Q&A Mechanics & Techniques Discussion

[I speak Spanish too]

Yes, according to this reliable frame data sheet. Between jabs are 12 frames (f2-11 of jab1 and f1 of jab2) and there are 2 blockstun frames from jab1 (might be reduced to 1 due to powershield).

Great! How about other fast jabs like fox, sheik, little mac, mario

 

[Locke 06]

Great! How about other fast jabs like fox, sheik, little mac, mario

It's in the spreadsheet, but here's the ones you asked:
Fox has has 4 frames in between hits (3f blockstun)
Sheik has 5 frames in between hits (3f blockstun)
Little Mac has 5 frames in between hits (3f blockstun)
Mario has 6 frames in between hits (3f blockstun)

I'm taking the startup of jab1, counting the frames before the iasa, overlapping the iasa frame with f1 of the startup of jab2 and counting the frames before the startup. You can do this for any jab or move like dancing blade, cross slash, or Bayo FAir that requires continuation inputs.

 

[I speak Spanish too]

What happens if two characters try to grab each other on the same frame?

 

[Vipermoon]

What happens if two characters try to grab each other on the same frame?

I believe this is where player 1 benefits but I'll let someone confirm.

 

[Locke 06]

Grabs seem completely random.

 

[Vipermoon]

View attachment 121224

Ah that's what it was, thanks. It was other same-frame stuff that had some kind of priority.

 

[I speak Spanish too]

I may be asking this in the wrong place but is their a list of images of all characters get-up animations such as this http://prnt.sc/danhi3
i dont remember there ever being one, and there probably isnt one

 

[busken]

Does input buffering work the same way if you hit a body, shield, or nothing?
I was wondering because it would seem to me that hitlag and shieldstun would affect buffering.

 

[Jams.]

I may be asking this in the wrong place but is their a list of images of all characters get-up animations such as this http://prnt.sc/danhi3
i dont remember there ever being one, and there probably isnt one

This playlist seems close to what you're looking for. There's also this video, but it doesn't have Bayonetta or Corrin and only shows ledge jump.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Does input buffering work the same way if you hit a body, shield, or nothing?
I was wondering because it would seem to me that hitlag and shieldstun would affect buffering.

Short answer: Yes.

The game seems to buffer over real frames, not just character actions, that's why you can Option Select.
THOUGH we have things like buffering attacks out of Yoshi's Egg...

 

[busken]

Short answer: Yes.

The game seems to buffer over real frames, not just character actions, that's why you can Option Select.
THOUGH we have things like buffering attacks out of Yoshi's Egg...

So just to clarify, practicing buffering while hitting nobody is virtually the same as hitting a body?

 

[ぱみゅ]

It is not, when you buffer you need to take in account the hitlag.

 

[I speak Spanish too]

Is their a way to find out a character's max length foxtrot? What I've been doing is just hit the right stick for as long as I can until they are about to skid. Does anybody know of any other reliable method? Better yet, is their spreadsheet or doc for it, I doubt it but there seems to be data for everything.

 

[Masonomace]

Is their a way to find out a character's max length foxtrot? What I've been doing is just hit the right stick for as long as I can until they are about to skid. Does anybody know of any other reliable method? Better yet, is their spreadsheet or doc for it, I doubt it but there seems to be data for everything.

So you mean the very span of a single Foxtrot & holding shield to see when they act in that briefly-tapped foxtrot?

EDIT: Oh my bad didn't read the keywords in there. Yeah I see what you mean now. I'm not sure about that being somewhere in a spreadsheet, but I can lab that stuff later I suppose.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

It took some time, but I think I've finally narrowed down the rules that determine how long the ledge will be unavailable if you get hit. It's not as simple as you'd think.

Rule 1. You will be allowed to grab the ledge on the 54th frame following hitlag (unless Rule 2 applies and Rule 3 or 4 does not apply).
Rule 2. If you are hit hard enough that you will be forced to enter the tumble state, you cannot grab the ledge until the frame that you would enter the tumble state (unless Rule 3 or 4 applies).
Rule 3. If while falling your character model is pushed/shifted slightly out off-stage by the edge of the stage itself, Rule 2 will not apply and you will be allowed to grab the ledge as soon as you are within range so long as Rule 1 allows it.
Rule 4. If you avoid the tumble state entirely by e.g. using a move that can grab the ledge (Cloud Up-B, airdodge then tether, etc), you can circumvent Rule 2 and grab the ledge so long as Rule 1 allows it.

That's a bit convoluted, but it's really quite simple, so I'll give some examples.

Let's say you're hit with an attack that has 10 frames of hitlag. Well Rule 1 says that you'll be able to grab the ledge on frame 64 at the earliest counting from the moment you were hit (because it's 10 + 54).
But let's say that your percent was high enough for the same move to give you enough knockback to induce a tumble state, and the tumble state would have only started on frame 72 at the earliest. Rule 2 then says that you'd be allowed to grab the ledge on frame 72 at the earliest instead.
Ok, but when you were hit with this same move at the same percent that would have made it so you'd enter the tumble state on frame 72, let's say that you were smart so you DI'd/drifted to position yourself such that as you were falling you were nudged/moved by the edge of the stage out off-stage, or you used a move such as Cloud's Up-B or a tether before the tumble state had kicked in. In that case, Rule 3 and 4 say that you'd be allowed to grab the ledge on frame 64 at the earliest again.

Edited to include Rule 4.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Just a follow-up to the above. Only Rule 1 applies to tethers. And even then, there is actually a buffer window for the tether, allowing you to input the tether 3 frames earlier, having it come out as a Zair initially, then change its animation into a tether on the 54th frame following hitlag.

So with tethers you can essentially consider it to be:

Rule 1. You will be allowed to input Tether to grab the ledge on the 51st frame following hitlag. No exceptions.

 

[Jams.]

Does anyone know the chances of dropping a held item after getting hit?

 

[busken]

Does anyone have a playlist or audio or a visual image of every characters tech in place animation?

 

[ぱみゅ]

I'm pretty sure your question was specifically to get this answer, but anyway, here it is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hR3R_Flju5w

 

[Masonomace]

So just asking, because I haven't tested it myself with what little time I have. How exactly can you execute a "Item Drop (Ground)" action?

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

So just asking, because I haven't tested it myself with what little time I have. How exactly can you execute a "Item Drop (Ground)" action?

This refers to hitting the grab button with the joystick in neutral while standing and holding a specific item e.g. a beam sword.

 

[Masonomace]

This refers to hitting the grab button with the joystick in neutral while standing and holding a specific item e.g. a beam sword.

Interesting. . .I took the time to figure this out fully & it works with the following items:

ITEM-Items (The ones banned in competitive-play)

• Beam Sword
• Lip's Stick
• Star Rod
• Fire Bar
• Ore Club
• Home-Run Bat
• Super Scope
• Ray Gun
• Fire Flower
• Drill with or without both components
• Gust Bellows
• Steel Driver
• Special Flag

Character-Items summoned from their move-set (Vegetable, Wario Bike, Banana, etc..)

• None. . .

In short, the Item-drop grounded only works with the Battering items, & the Shooting items. Well, sweet. Thanks again Detective!

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Interesting. . .I took the time to figure this out fully & it works with the following items:

ITEM-Items (The ones banned in competitive-play)

• Beam Sword
• Lip's Stick
• Star Rod
• Fire Bar
• Ore Club
• Home-Run Bat
• Super Scope
• Ray Gun
• Fire Flower
• Drill with or without both components
• Gust Bellows
• Steel Driver
• Special Flag

Character-Items summoned from their move-set (Vegetable, Wario Bike, Banana, etc..)

• None. . .

In short, the Item-drop grounded only works with the Battering items, & the Shooting items. Well, sweet. Thanks again Detective!

Just a random bit of trivia you might be interested in, but it's actually possible to access the animation of the grounded item drop (or as I've always called it, the 'item-discard') using character-summoned items. You need to use a character who can do fake-out variations of the DITCIT, then it's just a matter of making the second throw's input a diagonal A-stick input; once you cancel the dash item toss animation with an upwards input, it will be replaced with this item-discard animation, but being a fake-out variation of the DITCIT the item itself will be thrown using the dash throw animation. Example https://youtu.be/DhzbRqRL3Qw?t=184

 

[BSP]

Is there something that explains how ledge invincibility works with damage and air time somewhere? Or does someone know how it works? I need to get better at predicting when it will end.

Also is there a resource that tells you the SDI multiplier on moves?

 

[Jams.]

Is there something that explains how ledge invincibility works with damage and air time somewhere? Or does someone know how it works? I need to get better at predicting when it will end.

Also is there a resource that tells you the SDI multiplier on moves?

Search for "Ledge Intangibility Formula" on this page. IIRC getting hit resets airborne frames to zero.

I've always used this resource to figure out SDI multipliers, but it's very old and I'd appreciate a more up to date resource as well.

 

[Daymaster]

Not sure if this is already known or not, but it's possible to do forward-facing tilts out of a foxtrot by dashdancing once in place and then perfect pivoting.

Also:

Is their a way to find out a character's max length foxtrot? What I've been doing is just hit the right stick for as long as I can until they are about to skid. Does anybody know of any other reliable method? Better yet, is their spreadsheet or doc for it, I doubt it but there seems to be data for everything.

Yeah, in the attached spreadsheet it's under Common Action, Dash Transition. Rename the file extension to XLSX; I had to rename it to TXT because otherwise Smashboards wouldn't let be upload it.

 

[Dagon97]

If I did Diddy's fsmash or Bayonetta's ftilt, would all hits get the stale move negation affect or just the hits that connected?
Additionally, if I had not used Bayonetta's ftilt before, would all hits get a freshness bonus or just a certain one?
Does Luma get affected by Stale Move Negation?
Does this also happen to Olimar's individual Pikmin or the same move for all the pikmin?

 

[busken]

So nobody has the sound of all character tech in place sound?

 

[I speak Spanish too]

Not sure if this is already known or not, but it's possible to do forward-facing tilts out of a foxtrot by dashdancing once in place and then perfect pivoting.

Also:
Yeah, in the attached spreadsheet it's under Common Action, Dash Transition. Rename the file extension to XLSX; I had to rename it to TXT because otherwise Smashboards wouldn't let be upload it.

Never knew this thanks!

 

[DanGR]

Nvm. Figured it out.

 

[busken]

Maybe Im asking in the wrong place, but is their a list of every character's short hop rising aerials that autocancel?

Also: those the rumble mechanic make a sound if the opponent fails to tech?

 

[I speak Spanish too]

Do I save any frames by doing dash jump canceled Up B, instead of normally doing dash up B?

 

[Masonomace]

Do I save any frames by doing dash jump canceled Up B, instead of normally doing dash up B?

Lots. For the majority of characters, you can't act with doing an Up-B until at least the 11th or 12th frame. If you do a frame-perfect godlike jump-canceled Up-B, you can suffer just 1 frame of jumpsquat & then Up-B the next frame.

 

[knepsis]

hey I've been looking for evidence that you can avoid the 2 frame window if you perfectly sweet spot the ledge, i remember a video on twitter showing rosa where the 2 frame animation was lengthened a significant amount to show this, however i have been unable to track this down, does anyone have access to this or something similar?

 

[I speak Spanish too]

hey I've been looking for evidence that you can avoid the 2 frame window if you perfectly sweet spot the ledge, i remember a video on twitter showing rosa where the 2 frame animation was lengthened a significant amount to show this, however i have been unable to track this down, does anyone have access to this or something similar?

There is no way to avoid the 2 frame window. Whenever any character grabs on to the ledge, they are vulnerable for the first 2 frames of their animation. It is possible to displace your character by manipulating the trajectory of their recovery so that their hurtbox when they grab the ledge is harder to get to/hit. An example of this would be Fox riding the slant on FD.

It's important to note that when recovering via tether there is no 2 frame vulnerability window as you are vulnerable for the whole duration of it. Also, the 2 frame vulnerability window is non-existent if you recover from above the ledge.

All Sweet spotting means is recovering in a way that your character doesn't pass the ledge in order to grab it. So their is no way to "perfectly sweet spot"

For more information on ledge vulnerability check out the youtube channels Trifroze and Beefy Smash Doods

 

[busken]

I have a quick question on standing pivot grabs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izyyGfKNsLk
On the video above the pivot grab inputs are →←／↓＼→ + Z
But I dont understand the point of the down input

Also can you extend the range of a pivot grab by doing a boost pivot grab? Which is a dash attacked cancel pivot grab?
If so, would you just add A to the inputs listed above?

 

[HOO HAH]

If I powershield Mario's jab 1 how many frames of advantage do I have?
I used this calculator http://rubendal.github.io/Sm4sh-Calculator/
and from what I can see Mario's hit advantage is -7 frames so would that mean I have a +7 frames of advantage? So I could retaliate with d-tilt( frame 3) or grab(frame 6) before his jab 2 comes out?

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

I have a quick question on standing pivot grabs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izyyGfKNsLk
On the video above the pivot grab inputs are →←／↓＼→ + Z
But I dont understand the point of the down input

There is no point.

Also can you extend the range of a pivot grab by doing a boost pivot grab? Which is a dash attacked cancel pivot grab?
If so, would you just add A to the inputs listed above?

It would need to be a C-stick down input, i.e. an instant dash attack because you are wanting to dash attack immediately out of the initial dash. And in this case you'd just be dash attacking away from the opponent necessarily if you intend to do a pivot grab in their direction, so it's not going to 'extend' it.

If I powershield Mario's jab 1 how many frames of advantage do I have?
I used this calculator http://rubendal.github.io/Sm4sh-Calculator/
and from what I can see Mario's hit advantage is -7 frames so would that mean I have a +7 frames of advantage? So I could retaliate with d-tilt( frame 3) or grab(frame 6) before his jab 2 comes out?

Nope. There's a lot you're not understanding so I don't know where to start. Instead of using a calculator though, you could always just lab it https://smashboards.com/threads/foxys-guide-to-testing-and-labbing.417822/

 

[busken]

There probably isn't, but is there a resource to see every characters max walking speed distance in an amount of frames? I've been using Foxy's method of testing but it's become rather tedious and have been wondering if anybody else has already complied this information.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

There probably isn't, but is there a resource to see every characters max walking speed distance in an amount of frames? I've been using Foxy's method of testing but it's become rather tedious and have been wondering if anybody else has already complied this information.

Not that I'm aware of? There's this of course http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/WalkSpeed, but if you were wanting to take into account acceleration too then I don't think there is anything.

If you're going to use frame skips I'd advise you to use fully extended joystick inputs for the sake of consistency, just because if you e.g. tilt the joystick slightly you'll get variations in how far/fast you walk in those couple of frames depending on precisely how far you titled the joystick. But you obviously can't just start from neutral and then frame skip with a fully extended joystick input to the side, otherwise you get a dash, so what you do instead is you input a fully extended joystick input diagonally up into the indent and frame skip by two frames, then move the joystick down so it's fully extended to the side/forwards and frame skip from there as usual. If you're having to get through a lot of frames, you should be using the 3 frames skip too of course. Then as an end-point, you'd want to maybe return the joystick to neutral and shield then skip two frames and use the centre of the shield (in line with a particular part on the ground) as an indication of how far you moved rather than the feet positions which will vary between characters and moments in the walk cycle and will also discount the effect of traction for the most part etc.