Q&A Mechanics & Techniques Discussion

[KuroganeHammer]

I listed these multipliers in this spread sheet.
Monados multipliers are probably accurate but some attributes like air speed, run speed are possibly wrong cause these are written in different way.

I know Toomai had mentioned Dr. Mario has multipliers with Damage Dealt(x1.12) and some attributes(x0.82) and also found these values in different param file, fighter_param_etc.
Judging from this file, he seems to have various type of multipliers like x0.98, x1.04, x1.06 and x1.14 but I have no idea what these means.

Regarding this spreadsheet:

1 = Monado Art Duration (seconds)
2 = Monado Art Cooldown (frames)
7 = Fall Speed
8 = Damage Taken Multiplier
24 = Shield Health Multiplier

The others seem right, just confirming a couple of things for you~

 

[Masonomace]

M Meshima KuroganeHammer
In response to the spreadsheet, I don't think 7 = fall speed. If that were true, Jump Shulk's fall speed would rival Dedede which is definitely not the case. I believe one of the 1.22's is the fall speed multiplier, since 1.5 x 1.22 = 1.83. Jump Shulk does happen to rival Roy Mega Man Little Mac & Falco, but he falls slightly faster than them so it makes sense this way. Their fall speed value is 1.8.

 

[Meshima]

Regarding this spreadsheet:

1 = Monado Art Duration (seconds)
2 = Monado Art Cooldown (frames)
7 = Fall Speed
8 = Damage Taken Multiplier
24 = Shield Health Multiplier

The others seem right, just confirming a couple of things for you~

Thank you for helping me!
But Jump Art Fall Speed Multiplier seems x1.22, almost the same as CF.


Regarding Shulk' Vision formula, @drafix570 took some research.

Spoiler: Vision Duration

X/Y-axis means Elapsed Frames from Previous Use and Active Frames(Duration).

edit:
Agree with Masonomace .

 

[KuroganeHammer]

sorry mb I didn't see the other 1.22x so I thought they were around the wrong way

 

[Masonomace]

KuroganeHammer All good.

M Meshima In regards more to the spreadsheet:

5 = frames to cycle past an art?

I'm wondering about the "2" found in row 5 for Monado arts. If I'm guessing correctly, "2" could mean the amount of frames it takes to cycle past an art. This is because frame skipping in training mode I'm able to perform the 1-frame skip method so that my monado art appears on frame 1, skip 2 frames by tapping L once during 1/4x (Hold L) speed, then tap the specials button again & viola the art cycles. I can be totally wrong 'cus I'm still guessing.

I have no idea what 3 or 4 could mean.

18 = friction?

I do friction comparisons with things like Bumper testing stuff & come to the guess that it could be friction. Shulk's friction value is 0.044, the same as Ike's. When they both get hit by the Bumper, they both slide the exact same distance despite that their different weight values or whatever might be a factor to Bumper. Anyway, 0.044 x 1.5 = 0.066, & Falco's friction value is 0.065. So by math, Speed Shulk's friction rivals Falco's but he has slightly more than Falco. Here's an image of what I was doing & what the result looks like:

Spoiler: image result from testing

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Good example of testing ^

Also is knockback received in Smash mode really only 7% extra? It seems so much more lol. Masonomace do you have any KO percents for Shulk off the top of FD in Smash mode compared to normal mode? Might be interesting to compare KB values.

 

[Masonomace]

Good example of testing ^

Also is knockback received in Smash mode really only 7% extra? It seems so much more lol. Masonomace do you have any KO percents for Shulk off the top of FD in Smash mode compared to normal mode? Might be interesting to compare KB values.

Not at the moment but I can go gather some. Example(s)?

EDIT: With or without factors like Rage & Staling?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

No rage, no staling, something like mewtwo uthrow in training mode

 

[Masonomace]

No rage, no staling, something like mewtwo uthrow in training mode

Mewtwo UThrow vs Vanilla Shulk & Smash Shulk on Omega Gaur Plains

Without DI
Vanilla Shulk starts dying at 138%
Smash Shulk starts dying at 119%

Holding DI left / right
Vanilla Shulk starts dying at 141%
Smash Shulk starts dying at 122%

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Huh, it does indeed seem to be a 7% increase. Fascinating.

 

[Masonomace]

M Meshima OOH. I just thought of what the "60" in row 3 could be.

When you deactivate an art manually while not moving, you hold down the specials button for one whole second (60 frames). I don't know how to word it exactly, but something like:

3 = Art's deactivation held down?

 

[Locke 06]

Just gonna say.

Shield lock is either an extremely interesting mechanic... or something that is extremely annoying. Seeing two sheiks trade ftilts on shield because of shield lock makes me laugh.

ftilt is -8 on shield drop, with a 5f startup. But because of shield lock, nope.

 

[Megamang]

Some questions. If it makes it more obvious what im going for, im trying to find some landing metal blade throw confirms.


Is there somewhere I can find item throw frame data? Does the total animation change based on landing? hard vs soft throw? And there isn't a soft/hard air throw right, just one for each direction...

Thanks in advance.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Some questions. If it makes it more obvious what im going for, im trying to find some landing metal blade throw confirms.


Is there somewhere I can find item throw frame data? Does the total animation change based on landing? hard vs soft throw? And there isn't a soft/hard air throw right, just one for each direction...

Thanks in advance.

http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Attributes

You can find all of then except down item toss here (It's also not updated for 1.1.5 but I doubt they changed any of it).

 

[Megamang]

Is Item toss forward is the same as neutral toss? And it says (ground) so I assume this is grounded, is there frame data out there for aerial tosses? Or are they just the same? Also, what about toss OOS? Thats probably the same as a directional toss...

Sorry, just trying to get some calculations going. Its already hard when you consider the projectile never hits f1...

 

[KuroganeHammer]

yeah neutral toss is the same as forward toss

toss oos is the same as directional toss yes.

 

[HimaBook]

And it says (ground) so I assume this is grounded, is there frame data out there for aerial tosses?

We can see aerial tosses data here, which is researched by sixriver and translated by Pikabunz. To know Corrin's & Bayo's data ,which isn't included in that,please refer original sixriver's spreadsheet(ver 1.1.4 now). Though it's written in Japanese,labels of characters & moves are same to translation.

Also, what about toss OOS? Thats probably the same as a directional toss...

OoS toss mechanism is "cancel shield by jump -> cancel the jumpsquat by directional toss". So it's same to directional toss as Kurogane Hammer said. But please note that at least 1F of jumpsquat is needed before starting toss for OoS toss.

EDIT:As @Fox Is Openly Deceptive said,jump doesn't needed.Sorry about that,and thank you for correction.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

OoS toss mechanism is "cancel shield by jump -> cancel the jumpsquat by directional toss". So it's same to directional toss as Kurogane Hammer said. But please note that at least 1F of jumpsquat is needed before starting toss for OoS toss.

All item throws can be done directly OoS. There's no need to input a jump first.

 

[Vipermoon]

All item throws can be done directly OoS. There's no need to input a jump first.

Wait really? I guess I wouldn't know considering I'm a Marth main. I lost a little bit of respect for Diddy players just now.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I think you can throw OoS because the game considers it a grab input... which also throws items.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

I think you can throw OoS because the game considers it a grab input... which also throws items.

Except that it doesn't matter whether you're holding shield or not on the frame you e.g. hit the c-stick upwards to throw the bomb upwards.

 

[Ninety]

Question. How does jump cancelling work?

 

[Lavani]

Question. How does jump cancelling work?

There's a 4~8 frame squatting animation before you jump, depending on the character. This animation can be interrupted with usmash, upB, or an item throw, thus canceling your jump.

Stuff this means:

• Usmash/UpB with tap jump on aren't frustratingly precise
• Since it's possible to jump out of shield, Usmash/UpB can be done directly out of shield
  • Characters who have a chargeable projectile, such as Lucario, can also do these actions directly out of their charge animation via shield+jump+attack
• Due to state transition shenanigans, running JC actions will slide further than normal

 

[Empyrean]

I dunno if this has been asked before but when exactly can you fastfall an aerial? Frame 1? Is it the same for all aerials?

 

[Masonomace]

I dunno if this has been asked before but when exactly can you fastfall an aerial? Frame 1? Is it the same for all aerials?

This to my knowledge depends more on air time than the aerial itself. If you input a short hop for example, executing an aerial immediately coming out of the jumpsquat won't be able to be fastfallen until later during the aerial. But if you're already in the air, then sure.

 

[Funen1]

I've been looking into how hitstun is calculated, and I have a question about something. Characters flinch when hit by attacks with low enough knockback (as opposed to being sent into a tumble with high enough knockback), but is the amount of hitstun frames they receive while flinching calculated any differently because it's a different state, or is it the same as what the standard knockback formula would suggest, with no distinction between the two states?

 

[Vipermoon]

I've been looking into how hitstun is calculated, and I have a question about something. Characters flinch when hit by attacks with low enough knockback (as opposed to being sent into a tumble with high enough knockback), but is the amount of hitstun frames they receive while flinching calculated any differently because it's a different state, or is it the same as what the standard knockback formula would suggest, with no distinction between the two states?

No distinction in hitstun between the states. By the way, 80 knockback is the threshold to get tumble.

 

[Xandercosm]

Here's something I've been wondering about lately: Does a character's airspeed effect the usefulness of horizontal DI and, therefore, survivability? Also, how does air acceleration play a role?

I was thinking about this because I know that fallspeed effects vertical survivability and I was wondering if airspeed works the same way.

 

[Lavani]

Here's something I've been wondering about lately: Does a character's airspeed effect the usefulness of horizontal DI and, therefore, survivability? Also, how does air acceleration play a role?

I was thinking about this because I know that fallspeed effects vertical survivability and I was wondering if airspeed works the same way.

No effects on the knockback itself. Fall speed helps survival against vertical knockback because it doesn't require input from the player in a situation where you can't input anything.

Air accel helps in some fringe cases where knockback sends you very close to the blastzone and you need to reverse momentum ASAP to survive; characters with poor air accel like Ryu will sometimes die from attacks without red lightning because of this, even without bad DI.

 

[Megamang]

Being knocked near the blastzone and needing to reverse momentum doesn't seem like a fringe case though. Does it only happen cross stage or something?

 

[Lavani]

Being knocked near the blastzone and needing to reverse momentum doesn't seem like a fringe case though. Does it only happen cross stage or something?

I mean it as in it's only going to matter in a 1% window for characters with really poor air accel.

 

[Planty]

If you go for a dash attack or a dash grab, can the startup of those commence on the first frame of a dash, or do you have to use it on the second frame (or possibly later)?

 

[Lavani]

If you go for a dash attack or a dash grab, can the startup of those commence on the first frame of a dash, or do you have to use it on the second frame (or possibly later)?

You have to wait for frame 2. Inputting both on the same frame would give you either a smash attack or a standing grab.

 

[Xandercosm]

No effects on the knockback itself. Fall speed helps survival against vertical knockback because it doesn't require input from the player in a situation where you can't input anything.

Air accel helps in some fringe cases where knockback sends you very close to the blastzone and you need to reverse momentum ASAP to survive; characters with poor air accel like Ryu will sometimes die from attacks without red lightning because of this, even without bad DI.

Well, thanks for the info. That's interesting to know. On a similar note, it's kind of funny how, despite Dedede being the 3rd heaviest character in the game, he has like 15% or more vertical survivability than even DK or Bowser just because he has the second fastest fall speed.

 

[Funen1]

No distinction in hitstun between the states. By the way, 80 knockback is the threshold to get tumble.

Thanks so much for the info, good stuff.

As a sort of followup to my last question, I've been looking through this thread for info on when you can do things like airdodge, jump, and attack after histun, and I'm wondering if that's been figured out in detail yet. I know Pikabunz had that one table with the percents you could do stuff after Pika's F-tilt, but beyond that I haven't really seen much at all (if I missed a super-comprehensive post or something, that's my bad). Are those kinds of number differences universal, or would they change from attack to attack? And would those differences be something we can measure through something else (like an equation), or would we have to do it all manually?

 

[Lavani]

Thanks so much for the info, good stuff.

As a sort of followup to my last question, I've been looking through this thread for info on when you can do things like airdodge, jump, and attack after histun, and I'm wondering if that's been figured out in detail yet. I know Pikabunz had that one table with the percents you could do stuff after Pika's F-tilt, but beyond that I haven't really seen much at all (if I missed a super-comprehensive post or something, that's my bad). Are those kinds of number differences universal, or would they change from attack to attack? And would those differences be something we can measure through something else (like an equation), or would we have to do it all manually?

When you can airdodge/attack out of hitstun isn't tied to knockback and is theorized to be velocity related, but I don't know hard numbers on that.

For Corrin fair vs Bayonetta, airdodge seems to hold at 40 frames for 100~145KB and attack holds at 45f for 115~135KB. According to this Falcon dair vs Mario has the 40/45f durations lasting until much higher knockback values, but there's a groundbounce involved that reduces velocity.

 

[Vipermoon]

Thanks so much for the info, good stuff.

As a sort of followup to my last question, I've been looking through this thread for info on when you can do things like airdodge, jump, and attack after histun, and I'm wondering if that's been figured out in detail yet. I know Pikabunz had that one table with the percents you could do stuff after Pika's F-tilt, but beyond that I haven't really seen much at all (if I missed a super-comprehensive post or something, that's my bad). Are those kinds of number differences universal, or would they change from attack to attack? And would those differences be something we can measure through something else (like an equation), or would we have to do it all manually?

There are actually were further testing you missed. The magic number is 41 frames of hitstun.

Don't pay attention to how these posts say the same thing. We were just making sure hitstun mechanics were the same between two patches.

Alright, I didn't make as many values as the Pikachu Ftilt test, because Marth's Dthrow has extremely low KBG (50) so I don't need to do the test every 10%, there would be so little variance. It also never fails to put the victim in tumble, so there's no enlightening point where we see the effects of hitstun cancelling as the opponent begins entering tumble. Here's the 1.13 Hitstun suffered when Marth Dthrows Sheik at 0/50/100% in training mode with no DI and is using the following options:

Double Jump (maximum hitstun): 43/48/53
Aerials: 43/46/47
Air Dodge (minimum hitstun): 41/41/41

Marth has 25 endlag after Dthrowing Sheik. This may have changed now that Sheik is a point lighter. The point where I start counting frames (for endlag and for hitstun) is the frame Sheik has sustained damage. Because this is a throw that only deals damage once on release, there's no hitlag frames you need to count around, but it's important I state where 1 is. And if nobody is around to do the 1.14 test, I'll do it in a few days. I've been keeping my Wii U from being updated on the off chance we catch a lead for some change in the update. And it's been 72 hours since that had last happened.

So, what's the deal with 41 frames of hitstun anyway? Is it just this game's version of the 13 minimum hitstun you suffered in brawl when air dodging? And we know there's a point where you have to suffer more than that even when air dodging, but the knockback has to be so large that you're put uncomfortably close to the blastzone.

I've got you covered.

I'm assuming from what you said that you counted '1' on frame 15 of Marth's D-throw animation as that is the frame that damage is dealt.

Marth is able to act on the 25th frame if you count from 1 as indicated above. If what you mean earlier is that there are 25 frames of actual lag and that Marth was able to act on the 26th frame, then this is a difference as you predicted.

For the following, I will assume that you were talking about e.g. 41 frames of actual hitstun, with the first frame Marth is able to airdodge upon being frame 42, and so I'll follow that format.

Double Jump (maximum hitstun): 43/48/53
Aerials: 43/46/47
Air Dodge (minimum hitstun): 41/41/41

And it's all the same ^. So the only thing to change is Marth being able to act 1 frame sooner.

 

[Fledge]

Not sure where to post this or if it's new, figured this thread is the best place. Saw a neat technique recently on YouTube called "Ledge Jump Cancel" (found by Sail Hatan Gaming and simplified by RocketshipSails), it's a useful, easy-to-use ledge getup option that allows you to get up onto the stage doing any special:

I've tried it with my main Roy, timing isn't that hard, works well and it's pretty good for mixups. I'm guessing it works with all characters.

 

[Vipermoon]

Not sure where to post this or if it's new, figured this thread is the best place. Saw a neat technique recently on YouTube called "Ledge Jump Cancel" (found by Sail Hatan Gaming and simplified by RocketshipSails), it's a useful, easy-to-use ledge getup option that allows you to get up onto the stage doing any special:

I've tried it with my main Roy, timing isn't that hard, works well and it's pretty good for mixups. I'm guessing it works with all characters.

Lmao this is really stupid if I'm understanding this right. It looks like a bunch of people don't know that the ledge jump animation is very short (12 frames for most chars) so they are simply taking advantage of that. There is no tech here and whether or not you hold the jump button shouldn't change anything.

 

[Fledge]

Lmao this is really stupid if I'm understanding this right. It looks like a bunch of people don't know that the ledge jump animation is very short (12 frames for most chars) so they are simply taking advantage of that. There is no tech here and whether or not you hold the jump button shouldn't change anything.

The trick of it isn't in how long the ledge jump animation is, but the timing of WHEN you can actually input an attack. Normally when getting up from the ledge using jump, you can't attack at any time until the height of your jump arc back over the stage, the game doesn't register any input in between. What this tech shows is that at a very specific timing in between the getup and the jump, you can interrupt the jump directly at the stage floor with a special, effectively allowing you to attack immediately on getup. it is a very small frame of time that you can do this and you can whiff it a lot, but that small window exists. It's not particularly different from My Smash Corners "Lagless Ledge Getup" in nature, and though it's limited it's far easier to pull off.