Q&A Mechanics & Techniques Discussion

[CHOMPY]

Pit lacks a really good way to catch people like that... Getting underneath and shooting an arrow up (which I believe has the same or similar cooldown as shooting in the air no matter what) and then throwing out a Nair would be the easiest frame trap of his, but unless you can get them to waste a double jump beforehand that's all that you'll get. If they did use up their jumps however, Usmash would be a great option.

I have seen Earth do it where he uthrows someone, then fires off an arrow to force someone to airdodge, and then frame traps them with the uair. Those are the type of stuff I need some help on. I never understood the mechanics of how to use frame data to our advantage. Most of the time, I depend on pure instinct and reading players habits to get me through.

 

[LancerStaff]

I have seen Earth do it where he uthrows someone, then fires off an arrow to force someone to airdodge, and then frame traps them with the uair. Those are the type of stuff I need some help on. I never understood the mechanics of how to use frame data to our advantage. Most of the time, I depend on pure instinct and reading players habits to get me through.

Well, you can technically follow up with almost anything depending on when the opponent airdodges. Nair is above and beyond the easiest way to do it successfully though.

If you want to get something slower off like a Uair or maybe a Bair you need to mix up your timing when shooting. They ideally want to dodge an arrow with the tail-end of their dodge to give you less time to punish. But you can hold onto the arrow and potentially punish an early airdodge with it, which'll condition the opponent to airdodge later and give you more ways to properly frame trap.

 

[Jams.]

What is going on here?

I don't understand Japanese, but the inputs make it look like a perfect pivot followed by a crouch+dsmash during the first few frames of the perfect pivot. I can't tell if he's using attack stick or smash stick (or if attack stick down + analog stick down even produces a dsmash =S). Does charging particular smashes make you retain momentum for a longer period of time?

 

[Lavani]

What is going on here?

I don't understand Japanese, but the inputs make it look like a perfect pivot followed by a crouch+dsmash during the first few frames of the perfect pivot. I can't tell if he's using attack stick or smash stick (or if attack stick down + analog stick down even produces a dsmash =S). Does charging particular smashes make you retain momentum for a longer period of time?

Certain attacks slide, others don't.

That said, the fact that a fully charged dsmash is doing the damage it should be doing uncharged means he's using speed equipment to exaggerate the effect. You don't get anywhere near that much slide otherwise.

 

[Jams.]

I see. That makes this video far less exciting. =/

 

[Masonomace]

Thanks for the answers on my previous question everyone.

Another question. It may seem like a silly question, but here goes. If you connect a hit with your move's sourspot, does it also stale the sweetspot? (Silly I know.)

 

[Lavani]

If you connect a hit with your move's sourspot, does it also stale the sweetspot?

It does.

 

[Locke 06]

Is the frame advantage on a grounded footstool the same across all characters, granted the victim goes into a "footstool" animation?

Bonus question: what is that frame advantage?

 

[Masonomace]

That's a good question! I was doing a test for Shulk in regards to his Jump art since Monado Jump reduces the height you leap during a footstool jump. Some characters aren't able to act out soon enough to put up shield by the time Jump Shulk's Dair comes out, which is frame 23 - 24. Characters like Pikachu can't put up shield, but a tall character like RosaLuma can for example.

 

[Pikabunz]

Is the frame advantage on a grounded footstool the same across all characters, granted the victim goes into a "footstool" animation?

Bonus question: what is that frame advantage?

All characters have different lengths of footstooling and footstooled animations, so the frame advantage is going to be different for every match-up.

Here are numbers on characters I tested:

Footstooling
Sheik - 8 Frames
Shulk - 7 Frames

Footstooled
Mario - 28 Frames
Bowser - 28 Frames
Pikachu - 28 Frames
Little Mac - 27 Frames
RosaLuma - 26 Frames

So if Shulk were to foolstool Pikachu, he would have a 21 ( 28 - 7) frame advantage .

That's a good question! I was doing a test for Shulk in regards to his Jump art since Monado Jump reduces the height you leap during a footstool jump. Some characters aren't able to act out soon enough to put up shield by the time Jump Shulk's Dair comes out, which is frame 23 - 24. Characters like Pikachu can't put up shield, but a tall character like RosaLuma can for example.

I just tried this and Pikachu shields it. I was using Jump Manado too. Are you doing something different?

 

[Masonomace]

I just tried this and Pikachu shields it. I was using Jump Manado too. Are you doing something different?

Oh.......I did this back then & it was guaranteed on Pikachu including other characters. Perhaps they changed the frame advantage of footstool?? That's interesting.

EDIT: Here's my post I made about the Jump art tapped footstool Down air guarantee back in March. I've tested the characters that it used to work on just now, & right now the Jump art tapped footstool jump into Down air no longer works on anyone.

 

[Horseketchup]

This is similar to a question I asked a few weeks back, but roughly how long between the first autocancel frame and the last active frame does an attack need to be able to reasonably autocancel after an on shield hit?

I'm sure fall speed affects it along with the positioning of the attack, but say for a character with around average fall speed: could you barely autocancel with something like 12 frames between the last active frame and the first AC frame on a typical front facing attack? And to what extent does this window change depending on the fall speed of the character?

 

[NickRiddle]

So I know this isn't a mechanic, but was I the only one unaware that you can dual-stick SDI Ryu's weak u-tilt (and probably d-tilt)?

 

[LancerStaff]

So I know this isn't a mechanic, but was I the only one unaware that you can dual-stick SDI Ryu's weak u-tilt (and probably d-tilt)?

I'd guess so, but isn't dual stick SDI janky as heck?

With the C-stick set to Smash the control stick won't be read as long as the C-stick is in use, with the attack stick it barely registers movement, and then when set to specials unless you make absolutely sure it returns to neutral it won't read any other inputs off of it.

 

[David Viran]

I'd guess so, but isn't dual stick SDI janky as heck?

With the C-stick set to Smash the control stick won't be read as long as the C-stick is in use, with the attack stick it barely registers movement, and then when set to specials unless you make absolutely sure it returns to neutral it won't read any other inputs off of it.

Didn't the c stick cutting off the control stick inputs get patched? I thought it did.

 

[LancerStaff]

Didn't the c stick cutting off the control stick inputs get patched? I thought it did.

Nope, was a false alarm.

 

[NickRiddle]

I'd guess so, but isn't dual stick SDI janky as heck?

With the C-stick set to Smash the control stick won't be read as long as the C-stick is in use, with the attack stick it barely registers movement, and then when set to specials unless you make absolutely sure it returns to neutral it won't read any other inputs off of it.

I mean, I use Smash Stick because I know how to return to c-stick to neutral quickly after inputting an aerial.
You can at least change the controls back to Smash Stick vs. Ryu if you're a character that gets bodied by utilt.

 

[Dagon97]

At what sort of % increments does rage get stronger? Is it based off of the color of percent?

 

[Pikabunz]

At what sort of % increments does rage get stronger? Is it based off of the color of percent?

I know it starts after 40% and seems to give about a 2.5% knockback increase every 10%. It's probably not exactly how it works but it's close.


Do we know what port priority affects?

 

[Vipermoon]

I know it starts after 40% and seems to give about a 2.5% knockback increase every 10%. It's probably not exactly how it works but it's close.


Do we know what port priority affects?

I thought port priority doesn't exist in this game.

 

[Pikabunz]

I know when two Little Macs try to KO punch at the same time, player 1 always wins.

 

[LancerStaff]

Do we know what port priority affects?

This is a minor one, but it effects how characters overlap. I think the higher the port number the closer to the screen you'll be.

 

[Pikabunz]

Do we know what port priority affects?

-If both players try to footstool each other on the same frame, player 1 always wins.
-If player 1 tries to footstool player 2 the same frame they put up their shield, player 2's shield will not come up and gets footstooled.
-If player 2 tries to footstool player 1 the same frame they put up their shield, player 1's shield comes up and player 2 footstools the shield.
-The above applies to frame 1 invincibility moves too. Player's footstool will take priority over it.
-If both players grab the ledge on the same frame, player 1 gets trumped every time.
-Player 1 ledge trumps player 2 on frame 1 of grabbing the ledge.
-Player 2 ledge trumps player 1 on frame 2 of grabbing the ledge.

That's all I got so far.

 

[LancerStaff]

Say, any idea how grab ties are determined?

 

[Pikabunz]

Grabs seem completely random.

 

[Vipermoon]

-Player 1 ledge trumps player 2 on frame 1 of grabbing the ledge.
-Player 2 ledge trumps player 1 on frame 2 of grabbing the ledge.

What do you mean by this?

 

[Pikabunz]

What do you mean by this?

P2 is hanging on the ledge and P1 decides to go down and take it from P2. On the very first frame P1 reaches for the ledge, P2 is forced off. If it was the other way around, P1 would still be holding on to the ledge as P2 starts to reach for it on the first frame. It isn't till frame 2 where P1 is forced off the ledge.

Player 1 basically has 1 frame faster ledge trumps, but this applies only after the other player has held on to the ledge for longer than their minimum hold time, which is 20 frames for most characters.

 

[Ulevo]

I know it starts after 40% and seems to give about a 2.5% knockback increase every 10%. It's probably not exactly how it works but it's close.


Do we know what port priority affects?

It should start by 30%.

 

[Dr. Tuen]

I know it starts after 40% and seems to give about a 2.5% knockback increase every 10%. It's probably not exactly how it works but it's close.


Do we know what port priority affects?

It should start by 30%.

This is why we need more rigorous testing methods along with clear dissemination of results. I hope to tackle the rage confusion after my dissertation defense (in December!). That way we can see which "I know" is right.

 

[Masonomace]

Well. . .for what it's worth, I tested Shulk's Air Slash in VS Mode format a while back to see what Rage did to Air Slash's set knockback for the sweetspot 6% up close. Here's that post from this thread. I used a custom stage with 1 grid unit platforms to see a visual difference of how high a character was launched with the Air Slash first hit sweetspot. It's not that helpful though, because no knockback numbers or anything.

EDIT: Here's a little bit of notes I made for the testing of Rage effect on a grounded Air Slash against Mario. I tested using a handicap on Shulk, had Mario be player 2, dealt enough damage to have the damage meter display the number I needed for testing, & watched what platform Mario would land on after being launched from the grounded Air Slash. I used a custom stage with platforms stacking up high 1 grid unit from each other.

• Shulk at 0 - 46% launches Mario 10 platforms high
• Shulk at 47 - 72% launches Mario 11 platforms high
• Shulk at 73 - 97% launches Mario 12 platforms high
• Shulk at 98 - 120% launches Mario 13 platforms high
• Shulk at 121 - 143% launches Mario 14 platforms high
• Shulk at 144 - 300% launches Mario 15 platforms high

Please keep in mind that decimal percentages are a thing in Smash Bros., so even though the damage meter says 46%, it could be 46.95% which is too close to being 47%. I used Mario Jab1 staled to rack up damage which wasn't the best way.

 

[Vipermoon]

Do we know how many frames after a character hits the ground are they able to be jab locked? And do we know the maximum number of frames allowed between each jab lock (to extend it)?

And does any of this different with knockback?

 

[Lavani]

Max Launcher Speeds of Mewtwo's uthrow, tested against 100% Dr. Mario on 3DS:

Mewtwo's % | Launch Speed
10% | 101
20% | 101
30% | 101
34% | 101
35% | 102
40% | 102

Seems like rage definitely starts before 40%, at least at 35% but it's possible/probable that there just wasn't enough of an increment to show a change in numbers until that point.

I remember reading it started at 30% somewhere, but can't remember the source or if there was anything backing it up.

 

[Pikabunz]

This is what I got:

Pikachu % | 200% Fox Launch Distance
0% | 131 ft
10% | 131 ft
20% | 131 ft
30% | 131 ft
40% | 131 ft
50% | 134 ft
60% | 137 ft
80% | 144 ft
100% | 150 ft
125% | 160 ft
150% | 170 ft

It could still be possible that it starts at around 30% if the game is rounding numbers.

 

[LancerStaff]

Can't we give Fox like 400% and do a Uthrow on the bottom side of Palutena's Temple? I believe if you stand on a platform down there you have a straight shot right off the top.

 

[Pikabunz]

Does Paluntena's Temple have a higher ceiling than the biggest custom stage?

 

[LancerStaff]

Does Paluntena's Temple have a higher ceiling than the biggest custom stage?

From a lower platform, I'm going to say yeah. Like, I'm talking about the lower platforms between the dungeon and the garden thing. Pretty sure you can shoot through the bridge (or break it if it's somehow a problem) right off the top from down there.

 

[Masonomace]

I went into Training Mode for this. A Large Custom stage from the bottom to the top is 56 grid units high. I have a platform floor for the base of the stage.

Using Mewtwo Uthrow for the testing move, Mario dies at 236% on the 56 grid unit platform stage, & on Palutena's Temple standing near the spring where the spikeball is nearby, Mario dies at 231%.

EDIT: When you move down the dungeon near the lower spring, stand up on the small area above it & be placed in a certain spot so that Mewtwo's Uthrow won't have Mario collide into anything. You must also wait for the upper left temple to leave the screen so allow Mario's knockback angle stay "straight" the whole way. Uthrown from here, Mario dies at 260%

 

[Yikarur]

if you test knockback values you have to use the 3DS because it gives you actually knockback values. WiiU Version gives you "flying speed" which is sometimes the same even though there are several percentages difference, because there are instances where you fly with the same speed, but farther. The 3DS gives you accurate numbers.

 

[Ulevo]

I know from testing kill %'s that it begins before 40%. The game will round using the ft calculator at the end game screen. For instance, if you kill off the top on Halberd 1 from the left side ledge as opposed to in the middle, it gives the same ft reading.

 

[Darklink401]

I found a thing :3