forward
Smash Champion
Exactly that, you can't go directly backwards. You don't have any more room to space yourself, wavedashing and dash dancing at the ledge is the same thing as standing still.
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Mathos is freakin insane with lasers!!!!!
- Thread starter Drephen
- Start date
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mathos
Smash Champion
But all of Falco's play is repeatative. So where you're at should not matter as much, unless it stops you from performing the advancement, pillar, and/or spike shine combos. Falco can start all of those from the ledge or the middle. The middle of the stage only helps retreating.
When near the ledge near really only 2 things that happen with lasers. Either you get hit or you halt the opponent. The opponent can be halted in 2 ways, being hit and shielding. If the latter of the first options become apparent then there are multiple ways to continue the match, basically starting the combo or retreat to the other side. If you get hit instead of halting the opponent with the laser, then that is bad timing on your behalf but that is something that can be worked on.
EDIT: Forward I've noticed that we play completely different Falcos. So I am really enjoying this conversation.
When near the ledge near really only 2 things that happen with lasers. Either you get hit or you halt the opponent. The opponent can be halted in 2 ways, being hit and shielding. If the latter of the first options become apparent then there are multiple ways to continue the match, basically starting the combo or retreat to the other side. If you get hit instead of halting the opponent with the laser, then that is bad timing on your behalf but that is something that can be worked on.
EDIT: Forward I've noticed that we play completely different Falcos. So I am really enjoying this conversation.
forward
Smash Champion
Of course you can start them at anytime, but it's how you start them. You like to start with lasers, so your opponent is guessing when you are going to advance within your lasers. If they guess correctly when you advance, then they gain the upper hand, if they guess correctly that you are going to laser, they can make their advance accordingly. If you are in the middle of the stage, their advance is less threatening, since regardless of what it is, you have room to run away. If they keep predicting your laser however, you will find yourself against the ledge, in which case if they predict your laser again, you are going to be knocked off the stage.
Now at any point within lasering from the middle of the stage to retreating back and lasering to the edge of the stage, you can advance. It's 50/50 mix up. If you rshl when your opponent advanced they did not gain the advantage, they are still playing your laser game.
When you have no where left to run to however, their advance MUST be delt with, you either have to sheild, roll, dodge, jump, etc. Once you perform one of these actions you have just given them the advantage.
You must attack now, if not, you are giving them the upper hand. If you are in the middle of the stage, and you don't attack, you are still even.
Now at any point within lasering from the middle of the stage to retreating back and lasering to the edge of the stage, you can advance. It's 50/50 mix up. If you rshl when your opponent advanced they did not gain the advantage, they are still playing your laser game.
When you have no where left to run to however, their advance MUST be delt with, you either have to sheild, roll, dodge, jump, etc. Once you perform one of these actions you have just given them the advantage.
You must attack now, if not, you are giving them the upper hand. If you are in the middle of the stage, and you don't attack, you are still even.
mathos
Smash Champion
You never have to advance. Waiting in itself is a mindgame. If you watch Drephen's play style wiht any of his characters, he waits. Sometimes long, sometimes short, sometime no waiting, and sometimes he retreats.
Having the opponent know when your advancing, I wouldn't say, puts you at a disadvantage. Not many characters can do anything in a pillar with the exception to rolling, which still doesn't help in truly gifted Falcos b/c they can adjust to when and where they roll.
Back to the edge game. Not many characters have combos or moves that are versitile enough to come from above through lasers anyway. The edge is respectably safe for Falco, not as much as the center of the stage, but then again not a lot of characters like playing on the edge for prolonged periods of time.
Having the opponent know when your advancing, I wouldn't say, puts you at a disadvantage. Not many characters can do anything in a pillar with the exception to rolling, which still doesn't help in truly gifted Falcos b/c they can adjust to when and where they roll.
Back to the edge game. Not many characters have combos or moves that are versitile enough to come from above through lasers anyway. The edge is respectably safe for Falco, not as much as the center of the stage, but then again not a lot of characters like playing on the edge for prolonged periods of time.
JBM falcon08
Smash Master
I agree with Mathos about the edge being safe for falco, but not at all times, i'm always cautious when playing against fox near the edge at low percents due to shine spikes, i'd rather play it safe and do pillaring in the middle of the stage and then have the person DI themselves in the pillar waveshine combo towards the edge, then advance for the kill rather than trying to dair/spike someone off of the edge at lower percents, due to edge techs and the possiblility of getting shine spiked.
remember i'm only talking about against fox.
remember i'm only talking about against fox.
mathos
Smash Champion
Well, its impossible to efficiently laserspam fox or falco. They are the most mobile characters in the game, and have lasers of their own. They will either spam back or reach you regardless of the spam. They are the only characters where I cannot find an efficient way to laser spam. The only way that has proven slightly useful is to use a retreating lasers following by an advancing laser and repeat, but it only works for a short period of time.
Black Hayate
Smash Lord
marthos, you are my hero, i want to play falco just like you
btw what is better jumping back and forth while SHL or SHL at same spot
btw what is better jumping back and forth while SHL or SHL at same spot
Mista Sinista
Smash Lord
I think mathos should change his tag from MATH to LAZR.
jamz
Smash Journeyman
u know mathos, i from what i have gathered about ur falco is that as u said a "hit and run" method but also a high risk/high reward too. i think it is very clever. i also think u dont have to be as technical (in a sense, which is nice) since ur main objective is to get them off the ledge which may only require a d-air , shine, and a b-air. then u can leave the rest to falcos edge game. and it would be much easier to retreat on an open lvl RHSLing. fightin in the middle of the lvl u have to be more technical. they have more options to get away. ur combos have to have more hits (thus increasing error) to yield the same results as fightin on the ledge. it also leaves less room to retreat, since i firmly believe in falcos manuerability to get to the open side of the lvl when fightin on the ledge. however, i havent got over falcos flashy game fever and thus yielding in losses. im goin to try some off the things u mentioned. seems like it may prove beneficial thanks
i still struggle more than usual against opponents with projectiles, mainly samus and doc. how do u camp them when they spam back and get them to advance?
i still struggle more than usual against opponents with projectiles, mainly samus and doc. how do u camp them when they spam back and get them to advance?
mathos
Smash Champion
Mista Sinista: I think thats a flippin' sweet idea. At FC6 I used SPAM as a tag. LAZR shall be next.
Jamz: It really depends on how they are trying to spam you.
For Doc, avoiding pills isn't too bad. You need to know where the pills are going. Falco is able to spam Doc back, assuming the Doc doesn't like to or know how to properly cape your lasers. I lot of Doc's game against Falco is grabs, so ideally you would want to stay away from him. Make Doc come to you, your lasers reach farther than the pills. So when he comes to you, leave your mark. However many Doc's won't try and camp Falco back.
For Samus, if she is using super missles then she should lose this battle. Lasers should stop her from FFMC. However if Samus is using full jumped homing missles spam becomes significantly harder. You need to take her to a platform stage to make it harder for her to produce homing missles. The best advice against the homing missles is to time your advancing and retreating lasers very carefully. The Samus will capitalize on the successful homing missles.
Jamz: It really depends on how they are trying to spam you.
For Doc, avoiding pills isn't too bad. You need to know where the pills are going. Falco is able to spam Doc back, assuming the Doc doesn't like to or know how to properly cape your lasers. I lot of Doc's game against Falco is grabs, so ideally you would want to stay away from him. Make Doc come to you, your lasers reach farther than the pills. So when he comes to you, leave your mark. However many Doc's won't try and camp Falco back.
For Samus, if she is using super missles then she should lose this battle. Lasers should stop her from FFMC. However if Samus is using full jumped homing missles spam becomes significantly harder. You need to take her to a platform stage to make it harder for her to produce homing missles. The best advice against the homing missles is to time your advancing and retreating lasers very carefully. The Samus will capitalize on the successful homing missles.
Wave Bird
Smash Apprentice
I dislike Laser spamming.
But I like Mathos. ;D
But I like Mathos. ;D
jamz
Smash Journeyman
i have tried to incorporate the use of laser spamming in matches and i have trouble sometimes on platform stages with characters wavelanding on the platforms to approach me. so i tried a new tactic. i ran up to them at appropriate times and SHLwith decent spacing till they approached, then pulled them to the ledge with RSHL and proceeded to look for the easy K.O. it worked pretty well in a couple matches, and i was wondering what u thought about that. i am still gettin myself out of falcos flashy game and many of my other matches i play techincal and not smart which caused me to get owned by some of central florida's finest.
mathos
Smash Champion
Well SHL isn't always the way to go. If you know or think your opponent is going for an upper platform just use a full jump laser. You have to be careful though, if the opponent is close enough and you time incorrectly you may get destroyed.
Technical is a great way to play. But everyone can be technical, you just need to learn mindgames and strategies that work for you.
Technical is a great way to play. But everyone can be technical, you just need to learn mindgames and strategies that work for you.
jamz
Smash Journeyman
^ yea i learned the gettin destroyed part the hard way. i have noticed that playing in this new method has screwed my opponents pretty hardcore, and not just the ones who i regularly play. it has worked on many who ive played for the first time. thx again
mathos
Smash Champion
dashing? are you hitting the jump button? Most people's problem is phastasming off the ledge.
MVPaintballer
the lil d that could
I think the whole point of the laser is the rack damage and make the other guy charge you like g-reg mentioned in his mindgame thread. Oi am i right?
jamz
Smash Journeyman
i never thought of the laser as a damage dealer, maybe it is in mathos case though 
. it only does 2-3% each hit and even if u get 30% of a spamming session, the frustration and mental damage u did ur opponent is way more significant than the 30%. i like to think of lasers as a snake's venom. once the venom has shut the enemy down, the snake is free to eat its prey alive
. it only does 2-3% each hit and even if u get 30% of a spamming session, the frustration and mental damage u did ur opponent is way more significant than the 30%. i like to think of lasers as a snake's venom. once the venom has shut the enemy down, the snake is free to eat its prey alive mathos
Smash Champion
Well put Jamz! I like the analogy to snakes, very creative.
jamz
Smash Journeyman
^ thx mathos. i heart u. whoever thought a science major would know anything about rhetoric. LAWL.
woot 200 posts .
woot 200 posts
.
zuloon
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Jun 28, 2006
- Messages
- 418
You think that's insane?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqhoEoOtloo
Look at bombsoldier in the beginning.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqhoEoOtloo
Look at bombsoldier in the beginning.
mathos
Smash Champion
As much as I hate the fanatic love everyone seems to have with bombsoldier I'm glad you think he laser spams, when in reality he seems to use a lot more pillars and only advancing lasers. He does however know to laser if he can't continue a combo and the opponent won't be able to hit he back for the laser. I like how you say "the beginning" as if the match had a date with it, I'm sure somewhere though you are going to prove me wrong from some obsecure website. But to clarify the match Drephen linked is well past its time. But regardless I believe the laser artist still has his sly lasery ways to handle such a matter.
Paintballer: The lasers have too many a purpose: damage, advancement, retreating, edgeguarding, partner saving, halting an advancing opponent. It's what makes he top tier, dare I say better than Fox.
Jamz: We must play, I would like to see your improved technical Falco. And as for damage lasers deal 1%-3%. But of course they actually can do less than 1% but its some strange decimal so I round up (they also can do 1.5 or 2.5 and such but the game needs a whole number for the appearence of percentages).
Ryan-K
Smash Master
Bombsoldier is your false idol.
Mathos and Forward are the only true path to the way of the Falco.
Mathos and Forward are the only true path to the way of the Falco.
Lixivium
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Mar 26, 2006
- Messages
- 2,689
Bombsoldier doesn't spam with the laser, he rushes with it. If you shield his laser + aerial he starts pillaring, and if you don't shield you get shine combo'd.
Laser spam is more useful for whittling away your opponent's shield so you can reach under it with a D-tilt.
Ah but the speed and quantity of shooting with the laser is only the beggining... mathos is also incredibly adept at knowing how to set up combos with his lasers.
As far as I'm concerned laser spamming is possibly the only concrete and super effective mindgame that works EVERY time... I have yet to meet someone who doesn't get frustrated by getting whacked by a wall of lasers nonstop! Unless of course your opponent is mathos and then he will be happy that you are spamming and join you... outspam you... and destroy you.
One of the things that makes me happiest about lasering is that spamming from afar is pretty much purely reliant on muscle memory so it gives me more time to think and plan ahead while the opponent is busy being pissed off/ figuring out a way to just get around your lasers.
Davidyor
Smash Apprentice
any mathos laser spam videos on youtube or google?
mathos
Smash Champion
Unfortunately only FC3's crew battle matches No one likes Mathos enough to tape him. I think DaShizWiz may have some vids. Oh wells.
No one likes Mathos enough to tape him. I think DaShizWiz may have some vids. Oh wells.
BIG C
Smash Master
viperboy is even more insane i mean he did beat mathos's corneria record
Um I believe the term "mindgame" doesn't stem from using your own mind... I believe it has to do with affecting your opponents mind. Everything in this game in terms of technical skill has to do with muscle memory. You cant tell me that effective use of dash dancing can't be considered a mindgame even though it simply requires you to tap the control stick back and forth.... or wavelanding or wavedashing backwards for a fake out etc etc.... wtf do any of those have to do with using your mind >_>
mathos
Smash Champion
Ummmm unfortunately lasers are best mindgame. To say they aren't a mindgame is to say that I tap buttons and win. The idea of lasers is to change your opponents game and/or make him think you're doing something else: i.e. retreating and advancing lasers, full jump triple lasers, full jump double lasers, LHDL, ledgehop sinlge laser, full jump single laser, and the most infamous of all SHL.
brawlpro
Smash Master
Yes, this is some crazy **** mathos does.
Drolian
Smash Journeyman
Nice necromancing, brawlpro, LOL. You bumped this topic from the dead.
Anyway, Mathos should have a combo video, it would be epic.
SPOILERS
CHILLINKILLSMATHOS
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qik2IKbNZ5E
UBER DI @ 4:02
rofl I wonder what shining would do to Mathos' game.
Jay kay. Mathos <3.
I wonder how many lasers Mathos can shoot in 1 minute.
brawlpro
Smash Master
shoo, i'll make him a combo video like i made chillin one! Because i luv that falco. Also that clip where chillin killed mathos is in the chillin combo video.
after i'm done with a project.
btw i think he can shoot 120 in 60 secs.
after i'm done with a project.
btw i think he can shoot 120 in 60 secs.
brawlpro
Smash Master
i go mathos on everybody!!!
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