Q&A Mechanics & Techniques Discussion

[Shaya]

Hello and welcome to the Mechanics & Techniques General.

This thread is dedicated to taking the overflow of game and engine questions and discussion as well as what should be the first place you bring any information on discoveries you have made.

Not sure how an advanced technique works or how to apply it? Noticed something interesting with the engine that was unexpected?
This is the thread for you.

Hit Stun Cancelling http://smashboards.com/posts/20106322

Wall Teching and easy techs from grabs http://smashboards.com/posts/20770363

Staling Move Knockback Modifier http://smashboards.com/posts/20693883

http://smashboards.com/threads/mechanics-techniques-discussion.368206/page-45#post-20134546

http://smashboards.com/threads/mechanics-techniques-discussion.368206/page-45#post-20151594

http://smashboards.com/threads/mechanics-techniques-discussion.368206/page-45#post-20165880

http://smashboards.com/threads/mechanics-techniques-discussion.368206/page-45#post-20173257

http://smashboards.com/threads/mechanics-techniques-discussion.368206/page-46#post-20174178

http://smashboards.com/threads/mechanics-techniques-discussion.368206/page-46#post-20177391

http://smashboards.com/threads/mechanics-techniques-discussion.368206/page-46#post-20181535

http://smashboards.com/threads/mechanics-techniques-discussion.368206/page-46#post-20187812

http://smashboards.com/threads/mechanics-techniques-discussion.368206/page-46#post-20191257

http://smashboards.com/threads/mechanics-techniques-discussion.368206/page-47#post-20210203

http://smashboards.com/threads/mechanics-techniques-discussion.368206/page-48#post-20233216

http://smashboards.com/threads/mechanics-techniques-discussion.368206/page-49#post-20263251

http://smashboards.com/threads/mechanics-techniques-discussion.368206/page-50#post-20279841

http://smashboards.com/threads/mechanics-techniques-discussion.368206/page-50#post-20283134

http://smashboards.com/threads/mechanics-techniques-discussion.368206/page-50#post-20297235

http://smashboards.com/threads/mechanics-techniques-discussion.368206/page-50#post-20307349

http://smashboards.com/threads/mechanics-techniques-discussion.368206/page-51#post-20311612

http://smashboards.com/threads/mechanics-techniques-discussion.368206/page-51#post-20311880

http://smashboards.com/threads/mechanics-techniques-discussion.368206/page-51#post-20317191

http://smashboards.com/threads/mechanics-techniques-discussion.368206/page-52#post-20336984

http://smashboards.com/threads/mechanics-techniques-discussion.368206/page-52#post-20339761

http://smashboards.com/threads/mechanics-techniques-discussion.368206/page-53#post-20343127

http://smashboards.com/threads/mechanics-techniques-discussion.368206/page-53#post-20343186

http://smashboards.com/threads/mechanics-techniques-discussion.368206/page-53#post-20344068

http://smashboards.com/threads/mechanics-techniques-discussion.368206/page-53#post-20349170

http://smashboards.com/threads/mechanics-techniques-discussion.368206/page-53#post-20364442

http://smashboards.com/threads/mechanics-techniques-discussion.368206/page-53#post-20370357

http://smashboards.com/threads/mechanics-techniques-discussion.368206/page-55#post-20403598

http://smashboards.com/threads/mechanics-techniques-discussion.368206/page-55#post-20422475

http://smashboards.com/threads/mechanics-techniques-discussion.368206/page-55#post-20427636

http://smashboards.com/threads/mechanics-techniques-discussion.368206/page-55#post-20428025

http://smashboards.com/threads/mechanics-techniques-discussion.368206/page-56#post-20432596

http://smashboards.com/threads/mechanics-techniques-discussion.368206/page-56#post-20454758

http://smashboards.com/threads/mechanics-techniques-discussion.368206/page-57#post-20492021

http://smashboards.com/threads/mechanics-techniques-discussion.368206/page-58#post-20520392

http://smashboards.com/threads/mechanics-techniques-discussion.368206/page-58#post-20550660

http://smashboards.com/threads/mechanics-techniques-discussion.368206/page-58#post-20559148

http://smashboards.com/threads/mechanics-techniques-discussion.368206/page-58#post-20563573

http://smashboards.com/threads/mechanics-techniques-discussion.368206/page-59#post-20570328

http://smashboards.com/threads/mechanics-techniques-discussion.368206/page-59#post-20574977

http://smashboards.com/threads/mechanics-techniques-discussion.368206/page-59#post-20584860

http://smashboards.com/threads/mechanics-techniques-discussion.368206/page-59#post-20589325

http://smashboards.com/threads/mechanics-techniques-discussion.368206/page-60#post-20625426

http://smashboards.com/threads/mechanics-techniques-discussion.368206/page-60#post-20626390

http://smashboards.com/threads/mechanics-techniques-discussion.368206/page-60#post-20646556

http://smashboards.com/threads/mechanics-techniques-discussion.368206/page-60#post-20647899

http://smashboards.com/threads/mechanics-techniques-discussion.368206/page-60#post-20653485

http://smashboards.com/threads/mechanics-techniques-discussion.368206/page-60#post-20655192

http://smashboards.com/threads/mechanics-techniques-discussion.368206/page-60#post-20656600

http://smashboards.com/threads/mechanics-techniques-discussion.368206/page-60#post-20661420

http://smashboards.com/threads/mechanics-techniques-discussion.368206/page-61#post-20670559

http://smashboards.com/threads/mechanics-techniques-discussion.368206/page-62#post-20684990

http://smashboards.com/threads/mechanics-techniques-discussion.368206/page-62#post-20692046

http://smashboards.com/threads/mechanics-techniques-discussion.368206/page-62#post-20692283

http://smashboards.com/threads/mechanics-techniques-discussion.368206/page-62#post-20693883

http://smashboards.com/threads/mechanics-techniques-discussion.368206/page-62#post-20694681

http://smashboards.com/threads/mechanics-techniques-discussion.368206/page-63#post-20696384

http://smashboards.com/threads/mechanics-techniques-discussion.368206/page-63#post-20701871

http://smashboards.com/threads/mechanics-techniques-discussion.368206/page-63#post-20715814

http://smashboards.com/threads/mechanics-techniques-discussion.368206/page-63#post-20716087

http://smashboards.com/threads/mechanics-techniques-discussion.368206/page-64#post-20723903

http://smashboards.com/threads/mechanics-techniques-discussion.368206/page-65#post-20764161

http://smashboards.com/threads/mechanics-techniques-discussion.368206/page-65#post-20769845

http://smashboards.com/threads/mechanics-techniques-discussion.368206/page-65#post-20773795

Compiled by @Vipermoon64

 

[Gaggy Rogers]

Is there any concrete data on how DI/SDI function yet? How about info on stale move negation, besides this video? I'm particularly interested in knockback scaling, but any information on the general topic should certainly come in handy.

Is it just me, or does Link's dair end faster if you manage to get both hits off? It seems that you're free to act again shortly after the second hit, regardless of the amount of lag you would've had.

Actually, normal moves seem much quirkier in general than they were before. I've gotten Link's dair to deal 18 on the first hit instead of 15, but if it's a sweetspot, then it's a tough one for me to land consistently. Same goes for the trips on Pikachu's fair and down tilt. I'm not sure if this game just has tight sweetspots, or if there's something else going on. I certainly can't play as well on the 2ds as I could on a Gamecube controller.

 

[Shaya]

Stale Moves seem to be congruent to Brawl. A nine move queue that scales damage and knockback of moves based upon
1. The amount of instances in the queue
2. Where in the queue each individual instance is.

Moves that are used most recently will be scaling down damage/knockback more than those you used 8 moves ago.
The maths involved seem to be slightly different to Brawl, but more research is needed.

Moves that enter the queue need to hit an opponent, hitting shields or whiffing does not count.


SDI/DI are really unknown to me and anything definitive is yet to be tested out.

A lot of aerials in Smash "autocancel" (the true definition of it, not the misnomer of it just being landing lag) after the hitboxes of the attack are over, this is especially common in the case of moves that stay out for long periods of time. If you get two hits out of Link's down air, then you've likely reached the auto cancel window of the move.

 

[Gaggy Rogers]

Stale Moves seem to be congruent to Brawl. A nine move queue that scales damage and knockback of moves based upon
1. The amount of instances in the queue
2. Where in the queue each individual instance is.

Moves that are used most recently will be scaling down damage/knockback more than those you used 8 moves ago.
The maths involved seem to be slightly different to Brawl, but more research is needed.

Moves that enter the queue need to hit an opponent, hitting shields or whiffing does not count.


SDI/DI are really unknown to me and anything definitive is yet to be tested out.

A lot of aerials in Smash "autocancel" (the true definition of it, not the misnomer of it just being landing lag) after the hitboxes of the attack are over, this is especially common in the case of moves that stay out for long periods of time. If you get two hits out of Link's down air, then you've likely reached the auto cancel window of the move.

Thank you for the run down of SMN, but I was already aware of how it functions in Brawl, generally. Has it been tested whether or not knockback staling is in this game?

I was also aware of auto-cancelling (although I do appreciate the helpful attitude), and Link's dair is not auto-cancelling. I actually can't even get the ground before it ends most of the time. It does seem to auto-cancel if you can manage to get the 2nd hit while low enough to the ground and fast-fall it, though. No, I'm talking about the move ending mid-air. If you hit the sandman without fast-falling, you actually have more than enough time to get out any aerial, including fair.

Actually, now that I've looked at it again, it seems to me that the move is just ending naturally. That makes me feel kind of silly, but at least now I have another way to combo people on the ground! Thanks much for the answers.

 

[SonicZeroX]

Does anyone know if it's possible to Meteor Cancel in this game? I have yet to see one pulled off.

 

[Shaya]

Has it been tested whether or not knockback staling is in this game?

I'm pretty sure this has been confirmed. But I could be wrong.

 

[!BSP]

Edge slip mechanics. Did they change at all?

Are footstools still un-techable?

Are all grab release shenanigans removed? Or air release vs ground release stuff (are the factors that determine air release vs. ground release the same?)

Can you still wavebounce and b-reverse?

Are jab locks still in?

 

[Pikabunz]

Wavebounce, b-reverse, and jab locks are still in. Also, the upb grab gimp is still in. I just did this to Mega Man and he fell to his doom spamming sideb.

Here's a list of mechanical stuff I posted in another thread:

General
-No RCO lag.
-You cannot regrab someone for a few seconds after letting them go.

Fast Fall
-Can be canceled by using an aerial attack or b move.
-A fast fall can be done again after being canceled.
-You cannot fast fall a b move. (?)

Buffering
-You can no longer buffer multiple actions. (e.g., jumping nair, dash grab)
-Buffering dash, tilts, and grab are now easier as you no longer have to release the input before the buffer window.

Air dodge
-There is now landing lag when you air dodge
-You still retain the landing lag after the air dodge ends for about a second. This can be canceled completely by using an aerial with start-up autocancel frames right before you land.

Ledge
-You can now steal the ledge from someone that's already holding it.
-You do not get ledge invincibility when you regrab the ledge.
-Ledge options no longer change after 100% damage.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

It seems that you can jab lock only with the first 3 jabs, the 4th always breaks the lock (at least with Pikachu)

 

[Pikabunz]

It seems that you can jab lock only with the first 3 jabs, the 4th always breaks the lock (at least with Pikachu)

That could be due to Pikachu's jab staling too much or you're hitting with the weak part of jab (jab has a weak hitbox now that does 1%). In Brawl, Pikachu couldn't jab lock till about 60% because of how weak it is.

 

[Ghoti]

I don't know if this has been posted here already, so I am sharing this here.

I just found this video showing off a new combo by ZZS, and it's quite powerful. Can someone test this to see if it is escapable?

 

[Shaya]

So Zero Suit's footstool infinites from Brawl were an oversight. Glorious.
(Only other character who could do them were Ice Climbers and Diddy Kong, the latter may be still able to).

If there is no SDI on the down smash, laser or footstools (i.e. no control from the opposing player at all) it's a problem. There's also a chance it's weight dependent.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

 

[SonicZeroX]

So Zero Suit's footstool infinites from Brawl were an oversight. Glorious.
(Only other character who could do them were Ice Climbers and Diddy Kong, the latter may be still able to).

If there is no SDI on the down smash, laser or footstools (i.e. no control from the opposing player at all) it's a problem. There's also a chance it's weight dependent.

Bananas now vanish on hit so I don't think it should be possible for Diddy to infinite anymore.

 

[Sliq]

How do the new ledge grab mechanics work? I heard that if you try to edgehog you get knocked off or something?

 

[snaptrap]

So Zero Suit's footstool infinites from Brawl were an oversight. Glorious.
(Only other character who could do them were Ice Climbers and Diddy Kong, the latter may be still able to).

If there is no SDI on the down smash, laser or footstools (i.e. no control from the opposing player at all) it's a problem. There's also a chance it's weight dependent.

Footstool infinites could be fixed by making them tech-able.

 

[Bravo]

Grabs no longer have armor like in Brawl, i.e. if a player grabs and gets hit at the same time, the grab is released and damage is taken. Has happened plenty of times, so I'm pretty sure of it. Tested this in the demo.

 

[d z]

Wavebounce, b-reverse, and jab locks are still in. Also, the upb grab gimp is still in. I just did this to Mega Man and he fell to his doom spamming sideb.

Here's a list of mechanical stuff I posted in another thread:

When you say you can cancel fastfall by using an aerial attack or b-move is this the same behavior from melee and brawl or do you mean that inputting an attack while in fastfall actually returns you to slowfall speed?

 

[Pikabunz]

If you're fast falling, using an attack makes you slow fall again.

 

[d z]

Interesting, I wonder what the reasoning for this was, maybe to make it easier to dair w/o fastfalling on the c-stickless 3ds.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

That could be due to Pikachu's jab staling too much or you're hitting with the weak part of jab (jab has a weak hitbox now that does 1%). In Brawl, Pikachu couldn't jab lock till about 60% because of how weak it is.

I'm betting they instituted an artificial cap on the number of times you can bounce someone before they go into a Melee-style reset instead.

Oh by the way, while we're on the subject of mechanics:
it seems that knockback that cannot be applied to the target is instead applied to the attacker if the target does not go into tumble. This means that if you use a rapid jab on an opponent against the wall, you will be pushed back until you are out of range. This effect is especially noticeable if you spam a rapid jab on the credits in Classic Mode. It's actually extreme enough that Bowser can occasionally be pushed back by hitting a foe with his fire breath, no walls involved.

Interesting, I wonder what the reasoning for this was, maybe to make it easier to dair w/o fastfalling on the c-stickless 3ds.

Actually, in Brawl it was pretty much impossible to perform a falling DAir without fastfalling as I recall, since IIRC even C-sticking the aerial would put you into fastfall due to counting as a Control Stick + Attack input.

 

[Signia]

Actually, in Brawl it was pretty much impossible to perform a falling DAir without fastfalling as I recall, since IIRC even C-sticking the aerial would put you into fastfall due to counting as a Control Stick + Attack input.

Aerial down-tilt A confirmed too technical

 

[Thinkaman]

Actually, in Brawl it was pretty much impossible to perform a falling DAir without fastfalling as I recall, since IIRC even C-sticking the aerial would put you into fastfall due to counting as a Control Stick + Attack input.

Attack stick (rather than Smash) bypassed this.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

Aerial down-tilt A confirmed too technical

Eh, I wasn't even aware you could avoid fast-falling DAirs with a DTilt input in the first place, probably because I almost always just C-stick aerials, and whenever I don't I never worry about input timing anyway. Plus all my friends are thoroughly casual, so it almost never got in the way, nobody ever pointed out that I was doing it wrong, and I never discovered that there was a reliable way to avoid fastfalling on a DAir myself despite all the times I've accidentally fastfalled Pit's DAir and ended up with massive landing lag. Oh yeah, and outside of playing Pit most of the time when I DAir it's either: A) an aerial that resets aerial momentum anyway, B) a stall-then-fall, or C) performed on a rising short hop.

 

[Signia]

@ JamietheAuraUser Yeah it's just like doing uairs without the cstick without double jumping.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

@ JamietheAuraUser Yeah it's just like doing uairs without the cstick without double jumping.

Don't have to deal with that anymore; I turn Tap Jump off. Besides, I swear the input timing is tighter for non-fastfalled DAirs in Brawl than it is for non-double jump UAirs in Melee. Then again, I haven't played Melee in forever and never got particularly good at it, so it could just be confirmation bias. And I rarely ever do aerials without the C-stick anyway unless I'm using NAir.

Edit: But this is thoroughly off-topic, so let's get back to the part where trying to perform a wall infinite on someone pushes you back instead. I think that's a pretty cool change actually.

 

[Ryuutakeshi]

Since I was directed here, I'll ask my followup question.

So, in this video I'm apparently foxtrotting with Pika

So, based on the speed and distance he goes, would this be a better alternative to pivoting with Pika? It turns him around pretty much instanteously and can be attacked out of at any point. The timing is a bit finicky but I'm already getting the hang of it. It's certainly not unique to Pika, but his is the fastest and furthest of the demo characters. Thoughts?

 

[Shaya]

Well you can't do much out of it, only dash attack/grab, side b or jump and you can't vary the timing or distance traveled.

 

[Ryuutakeshi]

Well you can't do much out of it, only dash attack/grab, side b or jump and you can't vary the timing or distance traveled.

I can shield, roll, tilt, and I'm pretty sure I just managed to smash as well (though it seems you can only do it immediately on the turnaround so it's really tricky. Only managed it 4 times). You also don't slide around until you end the chain so it keeps you moving back and forth constantly.

I suppose it's not that big of a thing, but I was curious if it had potential.

 

[Shaya]

At the end of the foxtrot, you can do all those things, sure?

 

[Ryuutakeshi]

At the end of the foxtrot, you can do all those things, sure?

Yeah. As soon as pikachu hits the ground from the initial jump you can time it so that he tilts behind him when he does the slide. And if timed just right I can get a side smash. You can do it after any of the hops, be it the first or fifth.

I find this is easiest on Pika, but it could just be me.

 

[Shaya]

Yeah, at the end of foxtrots you can do all those things, but the list before was all you can do during the animation.

It has it's uses, you can, to an extent, use it as if it were dash dancing. But it's really not about "whether I should/can use this" and more so... just using it to see? Characters with good dash attacks, good rising aerial options or in some cases side-bs loved fox trots (i.e. Marth) in Brawl, ICs loved foxtrots in Brawl because it was an easy means of desyncing and dash grab is broken and cannot be reacted to.

Etc etc

So does Pikachu have a good dash grab, dash attack, a good rising aerial out of a jump? Then you'll probably like getting used to it.

 

[Ryuutakeshi]

Yeah, at the end of foxtrots you can do all those things, but the list before was all you can do during the animation.

It has it's uses, you can, to an extent, use it as if it were dash dancing. But it's really not about "whether I should/can use this" and more so... just using it to see? Characters with good dash attacks, good rising aerial options or in some cases side-bs loved fox trots (i.e. Marth) in Brawl, ICs loved foxtrots in Brawl because it was an easy means of desyncing and dash grab is broken and cannot be reacted to.

Etc etc

So does Pikachu have a good dash grab, dash attack, a good rising aerial out of a jump? Then you'll probably like getting used to it.

Well, the reverse tilt out of the trot is faster tham his normal dash attack, the jump into fair seems faster, and on the turn he does his standing grab animation instead of his dashing grab animation.

The only things I seem to be able to interupt the maneuver with are side b and roll, though it's a pretty fast animation so it doesn't give me much time to work with. Still, it seems like it makes some of pikachu's attacks quicker and he can instantly turn around so I guess it has its uses.

 

[Ghoti]

So, have we talked about Hydrant Dashing yet? It's using Pac-Man's hydrant to slide you across the screen while charging a smash. I saw @Mew2King perform this while going against VGBC on a Twitch Stream.

 

[Shaya]

Probably best to keep it to the pacman boards?

 

[Muster]

On Zero's stream ( and apparently others) he mentioned that keeping the control stick in a down direction when hit reduces knockback as a whole. I've tested it myself and it seemed to work, i was surviving 20+% longer than before.
Edit: This is a mistake on my part, as this mechanic is actually part of a new technique known as vectoring.

 

[infiniteV115]

This topic should be your port of call over making new threads.
This is not a social or general "anything" thread.

Oh, my bad.

I made this thread before I came here I swear. To be fair, in my experience these techniques are not only very underutilized but the general populous seems to know next to nothing about them, so I thought it'd be helpful to make a thread about them while the metagame was still young.

 

[SonicZeroX]

Can someone with the full version of the game figure out who can and can't walljump and wall cling?
With off stage kills being so important this game, having a wall jump could be a very important tool for edgeguarding.

From the demo I've tested that Mario, Pikachu, Megaman, and even Villager can wall jump while Link can't.

 

[Captain Norris]

Hey guys! I have some exciting info I would like to share tomorrow! It deas with a mechanic that ma or may not be known. It involves the air dodge surprisingly. I do not want to give too much away because I wil be uploading a video of it tomorrow. I think there will be some interesting ideas involving this, since each character uses this mechanic differently! Anyway,tomorrow afternoon, expect a video of this surprise! I cannot promise it will be gamebreaking, but I know someone will use it to their advantage!

 

[kataridragon]

I kind of noticed something wierd while playing Mario in the demo. Noticeably works with Megaman as well.

First you start a full run, then you return the control pad to neutral for a brief moment, then grab.

His grab seems to jump forward and the hitbox control more space. Kinda like the turnaround grab from a run except you don't turn around. Aim for like frame 3-5 (feels like) after the neutral stick.

It seems like your canceling the first frames on the stop animation to jump forward.

Try compared to a full run into grab.

Interesting at least.