Matchup Rediscussion: Sonic
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Quotes:
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Zelda vs Sonic
- What to know about this matchup...
- Sonic's speed and attack mixups give him good options to bait and punish. Shield is particularly good against spindash approaches - though relying on it too much will start getting you grabbed. Retreating Nairs, spaced Fsmashes and Dtilts amongst other spacing tools can challenge other approaches. Attempting to get above sonic's approaches and Dairing him can prove effective as a mixup. Dtilts clank with all of his spindash and grounded attacks.
- He is hindered by kill power. Sonic's ability to rack on damage is balanced by mediocre kill power. Don't confuse this with Sonic's killing ability - he will ensure Zelda is at high kill percents to guarantee his kill moves are successful. Learn the timing and spacing for his Fsmash and Bair. His Fsmash has notable drawback that can confuse Zelda's spacing - learn not to overextend unnecessarily with a whiffed attack to avoid punishment. Be aware that sonics like to charge Fsmash also. Keep note that ducking and Dtilting avoid Sonic's SH Bair, which can be useful if he attempts this OoS.
- His tilts can make for good trades against her trascendent priority. His ranged dtilt and ftilt can contend with Zelda's fastest ground options. When using something of transcendant priority in a close encounter, space correctly, as his tilts can often trade if both attacks connect at the same time; his trades will be more damaging. On the ground, it is important to space and thus override his priority if you consider using transcendant attacks - keep this in mind when spacing Fsmash, Jab and Ftilt.
- Attempt to get a lead on him. Easier said than done. You don't want to be on the approach here, as Zelda's defence, as with many characters, outweighs her offence against him. Mixing up standard spacing tools like Fsmash, Nair etc with power aerials bring out chances to catch him out of his fast movements; they cover a lot of space in a short amount of time so it's down to you to track them and attempt an early killshot if possible.
- Sonic can get consecutive grab chains. Sonic can chase an opponent's DI and attempt to grab them as they land on the ground. This is particularly effective against Zelda because she falls slowly to the ground and doesn't have a decent defence to cover her as she lands. Attempt landing on a platform or try to never lose your double jump so you can mix that in. Other options include Nayru's and Nair autocancelling. FW has too much cooldown to be effective at escaping this situation due to his ground speed.
- OoS punishment and chasing is effective for Zelda. Sonic's attacks can often physically place him in positions where Zelda can excel. Shielding spindash attacks can cause him to go aerially above Zelda as she remains grounded, placing him in a position to be chased and punished by Zelda's anti-aerial game. A grounded Sonic is prone to OoS Bair and Dtilt punishment by Zelda. Sonics will mix in running and pivot grabbing from time to time to throw opponents off - try to anticipate or predict this and counter with spotdodge > whatever, or intercept the grab.
- Always take the ledge when recovering. Sonic can very speedily chase the reappearance of Farore's. If he edgehogs and forces a stage landing, he can only really punish with a grab or a DA, which would have otherwise been replaced with a Bair or Fsmash if you landed on stage near him.
- Sonic has a multitude of recovery options. He will always make it back on stage. However, the nature of his spring up+b recovery allows setting up for a sweetspot spike for added damage or catching him with a kick or Uair at the apex. Using Din's to snipe the apex will force the airdodge, allowing a followup - otherwise he will take damage from din's. If he goes low enough so that he sweetspots the ledge with the spring, you can attempt the edgehog, and if he makes it over the edge and lands, Zelda can attempt an Fair sweetspot. Zelda can cover spring's options quite well. Against spindash recoveries, try to track his trajectory and snipe him with an aerial, or stay grounded and chase him closely.
- Most importantly for this matchup, PLAY SMART, DON'T LAG. Sonic excels at punishing anything remotely laggy. Using Nayru's Love, Usmashes, Din's Fires etc... as a means of countering some of Sonic's methods of dealing damage can be seen as curses in disguise - these can be very easily baited and punished. Keeping somewhat lagless with Jabs, Dtilts, Fsmashes, Nairs and mixing in some of the unexpected are the keys to giving Sonic a harder time.
- Useful Information...
- Bair OoS Sonic's jabs and tilts or if any other opportunity arises. Jabs can be countered consistently at any distance on your shield. Tilts require sonic to ever-so-slightly mispace. If you're close enough to him, you can sweetspot.
- Punish Sonic's DA on hit at early percents. DI towards him and Lightning Kick his cooldown to revenge trade or if it's too spontaneous simply rain down Nair and follow his trajectory upon autocancelling. At later percents you'll be launched too far away.
- Simply don't bother with Din's Fire on a grounded Sonic.It gives sonic a free grab, or a chance to reset spacing. He is too fast to make Din's a tool for harassment. However, Din's Fire can give an aerial sonic a trickier time.
- Attempt to SDI his Fair, Usmash and Uair. Fair near the blastzone can put Zelda in a trickier position so it's important to SDI upon contact. SDI up and away. Uair can SDId sharply to the left or right at higher percents to avoid the second hit (though sonic's can time to only hit with the second hit). Beware that Usmash can unexpectedly spike near the edge if you SDI wrongly.
- LKs can offer a good trade against some of Sonic's key moves. It is possible to trade a lightning kick against his spindash mobility attacks. His aerials can all be traded also. Trading requires you to be ensure precision and be a risk taker - if you're not confident, don't do it.
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Quotes:
Okay, now for the more specific (although just as generic) information.
Don't bother with Din's fire. If Sonic's standing on the stage there practically isn't a situation where he couldn't punish it. If he's off-stage or in the air he might not always be able to punish the lag but still has absolutely no problems dealing with the move.
It's very hard to edgeguard Sonic. All four of his specials can be used for recovery purposes, thus making his recovery very versatile and possibly hard to read. He gets good height and aerial control from his Up-b and can defend himself with aerials after using it, so it's very hard for Zelda punish him during his recovery. It's also good enough to allow him to go very far or very low to attack Zelda while she's in the startup of Farore's wind. Luckily the spring semi-spike usually doesn't hit her too far for FW to reach the stage, but it can put her into a bad recovery position.
Don't make unnecessary attacks. This goes for baiting, mindgaming and taunting: be very careful when attacking if you're not sure that it'll connect. Be especially careful with moves that have long cooldowns, such as NL. Sonic's fast enough to punish you from long distances away if you give him a chance and after that he can use his excellent speed to chase you around the stage.
Try to stay grounded. Zelda's F-smash, U-smash, jab and other ground moves can stop anything Sonic can do to approach if you can maintain your spacing and react fast enough (although this can be very hard at times). However, if and when Sonic eventually gets her in the air he can chase and juggle her very well.
Learn to avoid his finishers. You can either outrange, dodge or shield his F-smash. RAR:d Bair can be stopped with well-spaced smashes or shielded. Good DI and airdodges should help you get out of most of his *something to get you in the air* => spring => Uair/Bair shenanigans and clever recovery makes you less vulnerable to getting punished afterwards. If you can learn all this it becomes much harder for him to get kills and lets you live a lot longer.
I'll mention that, if you don't use Dtilt a lot, you should probably learn it for this matchup.
it's not an instant win technique by any stretch of the imagination, but it clanks with any grounded approach he could make and has low enough cooldown that it's not particularly punishable if he backs off instead of aproaching the whole way. If it DOES clank, it tends to place sonic in Zelda's bread-and-butter zone while leaving sonic at a range where he really lacks any reliable attacks against zelda, so he'll probably need to sheild an retreat if he can. You can't just spam Dtilt though, you actually do have to make some attempt to time it to stop an approach.
Also, keep in mind, it's easy to just jump over Dtilt, but if you can get sonic in a mindset where he feels like he needs to approach you from the air, then half of your battle is already won for you.
some points for consideration:
- Use Din's against sonic's recovery: he's going to make it back anyway and it should be fresh because GOD knows it's not going to work whilst he's grounded.
- pick a platformed stage: sonic is a reasonably sized target, but he moves to **** fast to hit him with your aerials often; platforms make connecting with aerials a lot easier.
- Zelda's priority and kill power massively outrank sonic here: try to get him to fight on standard terms instead of poking all match. This'll probably require getting a substantial damage lead or a stock lead early on; be willing to trade hits, chances are, you'll end up being better for it.
- The air favours sonic: just focus on landing if he gets you there, but, if the oportunity presents itself to maim him with a power aeiral, don't be afraid to take it; only his bair should be really scary at that range.
- PLAY SMART: Sonic excells at punishing you for mistakes, even from the other side of the stage. You're not going to want to take risks when you are ahead, and be sure not to play recklessly if you are behind either.
Shugo's about the only sonic I really ever play, and he's really tough, but he's more skilled than me in general, so that should be the case. I'd say Zelda has the advantage here, but it's definitely not larger than 60:40 and not smaller than 55:45.
It's 50:50 in my experience, who ever gains the early lead gains an advantage. Zelda can't safely approach Sonic yet Sonic can have trouble approaching himself. And they both punish each other well. The posts above has mentioned most of the match up really.
Sonic's Fsmash is bad lol, it comes out in like 18 frames.
Well, if anyone is intrested, heres the Sonic boards write up:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=190510&page=124
Nope, not even fully charge is safe. Its only safe from a shield grab from characters outside of the top 10 i think.Usually SOnics charge fsmash so its pretty safe on block cuz of the shield pushback and all that.
You can drop your shield then Ftilt him in the face.
Dont bother for the shieldgrab since you'll be too far.Like I said before, DK has a much easier time with this MU, but Zelda can do similar things. The idea is that while mindgamez are totally valid, at some point Sonic will try to hit you, usually using either side+b/down+b or an aerial approach of some sort. However, when shielded most if not all of these approaches are vulnerable to punishment. Punish side+b/down+b with uair/bair, and anything else with fsmash/grab/what have you (they usually land him close to you).
