see how you propose they make this command simpler. Not to mention you make this process sound a lot harder to execute than it actually is. This line of thinking that the utter depths of what a game has to offer should be limited to what your senile grandmother can understand is baffling to me.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

Honestly whenever I see melee fanatics complaining about pace and movement options I imagine a call of duty player at a chess tournament standing up during a match screaming "Damnit! Why can't there be more movement options! The pace of the game is so slow!".

 

[WastingPenguins]

Honestly whenever I see melee fanatics complaining about pace and movement options I imagine a call of duty player at a chess tournament standing up during a match screaming "Damnit! Why can't there be more movement options! The pace of the game is so slow!".

LOL maybe because in chess there are so many movement options that only the best players in the world can really wrap their heads aroudn the true depths of the game? Melee is chess, Brawl is checkers; the latter still has a REALLY high skill ceiling for the most dedicated players, and noobs will still get stomped, but cmon, checkers is ****ing boring.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

I still don't see how you propose they make this command simpler. Not to mention you make this process sound a lot harder to execute than it actually is. This line of thinking that the utter depths of what a game has to offer should be limited to what your senile grandmother can understand is baffling to me.

The arrogance in this post is literally staggering. It's so arrogant that...I ain't even mad. Dude, you must some sort of master troll. Hats off to you and such.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

LOL maybe because in chess there are so many movement options that only the best players in the world can really wrap their heads aroudn the true depths of the game? Melee is chess, Brawl is checkers; the latter still has a REALLY high skill ceiling for the most dedicated players, and noobs will still get stomped, but cmon, checkers is ****ing boring.

Well aside from the fact comparing smash to chess or checkers is absurd (It's just a silly imaginative thought in my head), trying to insist that Brawl has limited movement options analogous to Melee : Brawl is stupid anyway.

You lost Wavedashing and gained repeated air dodging. You lost dash dancing and you got other things like foot-stooling. The trades are there, you just don't value them because you don't even bother playing Brawl.

 

[Deleted member]

It makes me rather sad that people are trying to change a game into something they want in order to meet their own selfish desires before it even comes out. About how many people criticizing the game have even played it? I'm not saying it's perfect, but c'mon. It's a beta. Just let the team handle it, and you can bash the game after it comes out, hopefully after trying it at least once.

Or better yet, don't bash the game, and let those who like it, like it. Smash 4 does not delete Melee from existence. People seem to act like it does.

 

[WastingPenguins]

Well aside from the fact comparing smash to chess or checkers is absurd (It's just a silly imaginative thought in my head), trying to insist that Brawl has limited movement options analogous to Melee : Brawl is stupid anyway.

You lost Wavedashing and gained repeated air dodging. You lost dash dancing and you got other things like foot-stooling. The trades are there, you just don't value them because you don't even bother playing Brawl.

Yeah, footstooling really contributed a lot to the metagame, right? Go watch a recent Brawl grand finals match at a major tournament and count how many footstools you see. You know what you do see? Players staring each other down and spamming their safest moves in place until one of them gets bored and commits to a risky approach and gets punished to hell for it. Check out Esam vs. Armada from earlier this month and tell me that's not what this game is about: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mijuVqioX-4#t=1073