Q&A Mechanics & Techniques Discussion

[Shieldlesscap]

So I was trying to get the hang of perfect pivoting a while ago, but I kept doing this thing where I would run in a direction, turn around, and stay in my running animation for a few frames moving at normal walk speed. I recently perfected this technique, where if you tap one direction while perfect pivoting and then smash the second direction, I would stay in the dash animation. It's kind of hard to explain, but I can use it to slip between attacks that would hit be if I used a regular dash-grab/dash-attack. I'll have video footage of it by tomorrow, but I'm just wondering if someone has already discovered this, and what it's called? If not, I'll call it a delayed dash, or D-Dash for short.

 

[Shieldlesscap]

Sorry I'm late, but I got a video up showing this off a bit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIGiVG5loQU&feature=youtu.be

 

[v3ga]

I don't know if it's necessarily "new" tech but its definitely interesting...I'm not sure how much actual usefulness it would have outside of characters with good dashes and quick startup out of dash options like but pretty neat

 

[Shieldlesscap]

I don't know if it's necessarily "new" tech but its definitely interesting...I'm not sure how much actual usefulness it would have outside of characters with good dashes and quick startup out of dash options like but pretty neat

I feel like you can also use it as a ledge punish, since up-smash and jump don't get a boost like dash grab and dash attack. So if they role, you dash, other wise you down smash.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

It's not a new tech you essentially just do a fake out dash. I've seen Salem do it before (He even did it to me in a FG game I ran into him on and completely baited me) and I've seen Luigi's do it for ever now. It's still a decent mixup for characters with good options out of dash. Like with Falcon his dash grab is such a threat you can do this to bait a reaction then go in with a actual dash grab to punish the reaction.

 

[Crystanium]

It's not new. I've been doing it instead of perfect pivoting when I've been trying to perfect pivot.

 

[Shieldlesscap]

It's not new. I've been doing it instead of perfect pivoting when I've been trying to perfect pivot.

I knew it wasn't a new tech, I just didn't know if other people knew you could use it to delay a dash attack or grab.

 

[Virgman]

This is a cool tech. Definitely seen this before, the first year the game came out. At that time, they were calling it something to the effect of Sticky Run. I believe it's most obvious with C. Falcon, so doing it with him in your video was a good choice.

 

[Vipermoon]

I simply call it a Moonwalk since I first saw it shortly after the game's release on C. Falcon who is famous for Moonwalks in another Smash game.

 

[Ulevo]

Has the formula for perfect shield's shield stun been found? Do we know if it is a 25% reduction for certain?

 

[Celestial EnZy]

Does anyone know if it's possible to Meteor Cancel in this game? I have yet to see one pulled off.

i personally haven't seen it or experienced it, any meteor smash's i dished out usually ends in death.

-----------

whenever being knocked back, pressing A before hitting the ground seems to cancel any animation upon landing, why is that?

 

[BSP]

Trying to make sure I understand punishing moves on block.

So if your shield is hit and you want to do a Usmash or Uspecial OOS, best case jump cancelling has you go through 1F of jumpsquat before the move starts up correct?

@Myollnir said he didn't see any jumpsquat when he tested a bayonetta witch twist OOS vs a Marth jab I believe. Does that 1F only apply if you went through block stun?

Second, lets say I want to drop shield and do a dash grab. Am I correct in thinking that if I buffer the actions ASAP, I'll dash for 1F then my grab starts? Same question for Dash attacks. I actually try to base my punishes on the frame data, so I need to actually know when my stuff will make contact.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Technically you don't need to wait for the first frame of the jumpsquat. The Jump and U-smash/Up-B inputs can be made on the same frame and will still result in an U-smash/Up-B OoS, just in the case of U-smash obviously you'd need to have let go of shield to avoid a grab. Due to the nature of buffering in smash 4 though this is just very difficult if you're trying to do it on the first possible frame out of shieldstun. But he's right.

Yes. Just note that the way it works is slightly different with dash grabs and dash attacks because dash attacks need to use the instant dash attack AT to be used on what would have been the second frame of your dash.

 

[Deleted member]

Thanks! This helped!

 

[DanGR]

Technically you don't need to wait for the first frame of the jumpsquat. The Jump and U-smash/Up-B inputs can be made on the same frame and will still result in an U-smash/Up-B OoS, just in the case of U-smash obviously you'd need to have let go of shield to avoid a grab. Due to the nature of buffering in smash 4 though this is just very difficult if you're trying to do it on the first possible frame out of shieldstun. But he's right.

Yes. Just note that the way it works is slightly different with dash grabs and dash attacks because dash attacks need to use the instant dash attack AT to be used on what would have been the second frame of your dash.

Just for clarification, you're saying for jump cancel upsmash out of shield that you don't incur 1 frame of jumpsquat before beginning the upsmash startup?

And for dash attacks, you must go through 1f of dashing before dash attack startup begins?

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Yes.
And yes.

 

[Ulevo]

Does anyone know if increased base damage on shields has an effect on whether there is more shield stun when an attack connects?

i.e. Bayonetta's dash attack does 10 damage, but also does +1, so 11, to shields according to Kurogane Hammer. So using the formula of (X/1.72)+2, would X in this case be 10 or 11?

 

[Vipermoon]

Does anyone know if increased base damage on shields has an effect on whether there is more shield stun when an attack connects?

i.e. Bayonetta's dash attack does 10 damage, but also does +1, so 11, to shields according to Kurogane Hammer. So using the formula of (X/1.72)+2, would X in this case be 10 or 11?

It does not increase shield stun at all. Elsewise Shield Breaker would be safe on shield.

 

[Ulevo]

In terms of shield stun for moves like Corrin's Dragon Lunge and Bayonetta's smash attacks, because they act like projectiles and can be clanked, how does the shield stun formula apply to them? Does it use the projectile formula, or formula for conventional hitboxes? What about Zero Suit Samus or Pikachu's electric attacks or Charizard fire attacks? Any differences?

 

[vegeta18]

so i know in melee there are 352 different possible angles, is that the same thing for smash 4?

 

[ruhroe]

Would this be an accurate representation of how Bayonetta's Jab 1 looks when shielded on frame 4?

I used the Smash calculator, along with some source.

Looking at the numbers in calculator and source, 14 frames total for OOS options, 7 frames total for shield drop options (I guess meaning during the 5 remaining shield lock frames for OOS options, and the 2 advantage frames for any option after dropping shield)

If this isn't how anything I mentioned on this post works, would anybody care to make a similar visual? Or refer me to a similar visual?

 

[Lavani]

Shield lock frames are still OOS advantage. Shield lock only prevents you from dropping the shield, not grabbing/jumping/etc.

 

[busken]

Is there a way I can test the speed of my character's perfect pivot frame by frame? I want to see how fast they displace themselves after every frame.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

If I was gonna do it I'd use frame skipping to PP on a specific frame from a specific spot with the camera perhaps fixed, then use a detailed measuring source (which will be stage specific; be imaginative) e.g. on the ground to note where the character's most extended hurtbox aligns with every two frames, and then do the same on the negative frames if it's important to you that you see the movement every frame.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

So you know that rule that says you can't drop shield for 11 frames (i.e. dropping it on frame 12 at the earliest)? Well as it turns out, a different rule applies when the shield is hit. Counting all the frames the shield is up including the frame that the shield is hit and the shield-stun frames (i.e. only excluding the shield-hitlag frames), when your shield is hit you can't drop shield for 10 frames only (i.e. dropping it on frame 11 at the earliest).

To put it another way, if you just shield and let go of your shield, and nothing hits your shield, the shield will be up for 11 frames minimum, but when a shield is hit (discounting shield hitlag frames only) the minimum is 10 frames, not 11 like what we all assumed it would be.

What this means is, so long as the move used does not induce more than 7 frames of shield-stun, and assuming that it hits the shield early enough (frame 4 at the earliest to avoid the powershield), that move will be 1 frame less safe on shield against shield drop counters than we realised.

 

[ぱみゅ]

So means, from ruhroe's example:

The first Advantage on shield drop from Bayo's jab would be frame 23 instead of 24?

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

I was able to start a shield drop action on frame 23 in that example, yes. I then tested other examples making sure the moves used were no different in training mode.

 

[HOO HAH]

This might be a very noobish question but the only bad question is the question not asked so...

Let's say I'm facing left and I do an up special is there a way I can land facing the right without having to do a b-reverse?

I have seen this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xsFEHdGfsQ but it only works with doc, luigi, little mac, and mario

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Kind of a loaded question but I'll try unpack it for you.
It depends on the character, sort of.

The characters you mentioned (except for mac, not sure why you mentioned mac) were designed to be able to do this, so they were given training wheels so to speak which gives them more time to make the B-reversal input and also makes it so they cannot B-reverse before they hit in front of them. See normally with other characters you can input a B-reverse for an U-special on frames 2 to 4 and have it B-reverse on frame 4, but with these characters it's impossible to B-reverse any sooner than the frame following their first active hitbox (which for some happens to be frame 4 anyway). This is most easily notable with the likes of Luigi. (Incidentally, it seems the same was planned for Ryu, but at some point they must have made Shoryuken one frame slower, so while he has the same mechanics as the characters mentioned, he doesn't get this specific benefit.)
Note that with all B-reversals, you need to be holding the joystick in the opposite direction on the frame you are able to B-reverse. While this won't be notable with most characters (e.g. you'd have to hit backwards on frames 2-3 then return the joystick to neutral by frame 4 to have it screw up), this can be more relevant for the likes of Luigi or any of the training wheel characters if you actually hit the opponent and have to wait out the hitlag before you can B-reverse.

If you're using any character other than the ones with training wheels (unless there's some other character specific thing I'm unaware of), you can in fact turn around without needing to do a B-reversal, and you'd do this by simply holding the joystick up/diagonally-up and hitting special, and this will directly turn you around on the first frame that the Up-special was used (and you can then B-reverse out of that if you wanted, provided you're quick enough). If you try to do this with the training wheel characters, they will not turn around as they are unable to do this. If you continue to hold the joystick in the same direction, they will instead do a B-reversal as soon as they are able to.

I hope that answers your question.

 

[Vipermoon]

I guess Marth's Uspecial is like Ryu's. But it's always been frame 5 hitbox, it's just Melee could be turned around on frame 6 and Brawl and Smash 4 is frame 5. That function is really useful in Melee so too bad it's gone.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

In smash 4 at least, Marth is different to Ryu. Marth is like everyone else. He can do a turn-around U-special directly, making it so the first frame of the U-special is facing the other way, whereas Ryu cannot. Ryu is forced to B-reverse if he wants to U-special and face the other way. Marth is able to B-reverse his U-special on frame 4 while Ryu can only B-reverse on frame 6 (inputs can be made and held prior of course), which is good in one sense because it gives Ryu a larger window to get the B-reversal. Unfortunately(?) for Ryu, his hitbox starts on frame 6, and so it hits first behind him if you do a B-reversed Up-special, which was the point I was making about him being different.

 

[busken]

How frames of advantage does the defender have if they perfect shield ZSS's n-air and b-air?
Was wondering because I was watching Aba vs Nairo at nairo saga and aba punished it with a frame 6 move and prior knowledge didnt lead me to believe the window was this big.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

5 frames, but this is assuming that the ZSS used the Nair/Bair frame perfectly, the Nair/Bair was fresh, and the ZSS chose the correct counter option afterwards. Otherwise a 6 frame move will work just fine out of a powershield.

 

[BSP]

Does a buffered turnaround from shield drop cost you frames? If so, how many?

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

1 frame if you intend to do e.g. a Jab, otherwise you can just do e.g. an f-smash and lose no frames.

 

[Ulevo]

Do Megaman's pellets act as projectiles for block stun values or is it considered a regular hit box? What about Villager's dash attack and tree, growing and falling?

 

[Megamang]

In the My Smash Corner video featuring fatality ( https://youtu.be/fHUnGGpX8UY ) he mentions that he uses a left-trigger set to attack, to initiate what I have found referred to as 'ghetto bidou'. He says he can initiate it during aerials, and when asked why its useful he says that 'Perfect Pivot is the future for falcon'.

Ok, so with my shoulder set to attack (pro controller, if it matters) and the button held down after an attack, I can get the stick to make me turn. I presume, at this point, that it is doing a one frame directional input. But, I can't figure out how it can actually do a perfect pivot. I found some bidou tutorials, and tried to copy that. Nada. I get a turnaround, and if I keep holding the movement stick, I get a big dash thing... but NEVER have I gotten a PP. And I can PP pretty much 95% of the time manually, so I think my timing is good enough that I would be hitting at least a few PP with this new method.


Am I missing something? Did fatality miss something? I would think MSC and Fatality together would not put out a video with misinfo; not that anyone would do it on purpose but someone would notice in editing... yea.

Tldr: How can you do a perfect pivot with ghetto bidou? And, if anyone has the time, what else can that stick do?

I've been using it to get a walking turnaround -> Shield -> OoS bair, which is pretty awesome with megaman and decent with shiek against the tall guys... But since I can also utilize a special trigger with either, I will probably go back to that unless there is an easy PP I am missing.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

The PP requires a fully extended joystick input backwards for one frame, not a tilted one, so no the A-stick doesn't work. Not sure what happened in the video, but these things happen sometimes. Just like MSC's previous video that had a Mac do a sweetspot U-smash compared to a sourspot one when intending to show the effect rage has.

 

[Vipermoon]

Just like MSC's previous video that had a Mac do a sweetspot U-smash compared to a sourspot one when intending to show the effect rage has.

Lol! I noticed that and it annoyed me.

 

[Kaze Arashi]

Why is it so hard to b reverse certain side b's?