Q&A Mechanics & Techniques Discussion

[LancerStaff]

Well, there's 7 frames of shield lock, and a minimum 2 frames of shield stun, so at most it's 5 extra frames of safety.

Then if stun < 7 you tack on 7 - stun? Well, now wouldn't that mean positive hitlag modifiers can actually decrease your safety? Without hitstun modifiers Nair would actually be... -3. Hm. Now I'm wondering if Shaya knew about the "hard landing after AC" mechanic and didn't know about the hitstun modifier on Nair.

 

[Lavani]

Shield lock only ticks down during shieldstun, not hitlag. The modifier doesn't make a difference.

 

[LancerStaff]

Shield lock only ticks down during shieldstun, not hitlag. The modifier doesn't make a difference.

Whelp. I'm not good with remembering all these terms...

Still, that would mean Nair is actually -3 if you land the earlier hits on shield right?

 

[Lavani]

Whelp. I'm not good with remembering all these terms...

Still, that would mean Nair is actually -3 if you land the earlier hits on shield right?

There are 2 frame gaps between each hit in the move, so there's going to be little to no shieldlock remaining by the time the last hit's stun ends.

Worst case scenario (no shieldlock left) you'll be -5, best case scenario (last hit of nair hits frame 4 of a shield, 4 frames of shieldlock pass during shieldstun) you'll be -2.

A_Kae's math was off by a frame, t would be 34 (land frame 30, in landing lag for frames 30, 31, 32, 33, 34)

 

[A_Kae]

Ah, my error there may be due to my mixing of + and - for shield advantage. I'm very, very, dyslexic, so many choices are fine, but deciding between two is just obnoxiously hard to remember.

So, for clarification... how is this set up? Is more negative more safe?

More negative is less safe. The number is just the number of frames that you can act before the shielder. Negative means they can act before you, positive means you can act before they can.

 

[Ffamran]

So, more autolink angle shenanigans.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Should we have a study on moves with autolink angles? I remember Reflex figuring something about Wario's Dair.

 

[Vipermoon]

Yoshi's Dair spikes when it trades. But not because of autolink, the angle of the multihits are literally down but need to trade so the rest don't interfere.

http://www.kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Falco Looks like only some of them are autolink (for when it travels)

 

[Ffamran]

Yoshi's Dair spikes when it trades. But not because of autolink, the angle of the multihits are literally down but need to trade so the rest don't interfere.

That makes sense, but autolink angles and semi-spikes from trades don't. I mean, if they're supposed to make the victim follow you, then maybe it's supposed to make them stall in the air or be sent the same direction as well. 365 and 366 degrees are also technically 5 and 6 degrees, so no downwards stuff like 270 degree hit angles.

 

[Lavani]

Should we have a study on moves with autolink angles? I remember Reflex figuring something about Wario's Dair.

Wario's dair doesn't have autolinks, it has 250° spike hitboxes. Same case as Yoshi's dair like Vipermoon mentioned.

At any rate I don't know what there is to discuss on the topic, really. We've known about and used autolink spikes with things like Greninja/Sheik uairs, Meta Knight/Fox/Rosalina fairs (and MK bair), Luigi Cyclone, etc. since pretty close to release. Move in direction, interrupt attack, victim keeps going in direction.

 

[LancerStaff]

There are 2 frame gaps between each hit in the move, so there's going to be little to no shieldlock remaining by the time the last hit's stun ends.

Worst case scenario (no shieldlock left) you'll be -5, best case scenario (last hit of nair hits frame 4 of a shield, 4 frames of shieldlock pass during shieldstun) you'll be -2.

A_Kae's math was off by a frame, t would be 34 (land frame 30, in landing lag for frames 30, 31, 32, 33, 34)

Okay, I think I get it now. Shield lock looks like it'd take a very specific move to exploit...

 

[Lavani]

Some frame data questions:

• When you tether to the ledge, you aren't forced to hold on for as long as a normal ledge grab. Do we know what the minimum tether hold time is?
• How soon after a wall tech/wall jump tech can you act? Do these options have i-frames?

 

[I speak Spanish too]

How can I calculate shield stun in correlation to shield damage? Basically, how can I calculate the amount of frames my opponent is stuck in shield and my frame advantage. I am trying to find shield break set-ups.

 

[Vipermoon]

I can't figure this one out. It opposes all that we know.

Roy's short hop is 30 aerial frames,landing on frame 31. I know this because Bair can't autocancel (F32) but he can jump after Fair on frame 30. So yeah, landing on 31.

So why can't I SH Fair into a pre-hitbox AC window? Bair, Dair, and Uair all AC on frames 1 and 2 (Nair just frame 1, Fair nothing). I get landing lag even though frames 30 and 31 should be AC'ed when using any of those three aerials after Fair. Can someone hopefully explain this?

I even tried slightly delaying Fair after the SH (I'm pretty sure it was successfully delayed). I still got Uair landing lag.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Some frame data questions:

• When you tether to the ledge, you aren't forced to hold on for as long as a normal ledge grab. Do we know what the minimum tether hold time is?
• How soon after a wall tech/wall jump tech can you act? Do these options have i-frames?

Ignoring the amount of time it takes to actually ledge-snap, you can act immediately after a tether, i.e. on the very first ledge frame. Some options such as ledge jump and ledge attack can be buffered directly out of the input that reeled in the tether, while ledge roll can be buffered while reeling in the tether, and ledge get-up or letting go of the ledge cannot be buffered. That's why Tether Trumping is so good. (There's a larger write-up about it in the Link AT thread.)
But to answer your question, I believe the minimum hold time is zero frames.
Method of testing:

Spoiler

First I studied the differences in character model between the first and second frames of Link's ledge attack so that I knew them on sight. (Facing right, while not ledge attacking the shield is never raised to the head, on the first frame of ledge attack the shield is raised to the head, on the second frame the shield hand is raised to the ledge and both legs are bent.) Then it was a simple matter of tethering to a ledge, reeling it in with the grab button so that it buffered a ledge attack, slowly skipping forwards by two frames at a time and then noting whether the first frame that Link was on the ledge was either of the ledge attack frames. There was one frame just before the first frame of the ledge attack (i.e. one two-frame skip before the second frame of the ledge attack) that I was unsure about as it could have either been the last frame of the ledge snap or the first and only frame of the ledge-hang/hold, but I tested it with a smart bomb set-up and it didn't have invincibility so I'd say it's the last frame of the ledge snap.

The second question was easier to test.
There are 4 frames in the wall-tech animation allowing you to buffer an action to start on the 5th frame.
And there are also 4 frames in the wall-tech-jump animation.
Method of testing:

Spoiler

First I studied the first and second frame animations of Link's mid-air arrow. You can easily tell the difference by the angle of the sword. Then I got an opponent to hit me into a wall, frame-skipped forwards then held shield (or shield and upwards for the wall-tech-jump) and then as soon as I entered the tech animation I held special. Then I counted how many frames of the tech animation happened before I saw one of the frames of the arrow animation, and depending on what frame of the arrow animation it was, I could infer backwards how many tech frames had passed. Repeating this test so that I initially teched on both the first and second frames of the frame skip confirmed my findings.

Yes they do have invincibility frames. Timing it so that a held Bomb exploded during/after the tech and tech-jump didn't harm Link. As for how many invincibility frames, I'm not bothered to test right now (and you never specifically asked XD).

 

[LancerStaff]

I can't figure this one out. It opposes all that we know.

Roy's short hop is 30 aerial frames,landing on frame 31. I know this because Bair can't autocancel (F32) but he can jump after Fair on frame 30. So yeah, landing on 31.

So why can't I SH Fair into a pre-hitbox AC window? Bair, Dair, and Uair all AC on frames 1 and 2 (Nair just frame 1, Fair nothing). I get landing lag even though frames 30 and 31 should be AC'ed when using any of those three aerials after Fair. Can someone hopefully explain this?

I even tried slightly delaying Fair after the SH (I'm pretty sure it was successfully delayed). I still got Uair landing lag.

That'd be a universal mechanic. If you interrupt a move with another, rather then letting it finish, you can't get the early AC. I know it applies to Palutena's Uair, and Pit's N and Fspecial off the top of my head.

 

[Vipermoon]

That'd be a universal mechanic. If you interrupt a move with another, rather then letting it finish, you can't get the early AC. I know it applies to Palutena's Uair, and Pit's N and Fspecial off the top of my head.

By letting it finish you mean the animation?

 

[LancerStaff]

By letting it finish you mean the animation?

Yeah. With aerials you'll always get the landing lag of wha you used last. It's interesting when it happens with specials... If you don't interrupt the animation you'll land 100% lagless, if it doesn't induce a different falling state. With something like Pit's Fspecial it kinda hijacks the landing lag you'd normally get IIRC.

 

[jmjb]

what's the best way to get out of juggles?
I've tried things like holding down left or right, rapidly jabbing left or right, and air dodging.
I've seen people on scream escape juggles consistently, but I have no idea how they're doing it.
also I thought pressing up and down had no effect on DI/Vectoring, but I tested some down angles for surviving longer and they do in fact seem to help.
so now I know even less than I thought I knew before lol.
advice?

 

[Empoleon_master]

I don't know if this is new or something but there's a tiny flash of lightening that happens when ZSS uses her down smash, the position seems to be random. There are 3 positions for the lightening to be in: From just above ZSS to the center of the laser blast, above the center of the laser blast, and from the opposite of the first position I mentioned. I have NO clue if the lightening strikes have any different hit boxes etc or if this is all just aesthetic. I asked in the new member forum and even a forum mod didn't know, if someone that could somehow look into the files or whatever for the laser blast could answer this I would be extremely happy to read it as I'm super curious about it.

 

[Megamang]

what's the best way to get out of juggles?
I've tried things like holding down left or right, rapidly jabbing left or right, and air dodging.
I've seen people on scream escape juggles consistently, but I have no idea how they're doing it.
also I thought pressing up and down had no effect on DI/Vectoring, but I tested some down angles for surviving longer and they do in fact seem to help.
so now I know even less than I thought I knew before lol.
advice?

That is dependant on what is juggling you. If you play shiek, bouncing fish is generally a good escape option. Pika can quick attack cancel onto platforms, or just quickly go to the ledge or ground. Other characters arent so lucky; in some particularly bad cases some characters retreat to the ledge and try and start there. What is juggling you, and who are you playing? Timing an airdodge is strong but has counterplay and can get you read and killed... sm4sh has way better uairs than dairs, generally, so you are gonna take some juggle damage against good players.

 

[Dagon97]

I don't know if this is new or something but there's a tiny flash of lightening that happens when ZSS uses her down smash, the position seems to be random. There are 3 positions for the lightening to be in: From just above ZSS to the center of the laser blast, above the center of the laser blast, and from the opposite of the first position I mentioned. I have NO clue if the lightening strikes have any different hit boxes etc or if this is all just aesthetic. I asked in the new member forum and even a forum mod didn't know, if someone that could somehow look into the files or whatever for the laser blast could answer this I would be extremely happy to read it as I'm super curious about it.

Go here! http://smashboards.com/threads/game-play-advice-and-general-discussion.382927/page-32#post-19785339

 

[Masonomace]

Question: Does the shield damage modifier from a smash attack increase if you're charging the move?

 

[Dagon97]

Question: Does the shield damage modifier from a smash attack increase if you're charging the move?

No, unless you charge the move to the point of it doing more damage then yes but I don't know by how much nor do I think it is important.

 

[Vipermoon]

No, unless you charge the move to the point of it doing more damage then yes but I don't know by how much nor do I think it is important.

This answer is confusing (though I still understand it). And it doesn't matter if it matters the question is does this happen? I don't know but for some reason I think the bonus shield damage doesn't scale with charge. No idea why I think this.

 

[Lavani]

I feel like I remember someone saying it didn't scale too, but it's not something I've looked into/am able to look into myself.

 

[Dagon97]

This answer is confusing (though I still understand it). And it doesn't matter if it matters the question is does this happen? I don't know but for some reason I think the bonus shield damage doesn't scale with charge. No idea why I think this.

Persay if uncharged x smash attack will deal 18% and fully charged it deals 21%. The fully charged smash attack will deal more shield damage so no, it does not scale with charge.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

A lot of the time, when I am running, then turn around and press Z, it will do a pivot ftilt instead of a pivot grab. And when I say a lot of the time, I mean like 90% of the time it will do a pivot ftilt. Is there a problem with my control scheme? Do I need to set grab to a different button besides Z? Is it a problem with the controller itself? Does it have to do with my character choice (I was using Rosalina)? It was really annoying today, because I tried to pivot grab like 5 times and it only did an actual grab once.

 

[Lavani]

I'm not sure who I'm misunderstanding at this point, so I'll put it this way; charging a smash attack makes it do more damage, which makes it do more shield damage. To my knowledge, bonus shield damage doesn't scale with charging, equipment, etc.

For example, DK's usmash does 18% damage and +4 shield damage, so 22% shield damage uncharged.
On a full charge, it should deal ~25% + 4 = 29% shield damage.

A lot of the time, when I am running, then turn around and press Z, it will do a pivot ftilt instead of a pivot grab. And when I say a lot of the time, I mean like 90% of the time it will do a pivot ftilt. Is there a problem with my control scheme? Do I need to set grab to a different button besides Z? Is it a problem with the controller itself? Does it have to do with my character choice (I was using Rosalina)? It was really annoying today, because I tried to pivot grab like 5 times and it only did an actual grab once.

For pivot grabs it tends to work better to input grab before pivot, or input them around the same time. There's some leniency both ways and how you do it can cause sliding distance to vary between characters.

If you wait too long after pivoting to press the button you'll get a pivot ftilt instead.

 

[Vipermoon]

Thanks, Lavani. Yes, that is what I meant. And because bonus shield damage doesn't scale with equipment that is probably why I had a feeling it doesn't scale with charging. Another example I can think of is Shield Breaker which (unless fully charged) doesn't scale with charging (but this isn't a smash attack, still it probably applies the same).

Persay if uncharged x smash attack will deal 18% and fully charged it deals 21%. The fully charged smash attack will deal more shield damage so no, it does not scale with charge.

It turns out you actually misunderstood the initial question. Of course charged smash attacks do more shield damage because they do more damage; plain and simple. The question wasn't this, it was if shield damage modifiers remain constant OR scale with charging.

 

[WD40]

If you hit shield at the same time that you start a foxtrot, the character kinda does a grounded slide across the stage rather than the usual foxtrot animation. What is this technique called and does it really have any benefits over foxtrotting, or is it just a visual mixup?

 

[Dr. Tuen]

Heyo. Does anyone know the minimum ledge hold times for the general character population vs tether grabbers? Are there any other separations in ledge hold times other than those two categories?

Thanks!

 

[Lavani]

Heyo. Does anyone know the minimum ledge hold times for the general character population vs tether grabbers? Are there any other separations in ledge hold times other than those two categories?

Thanks!

Normal hold time is 20 frames, tether's apparently 0 frames.

Pikachu used to have a less-than-20f ledge hold, but it was nerfed to 20f awhile ago (1.0.6, I think?)

 

[TheHypnotoad]

For pivot grabs it tends to work better to input grab before pivot, or input them around the same time. There's some leniency both ways and how you do it can cause sliding distance to vary between characters.

If you wait too long after pivoting to press the button you'll get a pivot ftilt instead.

Aha, it's working now when I input them at the same time, or I input the grab before the pivot.

Thank you!

 

[LancerStaff]

For pivot grabs it tends to work better to input grab before pivot, or input them around the same time. There's some leniency both ways and how you do it can cause sliding distance to vary between characters.

Hm... I can't seem to get much if any variance in how far I slide with Pit's pivot grab. Any idea who varies the most?

 

[Lavani]

Hm... I can't seem to get much if any variance in how far I slide with Pit's pivot grab. Any idea who varies the most?

It was only something I just noticed when double-checking the inputs before replying, so I only checked Greninja and DK. It's pretty noticeable on Greninja though, he slides really far with grab>pivot but pretty much grabs on the spot with pivot>grab.

 

[CHOMPY]

Can anyone answer why there are times when you try to do a pivot grab, my character does a pivot f-tilt instead?

 

[LancerStaff]

Can anyone answer why there are times when you try to do a pivot grab, my character does a pivot f-tilt instead?

Means you gotta hit grab sooner.

 

[CHOMPY]

I also need help on figuring about the timing on frame trapping somone. I have seen players use two moves on someone where the first attack misses because the player is airdodges, but somehow seems to land the second move. Would I be able to pull off the aerials with Pit/Dark Pit is what I'm asking?

 

[Dr. Tuen]

I also need help on figuring about the timing on frame trapping somone. I have seen players use two moves on someone where the first attack misses because the player is airdodges, but somehow seems to land the second move. Would I be able to pull off the aerials with Pit/Dark Pit is what I'm asking?

Frame trapping is relatively straightforward to use, but it's a fairly complicated process to find a legitimate frame trap.

To frame trap someone, you need to use a move, cause an air dodge, then be available to strike when that air dodge is over. The faster your response time, the more likely it's a legitimate frame trap. For instance, I found that forcing an air dodge with a back air from ZSS sets up for an inescapable flip kick response. Timing wise, that works, though it's not very practical from a positioning standpoint.

Interestingly, air dodging early prevents a lot of frame traps, since the dodging party can now respond before your second move hits. This means that even true frame traps have counters, and you must watch for it carefully. The one exception to this may be a forced air dodge into the ground. If you can make that happen, they pretty much have to eat your response.

Generally, to set this up, you want a move with low cool down followed by a move with fast start up.

I'm taking a really fast look at Pit, but don't take my word as law, there may be more to find. But, as a first glance, I don't see much that works. His down air has 27 frames of end lag on it, and Pit's air dodge (used as the example to save time) takes 32 frames. The invulnerability starts on frame 2, so subtract a frame and get 31 frames of waiting for a perfectly timed air dodge. You then need a move that starts in 4 frames as a response to that missed air dodge. If you are in the air, nair works. If you are forced to land, this doesn't work due to the added landing lag. NOTE. If your foe dodges early (say, they dodge your down air using the 10th frame of invulnerability) they will recover faster and the nair won't hit.

Alternatively, Pit's arrows are likely the other potential solution here. If your foe starts above you and you fire forward, wrap back around and force and air dodge, you can jump and up air, neutral air, back air, etc as a response.

Anyways, I hope that helps get you started on the search.

 

[LancerStaff]

I also need help on figuring about the timing on frame trapping somone. I have seen players use two moves on someone where the first attack misses because the player is airdodges, but somehow seems to land the second move. Would I be able to pull off the aerials with Pit/Dark Pit is what I'm asking?

Pit lacks a really good way to catch people like that... Getting underneath and shooting an arrow up (which I believe has the same or similar cooldown as shooting in the air no matter what) and then throwing out a Nair would be the easiest frame trap of his, but unless you can get them to waste a double jump beforehand that's all that you'll get. If they did use up their jumps however, Usmash would be a great option.