Matrix Air Dodge (tentative title)

[Problem2]

I've been told that this discussion has been going on before, but I haven't been able to find it in any of the threads, and because it is currently just scattered in the main threads, I thought making this thread can allow us to narrow this discussion.


MY IDEA IN A NUTSHELL:
- Make Airdodge slow down to 2/3 speed. If I'm not mistaken, this could be done by cutting all momentum (even gravity)by 2/3 and then multiplying it by 3/2 at the end of the airdodge.

- It would be even better if we could go crazy and make it 3/4 speed during the vulnerable frames of an airdodge, and then 2/3 during the actual dodging frames. This would make the animation looks more fluid and smooth.

The story to why I thought of this is below.

The reason to resurrect the idea of modifying airdodging came from the debate of NADT vs ADT. The common argument that being able to airdodge out of tumble is a necessary option, yet when allowed becomes the best option in every situation. Either way, this clearly shows that airdodging needs some sort of nerf (NADT is an airdodge nerf). My suggestion is to go with the idea to slow down the decent of the airdodge.

Now initially, I thought that lowering the gravity during airdodge would be cool. The problem with airdodging is even IF you see it coming, you rarely can actually punish it unless you are already on the ground. Several times I wanted to just jump into my opponent's face and watch them airdodge and then hit them on the way down, but most of the time, they gain the positional advantage as well. If the opponent fell more slowly during an airdodge, you could get them to start an airdodge, and then fast fall below your opponent and hit them.

The problem though... doing this would make air dodging a great recovery tool. Because it actually lowers your gravity, you would be able to float back to the stage safely by continuously air dodging. I guess this wouldn't 'hurt' anything, but it would be unnatural and generally ********. That's when I thought that it should instead slow down in all directions. That way, you can't gain horizontal distance by falling more slowly. It would also look and feel better as well imo.

Overall, I think this would make Airdodging a more precision based tool. While dodging and shielding on the ground is often risky business as you are forced to either waste a chunk of time rolling, or stay in one spot. Airdodging allows you to maneuver for spacing purposes AND become invulnerable. Airdodging isn't necessarily ******** right now, but why settle for okay, when we can make things better?

 

[Metatitan]

why not just slap a title on b+ saying melee 2.0? not to be rude (i think i already was but meh) but i think if we did anything to the airdodge it would make it too much like melee

 

[Andarel]

Because this idea (which is better than a couple of other ones I've seen, hm.) has little to do with Melee airdodging. In Melee, airdodge sent you into freefall, unlike in Brawl. The fact that this doesn't is alone enough to make it have no relation - I can't tell if you were being serious or just don't understand his idea.

Anyhow, I like the suggestion, not sure if it's possible. Worth considering...

 

[Problem2]

This form of air dodging would not send you into freefall, nor would it be a directional air dodge. It's exactly Brawl's airdodge, except you float more essentially. The argument is that it would help because it takes from the airdodges ability to re-space.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

I dub this "Matrix Airdodge". xD

But seriously, it sounds like a pretty solid idea in theory.

When actually playing though, it could be a little flow breaking. What about fastfalling and ADing? How would this code handle that?

 

[Team Giza]

I do think airdodging needs some fixing but with something a bit more subtle. I don't want it feeling too different.

 

[BEES]

I'm opposed to slowing anything down in the game at all. Airdodging needs to be made faster, if anything. I would merely remove invulnerability frames from it to make it more dangerous.

SHADing is a huge part of the metagame currently. This idea would essentially remove it, thereby simplifying the game. Think very hard about that if you're considering it.

 

[kupo15]

I already brought this idea up and we like it enough to try it. SHADing is a powerful approach and you would still be able to do it, you would just touch down a little slower. The idea is dgrav be less, not ugrav.

@person asking about FF Ades: I don't know. I hope it removes it. One major flaw about the air dodge is the fact that you can FF air dodge and with these upped gravity and FF settings, it takes you one air dodge from the top of the screen to get to the bottom. Yea, big problem right there.

Also, in order to not have the exact same problem HAD had, which was super recoveries, we should limit air dodging to 1 so you choose the recovery boost or the air defense, but not both.

 

[Metatitan]

i personally dont like the idea, it would aid the recovery of a lot of characters and would probly end up changing the metagame too much

 

[Swordplay]

No.....

Just go with Shanus's idea.

If character X is in tumble, AD after 2 frames

 

[Sterowent]

The problem with airdodge changes for brawl is that they don't take on the nature of the original.

For instance, melee's airdodge was an active tool used usually close to the ground (not considering WDing for this) or while escaping bad spacing, through extreme DI and invulnerability. Its purpose was situational avoidance though because of its huge drawback, freefall. MAD was an active tool but flawed, just one of many options also flawed but in other ways.

Brawl airdodges are active in the way of executing, but their purpose is that of a passive nature. BAD is an avoidance tool usable in any aerial situation the player has control of but does not give the player control of his or her situation, only one viable option -- recovering the status quo.

Edit: I forgot to mention how Brawl and B+, compared to rest of smash, have a much less intimate relationship between the air and ground games, as air is the more significant of the two because of the time spent in it in comparison. This isn't as extreme in B+ because of some physics changes, but it's still lopsided I think.
Because of that, aerial avoidance is prone to multiple use when heading back to the ground. I bet that's one of the keypoints the development team considered when designing BAD...I'd keep that in mind as well.
In fact, i think the OP did just that...

Discussing how good BAD is at doing this is basically why these ideas are thought up, but what's not taken into account when these are presented is that Brawlers are used to a very passive tactic when recovering ground. So, these ideas always seem outrageous, even if they aren't.
Of course, there are other things to consider, such as WDing and SHAD, but the point is mostly that Brawlers will have a hard time accepting an active AD instead of a passive one. The only viable options are introducing something within the range of between 'middle of the road' and still inherently passive. Like shanus's suggestion, which, really, is still passive for the most part.

Frankly, I'd like more active techniques -- at normal speed or faster with winddown/dehabilitation flaws -- but I haven't seen one that 'clicks' in my head yet. shanus's seems like it would at least work to make ADing flawed like the other aerial defensive options though instead of its crazy present strength(though it's kinda NADT without the wobblez + some prediction).

 

[BEES]

So here's one alternative I would propose:
-airdodge does not affect momentum in any direction. You retain your old momentum.
-airdodge is extremely short. It lasts as long as a spotdodge, or possibly even shorter.
-in certain situations, such as a tumble, there is a lag before initiating the airdodge.

I think this would offer faster gameplay with more punishable, but at the same time more active airdodges.

 

[cman]

I'm not sure I understand the point behind this idea. Are you trying to make it so that airdodges can't be used to approach?

 

[timothyung]

Why not add a few (around 5) frames of landing lag when landing while ADing?
In that way the air dodge is a bit more punishable, but it shouldn't hurt SHADing too much.

 

[Pleather]

So here's one alternative I would propose:
-airdodge does not affect momentum in any direction. You retain your old momentum.
-airdodge is extremely short. It lasts as long as a spotdodge, or possibly even shorter.
-in certain situations, such as a tumble, there is a lag before initiating the airdodge.

I think this would offer faster gameplay with more punishable, but at the same time more active airdodges.

I get that idea, and for all I know it might work, but I'd just like to point out one thing. Again, I don't know if anybody would agree with me here, but I think making the AD faster would actually make it less punishable. If you've ever AD'ed prematurely in a faulty attempt to make it safely back to the stage, you probably know what I mean. If you happen to do this, and your opponent happens to still be on the ground for whatever reason, he can punish you in most cases.

If you were to speed the AD up, it would not only make it easier to double up AD's to avoid fake outs, but also allow indefinite spamming of AD's. Unless of course, by "in certain situations," you mean practically all situations [will give it lag].