Q&A Mechanics & Techniques Discussion

[Yikarur]

The trick of it isn't in how long the ledge jump animation is, but the timing of WHEN you can actually input an attack. Normally when getting up from the ledge using jump, you can't attack at any time until the height of your jump arc back over the stage, the game doesn't register any input in between

This ain't Melee.
You can act immediately on the first airborne frame with any more.

 

[Lavani]

That's the same point during the jump you can always attack, he's just using a move that kills your momentum to stay near ground height. Vipermoon is correct.

 

[Lomogoto]

So i know biduo is all the rage right now but i wanted to bring to light that some of the tricks do not need B sticking. If you hold A and press the c-stick you can also get a single frame of movement (if it is set to attack instead of smash the direction with be a light input which has less utility but is also useful). Alternatively if you are in an animation already you do not need to hold A, i have been using this to consistantly and easily wave bouce for a while.

 

[Fledge]

This ain't Melee.
You can act immediately on the first airborne frame with any more.

Whaaaattttttttt no way, how long have I missed this?? How embarrassing, I've even got over 5000 online battles and I didn't notice at all, argh. I didn't realize this had changed even in Brawl, so I guess when I saw this tech I tried it without even realizing. The big whitish dust cloud jump animation wasn't coming out when I was doing this so it seemed even more like the jump was being interrupted.

I was even troubling myself to make a video to demonstrate it with Roy, you can see how the big whitish dust cloud jump animation comes out of normal jump getup, but if timed just right it doesn't even come out on the special. Disappointing to learn, but well, thanks for the learning experience!

 

[samosa]

Does anyone know how long it takes before you can act after getting footstooled in the air? Or is it character dependent?

 

[teluoborg]

It is the same duration for all characters but the distance they fall is dependant on their falling speed. So when footstooled at the same height Jiggs will get out of stun at a higher position than Fox.

So i know biduo is all the rage right now but i wanted to bring to light that some of the tricks do not need B sticking. If you hold A and press the c-stick you can also get a single frame of movement (if it is set to attack instead of smash the direction with be a light input which has less utility but is also useful). Alternatively if you are in an animation already you do not need to hold A, i have been using this to consistantly and easily wave bouce for a while.

Yes but then you miss all the tilts and jabs out of pivot, and the aerials out of platform drop which kinda is the main interest of Bidou (beside looking flashy). But yes if you are only using Bidou for specials then you are right.

You have to wait for frame 2. Inputting both on the same frame would give you either a smash attack or a standing grab.

Hum then what about + ? Can you start the dash attack on frame 1 or will that make you Dsmash/Dtilt ?

 

[Lavani]

Hum then what about + ? Can you start the dash attack on frame 1 or will that make you Dsmash/Dtilt ?

It would dsmash/dtilt, yes.

Though just to be sure we're on the same page, by "frame 2" I mean the action starting on frame 2.

ex.
0f: Standing; is input
1f: Dashing; is input
2f: Dash attack

vs

0f: Standing; + is input
1f: Dsmash

 

[Meistermayo]

Quick question about Megaman: when he is facing right, his slash claw (bair) graphics come out in the order: Yellow (Mid), pink (high), blue (low). But when he is facing left, the order goes Yellow, Pink (LOW), blue (HIGH).

The blue graphic represents the final hit of bair, giving it its knockback and most damage.
Is this just a graphical quirk or does this actually affect hitboxes??

 

[Vipermoon]

Quick question about Megaman: when he is facing right, his slash claw (bair) graphics come out in the order: Yellow (Mid), pink (high), blue (low). But when he is facing left, the order goes Yellow, Pink (LOW), blue (HIGH).

The blue graphic represents the final hit of bair, giving it its knockback and most damage.
Is this just a graphical quirk or does this actually affect hitboxes??

I just want to say that this is probably because of MM slashing diagonally down to up or up to down while he's slashing fron left to right. Whether or not this affects hitboxes depends on A LOT of things. For example, while each hitbox lasts for a frame, it's possible that they are moving from point A to B within that frame like a lot of moves in Smash 4 do (like MK's stuff). It's also depends on what the hitboxes are or aren't attached to. Hopefully someone else can help because right now I don't have the time to check hitbox data (nor am I confident that I'll read it right if it happens to be a weird situation).

 

[Lavani]

Bair's hitboxes aren't tied to the graphic at all.

That's amusing about the animation being different with facing though, I've never noticed that.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

It would dsmash/dtilt, yes.

Though just to be sure we're on the same page, by "frame 2" I mean the action starting on frame 2.

ex.
0f: Standing; is input
1f: Dashing; is input
2f: Dash attack

vs

0f: Standing; + is input
1f: Dsmash

You're correct to say that dash attack can come out on frame 2 at the earliest, but I just wanted to clarify something.
In my experience, using training mode at least, the game seems to register the input for an action and display the first frame of that action on the same frame. So for example, using 1/4 hold in training mode, when L is released and the game is paused, you can input any number of actions, but if you're not holding the input for an action when you skip forwards by two frames, nothing will happen because the game never actually received any inputs. Therefore the first frame of the two frame skip must be when the game takes the input, and then on the same frame it displays the first frame of the action, and then of course it ends by displaying the second frame of the action. For this reason, when I say 'input the action on frame X' I mean, get the game paused on the frame before, then hold the input for the action, then skip forwards in order for the game to register the input on frame X. If however it works the way you're saying, in order to be consistent with what actually happens, then there must be some kind of quirk about training mode 1/4 hold (and 1/2 hold) where there is a dead frame in which nothing happens except that the game receives inputs every time L is pressed, at which point it then displays the first and second frame (and third frame for 1/2 hold) of the action you inputted if you immediately release L, which would be really weird.

 

[Lavani]

I don't see what would be weird about it. Pause buffering's a thing in many games, there's no reason for Sm4sh to be an exception.

Think of it this way: the "paused" state when not holding L is one really long frame. Since it's just one frame, you can't press buttons and have them enter the 10 frame buffer. If you hold buttons down, you're sending an input to that frame, which will go through to the game when it's allowed to advance to the next frame. Quite literally, the game has you paused on frame 0.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

I don't see what would be weird about it. Pause buffering's a thing in many games, there's no reason for Sm4sh to be an exception.

Think of it this way: the "paused" state when not holding L is one really long frame. Since it's just one frame, you can't press buttons and have them enter the 10 frame buffer. If you hold buttons down, you're sending an input to that frame, which will go through to the game when it's allowed to advance to the next frame. Quite literally, the game has you paused on frame 0.

I don't know about that. You'd expect then to be able to input something, let go of the input immediately then within 10 frames hit L and still have the action for that input come out, but this is not the case.

 

[Lavani]

Maybe I didn't explain that clearly.

The 10 frame buffer doesn't apply because the game isn't actually advancing frames. The game isn't reading inputs for the frame you're frozen on until it sees you advance to the next frame.

If what you're implying were true, it wouldn't be possible to do things like perfect shield an attack 1 frame before it hits with Hold L.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

If what you're implying were true, it wouldn't be possible to do things like perfect shield an attack 1 frame before it hits with Hold L.

What I meant by a potential 'dead frame' was that absolutely nothing would happen, including the transition from the frame in which the attack about to hit had no hitbox to the frame in which it did have a hitbox.
Otherwise, if you don't think there's a dead frame then it goes back to my original assumption which is that the game registers inputs and displays the first frame of them on the same frame.
Unless of course I'm still misunderstanding what you're trying to say.

 

[Lavani]

Whipped up a quick image for reference. Each box represents a frame, the lines following the letters above indicate button presses.

Since the game's paused, time isn't advancing. If no buttons are being held when time resumes, it's effectively like nothing was pressed at all. If there is a button being held, then that's the input given for the frame.

For the 3DS version, you can pause buffer using the home button the exact same way. Tapping buttons while loading back into the game from the home menu won't send anything since the game's paused, holding a button will send the input immediately the next frame, since that's the input you send when the paused frame ends.

I guess if it's easier for you to think of it as a dead frame, it's functionally similar.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Whipped up a quick image for reference. Each box represents a frame, the lines following the letters above indicate button presses.

Since the game's paused, time isn't advancing. If no buttons are being held when time resumes, it's effectively like nothing was pressed at all. If there is a button being held, then that's the input given for the frame.

For the 3DS version, you can pause buffer using the home button the exact same way. Tapping buttons while loading back into the game from the home menu won't send anything since the game's paused, holding a button will send the input immediately the next frame, since that's the input you send when the paused frame ends.

I guess if it's easier for you to think of it as a dead frame, it's functionally similar.

I see. So it's kind of like, inputs are inputted on frames but they are registered/processed between frames, and what is required in order to get the action is both the input and the registration of that input, yeah?

 

[Lavani]

I see. So it's kind of like, inputs are inputted on frames but they are registered/processed between frames, and what is required in order to get the action is both the input and the registration of that input, yeah?

Maybe. I can't be 100% sure that it's strictly registered between frames (there's no way to prove an input went through but was registered for less than 1/60 of a second, and the game may take subframes for inputs).

Mainly I just wanted to get across that if the game is paused (t=0), anything that isn't being held when unpaused was input for exactly 0 seconds from the game's POV (i.e. not at all).

 

[Jams.]

Hitstun (hitlag counts as 1) = Knockback * 0.4
Velocity = Knockback * 0.03

Could someone please confirm if these formulas from Melee are the same in Smash 4? Also, how do gravity and fall speed factor into vertical launch distance?

 

[Dr. Tuen]

Maybe. I can't be 100% sure that it's strictly registered between frames (there's no way to prove an input went through but was registered for less than 1/60 of a second, and the game may take subframes for inputs).

Mainly I just wanted to get across that if the game is paused (t=0), anything that isn't being held when unpaused was input for exactly 0 seconds from the game's POV (i.e. not at all).

This is fascinating. It would be really cool to try and test inputs that last for less than frame and see what the result is. It's almost certain that humans can't do this, but it'd be cool nonetheless.

But if the frame transition hypothesis is the closest explanation we have, then the fastest player action is two frames long, since one is spent delivering the input.

 

[AxelVDP]

is there a list of interactable hurtboxes that don't put moves in the stale queue when hit?
if I am not mistaken villager's tree is one of those, but I am unsure of things like the ducks in duck hunt, the balloons in sv/t&c etc

(it would be really nice if there were a place where this kind of information could be easily accessed...)

 

[teluoborg]

The tree has a hurtbox ? I don't think so. If anything it's something like Zelda's ghost or Pit's down B : some kind of janky wall that just pushes you away from a certain place.

As for the balloons and the ducks they are indeed hurtboxes and hitting them will count in the stale move list.

 

[Ninety]

Couple questions I haven't been able to find the answers to. One, which specials in 4 have autocancel windows? I know Melee and Brawl had autocancel lasers, but I son't know for sure whether any special moves in 4 do. Two, have any patches modified any move's autocancels?

 

[AxelVDP]

The tree has a hurtbox ? I don't think so. If anything it's something like Zelda's ghost or Pit's down B : some kind of janky wall that just pushes you away from a certain place.

As for the balloons and the ducks they are indeed hurtboxes and hitting them will count in the stale move list.

I count as hurtbox anything that a hitbox can interact with, you CAN hit the tree when it's planted, it even shields you against projectiles if you stand behind it, so I consider it a hurtbox

 

[Vipermoon]

Couple questions I haven't been able to find the answers to. One, which specials in 4 have autocancel windows? I know Melee and Brawl had autocancel lasers, but I son't know for sure whether any special moves in 4 do. Two, have any patches modified any move's autocancels?

Off the top of my head, Sheik's vanish, Bowser's command grab, and DK's wind kong custom have AC windows. I bet there are more but they are rare in Smash 4.

 

[Lomogoto]

This is fascinating. It would be really cool to try and test inputs that last for less than frame and see what the result is. It's almost certain that humans can't do this, but it'd be cool nonetheless.

But if the frame transition hypothesis is the closest explanation we have, then the fastest player action is two frames long, since one is spent delivering the input.

Many games, and i believe smash falls under this catigory, poll for inputs constantly and add them to a list. This is normally done outside of the main loop that runs the game. Then each frame, the game will look at the inputs in that list and process them accordingly. When the game is pause it is processing inputs differently and clearing them so it does not affect gameplay. In short an input does not need to last a whole frame. These can also be combine with finding the states of buttons, which is different. Sheilding opperates more like this, where whenever the button is down, you are sheilding. But an attack does not repeat/continue if you hold the button (in most cases).

 

[LancerStaff]

The Pits' and Toon Link's arrows autocancel too.

You could say that the autocancel on the Pits' arrows was buffed in a patch, though the mechanics behind it aren't the same like if you used an aerial. If you hit the AC window with an aerial or TL's arrows then when you land you'll be hit with hard landing lag, usually five frames. With the Pits' arrows you simply hit the FAF in the air (faster then if you used them on the ground) and can act out of the move, and if you land without interrupting it you can act on frame one on landing since it and most specials don't have an air > ground transition animation.

 

[Vipermoon]

The Pits' and Toon Link's arrows autocancel too.

You could say that the autocancel on the Pits' arrows was buffed in a patch, though the mechanics behind it aren't the same like if you used an aerial. If you hit the AC window with an aerial or TL's arrows then when you land you'll be hit with hard landing lag, usually five frames. With the Pits' arrows you simply hit the FAF in the air (faster then if you used them on the ground) and can act out of the move, and if you land without interrupting it you can act on frame one on landing since it and most specials don't have an air > ground transition animation.

I had no idea about TL. Link's doesn't?

Pit's doesn't count as autocancel. You are ending the faster aerial animation either before you land (to take normal landing lag) or as you land (to take less than normal LL) as you said. Marth can do this with his much-faster-than-grounded DB1 aerial animation and I'm sure there are many other situations like this.

 

[LancerStaff]

I had no idea about TL. Link's doesn't?

Pit's doesn't count as autocancel. You are ending the faster aerial animation either before you land (to take normal landing lag) or as you land (to take less than normal LL) as you said. Marth can do this with his much-faster-than-grounded DB1 aerial animation and I'm sure there are many other situations like this.

Lol, it has since Brawl and it's an in-game tip now. Assuming it doesn't with Link's.

Not a proper autocancel I suppose but it's better then describing the mechanics behind it exactly whenever it comes up or calling it some kooky name that nobody gets. (Though I've been calling it a silent landing to myself, heh. Makes sense since there's no effect whatsoever. At least on Pit's arrows.)

The only other special with a FAF that ends before the animation is over I can think of is... The Warlock Punch. Another tip says you can jump the max height with a Bunny Hood and use the move and you'll throw the punch right before you land laglessly.

 

[Kofu]

Couple questions I haven't been able to find the answers to. One, which specials in 4 have autocancel windows? I know Melee and Brawl had autocancel lasers, but I son't know for sure whether any special moves in 4 do. Two, have any patches modified any move's autocancels?

It's not a special but Ike's FAir gained an autocancel in the first patch.

 

[Lavani]

Couple questions I haven't been able to find the answers to. One, which specials in 4 have autocancel windows? I know Melee and Brawl had autocancel lasers, but I son't know for sure whether any special moves in 4 do. Two, have any patches modified any move's autocancels?

You don't really get the same kind of behavior with special moves as with normal aerials. I think the closest example would be autocanceling a special move with an aerial's early AC window (e.g. full jump Ness/Corrin sideB > aerial).

For the most part specials either give you set landing lag for landing during them, or continue animating on the ground.

On the more technical side of things, specials don't have landing lag set in the same fashion as aerials, and the game handles it differently as a result. You can't autocancel Diddy's nair with dair, but you can nair>popgun>shield, for example.

Off the top of my head, Sheik's vanish, Bowser's command grab, and DK's wind kong custom have AC windows. I bet there are more but they are rare in Smash 4.

Sheik/DK don't actually autocancel, they just continue their animations on the ground if you land before landing lag would happen (entering helpless). Which can potentially be better than an autocancel, as you can land with less landing lag than a hard landing with proper positioning. You can also do this with some other characters' specials like Meta Knight's neutralB and downB.

I guess you could call Bowser sideB a move that autocancels for its full animation lol

The tree has a hurtbox ? I don't think so. If anything it's something like Zelda's ghost or Pit's down B : some kind of janky wall that just pushes you away from a certain place.

All three of those things can be damaged by attacks and will break after a given % threshold, though.

 

[Vipermoon]

Two, have any patches modified any move's autocancels?

For aerial ACs that were touched, other than Ike's Fair, there was Diddy's Uair that got nerfed from a F15 autocancel to F26. I can't think of any more right now.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

The only special move in the game that autocancels on landing every frame similar to Falco lasers in Melee/Brawl is Bowser's Side B and custom variants. The animation is cut off as he enters Hard Landing lag like any autocanceled aerial. He just doesn't need to land after or before any specific point.

Up Bs that "autocancel" are simply finishing their animation before entering freefall. Test DK's normal Up B and you will find his "autocancel" height just as easily as the one for his custom move. But only some attacks have this possibility, not all. Ness and Lucas are capable of this as well, just try to land a frame before entering freefall, and you will have as low as 1 "landing lag" before you can act.

Lucario can recover directly into the ground for a bounce landing that takes less time to finish then his normal landing animation. And some moves that don't put you in freefall but still have landing lag can also have this capability if you land after a certain point of the animation, like Peach's Side Bs. I believe all you need to do with her is land on any frame where the hitbox is no longer active. Because of this, her flying peach bomber custom is seemingly incapable of entering a landing state. Because she can only land after the hitbox has ended. Try it on Battlefield platforms. When landing in a freefall, that move will have a specific amount of landing lag. Typically between 20 or 30.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Oops, hit Quote instead of Edit.

 

[Vipermoon]

Found one. Ike's Quickdraw before it enters freefall.

 

[Lavani]

Found one. Ike's Quickdraw before it enters freefall.

Nope, same deal as Sheik/DK there. Varies like 1~21f depending on your height (barely off the ground~around full jump apex height)

 

[Vipermoon]

Nope, same deal as Sheik/DK there. Varies like 1~21f depending on your height (barely off the ground~around full jump apex height)

I was going off memory knowing that I'd be corrected if I was wrong. Thanks for the correction.

 

[ArikadoSD]

So why is it that jump cancelled throws are called glide toss ? that literally serves no purpose besides confusing. jump cancel item throw describes exactly what it is and can be understood by so many more players

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

So why is it that jump cancelled throws are called glide toss ? that literally serves no purpose besides confusing. jump cancel item throw describes exactly what it is and can be understood by so many more players

JC-throws aren't called glide toss. Some people are just stupid and call every item-throwing/sliding AT a 'glide toss' because they don't know any better.

 

[ArikadoSD]

JC-throws aren't called glide toss. Some people are just stupid and call every item-throwing/sliding AT a 'glide toss' because they don't know any better.

That explains it. what's a glide toss then?

and a super glide toss is where it's a grab-cancelled with usmash inputted in between? makes mega man/link slide pretty far?