Q&A Mechanics & Techniques Discussion

[DanGR]

How well known is it that you can drop through platforms near the end of your pivot? It's the quickest way to start the match on battlefield with a drop-through bair.

 

[-RedX-]

Is there a visual for that? I haven't heard of anything like that.

 

[DanGR]

Is there a visual for that? I haven't heard of anything like that.

I can upload an example later tonight or tomorrow if you'd like, but it's not difficult to perform if you have access to the game.

 

[-RedX-]

Does it work because near the end of your pivot, you're essentially returning to neutral? Would make a lot of sense if that's the case.

 

[DanGR]

Does it work because near the end of your pivot, you're essentially returning to neutral? Would make a lot of sense if that's the case.

You can jab with the same timing, so it seems related to that window.

edit:

 

[Vipermoon]

Looks like it's maybe possible to tech everything?

Okay things are explained in this vid reply.

 

[Shaya]

Heh, I knew visually there was something off by their close to the wall tech situations. I thought it could've been the custom walls themselves but the original point made on lag synchs slipped our minds.

 

[busken]

Are these all of the options?

 

[Xygonn]

Just posted in the wario thread, but once wario rides his bike he is flagged as grounded for the remainder of the round. Moves get grounded target knckbck damage and angle instead of aerial target. Dying doesn't reset his flag. Captain falcon cannot spike wario with utilt for example. Samus can (and shouldn't be able to).

Edit: seems wario has to jump off with special or maybe be knocked off. If he jumps off with jump it seems to fix the flag.

 

[Locke 06]

How does gravity work?

lol

But actually. How does gravity affect knockback mathematically and how can I account for it when trying to get a total knockback number for hitstun? I know it affects it vertically... but other than that I'm kind of lost when it comes to gravity.

 

[san.]

Just posted in the wario thread, but once wario rides his bike he is flagged as grounded for the remainder of the round. Moves get grounded target knckbck damage and angle instead of aerial target. Dying doesn't reset his flag. Captain falcon cannot spike wario with utilt for example. Samus can (and shouldn't be able to).

This explains a really old 3DS video where Ike was able to spike a Wario with eruption offstage. The spike hitbox should only trigger against grounded opponents.. Very odd bug.

 

[Shaya]

Just posted in the wario thread, but once wario rides his bike he is flagged as grounded for the remainder of the round. Moves get grounded target knckbck damage and angle instead of aerial target. Dying doesn't reset his flag. Captain falcon cannot spike wario with utilt for example. Samus can (and shouldn't be able to).

So in other words Roy counters Wario because he can probably still get his blazer/up-b sweetspot on Wario while he's in the air that kills early?
At first I was wrapping my head around the idea you meant "grounded" (the spike item, ZSS, Villager, DK induced state) and how is it possible to have him take reduced knockback forever without people noticing... lol

This would also mean Falco down airing Wario will always send him upwards rather than spike... something like this probably hasn't been seen before because that grounded/aerial hitbox split was only recent, but should've been noticed by someone pretty quickly had they been playing the match up regularly at all.

Heh.
Actually does running off the ledge/platform alter this state at all?
It's one of those scenarios where the game "awkwardly" swaps you between grounded and aerial states.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

So in other words Roy counters Wario because he can probably still get his blazer/up-b sweetspot on Wario while he's in the air that kills early?
At first I was wrapping my head around the idea you meant "grounded" (the spike item, ZSS, Villager, DK induced state) and how is it possible to have him take reduced knockback forever without people noticing... lol

This would also mean Falco down airing Wario will always send him upwards rather than spike... something like this probably hasn't been seen before because that grounded/aerial hitbox split was only recent, but should've been noticed by someone pretty quickly had they been playing the match up regularly at all.

Heh.
Actually does running off the ledge/platform alter this state at all?
It's one of those scenarios where the game "awkwardly" swaps you between grounded and aerial states.

Not really an awkward swap at all in SSB4 since they added that fancy new tumble-off-the-edge that transfers your momentum. But I guess since it is a different sort of forced swap then yeah it could be worth checking.

 

[Vipermoon]

I, too, want to know more about this and can't believe we are hearing about it now.

 

[Xygonn]

I, too, want to know more about this and can't believe we are hearing about it now.

Samus mains noticed this in like January but we shrugged it off as rare. I recently decided to lab everything better after the 50 vs 42 shield hp thing.

 

[-RedX-]

Just posted in the wario thread, but once wario rides his bike he is flagged as grounded for the remainder of the round. Moves get grounded target knckbck damage and angle instead of aerial target. Dying doesn't reset his flag. Captain falcon cannot spike wario with utilt for example. Samus can (and shouldn't be able to).

That explains this:

So in other words Roy counters Wario because he can probably still get his blazer/up-b sweetspot on Wario while he's in the air that kills early?

Almost positive that Roy's Aerial UpB is considered as a different move from grounded UpB, different BKB/KBG values depending on if Roy himself did it in the air/ground.

 

[Shaya]

oh yeah, whoops, obviously the interaction is from Roy, not the other way around #_#

 

[Vipermoon]

That explains this:

Almost positive that Roy's Aerial UpB is considered as a different move from grounded UpB, different BKB/KBG values depending on if Roy himself did it in the air/ground.

EDIT: Whoops, dub post.

Anyone else watch this like 15 times?

 

[Ixisnaugus]

I have an enquiry regarding move interruptibility, or IASA, apologies if this was explained previously in the thread. I believe most moves have this, correct? Do all forms of IASA work the same way? As in, can you interrupt any move with the property with the same actions you could for another move with the property? Or are the possible actions you can interrupt with specific to that move? I recall reading a long time ago that IASA was a move specific property and not frame specific, so I assume it's the latter, but I'd like some clarification.

 

[-RedX-]

I have an enquiry regarding move interruptibility, or IASA, apologies if this was explained previously in the thread. I believe most moves have this, correct? Do all forms of IASA work the same way? As in, can you interrupt any move with the property with the same actions you could for another move with the property? Or are the possible actions you can interrupt with specific to that move? I recall reading a long time ago that IASA was a move specific property and not frame specific, so I assume it's the latter, but I'd like some clarification.

It's frame specific, all forms of IASA work the same. However, when dealing with animations, IASA tends to occur before the actual animation is finished, if that makes sense.

I think the only exceptions are most DTilts because you're left crouching at the end of the animation, you're not allowed to walk in the opposite direction as an interrupt. Might need to double check this.

 

[Vipermoon]

You also cannot drop through platforms. I don't know if it's only Dtilt IASAs but that's how Marth's works (and he lags forever if that animation finishes).

 

[ぱみゅ]

So Wario has a glitchy mechanic? We better ban him.

 

[Zage]

I remember reading somewhere that ledge grab and ledge get-up have less invincibility frames the higher percent you're at, but I'm unable to find the source anymore. Anyone know if this is true or if it applies to other ledge options?

 

[Fanttum]

I remember reading somewhere that ledge grab and ledge get-up have less invincibility frames the higher percent you're at, but I'm unable to find the source anymore. Anyone know if this is true or if it applies to other ledge options?

TheReflexWonder did a video on this
Not sure if get up's are effected.

 

[GusTurbo]

Saw this posted today on reddit, so-called "Sliding Pivots":

It looks potentially useful, though I hear it's a carry-over from Brawl.

 

[oBeast]

So i have searched for this but cannot find reliable information.
I am wondering where do i find the frame data for things such as, after you hit the shield button how many frames does it take for shield to come out? When you get up on ledge, how many frames of invincibility? when you use jump to get up, how many frames of invincibility for that?
when you let go of shield, how many frames until you can act again? Or .. When is the 2 frame window for hitting someone on ledge snap? ect.. ect.. ect..


I am surprised there is not already a sticky thread that just contains all this data, since it would apply to all characters.
If someone has the info, please make a sticky with all the info, or I can eventually edit this post to contain all the data in the top post so its easy to find.

*EDIT* sorry mods for posting in wrong spot, but i really really, wish a moderator would make a sticky with all the smash mechanics and frame data on the first post of the sticky, would make things really simple.

 

[Ulevo]

Not sure if this was previously known or not, but the passive damage taken while being in close proximity to the blast zones stops dealing damage at 150%.

 

[ぱみゅ]

That is known as Hoop Damage or Magnifying Glass Damage, and yes, it's been like that since Melee.

 

[Vipermoon]

Hey guys so uhhh... that 2 frame ledge grab vulnerability? Ever wonder what happens when (Dr.) Mario's cape interacts with that? It's probably exactly how you're picturing it in your head. It's attached, take a look LMAO.

Edit: flip your screens over because no matter what I do it always goes in upside down

 

[Pikabunz]

The attachment isn't working but they grab the ledge backwards, right?

 

[Vipermoon]

The attachment isn't working but they grab the ledge backwards, right?

That's odd. I can view it just fine. Did you try it since my last edit? But yes basically reflect a ledge grabbing Marth across the Y-axis. He's grabbing the ledge facing the other way.

 

[ぱみゅ]

That glitch was possible even in Brawl in a very, very, very obscure rate.
Weird, as that game didn't have snap vulnerability.

 

[Vipermoon]

That glitch was possible even in Brawl in a very, very, very obscure rate.
Weird, as that game didn't have snap vulnerability.

I don't know if I would call it a glitch in this game if it connects during a vulnerable moment and reverses.

Are we sure Brawl's ledge grabs were invincible from every direction? Dumb question for such an old game but people might have done too much assuming. It looks like in Brawl's case that would mean cape > starts grab animation backwards even though your character can grab normally from behind. That would be a glitch no doubt.

 

[TriforceOfAura]

Here's an incredibly noobish question that isn't probably worth your time, but anyways... What are the frames for Lucas's grab? He's my competitive main, and I need to... Git Gud, for lack of a better term.

 

[Ffamran]

Here's an incredibly noobish question that isn't probably worth your time, but anyways... What are the frames for Lucas's grab? He's my competitive main, and I need to... Git Gud, for lack of a better term.

Head over to the Lucas boards instead since this thread is more for general Smash 4 mechanics and techniques. Lucas boards are here: http://smashboards.com/forums/lucas.525/.

Lucas has a frame data thread up: http://smashboards.com/threads/lucass-frame-data.407447/. Simple answer: frame 12-19 for standing and pivot and frame 14-21 for dash.

 

[epicnights]

Two questions. Has the formula for knockback been derived for smash 4 yet? And would it be possible to use the in-game measurement of ft that is given in the results screen as a standard for stage and blastzones size? It'd be a more accurate standard than "Fox up-smash kills Mario at x% on this stage".

 

[A_Kae]

Has the formula for knockback been derived for smash 4 yet?

Knockback = ((((((t+d)/10+(((t+d)*d)/20))*(200/(w+100))*1.4)+18)*(g/100))+b)
Weight Based Knockback = ((((((10/10)+((10*s)/20))*(200/(w+100))*1.4)+18)*(g/100))+b)

t = Target Damage
d = Attack Damage
w = Target Weight
g = Knockback Growth
s = Weight Based Knockback
b = Base Knockback

Hitstun frames is the knockback value * 0.4 (rounded down).

Example 1: Marth's tipped forward smash hitting another Marth at 40%:

t = 40
d = 18
w = 90
g = 80
b = 80

Since it's not a move with weight based knockback, the regular knockback formula is used.

((((((40+18)/10+(((40+18)*18)/20))*(200/(90+100))*1.4)+18)*(80/100))+80) = 162.779

Example 2: Diddy Kong's jab 1 hitting Meta Knight.

w = 80
g = 100
s = 24
b = 0

Since the move has weight based knockback, the weight based knockback formula is used

((((((10/10)+((10*24)/20))*(200/(80+100))*1.4)+18)*(100/100))+0) = 38.222

 

[Gibbs]

Can anyone point me to a write up on shield push back mechanics and how it relates to traction/rage/BKB? Similarly I remember seeing a traction tier list early on, but also discussion and conflicting results about how different stages might have different traction properties. Have these details been worked out yet? Is traction stage dependent or universal for a given character?

 

[Vipermoon]

I cannot direct you but I thought knockback didnt matter and it was just damage in that regard.

 

[Sonic Orochi]

Maybe already discussed, but did anyone notice that you can actually jump with the A button when running off a platform? Timing is very strict, but it's a thing.

It can be quite frustrating when trying to go for bair stage spikes ASAP but seems to work quite alright in order to completely nullify the Spin Roll momentum for Sonic.